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The Straight Story

(48,121 posts)
Sat May 3, 2014, 07:58 PM May 2014

If It’s OK For Women To Propose, Why Don’t They?


...

Go to any wedding celebration this nuptial season, whether in a ballroom or backyard or church basement, and it’s a good bet you can trace the big day to a similar start, with different flourishes.

If a man is marrying a woman somewhere in America, odds are that he proposed to her.

That may seem obvious, but consider this: Three-fourths of Americans say it would be fine for the woman to do the proposing, in theory.

In practice, only about 5 percent of those currently married say the woman proposed, and the figure is no higher among couples wed within the past 10 years. Attitudes actually seem to be trending the other way, an Associated Press-WE tv poll shows.

Young adults are more likely than their elders to consider it “unacceptable” for a woman to do the asking. More than one-third of those under age 30 disapprove.

http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2014/05/03/if-its-ok-for-women-to-propose-why-dont-they/
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If It’s OK For Women To Propose, Why Don’t They? (Original Post) The Straight Story May 2014 OP
There are a lot of stupid traditions and stereotypes we have left to overcome. Oakenshield May 2014 #1
Marriage is one of them...nt Jesus Malverde May 2014 #6
+1 Major Nikon May 2014 #9
+1 million Louisiana1976 May 2014 #27
And I bet you don't have a happy marriage. joeglow3 May 2014 #34
You make many assumptions Jesus Malverde May 2014 #39
Not an assumption. joeglow3 May 2014 #87
Your a gambler...eh? Jesus Malverde May 2014 #89
It has to do with the engagement ring yeoman6987 May 2014 #79
They would have to buy their own diamond engagement ring oneofthe99 May 2014 #2
The whole diamond engagement ring started as a marketing ploy for Debeers alarimer May 2014 #88
They do. Flying Squirrel May 2014 #3
Subtle Hints Like Becoming "Accidently" Pregnant left on green only May 2014 #4
Well... Flying Squirrel May 2014 #5
Or making wedding plans JVS May 2014 #11
Not necessarily although that usually works malaise May 2014 #12
Yes, that's the way women propose etherealtruth May 2014 #21
Well that was insulting theHandpuppet May 2014 #28
Why was it insulting? malaise May 2014 #33
Of course lots of women deliberately get pregnant. boston bean May 2014 #46
Many do n/t malaise May 2014 #48
Many do what? I made a few statements. boston bean May 2014 #49
Many women deliberately get pregnant to get their boyfriends to marry them malaise May 2014 #52
If a man does not want to be a husband or a father, he has choices as well. boston bean May 2014 #53
Oh? Would you say the same to women who get pregnant and want an abortion? The Straight Story May 2014 #57
No, I would not. boston bean May 2014 #77
The difference is, paying child support doesn't carry the risk of death or permanent damage. moriah May 2014 #93
This message was self-deleted by its author davidn3600 May 2014 #64
What century are you in? BainsBane May 2014 #94
What constitutes "many" in your eyes? Gravitycollapse May 2014 #55
Not sure what they see as many, but around here The Straight Story May 2014 #66
Ah, yes UtahLib May 2014 #35
It's all the hussies fault, can't you see! <sarcasm> boston bean May 2014 #47
Yeah, she made him do it. (sarcasm) nt UtahLib May 2014 #50
Yeah, women propose by entrapment theHandpuppet May 2014 #59
And Eve stuffed that apple down innocent little Adam's protesting throat. UtahLib May 2014 #62
Not funny or even accurate. This kind of passive aggressive anti-womanism has no place on DU. Gravitycollapse May 2014 #38
The post that will spawn a thousand posts. Damansarajaya May 2014 #83
"Dude, just don't go there . . . especially here." less than a month and you are so familiar with du seabeyond May 2014 #92
I'm saying DON'T jump into the gender battles. Damansarajaya May 2014 #96
One of my friends' had a GF who took a job and moved 500 miles to follow him to where he was going.. JVS May 2014 #15
This post is a stupid stereotype of women and doesn't belong on DU. Gravitycollapse May 2014 #37
Really? Flying Squirrel May 2014 #60
So you use your one personal experience to say a "significant" percentage of women do it. Gravitycollapse May 2014 #63
Well I must say I understand your remarks here....but The Straight Story May 2014 #65
I really think you need to re-read everything that was actually said Flying Squirrel May 2014 #70
both directly referring to the same thing, appear to be at odds with one another... LanternWaste May 2014 #98
Not really, especially here on DU - it works well The Straight Story May 2014 #100
Two different things. Reading comprehension is clearly a problem here. Flying Squirrel May 2014 #101
