13-Year-Old Willow Smith Poses on a Bed With 20-Year-Old Shirtless Man

[alp227]

Folks across the country have issued a collective sanctimonious gasp over news that Will and Jada Smith's 13-year-old daughter Willow posed for some moody bedroom photos with shirtless 20-year-old actor Moises Arias. Disappointingly (but unsurprisingly), much of the backlash has focused on Willow's behavior or her parents' failure to control her rather than the adult man photographed alongside her.

The shots aren't new to the net; Arias (who some may know from a recurring role in Hannah Montana)posted them to his Tumblr last month without so much as a peeplike utterance from the web. It wasn't until yesterday, when Willow posted the photos to her Instagram account, that people started going really fucking nuts.

full: http://jezebel.com/13-year-old-willow-smith-poses-on-a-bed-with-20-year-ol-1573000364

i wouldn't have a problem with somebody over the age of consent (16 is it in most states?) in the photo with the Arias. But 13? C'mon.

[morningfog]

1. What is the age of consent for sitting near a shirtless man?

[cyberswede]

5. lol

[alp227]

16. How young is too young to sexualize a person? nt

[morningfog]

20. What does sexualize mean?

[Supersedeas]

192. the socratic method still works

[immoderate]

27. To sexualize -- or to BE sexualized?

And in whose mind should this affront take place?

--imm

[LadyHawkAZ]

21. 57, apparently. n/t

[Art_from_Ark]

196. Better keep those 13-year-olds away from public swimming pools!

Lots of shirtless men hanging around there!

[uppityperson]

2. I like the last bits from the article. I don't see the problem.

He's shirtless and sitting up, she's reclining and resting her head on his knee. She's fully clothed. No parts of either of their torsos or pelvic regions are touching each other. She's not even facing his nipples! They're not under the covers! They're on. A. Made. Bed. Sometimes people sit on beds.

Further, we don't know what relationship these photos convey. Arias is a friend of Willow's brother; maybe she's known him for years and sees him like a platonic nonthreating male relative. And 13-year-old girls and 20-year-old nonrelated males are allowed to make nonsexual physical contact.

[big_dog]

25. Will and Jada Pinkett Smith have 'no issues' with their daughter Willow, 13, lying in bed with Mois

Eyebrows were raised when a photo of Willow Smith lying in bed with actor Moises Arias was noticed on one of Kylie Jenner's Tumblr accounts on Tuesday.
But the singer's parents - actors Will and Jada Pinkett Smith - have no problem with their 13-year-old daughter posing that way with the 20-year-old actor, according to a Wednesday report from TMZ.
A source said the Smiths, who are both in their 40s, think Willow is 'old enough to make decisions on who she hangs with, even innocently in bed.'
Sources close to the married couple said they think their daughter is 'very mature' and think she has not 'crossed the line.' The black-and-white shots are an 'expression of art,' they beleive.
Moises is not a new face in the Smith family. The Hannah Montana star has been best friends with Will and Jada's 15-year-old Jaden for 'many years.




Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2622711/Will-Jada-Smith-no-issues-daughter-Willow-13-lying-bed-Moises-Arias-20-hes-family-friend.html#ixzz314MTy2Yd

[hrmjustin]

176. Your disruptive. get a new hobby!

[uppityperson]

177. Aw dang, missed the sociopath again. Maybe she should start an insect collection?

that is a good hobby and involves pins which might appeal to her not so nice nature?

[hrmjustin]

179. Lol,.

[Squinch]

3. I didn't see anything wrong with those photos. They look very platonic. It doesn't indicate

anything sexual to me.

[MattBaggins]

4. These photos are too small a snap shot in time

to make any conclusion what so ever about them

[jeff47]

6. Beaches must utterly horrify you. (nt)

[lunasun]

8. +2014 Ha -great reply!!

[Supersedeas]

206. space on the beach and the modern swimsuit aren't so roomy

[JI7]

7. those pics could be from any group of family or friends that are just hanging out

i thought the pics were going to be something like the purity ball creep pics.

[maddezmom]

9. People need to get a life

shirtless man....scary. Thank god she didn't post pics at the pool or beach.

[The Straight Story]

10. Would people be upset if the photo was of her and a woman?

Maybe she isn't straight, maybe he isn't, etc.

Now if he had been holding open a door for her we could assume he was straight and was doing so because he wanted sex with her. But in this case they are just laying on a bed.

[misterhighwasted]

33. Exacatly right. Well stated.

I don't see the big deal with the photo. It tells no story at all but leaves that up to the viewer.

[dionysus]

174. there was similar outcry when a younger miley cyrus was draped over her dad's lap for a posed photo

[quinnox]

11. A shirtless man? *gasp*

Think of the children!

[notadmblnd]

12. The Victorian age ended in 1901

nt

[Comrade Grumpy]

13. People need to get a life.

[monmouth3]

14. That is the most innocent, blah,blah, blah photo I've seen. Good lord..n/t

[pipoman]

15. I see nothing terribly wrong with the photos. ..

If it comes to light later that she was victimized by this guy, her guardians should have culpability in the crime, imho. Until then I would yield to their judgment until it is demonstrated to be bad.

[erpowers]

17. I Have A Problem With the Pictures

I realize some people on DU will disagree with me, but I have a problem with a 20 year old man taking shirtless pictures with a 13 year old girl. He is a grown man and she is a child. If he is just a friend, he can put his shirt on and sit in a chair. I do not think it is Victorian Era thinking to think a 20 year old man should not be sitting shirtless on a bed with a 13 year old girl.

[JI7]

19. he is her brother's friend

[erpowers]

22. I Realize That

I realize he is a friend of her brother. That is why I said he could put on a shirt and sit on the chair.

[JI7]

23. friends usually don't worry about being so formal

[whathehell]

28. Except he's her brother's friend, not necessarily hers..

[JI7]

31. and siblings and their friends often end up hanging out

especially if they are still young .

[whathehell]

40. and just as often they don't, especially if they're of different genders

and ages.

