German Student Killed in 'Castle Doctrine' Case

[JI7]

The father of a German exchange student shot dead in Montana after he trespassed in a man's garage has said the US cannot continue to "play cowboy" with firearms.

Markus Kaarma has been charged with deliberate murder in the Sunday killing of Diren Dede, 17, of Hamburg.

But he says Montana's self-defence law allowed him to shoot the boy.

Celal Dede said he would not have allowed his son to study in the US had he been aware of the lenient gun laws.

"I didn't think for one night that everyone here can kill somebody just because that person entered his back yard," Mr Dede told the German news agency dpa.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-27243115

[randys1]

1. Self defense laws in America legalize slaughter of innocents

so men who are really children can play with their guns

I wish the German army would invade Montana and beat the living shit out of the shooter

and i am not kidding

[Logical]

2. I have guns and have a conceal carry license, but for some of these assholes this stand your....

ground and castle doctrine is just a way for these paranoid gun owners to shoot someone legally.

[dilby]

3. Two people who lost their lives do to stupidity.

Hopefully the message will be there is nothing in your home worth losing your life over and that there is nothing in someone else's home worth losing your life over. Kid was baited in but he did take the bait and he should not have entered someones garage at night.

[TreasonousBastard]

4. Nobody claims to know what the kid was doing in the garage, but...

according to the article:

Mr Kaarma, a 29-year-old firefighter, has told investigators his home had twice been hit by burglars, and he told a hair stylist he had waited up at night to shoot intruders, prosecutors said.

On the night of the shooting, Mr Kaarma and his partner Janelle Pflager left their garage door open, and Ms Pflager left her purse in the garage in order to bait intruders, she told police.

They set up motion sensors and a video monitor, prosecutors said.

When the sensors went off just after midnight and they saw a man on the monitor screen, Mr Kaarma went outside and fired a shotgun into the garage without warning several times.

I have little sympathy for burglars, but far less for bloodthirsty scumbags.

[GeorgeGist]

24. In Little Falls MN ...

it will get you convicted of premeditated murder. And rightfully so.

[The Straight Story]

5. So, he was charged with murder?

You can use any defense you want that doesn't mean the actual ideas behind the defense you are using are wrong.

"The state allows residents to protect their homes with deadly force when they believe they are going to be harmed, said his lawyer, Paul Ryan."

I don't have a problem with that idea.

[TreasonousBastard]

6. The key word is "harmed"...

presumably bodily injury.

Some might believe the theft of a handbag is harm enough to require the death of miscreant. Just some.

[The Straight Story]

7. Indeed, and those some will be, as here, charged (nt)

[dionysus]

8. yeah but he had the drop on the guy, he set him up and laid in wait... there was no

reason to just start blasting; he was armed and not in danger.

it'd be like putting my valuables in the driveway, then going upstairs and aiming a rifle out of the window, waiting to shoot anyone that comes to grab them. it's the same thing that douchebag did who lured those idiot kids into his basement and murdered them!

[The Straight Story]

9. I agree and he should be charged

He was not in any imminent danger and was not defending was on the offensive.

But I support the right of people to defend themselves in their home when they are in danger. Seems common sense to me and not even sure why we need a law to codify that.

[dionysus]

15. i agree people have the right to defend their homes but it doesn't mean you can set ppl up like

that.

nor is having a gun in the house a failsafe means of protection.

if someone broke into my place, the last thing I'd do is try to confront them unless absolutely needed. I'd arm myself if I had the time to, but even if I was able to grab a gun or knife, I wouldn't go seeking out the bastards. "staying alive" > "shootin' me an intruder".

my old roommate is one of those trigger happy gun folks. he's got his .45 right in his nightstand, ammo stashed around the house, and always talks tough about what he'd do if one of "them" broke into his house.

sounds scary, right? anyone breaking in is gonna get it for sure, eh?

but the sad reality is he'd be passed out cold, drunk off his ass. the thief is more likely to get a drop on him, than he is getting a drop on anyone breaking in... they'd probably be able to empty his entire house without even waking him up.

[The Straight Story]

16. Agree

Setting people up is not defending yourself.

My friend was home when three guys broke in, robbed him, tied him up, shot him, and burned his house down.

I generally think people breaking into your home are dangerous and not out to simply come in and have some coffee /donuts to discuss politics

[dionysus]

17. that's terrible. the way i see it is, if someone kicked my door down while i was sleeping and knew

where I was upstairs, I doubt I'd be able to grab a piece, unlock it, load it, and get my contacts in before they got to me...

you'd almost have to have a loaded gun within reach at all times, but there's no way in hell I'm leaving a loaded weapon around... just too dangerous. i'll go with the odds of not getting robbed like that.