Not in this town. Women want the baby, but they don't feel they need the man. DebJ May 2014 #67
It would be awkward and weird... 951-Riverside May 2014 #7
This thread would need a lot of popcorn if people felt comfortable speaking openly on the topic. JVS May 2014 #8
I remember back when my first wife and I were going out The Straight Story May 2014 #13
Ahh, you nutty head-in-the-clouds romantic... Arugula Latte May 2014 #84
Thumbs up for honest discussion. Puzzledtraveller May 2014 #44
Just like men pay for the date and women take the man's name davidn3600 May 2014 #10
except for the ring, I don't know a single person who followed any of those traditions, LOL. bettyellen May 2014 #20
You dont know a single woman who changed her last name after getting married? davidn3600 May 2014 #22
oh hells no, they all work and would like to keep their good names. One friend hyphenates.... the bettyellen May 2014 #23
I will say, one who proposed (and proposed and explained what good marriages were like and proposed bettyellen May 2014 #24
According to this writer in the Guardian, 90% of women change their surnames davidn3600 May 2014 #30
I am 45 and do not know a single woman yeoman6987 May 2014 #80
I actually took a lot of guff for taking my husband's name when we married. WillowTree May 2014 #86
you are right; women who consider themselves to be very "liberated," for lack of a better TheFrenchRazor May 2014 #74
I proposed to my Husband.. HipChick May 2014 #14
I proposed to my husband. Habibi May 2014 #16
We just decided to get married- no proposal involved. canoeist52 May 2014 #17
Jinx!!! Habibi May 2014 #18
Yep canoeist52 May 2014 #19
Because they're told from the time they're babies wickerwoman May 2014 #25
I would say that that is a keen observation (nt) The Straight Story May 2014 #26
And the current under-30 crowd has grown up under regressive gender stereotypes. intheflow May 2014 #32
Historically, Disney is possibly the biggest offender of this davidn3600 May 2014 #40
Yes, but it could be somewhat excused pre-1960s America intheflow May 2014 #45
this is nothing new; unfortunately every generation of young women goes through the same progression TheFrenchRazor May 2014 #75
And it's so hard to fight. Codeine May 2014 #85
I don't buy it hfojvt May 2014 #41
What an amazing insight wickerwoman May 2014 #56
Nailed it treestar May 2014 #54
So they can say you are the one that begged me to marry you n/t doc03 May 2014 #29
With me, there was no formal proposal. MadrasT May 2014 #31
Donna proposed to me. hobbit709 May 2014 #36
People like to have their cake and eat it too. Puzzledtraveller May 2014 #42
hypothetically relationships can be free of gender roles norms La Lioness Priyanka May 2014 #43
Neither one should propose Courtesy Flush May 2014 #51
Good point! n/t DebJ May 2014 #68
Tradionately, marriage is something Go Vols May 2014 #58
Men decide to propose about half the time, in my opinion. pnwmom May 2014 #61
Weddings seem to be one of those things completely drenched in tradition. n/t DebJ May 2014 #69
Why women will never propose to men davidn3600 May 2014 #71
I did. Married 2x, proposed to my first cali May 2014 #72
"Let's get married", I said HockeyMom May 2014 #76
the reality is that straight men and women are very attached to their gender roles; it doesn't TheFrenchRazor May 2014 #73
Back when I was in the Navy I had a lot of girls overseas proposing to me. B Calm May 2014 #78
They do. MineralMan May 2014 #81
Oh God where is the romance? trublu992 May 2014 #82
Your post's last two sentences answer your question. WinkyDink May 2014 #90
Because... LWolf May 2014 #91
i proposed to my husband Scout May 2014 #95
Because they like the tradition of man asking woman MO_Moderate May 2014 #97
LOL! I could have a field day with this one; but it would get real ugly down the road. nt Zorra May 2014 #99
 

yeoman6987

(14,449 posts)
79. It has to do with the engagement ring
Sun May 4, 2014, 08:51 AM
May 2014

Would woman be willing to buy their own if they do the asking?

alarimer

(16,245 posts)
88. The whole diamond engagement ring started as a marketing ploy for Debeers
Sun May 4, 2014, 10:59 PM
May 2014

They needed to create a market for their diamonds. Hence, engagement rings (and other rings). It is not a longstanding tradition at any rate.

malaise

(268,930 posts)
12. Not necessarily although that usually works
Sat May 3, 2014, 08:29 PM
May 2014

More than a few women give their partners hot sex and then stopped feigning guilt blah blah blah and say no more until we're married. Apparently that really works.

etherealtruth

(22,165 posts)
21. Yes, that's the way women propose
Sat May 3, 2014, 08:41 PM
May 2014

What a completely asinine post ... intentionally impregnating women is the way men propose, too (if one wants to call it that)

Except it is not in either case ... manipulation (by either sex is not a proposal).