[JI7]

46. in this case it looks like they do

[whathehell]

199. In this case what it "looks like" is open to interpretation..

Deal with it.

[former9thward]

152. Why would a 20 year old be "best friends" with a 15 year old "for many years"?

At those ages the age gap is enormous.

[whathehell]

30. I agree...The sexualization of children (yes, 13 is a child) is an ongoing pursuit

of way too many.

[JI7]

47. yeah, but in this case there is nothing sexual

[whathehell]

200. Not blatantly, no, but I assume you're familiar with the word "suggestive".

[Atman]

204. And YOU are doing the "suggesting."

Trying to make everyone else think there is something terrible going on with two friends hanging out.

[whathehell]

217. Oh Heavens!....Me and my dirty minded"suggesting" self, Lol!

Judging by the OP and others on the thread, it seems I have a lot of company.

[phleshdef]

209. Its only suggestive if you send your mind straight to the gutter and start making baseless judgement

[whathehell]

214. Gee -- Who would have thought so many DUers -- the Op, Intaglio, Starry Messenger, Bain's Bane

me, and those on the internet referenced by the OP "sebd their minds to the gutter"...

Get your panties out of a knot -- This is just a mild difference of opinion (No one has called the photo 'obscene'

or pornographic) and it does NOT merit the nasty, personal attacks you and and many other

"defenders" of the photo are hurling at those of us who don't see things your way -- Talk about "baseless judgememt"


You all need to grow up and learn to tolerate disagreement with some modicum of civility.

[phleshdef]

215. Really strikes a nerve when you get called out for your pious, gutteral nonsense eh?

[whathehell]

218. LOL..The "nerve" that's struck seems to be yours, honey.

[phleshdef]

219. Yea, it does strike a nerve when people insinuate pedophilic behavior towards innocent people.

[whathehell]

221. Aw, shucks, Aunt Righteous... Good luck on your Mission from God.

[Warren DeMontague]

18. I don't see anything terribly "sexual" about those pictures.

More like a hot Manhattan afternoon in a loft with no window AC unit.

[hopemountain]

24. they live in socal, for jeepers sakes

a lot of young men on the coast run around shirtless wearing jams and flipflops. and 13 year old girls often hangout with their bros and their friends they have grown up with.

[Avalux]

26. They look like they're watching TV. Others may be in the room.....who cares!!!

Why don't people get outraged over things worth getting outraged about?

[LadyHawkAZ]

35. At least one other person was definitely there, taking the pictures

Probably her brother.

But ehrmagerd, they're on a bed, and other people have sex on beds, therefore they are having sex on the bed. Or something.

[LittleBlue]

29. In Europe they do worse than this

Models under 18 pose nude. There was a small uproar about it in an English fashion blog I follow.

13 is pretty ridiculous to pose with a 20-year-old dude. I'm surprised Will and Jada allowed it. On the other hand, if she intends to pursue modeling, 13 is a good age to start.

They're both clothed, so it's a meh from me.

[whathehell]

45. "13 is a pretty ridiculous age to pose with a 20 year old dude..

I'm surprised Will and Jada allowed it".

Yes.

"On the other hand, if she intends to pursue modeling, 13 is a good age to start"

There's really no "other hand" -- She could pursue modeling in an entirely different,

age-appropriate context...You got right the first time.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

32. There is nothing "sexual" about these pictures....

If you think a shirtless man = sexual, that's on you.

[enough]

37. I agree. If these were family photos, they would just be family photos.

Which apparently is what they are.

[whathehell]

41. Um, it's not just "the shirtless man"..

It's the little girl lying on his legs, duh.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

50. Legs = sex.

I must have forgotten. It's possible to touch someones leg without getting aroused you know.....The only thing "sexual" about this photo is what you're projecting on it.

[whathehell]

197. Oh, honey, give it up...We're all entitled to our opinions.

Grow up.

[redqueen]

34. So revealing

much of the backlash has focused on Willow's behavior or her parents' failure to control her rather than the adult man photographed alongside her.

The shots aren't new to the net; Arias (who some may know from a recurring role in Hannah Montana)posted them to his Tumblr last month without so much as a peeplike utterance from the web. It wasn't until yesterday, when Willow posted the photos to her Instagram account, that people started going really fucking nuts.

Over a pic that shows nothing sexual.

What a sad spectacle.

[laundry_queen]

61. I'm so sorry

but I haw haw'ed right out loud when I read the comments:

Who the hell reads Moises Arias' Tumbler?

response: ikr

For those who don't know he played one of THE most irritating characters on Hannah Montana (probably the most irritating I've seen on kid's television). I have 4 daughters so I'm well versed in Hannah Montana.

[StarryNite]

36. It shows nothing revealing...however,

when my daughter was 13 I sure wouldn't let her lay in a bed with a man or even a boy her own age. Maybe this was just a photo shoot but it still doesn't seem right. And no, it's not the same thing as people on a beach.

How many people find these pictures okay but are opposed to the Purity Balls? I think they are both wrong.

[whathehell]

42. Thank you....n/t

[Humanist_Activist]

80. Purity balls are about pledging your virginity to your father, as a girl...

I find that both sexist(why aren't boys pledging their virginity to their mothers?), and just...strange. Its a new, religious/cultural phenomenon that seems creepy because of two things, the pledging of virginity seems far too sexual, and two, it portrays domineering parenting as a good thing.

I don't see how that is in any way comparable to an innocent photo, you are removing the context from the photo, inserting your own sexual issues onto it, and then claiming its wrong because of that. The Purity Balls provide their own, explicit and creepy context.

[chrisa]

38. Isn't the real problem that peoples' minds instantly jump to pedophilia?

It's not like there's anything remotely provocative about the picture. Very strange...

[nomorenomore08]

39. +1

[whathehell]

43. No, that isn't the real problem..

The real problem is a 13 year old lying on a bed with a shirtless 20 year old man.

[chrisa]

48. And without any context. Why do people always assume the worst?

What if Will Smith were standing right there? Wouldn't that drastically change the context of the picture?