[The Straight Story]

18. Understand that thought. My old boss kept a loaded pistol on him at work

And two loaded shot guns near his desk.

We sold/made reloading dies. Had two rottweilers who lived in the office as well (one was named Tank, I used to have to walk him and such). Other half of the building was his wife's business, military surplus. A lot of militia guys would come and hang out there.

No one ever tried to rob that place

I don't currently own a gun but keep a few things at hand as I live in a dangerous hood.

[upaloopa]

13. The shooter wasn't going to be harmed

[Jenoch]

10. I do not believe the Castle Doctrine will work as a defense in this case.

This incident is similar to the case in Minnesota in which the homeowner who shot and killed two teens was convicted of first degree murder.

[951-Riverside]

23. Exactly, this is clearly not a Castle Doctrine case

What he did is called "lying in wait" and "premeditated murder".

1. He set a trap
2. He waited
3. Once the guy entered, he opened fired into the garage without saying a word

he told a hair stylist he had waited up at night to shoot intruders, prosecutors said.

On the night of the shooting, Mr Kaarma and his partner Janelle Pflager left their garage door open, and Ms Pflager left her purse in the garage in order to bait intruders, she told police.

When the sensors went off just after midnight and they saw a man on the monitor screen, Mr Kaarma went outside and fired a shotgun into the garage without warning several times.

Its not like he waited there, told the guy to get his hands up and he had no choice but to defend himself when the guy went for his gun. No, this a**hole just started blasting away once the poor guy entered.

[upaloopa]

11. Guns don't kill people gunners kill people

If the owner did not own a gun the victim would be alive.
Now a gunner may have the right and the ability to shoot someone in their yard but do they have to shoot them?
Combine gun nut with gun and no heart and you got someone who kills because he can.
That is a tragic result of our insane gun culture.

[dionysus]

19. that's the type of gun owner that scares me; the ones who talk tough about what they'd do if someone

broke in, how deadly and Rambo-like they would be. it almost sounds like they're fantasizing about right to legally kill somebody.

they're far more likely to shoot their spouse, kids, or themselves by accident than save themselves from armed intruders.

[951-Riverside]

12. This is not a 'Castle Doctrine' Case, its murder.

On the night of the shooting, Mr Kaarma and his partner Janelle Pflager left their garage door open, and Ms Pflager left her purse in the garage in order to bait intruders, she told police.

They set up motion sensors and a video monitor, prosecutors said.

When the sensors went off just after midnight and they saw a man on the monitor screen, Mr Kaarma went outside and fired a shotgun into the garage without warning several times.

What a coward! He didnt bother to say anything before blasting away.

This is without a doubt a clear cut case of murder and should be tried as such.

I have no problem with people having guns to defend their homes, I do have a problem with people thinking stand your ground and the castle doctrine means they can blow anyone away for simply stepping foot on their property. Guns should be a tool of last resort, not the first option. Gun toting jackasses like this guy, Byron Smith, George Zimmerman, Pete Tavita Solomona and Margie Rhea Ramey should rot in prison.

Guns should be reserved for use against violent criminal dirtbags like Shawn Custis, not kids who would give up the moment you told them to put their hands up.

[Blue_Tires]

14. I got constantly criticized last year for pointing it out

but it is *VERY* easy to "bait" anyone into a 'Castle Doctrine/SYG' death and juries almost always give a pass to even the most flagrant and obvious bait cases...

Luckily the victim is white, so at least there will be a little outrage over this one and the media won't be harping on "hooded sweatshirts"

[JI7]

20. he was german but had some turkish descent

[moondust]

21. Reminds me of this one:

Yoshihiro Hattori was a Japanese exchange student residing in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, United States, at the time of his death (in 1992). Hattori was on his way to a Halloween party and went to the wrong house by accident. The property owner, Rodney Peairs, shot and killed Hattori, thinking he was trespassing with criminal intent. The controversial homicide, and Peairs's subsequent acquittal in the state court of Louisiana, received worldwide attention.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Yoshihiro_Hattori

[951-Riverside]

22. This too:

Oct. 19, 1999 11:03 AM ET

BUENA PARK, Calif. (AP) _ A 17-year-old was shot to death after he apparently stole a Halloween pumpkin from a front yard as a prank.

The boy was found shot in the head Monday inside his car and died early today at a hospital, police Sgt. Robert Mote said. His name was not released.

Pete Tavita Solomona, 47, was arrested for investigation of assault with intent to commit murder. With the boy's death, he could face a murder charge, Mote said.

http://www.apnewsarchive.com/1999/Alleged-Pumpkin-Theft-Ends-in-Death/id-a0a198b93f531fc9b5ee9bf73305f6a4

This guy was only sentenced to 6 years in prison and I think he's worked for a municipality southern california since 2009.