Its really heartening to see that the tone toward women has improved here

boston bean

(36,221 posts)
46. Of course lots of women deliberately get pregnant.
Sat May 3, 2014, 11:19 PM
May 2014

Some get pregnant by way of some accident.

However, most women don't trap men into marriage by getting pregnant.

malaise

(268,930 posts)
52. Many women deliberately get pregnant to get their boyfriends to marry them
Sat May 3, 2014, 11:34 PM
May 2014

On the other hand there are many accidental pregnancies.
It takes two to get pregnant so I'm not blaming the women but as a woman I'm facing facts. There are many women decide that their boyfriend is taking too long to propose and use the pregnancy option to move things along.

boston bean

(36,221 posts)
53. If a man does not want to be a husband or a father, he has choices as well.
Sat May 3, 2014, 11:42 PM
May 2014

He can wear a condom, get a vasectomy or abstain.

So, no they aren't trapped. They partake in an activity that's main biological purpose is to create a baby.

The Straight Story

(48,121 posts)
57. Oh? Would you say the same to women who get pregnant and want an abortion?
Sun May 4, 2014, 12:47 AM
May 2014

Because what you said sounds an awful lot like what the right wing says about women and abortions:

"She could abstain from sex, use birth control, etc - don't want to get pregnant don't have sex"

If a woman gets accidentally pregnant even after precautions she has choices. If she keeps the child the man has limited choices (ie, pay support or go to jail). And yet, time after time, I hear from some women on the left the same argument they say is crap when it comes from the right "Don't want a baby, keep it in your pants".

boston bean

(36,221 posts)
77. No, I would not.
Sun May 4, 2014, 07:24 AM
May 2014

It's no god damned mans or anyone's decision as to what a woman does with her body or choices she makes regarding it, go it?

Difference here is men don't get pregnant, see. But they can practice birth control and if they have sex without a condom, or some other form of contraception if they don't want to make a woman pregnant, that is choice... Because they don't, doesn't mean they get to decide what a woman does with her body.

moriah

(8,311 posts)
93. The difference is, paying child support doesn't carry the risk of death or permanent damage.
Mon May 5, 2014, 08:27 AM
May 2014

Sure, obstetrics has gotten a hell of a lot better even in my lifetime, but my mother nearly died having me.

Response to boston bean (Reply #53)

BainsBane

(53,031 posts)
94. What century are you in?
Mon May 5, 2014, 08:55 AM
May 2014

I'm 52 years old, and at no point in my life have people had to get married because of pregnancy. The only thing pregnancy forces the man to do is pay child support. Additionally, if a man doesn't want a child at all, he can take responsibility for birth control. Your post is ridiculous on multiple levels: it shows no awareness of the modern world; it reflects a view of women as manipulative and dishonest; and it imagines men to be bumbling fools with no ability to make their own life decisions. None of those are true.

There is nothing remotely factual about your post.

The Straight Story

(48,121 posts)
66. Not sure what they see as many, but around here
Sun May 4, 2014, 01:57 AM
May 2014

Anything up to or less than one percent is usually enough to judge an entire group of people.

UtahLib

(3,179 posts)
35. Ah, yes
Sat May 3, 2014, 10:20 PM
May 2014

She tricked the poor naive little fellow. Surely, you're not suggesting the man can't be expected to worry about such things and that birth control is exclusively the woman's responsibility?

boston bean

(36,221 posts)
47. It's all the hussies fault, can't you see! <sarcasm>
Sat May 3, 2014, 11:20 PM
May 2014

And she couldn't get a man any other way, so she tricked him and got pregnant all by her lonesome self.

theHandpuppet

(19,964 posts)
59. Yeah, women propose by entrapment
Sun May 4, 2014, 01:29 AM
May 2014

At heart we know they're all manipulative little schemers whose goal in life is to trick men with sex. I know this because I read the same BS in Genesis.

UtahLib

(3,179 posts)
62. And Eve stuffed that apple down innocent little Adam's protesting throat.
Sun May 4, 2014, 01:43 AM
May 2014

I rejected that crap a long time ago but it seems we will never be allowed to forget it.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
92. "Dude, just don't go there . . . especially here." less than a month and you are so familiar with du
Mon May 5, 2014, 08:16 AM
May 2014

to comfortably jump in the gender battles?