[MADem]

54. What if Will Smith, or his wife, took the stupid picture?

If that's "sexy" I think some people have a very pathetic idea of what constitutes "sexy." They look like they're watching cartoons.

[whathehell]

194. I'm not "assuming" anything...I'm giving my opinion of a photo..

If Will were standing there it might change the context.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

55. The real problem is people projecting sex onto everything.

What's your obsession with making non-sexual situations sexual?

[whathehell]

193. What's your "obsession" with attacking people who disagee with you?

Insecure much?

[951-Riverside]

44. Geez everyone so prudish, BIG DEAL! Its only flesh and skin. I don't see ANYTHING wrong with this.

Michael Jackson, Woody Allen and Roman Polanski all did it. BIG WHOOP!

Get off your high horses.

Shes more than capable of handling herself.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

51. Are you implying the man in the photo molested her?

That's a pretty serious allegation. Maybe we should ask the girl herself if she was victimized? She seems to think not.

[951-Riverside]

56. Whoa whoa whoa! Don't be a prude, whatever happened was clearly consensual

What a shirtless 20 year old man does behind closed doors with a 13 year old girl on a bed is NONE of our business. Geez get off your high horses people, like Michael Jackson once said:

"Why can't you share your bed? The most loving thing to do is to share your bed with someone. "

[Agschmid]

181. Well that's a ridiculous comparison... But ok.

[Jenoch]

49. I don't care what anyone says.

A 13 year old girl and a 20 year old man should not be 'lounging' together on a bed for any reason. The nly way that woukd be acceptable is if they were siblings.

[Fearless]

72. Why would it be acceptable then?

[penultimate]

52. Neither of them are wearing socks either!!!!1one!!! OMG! The horrors!

[MADem]

53. I thought it looked like they were lounging around and watching television.

Not like she was "posing on a bed with a shirtless man."

Someone with a camera was clearly in the room. She doesn't look "seductive" -- she looks tired, and he looks comfortable, not "lustful."

The 20 year old is apparently best friends with her fifteen year old brother.



I think there are a lot of things that are worth worrying about, but I think a bunch of Hollywood kids who don't--for a change--look like they're doing anything wrong (Miss Willow is entirely dressed) isn't very high on my list.

[KittyWampus]

189. What I find a wee bit strange is a 15 yr old sees a 20 yr old as their best friend.

Totally different peer groups.

[MADem]

191. Apparently, from what everyone who knows them is saying,

they are in the same "biz," the older one is young for his age and the younger one is old for his age, and they have known each other personally and professionally for many years now.

Apparently the twenty year old had a role in the Hannah Montana program.

[StarryNite]

57. I smell a double standard.

As I recall the girls who were dancing with their fathers at the Purity Ball were fully clothed too, yet most of us found it very creepy. There were obviously other people at the ball taking pictures but we still felt something was wrong with it. We didn't see anything in particular going on but we had that feeling it was wrong. But a 20 year old man laying in a bed with a 13 year old girl seems perfectly okay? Would you all be okay if your 13 year old daughter was laying in bed with a man?

[JI7]

58. because the purity balls are all about sex , it's all about girls substituting their father

until they find a husband and to commit to not have sex with anyone else.

the whole thing is just creepy. the pics were creepy because we knew what the subject matter was.

in the pic of of this op we see 2 people on the same bed and we know the guy is a friend of the girl's brother . so we just see it as people who are hanging out unless there is anything we don't know. it's all normal .

[StarryNite]

60. But

we are making a leap in our thinking if we feel the girls are substituting their fathers for sex. We don't like the way the fathers look at their daughters in the still shots we've seen. We don't like that the girls consider their fathers to be their boyfriends or husbands or whatever the heck they're considered to be. The girls don't appear to be pressured into it. They look happy but we feel it's creepy. However, we have no proof that anything abusive is going on. Those are their fathers and yet we worry for those minor aged girls.

Now we have this minor aged girl laying in a bed with a man. Does it really matter that he's the friend of her brother? Most girls that are sexually abused are abused by somebody they know. Somebody they might start out trusting.

I don't know, both scenarios seem twisted and wrong to me. I wouldn't have allowed my 13 year old daughter to lay in bed with a man. And I would have asked my adult son what the hell he was thinking if I had seen him laying in a bed with a 13 year old girl.

[JI7]

62. what is the "purity" in purity balls about ? the entire thing is about sex

it's just fucking creepy. it's what we know. i'm not claiming the fathers are molesting the daughters or anything like that. but the whole thing is fucking creepy regardless.

in the op pics i have been in many situations where a similar snapshot could have been taken . i remember many times hanging out with some people on the bed or lying around somewhere else.

[StarryNite]

63. I don't know your gender...

but if you're male, after you became a man, did you lay in bed with 13 year old girls? Remember, this guy is 20, he's not a kid.

And yes, those purity balls are creepy to me too!

[JI7]

69. they aren't laying as in sleeping together, they are lounging around, similar to if it was a couch

and there were times usually when it was some family get together and you would have a bunch hanging out in some bedroom including on the bed .

[bananas]

70. The purity ball girls have sex with their fathers?

You wrote:

because the purity balls are all about sex , it's all about girls substituting their father

until they find a husband and to commit to not have sex with anyone else.

Sounds like you're saying the girls have sex with their fathers.

I didn't read the purity ball threads, is that what DUers were actually saying?

[Blue_Tires]

59. I'll give her this much: At 13 she is already a world-class expert in media manipulation..

Hollywood reporters are going to have a heart attack trying to chase her around town...

[BainsBane]

64. If she were my daughter I'd have none of it

but she's not my daughter.

[intaglio]

65. Those who see nothing wrong are probably perfectly content

With photos that encourage pedophile activity in adults. It also teaches 13 year olds it is OK to act in a sexually risky manner with adults.

[StarryNite]

66. I agree!

And I have to wonder how many of those people would think it was okay for their spouse to lay in bed with an adult of the opposite sex, after all, they're just chillin' right? LOL

[Humanist_Activist]

78. Uhm, if they aren't jealous rageaholics who don't trust their spouse, why would...

they have a problem with that? After all, its not like they are having sex or behaving unfaithfully.