 

Damansarajaya

(625 posts)
96. I'm saying DON'T jump into the gender battles.
Mon May 5, 2014, 12:38 PM
May 2014

Comfortable is the exact opposite of what I am when it comes to people arguing with people on this site.

BTW, I've been here almost two months, plenty of time to see who the vociferous folks are that stir up "issues" among posters.

JVS

(61,935 posts)
15. One of my friends' had a GF who took a job and moved 500 miles to follow him to where he was going..
Sat May 3, 2014, 08:32 PM
May 2014

to business school. One day we were hanging around and he received a call on his cell phone. He left the room, talked to her for about 20 minutes, came back and said "Well, she's beginning to freak out about how she's moved out here for me and all that, so I guess I'd better propose next weekend. Wish me luck" Their conversation must have involved a lot of subtle hinting.

 

Flying Squirrel

(3,041 posts)
60. Really?
Sun May 4, 2014, 01:29 AM
May 2014

It certainly has generated a lot of response, but I think the bigger response was generated from the response to my response, which I'm kinda surprised wasn't hidden (the "getting pregnant" one.)

I didn't really think what I said was a stereotype, I was just going on personal experience. If anything, I thought my remark was pretty tame compared to the "They get pregnant" one - especially since I actually did have the experience of a woman specifically deceiving me by leaving a packet of birth control pills out on the kitchen counter and throwing one away every day - she eventually confessed to me after getting pregnant. I used a condom once and she became very suspicious so hey, what can ya do? It was my first relationship, I wasn't smart enough to just get out of it. Life's a bitch, but I got a wonderful daughter out of the deal (her mom moved out of state, go figure, so I got to be a single dad which was fine by me) and I certainly didn't become a woman-hater because of it and I didn't even mention it here till 'left on green only' did.

I do my best not to say or think stereotypical things, and in this case I thought I was just saying what usually does happen. Obviously not with every woman, but with a very significant percentage based on my own experience. And even if it really is stereotypical, so what? There's nothing negative about dropping hints IMO. Just two different approaches to the same situation.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
63. So you use your one personal experience to say a "significant" percentage of women do it.
Sun May 4, 2014, 01:44 AM
May 2014

If this were an academic study and you were a professor you'd probably be fired and your career ruined.

One experience does not a scholar make.

But this isn't just about what you said but also about why you said it. It isn't just that you use one experience to make sweeping claims about the lives of others. I'm sure you don't in most occasions and are even possibly determined not to ever do so others. The issue here is how easy it was for you to take one bad experience with a woman and turn it into a stereotype.

The Straight Story

(48,121 posts)
65. Well I must say I understand your remarks here....but
Sun May 4, 2014, 01:55 AM
May 2014

This is DU and even though a progressive site in general we do exactly the same thing here day in and day out.

Most people believe gun owners are a bunch of shoot em up cowboys out to kill everyone. When less than one percent even use their guns in a criminal way.

Over two billion Christians in this world but we sure don't have an issue with using the worst of them to label the rest of them.

"The issue here is how easy it was for you to take one bad experience with a woman and turn it into a stereotype."

Understand that. See the same thing myself when it comes to people and their interactions with straight/white/men - we are all just sex hungry, power hungry, jerks who hate women...or something like that. I even have folks who just know what my motivations are when I do something (I don't do x out of the kindness of my heart - it is because I think women are weak, want them sexually, etc - people don't even know me personally but judge me based on others they do know).

Biases and stereotypes seem to be the norm even around here and when you bring it up or complain about it you usually hear 'oh, you poor little white male victim, what do you have to complain about' and such.



 

Flying Squirrel

(3,041 posts)
70. I really think you need to re-read everything that was actually said
Sun May 4, 2014, 02:24 AM
May 2014

and not what you seem to be ascribing to me.

-----

The OP was:

The Straight Story (47,552 posts)

If It’s OK For Women To Propose, Why Don’t They?
[View all]


My response to the OP:

[div class ="excerpt"]Flying Squirrel (1,419 posts)

3. They do.


They just don't do it in a direct "Will you marry me?" way, they send subtle hints instead.
That was me. Saying that women are more likely to send subtle hints about marriage than to ask directly. Perhaps slightly stereotypical, but not IMO in a negative way - this is the post I'm talking about when I say "based on my experience."


left on green only (1,312 posts)

4. Subtle Hints Like Becoming "Accidently" Pregnant



NOT my post, someone else's post, which I completely disagree with (enough so that I in fact alerted on it myself, and found that it had already been alerted on with a 3-4 result).


Flying Squirrel (1,419 posts)

5. Well...


That did work on me. Not a good first marriage..

My post, simply stating my own personal experience but not stating or implying that this was a common thing - just that it did in fact happen to me, which means it's more common than winning the lottery 'cause god knows that's never gonna happen.

In other words, you're saying that I said women in general often trap men into marriage via pregnancy -- something I NEVER said or implied. In fact I think it's pretty rare because otherwise I would not have been so shocked when it happened to me.

I don't really want to argue with you but I don't like someone misconstruing my words outright, which is what is happening here.

I probably shouldn't have even responded to his post, but that just because I did respond to it and acknowledged that what he was saying actually did happen to me, does not mean I liked his post or agreed with it, or thought that my single experience was any kind of an indication that this was a common thing.
 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
98. both directly referring to the same thing, appear to be at odds with one another...
Mon May 5, 2014, 02:08 PM
May 2014

"...and in this case I thought I was just saying what usually does happen."

"...but not stating or implying that this was a common thing."


These two statements, both directly referring to the same thing, appear to be at odds with one another.

The Straight Story

(48,121 posts)
100. Not really, especially here on DU - it works well
Mon May 5, 2014, 02:16 PM
May 2014

Examples:

1:
"Man shoots dog"
replies go like: This happens all the time. These gun owners kill people every day. Shootings are so common no one cares.

"how many people are doing this"
Out of over 50 million gun owners less than a percent. But, since less than one is > 365 and we can report a news story a day on it, it is common.

2:
"Billy Joe was in the store today and saw a person using food stamps for steak and drove a nice car home"
replies (on say a rw board): "See vern, I done told ya they all was just lazy people who are milking the system. That billy joe uses up all his welfare money on drugs!"

"Let's drug test welfare recipients in Florida"
Oh hey, only a little over 1% tested positive. See we told you it was wrong to stereotype othe....wait a second. Oh well, it is wrong to stereotype when we don't like it.

 

Flying Squirrel

(3,041 posts)
101. Two different things. Reading comprehension is clearly a problem here.
Mon May 5, 2014, 05:01 PM
May 2014

Two separate things.

Thing 1 - women more likely to hint at marriage than to ask directly

Thing 2 - some women will attempt to entrap a man via pregnancy.

Two extremely different things. Yet somehow when I explain that I was saying I believe Thing 1 is common and Thing 2 is uncommon, people cannot comprehend that I am speaking of two completely different things and accuse me of contradicting myself.

Reading comprehension is the problem here, and my words were very clear so I will not accept the blame for the fact that some people have difficulty comprehending what should be very clear.

DebJ

(7,699 posts)
67. Not in this town. Women want the baby, but they don't feel they need the man.
Sun May 4, 2014, 02:03 AM
May 2014

Lots and lots of single parents here.

No entrapment.

And just because you became a father doesn't mean you have to marry the mother.
Not in today's world. Whose holding the shotgun to your head?

 

951-Riverside

(7,234 posts)
7. It would be awkward and weird...
Sat May 3, 2014, 08:22 PM
May 2014

If a woman proposed to me, I don't even like women taking me out of lunch or dinner unless I'm paying for it but that's my choice. If a couple truly loved each other, it doesn't matter who proposes. Quite honestly its none of my damn business and I'd tell anyone throwing a fit over it to mind theirs.

JVS

(61,935 posts)
8. This thread would need a lot of popcorn if people felt comfortable speaking openly on the topic.
Sat May 3, 2014, 08:25 PM
May 2014

But I doubt it will come to that.

I'm just going to say a few things.

1. Breaking this convention is like carpooling. It's the kind of thing that people say is a good idea, but really mean that it's a good idea for someone else to do it. Kind of a "It's fine to propose to a man, but if my boyfriend doesn't propose to me that means that he's too chickenshit/ clueless/ not in touch with our relationship/ stringing me along/ not interested (circle whichever conditions apply) and it's not meant to be" line of reasoning.

2. I've seen a few instances (especially around the Nov-Dec holiday season) where women and their families start expecting a proposal and the relationship ends shortly after new years when the proposal has not been made.

3. Weddings are often ostentatious displays that are used to create a narrative and the start of a good wedding is a good (or at least inoffensive) back story. As someone who has sat at the table chatting with the elderly distant relatives of friends and been asked about remembering the beginning of the couple being together there are a lot of times where a polite fiction is far better received than telling them about how their great grand niece practically lived in your dorm the month after she met the groom.