If you have issues with such innocent activities, then there must be some serious trust issues in your relationship.

Of course, bear in mind that in our apartment, our couch in the living room is a futon that is decidedly uncomfortable, and if either me or my SO have anyone over, and we are watching a movie together, it will most likely be in one of the bedrooms, the "mancave" has a twin bed(and HDTV), also doubles as my office, or the master bedroom. Neither room has chairs in them, nor room for them, unless you take out the beds.

[intaglio]

85. Ad hom attack on the Starry Nite

General MRA style misogynistic characterisation of (female) spouses.

Insistence that it is OK for others to allow children to engage in risky behaviours

Insistence that such activities are "innocent" and carry no risk

And lastly, you are implying that you would lie on your bed with a 13yo girl - is there any way I can inform CPS about the potential risk you pose to girls?

You are a piece of work!

[polly7]

167. YOU are a piece of work!

How you can twist the words and intent of others to reflect your own distorted views and then use them to stoke outrage - is sick.

You should stop.

[Comrade Grumpy]

224. Is this performance art?

[Fearless]

81. If I was married I wouldn't mind if my husband sat in bed with a male (or female) friend.

People sit at the same distance on the couch all the time.

Besides, back in college a group of friends would all sit basically shoulder to shoulder in the dorm room watching tv/video games/movies and whatnot until we'd pass out in the wee hours of the morning. I'm sure there was even a time or two a leg brushed another leg! But it's not sexual. And my boyfriend at the time never touched another guy in a sexual manner or he wouldn't be my boyfriend (and vice versa).

[intaglio]

84. If you were married would you be happy for your half naked husband

to be on a bed with a 13yo girl? If so please be prepared to receive many proposals of marriage from sexual predators who would love to marry with an enabler of abuse.

BTW when you were in college, were you 13 years old? Did you have many 13yo passed out on these beds?

[Fearless]

170. In some places it is very warm.

For instance, I spent a short period of time in Hawaii. I don't think I wore a shirt for ten minutes during that time if I didn't have to. It is socially acceptable there to walk around "half naked". It's not sexual. It's comfortable.

If I was married, I don't think I would need to order my husband to not sit near younger female friends without a shirt on. Primarily because my husband would not be a pedophile. But also because he would be gay. And secondarily, I don't see people getting bent out of shape if it was a 13 year old boy and a 20 year old friend either. Why? Because it is assumed that in a heteronormative society that they will not engage in sexual activities. The same is true of mixed gender groups, but there is an irrational fear that for some reason Joe Sixpack will just out of the blue want to rape a girl. That's a silly and irrational fear. If you know the young man and trust him, and have no reason not to think he might rape someone, then it really isn't a big deal at all. Very few guys find 13 year old girls attractive, and it takes a very sick person to try something.

[Hissyspit]

68. Or not.

[Fearless]

73. What exactly here encourages pedophilia?

And what was she doing that was sexually risky?

Would this help?

[intaglio]

74. A 13 year old gir gets into bed with a 20 year old man

and you are saying that there is no risk to the girl of being sexually assaulted - or are you an idiot who believes a 13yo can give informed consent to sexual activity.

As a hobby do you make jokes about battered women, rape, murder and holocaust?

[Fearless]

75. Sitting on a bed does not equal sexual assualt.

Men are not sex starved proto-humans, incapable of non-sexual relationships with members of the opposite sex. Had it been a 20 year old women, no one would have cared.

And at what point does this photo suggest that she was battered, raped, murdered, or in any way affiliated with the holocaust? I'd sure like to know.

And for the record... they got ONTO bed not INTO bed. There is a difference.

Clearly the parents know this young man, and feel it is a safe environment for their daughter. I am fine with that.

And again I ask what this photo has to do with pedophilia?

[intaglio]

82. A greater RISK - read what was written

You would be happy for a 13yo to go to a neighbours house and play happy families with a half naked guy on a bed. For the record not IN the bed - ON the bed. Or does sexual assault only occur when people get under blankets, presumable so God doesn't see?

Next let's dispose of your nonsense that this concerns only Willow Smith, it doesn't: it concerns girls and their families who do not perceive the risk of such behaviour and who will add this photo shoot to the cultural background that friends are safe.

You also seem to have the stupid idea that if the family know the young man with whom their 13yo daughter is friends she will be safe: you are aware that the vast majority of child sexual assaults are committed by family and friends?

[Fearless]

172. You're creating a situation that isn't real

1. They had known each other personally for several years

2. In that time, he had never done anything to her of a sexual nature

3. Her parents have full confidence in nothing happening, people who heretofore have never shown signs of neglect toward their children

4. There was at least one other person in the room

5. They were art photos not a real scene caught in photo. They were planned images

6. Nothing of a sexual nature is happening in the photo

7. Having a shirt off does not imply sexual activity.

8. They weren't in bed. They were sitting on a bed.

9. The existence of a bed does not imply sexual activity.

10. He has never been accused of being a pedophile.

11. She has never shown signs of sexual abuse and seems genuinely comfortable around him.

I could go on, but I've given this as much time as I'm willing. The fact is two people can pose for photos without being sexual active with each other. You see what you want to see.

[Humanist_Activist]

77. You are behaving as if he is a sexual predator and a total stranger, what the fuck?

Do you have anything reasonable to contribute to this discussion, or just wild accusations and conclusions?

[intaglio]

83. No, read what is written

The family have allowed their daughter to demonstrate to other 13yo girls and older men that it is acceptable for young girls to play games on a bed with an older man.

Also, as observed above, the vast majority of child sexual assaults are committed by family and friends.

This photo shoot increases risk

[Humanist_Activist]

88. That's an argument to make sure girls aren't allowed near any men until they reach...

age of majority. At least not unsupervised.

I don't see how the photo shoot increases risk.