The Straight Story

(48,121 posts)
13. I remember back when my first wife and I were going out
Sat May 3, 2014, 08:30 PM
May 2014

I turned to her in the car and said "Well. I am not seeing anyone else, and you aren't either. Does this mean we are going together?" she agreed that it made sense.

On the way home from a relative's house after Christmas I said "Since neither of us plan on seeing anyone else and we love each other we might as well get married." She agreed again and we set the date.

Seemed simple enough to me.

Puzzledtraveller

(5,937 posts)
44. Thumbs up for honest discussion.
Sat May 3, 2014, 10:57 PM
May 2014


I'll be uncouth here. Many women like to have their cake and eat it too.
 

davidn3600

(6,342 posts)
10. Just like men pay for the date and women take the man's name
Sat May 3, 2014, 08:26 PM
May 2014

Or how the man is expected to ask the woman's father for permission to marry his daughter...

Or the woman gets a diamond ring...

Old traditions die hard.

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
20. except for the ring, I don't know a single person who followed any of those traditions, LOL.
Sat May 3, 2014, 08:39 PM
May 2014

not a one. Out of half a dozen married couples I know, 2/3 of the women proposed. 1/6 asked the father, LOL, because he was told the dad would like that.
Someday, where ever it is you live will have shed these regressive customs like the larger American cities have already been doing. Women ain't got time for that shit anymore, LOL.

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
23. oh hells no, they all work and would like to keep their good names. One friend hyphenates.... the
Sat May 3, 2014, 08:54 PM
May 2014

last person I knew that took her husbands name (maybe 15 years ago) was an acquaintance who married a filthy rich Soros. I am sure she finds that last name really useful, but usually it is considered a liability if you're actually building a career.

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
24. I will say, one who proposed (and proposed and explained what good marriages were like and proposed
Sat May 3, 2014, 09:07 PM
May 2014

again until he said yes) tells a completely fabricated story about how one weekend "he just knew she was the one" and makes it sound like it was all his idea.

But she is a PR maven and needed a romantic story to get an profile in a very very well known publication. Strangely enough, she is one of the biggest radical feminist I know, but a deeply pragmatic person- she knew getting in that publication would be great for her business, and it was. I knew her story was BS but I had no idea that they went through six months of discussions because the dude had a rough first marriage, and never wanted to get married again. Publishers like those simple syrupy stories, even if they are bullshit.

 

davidn3600

(6,342 posts)
30. According to this writer in the Guardian, 90% of women change their surnames
Sat May 3, 2014, 09:51 PM
May 2014
Excuse me while I play the cranky feminist for a minute, but I'm disheartened every time I sign into Facebook and see a list of female names I don't recognize. You got married, congratulations! But why, in 2013, does getting married mean giving up the most basic marker of your identity? And if family unity is so important, why don't men ever change their names?

On one level, I get it: people are really hard on married women who don't change their names. Ten percent of the American public still thinks that keeping your name means you aren't dedicated to your marriage. And a full 50% of Americans think you should be legally required to take your husband's name. Somewhere upwards of 90% of women do change their names when they get married. I understand, given the social judgment of a sexist culture, why some women would decide that a name change is the path of least resistance.

But that's not what you usually hear. Instead, the defense of the name change is something like, "We want our family to share a name" or "His last name was better" or "My last name was just my dad's anyway" – all reasons that make no sense. If your last name is really your dad's, then no one, including your dad, has a last name that's actually theirs.

It may be the case that in your marriage, he did have a better last name. But if that's really a gender-neutral reason for a name change, you'd think that men with unfortunate last names would change theirs as often as women do. Given that men almost never change their names upon marriage, either there's something weird going on where it just so happens that women got all of the bad last names, or "I changed my name because his is better" is just a convenient and ultimately unconvincing excuse.


http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/mar/07/women-stop-changing-your-name-when-married
 

yeoman6987

(14,449 posts)
80. I am 45 and do not know a single woman
Sun May 4, 2014, 09:04 AM
May 2014

Who kept their name. All my high school and even Navy friends changed their names to the husband.

WillowTree

(5,325 posts)
86. I actually took a lot of guff for taking my husband's name when we married.
Sun May 4, 2014, 08:42 PM
May 2014

Many of us who do or did, do so I think because we're thinking about having children and find it much less complicated if everyone in the family has the same surname. I know that was part of the reason why I did.

No one, however, said a word when I changed it back when we divorced. Truth be told, the main reason I did is that I much prefer my signature with my maiden name. Nothing more complicated or noteworthy than that.

 

TheFrenchRazor

(2,116 posts)
74. you are right; women who consider themselves to be very "liberated," for lack of a better
Sun May 4, 2014, 04:37 AM
May 2014

word, don't think twice about taking their husband's last name, when of course hell would have to freeze over before he would take her last name. unfortunately, straight men and women are both very concerned about adhering to their respective gender roles, for better or worse.

Habibi

(3,598 posts)
16. I proposed to my husband.
Sat May 3, 2014, 08:34 PM
May 2014

The conversation went like this:

Me: "I'd like for us to get married."
Him: "Me, too."

No "ring". No engagement party, no bridal shower, no bachelor party, none of that stuff. We decided the time was right. We had a BBQ party in our backyard with 50 of our closest relatives and friends. Great food, belly-dancer friends who provided entertainment, small town judge. It'll be ten years this August.

Of course, we were both 46 at the time, and this was a first marriage for both of us. We just weren't into the pageantry or traditions. Neither of us thought it was weird that I was the one to bring it up.

canoeist52

(2,282 posts)
17. We just decided to get married- no proposal involved.
Sat May 3, 2014, 08:34 PM
May 2014

And we've continued to make mutual decisions for 31 years now.

wickerwoman

(5,662 posts)
25. Because they're told from the time they're babies
Sat May 3, 2014, 09:08 PM
May 2014

that proposing to a man smacks of desperation and that if they were really worth being proposed to, the man would do it.

Even if their parents are quite liberal, the dominant culture reinforces this over and over again. Nothing on TV or in the movies shows them how to propose to a man or gives them the right words for it.

intheflow

(28,462 posts)
32. And the current under-30 crowd has grown up under regressive gender stereotypes.
Sat May 3, 2014, 10:11 PM
May 2014

Strict splits in toys, for instance. Only pink stuff for girls, even if it's the exact same toy as for boys (colored blue or black or cammo). Girls are supposed to identify with princesses, not princes - and who sweeps who off the other's feet in movies? Princes obviously do the wooing, princesses are generally passive recipients. Even when you have strong princesses like Fiona in Shrek, the marketing campaigns for toys and other merchandise never show her in her ogre form, and sometimes even make her idealized human form extra-girly (surrounded by pink flowers, maybe). This younger generation has been conditioned to believe men must take the lead in romance.

intheflow

(28,462 posts)
45. Yes, but it could be somewhat excused pre-1960s America
Sat May 3, 2014, 11:16 PM
May 2014

since woman had barely had the right to even vote before then. We had about two decades of mostly gender-free marketing for children, but it's gotten way bad again since the Reagan era.

 

TheFrenchRazor

(2,116 posts)
75. this is nothing new; unfortunately every generation of young women goes through the same progression
Sun May 4, 2014, 04:44 AM
May 2014

when they're young they don't see the sexism; they either think "that's just the way things are," or they believe that sexism is all a thing of the past and won't affect them. it's only after they've been around for a while that they start seeing the patterns and putting two and two together. this "two steps forward and one step back" situation slows down women's progress greatly.

 

Codeine

(25,586 posts)
85. And it's so hard to fight.
Sun May 4, 2014, 06:46 PM
May 2014

My daughter loves those stupid Legos for girls even though they're the polar opposite of the normal creative Lego toys. I didn't teach her girls toys were supposed to be pastels and puppies, and her mom didn't either. It truly frustrates me.

hfojvt

(37,573 posts)
41. I don't buy it
Sat May 3, 2014, 10:40 PM
May 2014

I would say that the current arrangement really works to their advantage and that that is why they are in no hurry to change it.

wickerwoman

(5,662 posts)
56. What an amazing insight
Sun May 4, 2014, 12:42 AM
May 2014

into the female hive mind you have.

We've been discovered ladies. Time to switch to a new frequency.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
54. Nailed it
Sat May 3, 2014, 11:53 PM
May 2014

Evan asking them out shows that. Even being the first to show interest. It's to keep their right to be the choosers. While we are the product chosen from

MadrasT

(7,237 posts)
31. With me, there was no formal proposal.
Sat May 3, 2014, 10:08 PM
May 2014

We just decided to get married... after I made it known I was in favor of the idea. If I had kept my mouth shut, it likely never would have happened. So it was me who proposed the idea, anyway.