[intaglio]

91. No, you wouldn't see how such a public example increases risk

Any more than you would see how the publicity of groupie culture harmed and enabled the sexual assault of many children. Indeed I am sure you are happy to give Jimmy Savile, Paul Gadd, Iggy Pop et al the benefit of the doubt because, mostly all they were doing was being photographed and lying on couches aor beds with under-age girls, indeed they were hardly guilty of Child Sexual Abuse at all.

But as long as you keep your private fantasies festering inside your skull I see no problem at all.

[maddezmom]

92. She wasn't in bed, they were on a bed

There is nothing sexual in that picture.

[intaglio]

96. So you too think that sexual assault can only occur under the blankets

The picture may not be sexual to you (but beware there are a lot of wierdos out there) however the point is not the sexuality within the image. The point is the visible example it sets to underage children, their parents and the friends who would like to pose in the same way.

It increases risk by normalising a particularly behaviour which can then be exploited by an abuser.

[JI7]

97. sexual assault could happen if they are sitting on different chairs

sexual assault could happen if someone is walking alone somewhere .

[intaglio]

102. True but it is a a lot easier to commit the assault

if the child is lying on the abuser's bed, the abuser is partly unclothed, and both the child and the child's parents view that situation as risk free.

[maddezmom]

100. As a victim of sexual assault I know that it can occur anywhere

But I do not believe this picture harms anyone and to assert because i don't see it the same way as you.....that according to you:
perfectly content with photos that encourage pedophile activity in adults....is absurd.

[intaglio]

141. I have not said it encourages pedophile activity

I have said that it makes situations that allow pedophile activity seem more normal and hence the report of the abused both less believable and less likely.

As you are an abuse survivor the following bits of imagined dialogue may require a trigger warning. Sorry I hate trying to get into the mind of abusers
.
.
.
.
.
.
"It's OK, babe, guys cuddle girls all the time - you know, like Willow and her friend, - and you thought those photo's were cool,"
"Oh, we were only cuddling - like Willow and her brother's friend - sorry if your daughter thought it was wrong,"
"We were having a tickle game - and she asked me to take off my shirt like Willow's friend - I didn't see anything wrong,"
"She's up in my room asleep - I think she had a nightmare though, don't worry I'll be there when she wakes up."

/Shud-d-d-d-er

[maddezmom]

144. You did say it

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4923952

Sorry, but you seem to have an active imagination.

[intaglio]

149. I agree "enable" peodphile activity would have been better n/t

[maddezmom]

150. Actually, that is worse but I can see it actually is how you feel

And it is disturbing that you would go there because of a difference of opinion over a photo.

[intaglio]

154. No it is disturbing that a photo shoot can normalise risky behaviour for 13yo n/t

[Agschmid]

164. Yup.

[maddezmom]

86. What a load of bullshit

[intaglio]

87. Any reasons or are you just making unsupported assertions?

Bullshit may stink but it is more useful than your post because it encourages flowers to grow

[Humanist_Activist]

89. That's rich coming from someone who accuses anyone who doesn't agree with them...

to being a pedophile.

[intaglio]

93. No I reported, entirely accurately,

That you were happy to lie in your bed in your apartment with, guests, and asserted that if you thought that such if behaviour with a 13yo girl was acceptable I would want to inform CPS about the risk you posed.

Are you now saying that you view lying on your bed in your apartment with a 13yo girl as acceptable and not in the least risky?

[Humanist_Activist]

95. No, why would it be? I'm not attracted to 13 year old girls.

What risk are you talking about here?

[intaglio]

98. Then why were you asserting that your experience with your acquaintances

has any bearing on this thread at all? This thread is about how these photographs teach 13yo children (and the parents of such children) that lying on a bed with a much older, half naked man is an acceptable behaviour.

I say this photo shoot is, at the very least, irresponsible.

[Humanist_Activist]

99. You are the one who slandered me, saying I was a risk to 13 year old girls...

ON EDIT: Frankly, I think this is called projection.

[intaglio]

112. No, you admitted to a particular behaviour with, presumably, consenting adults

I pointed out that this thread concerned a 13yo girl and that if you performed those same behaviours with a 13yo I would want to report you to CPS.

That is not slander just a statement of fact.

[Humanist_Activist]

114. Again, what justification, or lie would you have to tell CPS?

And I will say that we did have a Super Smash Bros. Melee tournament in the room I'm talking about, that means that I, my fiancee, and her two nieces, aged 14 and 16 were all on the bed, at the same time! OMG, report me, if you dare.

[intaglio]

125. You have abandoned reading for comprehension again

I stated that if (note the conditional "if&quot you performed those actions with a 13 year old I would have a right (and probably a duty) to so report you.

You have also quoted a hypothetical case as an invitation for me to report you.

[Humanist_Activist]

126. And CPS would tell you to go away and stop filing false claims. n/t

[intaglio]

133. Yes, because it is a hypothetical case

But if you performed the actions I outlined then a child would be at risk.

[giftedgirl77]

135. At risk for what? Leaning on a friend is not a crime or even taboo.

Hell she wasn't even leaning against the unclothed body part which was his torso. I can imagine the erhmigawd if she had been leaning against his bare arm.

[intaglio]

143. A 13yo being alone, on a bed with a part clothed adult increases the risk of abuse

Parents who think it is normal for such activity to take place are placing their children at risk.

[maddezmom]

147. Don't you think it depends on the people involved in the pic?

As for the rest of your comment about parents, I will just link to my other reply to you.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4924290

[intaglio]

155. So you are claiming that I implied it

Despite all the caveats.

[maddezmom]

156. Your caveats came after your initial post.

[giftedgirl77]

159. Oh bullshit. My son never wears a shirt around the house.

Everything isn't a potential case of abuse. If you look at the pic he isn't even touching her (other than his knee).

[Atman]

201. They were ALONE? So who took the picture?

Intaglio seems to be trying to create hysteria where none belongs. I couldn't believe the pictures when I first saw them. Like, THIS is what all the fuss is about? I grew up on the beach. We went to the grocery store, hell even went to school, wearing less clothing than this. Your own personal hang-ups about the human body don't make another person a pedophile.