Courtesy Flush

(4,558 posts)
51. Neither one should propose
Sat May 3, 2014, 11:30 PM
May 2014

Last edited Sun May 4, 2014, 12:17 AM - Edit history (1)

(disclaimer: I did propose to my wife)

A marriage proposal, no matter which person initiates it, is a very silly concept. Two people who want to spend their lives together, for some reason cannot talk about it until AFTER they've committed to marriage. That's insane.

If I got down on one knee and said "Honey, we're selling the house and moving to Iceland" she'd think I'd lost my mind. Even if the idea isn't so extreme, she'd fully expect that we would have discussed the pros and cons of such a move, and made a mutual decision on it.

But for some reason, that's exactly how we approach marriage. We don't talk about it, and discuss how each of us feels. We all but jump out of a cake and yell "surprise!" Why do we treat marriage like some kind of Publishers Clearing House prize?

Go Vols

(5,902 posts)
58. Tradionately, marriage is something
Sun May 4, 2014, 12:52 AM
May 2014

to satisfy the church.Its attached to legal shit now.

I was "married" once,I have cohabitated with 2 others since.

That piece of paper means shit to me, except it will make it harder to part ways if need be.

pnwmom

(108,976 posts)
61. Men decide to propose about half the time, in my opinion.
Sun May 4, 2014, 01:40 AM
May 2014

The rest of the time, the woman decides that the man should propose.



In either situation, in a typical American relationship, there is a great deal of talking about the possibility before any proposal occurs. The only real surprise with most couples is exactly how the proposal is carried out.

 

davidn3600

(6,342 posts)
71. Why women will never propose to men
Sun May 4, 2014, 02:45 AM
May 2014
As I write this, seemingly every article on the Telegraph website is flanked by adverts for engagement rings. Not just any old rings either – ones that are identified by the colour of the box. Deep red, blue, cream.

The only unifying factor being that each slogan, video and twinkle is aimed at one half of the market, to be bought by the other. Because even in this age of supposed equal opportunity, it is still socially unacceptable for a woman to propose to a man.

---

Because despite the fact that I am a fully paid up feminist of the non-hairy armpit kind, the psychological element remains that women want to be proposed to.

We want the declaration that this man takes this woman to be his lawful wedded wife.

As one of my other (male) friends neatly put it: “Marriage is one of the last bastions of good old-fashioned romance, which can be the only reason it continues to flourish in an increasingly secular world. I believe most girls wanting a church wedding wouldn’t want the ‘right’ to propose given they are after a stylised ideal – the romantic proposal, ring, old church, flowers, white dress etc as much as what it symbolises.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/sex/online-dating/9868779/Why-women-will-never-propose-to-men.html


Wedding planners, florists, churches, and De Beers thanks you for these traditions that will now never die.
 

cali

(114,904 posts)
72. I did. Married 2x, proposed to my first
Sun May 4, 2014, 03:11 AM
May 2014

and that was over 30 years ago. I think it went something like this:

"well, why don't we just get married?" response: "OK".

the height of romance.

 

HockeyMom

(14,337 posts)
76. "Let's get married", I said
Sun May 4, 2014, 07:02 AM
May 2014

He said, "That sounds like a good idea". My husband generally doesn't like making decisions. I usually am the the one to initiate them, and have for 40 years. Getting married was no different.

I suppose it just depends on the individual people involved.

 

TheFrenchRazor

(2,116 posts)
73. the reality is that straight men and women are very attached to their gender roles; it doesn't
Sun May 4, 2014, 04:31 AM
May 2014

even matter what the particulars of the roles are, as they vary based on time and place; i seriously think that there is some visceral, deep seeded fear of transgressing these gender roles, and that is the main thing that keeps both sexes from from behaving in a more rational, egalitarian way.

MineralMan

(146,286 posts)
81. They do.
Sun May 4, 2014, 10:09 AM
May 2014

My wife brought the subject up soon after we began a relationship. We discussed it, and decided that we should do that. Then, we went to a jeweler in Las Vegas and bought rings. It's a great memory for us, now, 22 years later.

Women frequently initiate discussions about making relationships permanent and official.

LWolf

(46,179 posts)
91. Because...
Mon May 5, 2014, 08:00 AM
May 2014

I don't want to get home from a long day at work to find a man in my chair waiting for his dinner and other services.

Which is pretty much the reason why both of my marriages ended. My bad attitude about being a "wife."

 

MO_Moderate

(377 posts)
97. Because they like the tradition of man asking woman
Mon May 5, 2014, 01:20 PM
May 2014

Most women don't feel as if they are the victim of some kind of evil plot by all men to view women only as sex objects and keep them in the kitchen.

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