[whathehell]

202. Oh Please -- It's not a question of "being alone" sans a photographer

Pornography generally requires photographers too --- and no, I'm not saying this

picture amounts to porn..It's just a tad suggestive and something I wouldn't be comfortable

with my 13 year old daughter doing.

[Atman]

203. So we disagree.

The girl is doing nothing but hanging with a friend. Would it make a difference if they were on the carpet in the living room in front of a TV? NOTHING is going on...they are both dressed...women are not even required to wear shirts in New York City, why does it bend you out of shape that a man is shirtless here?

Sherman, set the Wayback Machine to 1600!

[whathehell]

220. Yeah, but the only people here I see "bent out of shape" are

you and the photo's other "defenders".

Project much?.

[phleshdef]

211. They obviously aren't alone. Pictures don't take themselves. Get your mind out of the gutter.

[maddezmom]

90. LOL!

It was your unsupported assertions that I was calling bullshit on.

[intaglio]

94. Which unsupported assertions

Please tell

[Humanist_Activist]

101. How about you saying I pose a risk to 13 year old girls, or are you going to delete that?

You are one sick person.

[intaglio]

104. No I said that if you commited the particular behaviour outlined you would be a risk

I also noted that you seem to think it is acceptable for 13yo children to be alone on the bed of a half naked, older man.

[Humanist_Activist]

105. I like how you use the term "half-naked", to make things seem more risky...

He was shirtless, if he's like most guys, like me, I go shirtless all the time when I'm at home, hell I only wear pants when we have company over.

And, here's the key, the ones who get to judge if its acceptable or not would be the parents, the friend and the 13 year old girl. Again, you seem to be sexualizing something that wasn't sexualized by the participants.

[LadyHawkAZ]

108. I liked how he emphasized "alone"

when the photographer, who was likely her brother since they are best friends, was also there.

[intaglio]

120. The picture emphasized the isolation

and it is the image that presents a 13yo lying on a bed with a much older man and that is the fantasy being presented, not the reality of a photo shoot. Do you picture all of the film crew present when watching scenes from Iron Man? Of course you do not.

[Humanist_Activist]

124. A fantasy YOU are projecting, what does that say about you? n/t

[intaglio]

131. Nice ad hom, but back to reality

I have stated that 13yo girls apparently alone with 20yo men are not healthy images to project. To counter that you chose to highlight your behaviours with an adult. In response that I pointed out that acceptable behaviours with an adult are not necessarily acceptable with a 13yo girl.

To get round this you have resorted to special pleading.

Please note
[font size="4"]At no point have I said you are guilty of such actions, just that if such actions are committed they place a child at risk[/font]

Note: also I have not resorted to the ad hom that really, you are protesting your innocence far too much. I have avoided that because I do not believe it and it would distract from your unacceptable argument that children with older men are not at risk.

[maddezmom]

140. Exactly

Only one person in this subthread seems to fantasizing.... And it is creepy.

[LadyHawkAZ]

129. It was neither fantasy nor photo shoot

It was a teenager hanging out with her brother and her brother's friend, apparently watching TV, which someone took a picture of. You are projecting something in your head into a situation where it didn't exist.

[intaglio]

132. Let me tell you about a girl who hung out with her brother and her brother's friend

Ok she was younger, 9, but the abuse continued until she was 15. No adult in the family believed her and, by report, the brother went on to abuse his own daughter (this first is anecdote but RIP, Kim)

What about the young girls in Rochdale who were used and prostituted by guys 20 - 30 years old? No-one believed them either.

What about that wonderful man, always working for charity, working with hospitals letting kids be photographed with him and assaulting kids for years because no-one believed those brave enough to talk because Jimmy Savile was such a kind man

[LadyHawkAZ]

134. And Willow has made such an accusation?

No? Didn't think so. Have a nice day.

[intaglio]

148. No and I did not say she did - do not try to put word in my mouth.

I said it would make it easier for abusers to portray their behaviours as acceptable. Just as Kim's brother portrayed to her that sex for a 9yo was normal because her parents had left her in his charge, just as the Rochdale abusers could rely on the disbelief of Childrens Services, just as Jimmy Savile chose his victims because they could not complain.

[JI7]

184. and there have been fathers who rape their daughter, so we should never allow any father to

be alone with his daughter. because it increases the risk of sexual abuse.

[phleshdef]

212. I've hung out in similar situations with friend's siblings and even my wifes younger sister.

I double god damn dare you to suggest there was anything sexual in nature about it. Double god damn dare you.

[intaglio]

109. No it is an accurate descriptive

Do you hang round shirtless with 13yo girls? I think not

[Humanist_Activist]

113. I did as a teenager, quite a bit, my sister's friends damn near lived at our parent's house...

growing up, her being 6 years younger, and me staying there even after starting college, I left my room without my shirt on many times. A couple of times, when I didn't know anyone else was there, I even, *gasp*, left my bedroom in only underwear. That lead to quite a bit of embarrassment.

So from when I was a kid till I was about 19-20 or so.

[intaglio]

123. So did you lie on your bed with these children? Were they unsupervised

Did you normalise unacceptable behaviours as acceptable? If you had had these younger persons alone in your room then you would need to have been reported to CPS because the greatest risk of abuse to children comes from family and friends.

BTW, you are now resorting to anecdotal evidence in an attempt to prove how harmless you are ...

[Humanist_Activist]

127. Why the fuck do I have to fucking prove that I'm harmless? Seriously, just stop digging yourself...

deeper into this hole.

[intaglio]

142. I am not saying you are an abuser FFS

I am saying that if you indulged in behaviour that could lead to abuse you would need to be watched.

There is reality and then there is the hypothetical.

[maddezmom]

145. The implication was clear to me.

Okay, maybe you didn't state it outright but it is there. So is the implication about those of us that don't see the same as you do in the photo and it is offensive, not only as a rape survivor but as the mom of a 13 yr old girl.

[intaglio]

153. No, I did not state it outright indeed I did not even imply it

I gave a hypothetical where an adult acting in the same way with a 13yo as he does with another adult could be classed as abusive behaviour.

[giftedgirl77]

137. You have no clue whether they were supervised or not & not

every relationship is sinister. Many people just grow up as homies & that's it. Many of us had friends that were like family to us & would do anything for our siblings as well & treat them as such.

They are FL kids we don't do much in the clothes dept ever, I can't get my son to wear a shirt to save his life. But I'll be sure to let him know about the implications it can lead to by not wearing one.

[maddezmom]

103. The disgusting accusation against Human_Activist

You really should delete those.

[intaglio]

106. No, he owned to a particular behaviour

ie only having a bed as a comfortable seat in his apartment and that guests often shared that bed with him, presumably in a non-sexual way.

I pointed out that he did not do that with 13yo girls but that if he did I would want to report him to CPS.

That is not an accusation, it is a statement of an action I would take if I believed Human_Activist did perform such abusive behaviours. This is an assertion of the type of actions I have taken in the past to protect the vulnerable.

[Humanist_Activist]

110. What justification could you possibly have to report me to CPS, seriously, that is just disgusting.

You enjoy falsely reporting people to authorities, do you get your rocks off that way?

[intaglio]

115. I did not say I did have justification, please read for comprehension

1) I said that you have owned to acting in a certain way with adult friends;

2) I have said that this thread does not concern the actions of adults but the actions of minors, specifically 13yo children;

3) I averred that if you acted with a 13yo in the same way as you do with adults I would want to report you to CPS.

If this last case pertained to reality I would have such justification but I am not saying this case is the actuality.

You have attempted to draw a parallel between your, presumably, innocent behaviours and the behaviours approved by this photo shoot, if you don't like me pointing out the foolishness of your parallel then don't make it

[Humanist_Activist]

116. Uhm, what behaviors in the photo shoot are unacceptable? n/t

[intaglio]

146. The behaviours portrayed in the photoshoot are risky

Note I said "portrayed" and "risky".

The concept that informed the idea of this photo shoot in itself is unacceptable because it seeks to portray risky behaviours as normal.

[Humanist_Activist]

107. Last month, my niece slept on my bare chest...

granted, she was 2 months old, I was babysitting, and she already did something that was very nasty to my shirt at the time.

The worst thing though was she has a grip like a titan, I don't have many chest hairs, and I had fewer after she was done with me. lol

[maddezmom]

111. Glad you didn't post a pic here

Or intaglio might have reported you to the authorities. some of the stuff in this thread has me SMH.

[maddezmom]

118. OMG are you serious?

[Humanist_Activist]

122. I wonder how horrified he would be that I changed her diaper too! n/t

[intaglio]

136. It was a serious question

because it is a serious subject. There are too many cases of child abuse for this not to be serious. I am not accusing anyone of actual abuse but all responsible adults have to be aware of the possibility.

Pictures such as those mentioned in the OP normalise situations which make abuse more possible and hence make the abuse harder to detect.

[maddezmom]

139. An uncle babysitting his niece and nephew needs supervision?

I would hate to live in your world.

[jberryhill]

160. Seriously

I shudder to think what this person would have done upon catching me at the beach or the pool with my fiancee's daughters, carrying them around on my shirtless back and all!

[whathehell]

222. Sometimes...Or haven't you heard of kids molested by relatives?

Sorry, but you already "live in his world".

[maddezmom]

225. Sorry, I don't live in his or your world

[whathehell]

226. No, you live in a world of Denial..

Have fun..

[Humanist_Activist]

119. If you can count my 3 year old nephew running around like his head was chopped off...

as me being "supervised" then no.

Why? Are you projecting again?

[LadyHawkAZ]

130. Exactly how many times are you going to baselessly call him a child molester?

Are you trying for another vacation? What on earth is your problem?

[intaglio]

151. I did not, your claim about that is a lie

I said that if he acted with adolescents the way he acted with adult that (hypothetical) case would amount to child abuse

[LadyHawkAZ]

165. *snort* You do realize we can see the rest of your posts, right?

you are implying that you would lie on your bed with a 13yo girl - is there any way I can inform CPS about the potential risk you pose to girls?

But as long as you keep your private fantasies festering inside your skull I see no problem at all.

Or were you supervised?

In spite of your trying to insist that wasn't what you said, that was exactly what you said.

I'm glad to see a jury finally caught on.

[Agschmid]

182. It went 4-3 so it was pretty close, but I think it was a good hide the assertion was ludicrous.

[phleshdef]

210. Thats just god damn ridiculous.

I've been in similar situations with younger sisters of my friends, all watching tv in my friends bedroom or something. I didn't have my shirt off but there was nothing sexual about it and I DARE you to act like there was.

[Hissyspit]

67. Yawn.

[marions ghost]

168. Exactly

What is the problem? meh

[Fearless]

71. If it was a brother or other male relative no one would have a problem

But because it isn't, people are going crazy. The photos are not sexual. They aren't doing anything. They are happy. What a world we live in where people assume that the only thing on the guy's mind must be sex.

[GoCubsGo]

185. You hit the nail on the head.

Everything has always got to be about sex, even when it isn't. Sad.

[Warpy]

76. Well, boys will be boys, you know

and therefore utterly blameless when they go after barely pubescent little girls.

And for the terminally dense,

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

121. I run around shirtless (and shoeless) all the time

If 'the naughty bits' are covered, exactly what makes it sexual? Hell, even if he were fully nude, that pose wouldn't necessarily be sexual. If they were both fully nude it might not be sexual - they might both be naturists for all we know. Lots of people just don't like wearing clothes. I know a couple of people with fibromyalgia who spend a lot of time nude because there are 'fibro days' where wearing clothes just hurts too damn much.

Nudity != sex.

[StarryNite]

169. Fine for adults to run around naked

with each other as long as they both agree to it. A whole different ballgame when one is an adult and the other is a 13 year old kid. Get real.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

171. I take it you don't know any naturists.

Entire families run around nude and interact with other nudists of both genders and all ages.

Me, I'm too insecure to go anywhere nude in public, my body is hideously unaesthetic.


Of course, in this instance, the kid was already fully clothed, and the guy was every bit as dressed as you often see guys run around. I would guess the Smiths have a giganto pool, so the male friends and family might run around topless a lot.

[StarryNite]

173. You are completely missing the point.

But hey, if you'd be okay with your 13 year old daughter laying in/on bed with a man, I guess you just have a whole lot more trust than I do.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

180. Yeah, I tend to believe

that I would extend trust to long term friends of the family, no matter their age or gender, and not automatically assume they were sexual predators.

Not just any 'man' off the street, but somebody the family has known for quite a while, with no known history of perviness, that is.

[RedCappedBandit]

128. Maybe a little weird, but I don't see anything sexual about those photos.

If the guy is a close family friend it's not exactly abnormal.

[bobGandolf]

138. I agree n/t

[ecstatic]

157. Parents should be vigilant

Never get too relaxed. Of course the photo looks innocent. But that doesn't mean that inappropriate things aren't happening. At 13, I had grown men expose themselves to me and say inappropriate things. Men who my parents knew and possibly trusted. I never mentioned it to them, and luckily it never advanced to full blown assault, etc.

[Niceguy1]

158. some people just have too much free time on their hands

I really don't see the big deal

[LibertyLover]

161. What amazes me is

that she's the daughter of 2 well known and well paid actors and all she has is a dinky twin bed in her bedroom. I am presuming of course that it is her bedroom that the photos were taken in. If it was in Moises' bedroom, then dude - at least spring for a full size bed - trust me, it's more comfortable for two. Unless of course you add a large, cuddly, wussy greyhound to the mix.

[MineralMan]

162. Looking at the photos, it appears that she is asleep in both.

Boredom. I'm afraid I can't see anything ominous in either photo, which were probably taken by the kid's brother.

[Rex]

163. I see the corporate news cycle is at the bottom of the barrel.

How incredibly petty of them, that they had to add that he was GASP...shirtless!

[cbdo2007]

166. Wow, the responses here are amazing from a progressive, liberal website....

There is nothing in the picture that suggests anything sexual but people are so f***ed up in their own minds, they project all of their own fears/insecurities/fantasies on other people and freak out over nothing.

[StarryNite]

183. Progressive doesn't mean naive.

He's an adult male with a minor aged female laying in bed with him.

[chrisa]

187. So that means he's going to rape her? You're not making sense.

Did you have any older brothers? Did his friends ever hang around with you?

Why are people saying that he's a instantly a rapist because there's a young girl laying next to him? That's such a reach of an assumption that I don't even know where to start.

[cbdo2007]

190. So, in your mind, this photo taken completely out of context, implies...

that she is a sex object and he is a rapist. Great.

Would it be more appropriate if she was wearing a burka so he didn't get those urges?? lol.

Sometimes this place (DU) drives me crazy.

[phleshdef]

208. There is nothing wrong with that.

You don't know who else was in the room, you don't know the context, you know NOTHING about it beyond a snapshot. You have a sick mind.

[My Good Babushka]

178. Evil unto him who thinks evil of it. nt.

[TeeYiYi]

186. He doesn't appear to have much on in the way of pants, either...

That said, I'm not sure this is a situation that's anyone's business outside that of the Smith family.

Willow is 13. She probably has a crush on this guy. Maybe more...



Moises Arias is a long-time family friend of the Smiths. If anything beyond a friendship has transpired between Willow and Moises, I would suspect that Will and Jada already know about it and have counseled their daughter accordingly.

Whatever the intimacy level between Willow and Moises, I highly doubt that the kid is stupid enough to rape the daughter of one of Hollywood's most powerful families.

To imply that Will and Jada Pinkett Smith don't know what goes on with their daughter is to suggest that they are either too stupid, or too self-absorbed to care about Willow's welfare. For anyone paying attention, the history of this family tells quite a different story.

Willow Smith is an extremely independent individual and I choose to respect her autonomy. Yes, she's 'only' 13, but she's vibrant, creative and very talented; her energy shines and it does so within the purview and close management of her parents.

The idea that she might be enamored with a 20-year-old friend of the family isn't really a stretch to imagine. I trust her parents to guide her through the hormone years. If Moises is a threat to Willow... if he's a predator and Willow has suffered in any way for it, I wouldn't want to be him.

It's clear that Will and Jada love and protect their children. The details should be left up to Jada and Will...and Willow.

I think they've got this!

TYY

[sendero]

188. If you have time or energy...

.... to waste on this might I suggest you GET A LIFE.

[StarryNite]

195. You're here posting...

just sayin'...

[sendero]

198. I'm here posting because..

.... this fucking idiotic thread won't go the fuck away. It's absolutely pathetic to give two shits about what some random kid does.

[herding cats]

205. I don't get what's wrong with the photos

To me they look like candid shots of people hanging out. I don't see anything sexual in them. There's no contact between the two or anything sexy about the photos.

What I do have a problem with is people saying these photos somehow make Willow a slut, or that she's going to become a slut. Where did that come from?

[phleshdef]

207. People who jumped to sexual conclusions about the photo have SICK minds.

Geez man. I thought I'd seen it all. Though I don't recall being shirtless (mainly because being so skinny, I wasn't comfortable being shirtless), I can't count how many times I've been in similar situations when I was young teenager-young 20 something guy, hanging out with my best friends who had little sisters and little brothers. They'd come in and hang out while we were doing whatever. I'm almost certain I've even been on the same bed with girls just as young when I was probably just as old, watching tv, with my friend sitting on a chair or in the floor or something. Its not a big deal.

Come to think of it, my wife's sister who is 15 years younger than me has probably sat on the same bed or couch that I was on, wearing pajamas and such. Its completely innocent. There was nothing sexual about it.

People need to get their minds out of the gutter and stop jumping to conclusions.

[Rex]

213. I agree 100%

Is this Democratic Underground or Perverted Minds Underground? This thread is a real eye opener. In a very sad way.

[McCamy Taylor]

216. Pretty Baby? Taxi Driver? Lolita? Art is not life.

[Harmony Blue]

223. You don't take chances with the safety of your own children

that is my opinion.