How Patriarchy affects men, a self perpetuating cycle of denial and excuses.

[Humanist_Activist]

This was something that popped into my head yesterday, mostly after having a brief conversation with my fiancee about this time of year. Mother's day is coming up, and its hard for me, going to visit my mom at her gravestone, this is the second Mother's day since she's passed, and its not getting any easier, I'll say that much.

Anyways, yesterday I told my fiancee that I was proud to be a "Mama's Boy". And I realized that I was sincere about it, rather than sarcastic, but I still had a rush of...shame and guilt about being one. But it ended up getting me thinking about that term, and the negative connotations it has in so many circles within the larger culture, especially for teenage boys and men. Contrast it with "Daddy's girl" which is decidedly more positive, though sometimes portrays the daughter as being spoiled, but at least half the time deserves it. It seems to me like expectations here are insulting to both, boys and men aren't expected to lean on their mothers for help or support, and girls and women are infantilized to the point where they need their fathers to support them, and both behaviors are expected.

One thing I want to make clear, this post has nothing to do with feminists, and everything to do with the behavior of men and women who perpetuate Patriarchy, particularly men who have a problem with other men. This is about gender roles, and the reinforcement of stereotypes that oppress not just women, but also men, and even worse, gives men more freedom to become oppressors.

I can easily point out the obvious things, as others have posted, about how women shouldn't pay for dinners, men should be breadwinners, etc. But discussing those obvious double standards and inequalities are like beating a dead horse. No, I want to get a little more personal than that, and a little more insidious and subtle.

There are little cultural quirks that people pick up from others, either within their family or outside it that reinforce many things, particularly about gender roles, that can have negative consequences. Much of this is macho culture of a sort, something I never really understood personally, but have been a victim of all the same. This includes discouraging healthy emotional outlets for boys, such as crying, while outright encouraging aggression. I remember being beaten in Middle School damn near every day, and when my mother confronted the Principal about it, he simply said "Boys will be boys."

Its this combination of excusing bad behavior plus encouraging males to repress emotions that I think causes quite a few societal problems. Even worse, males aren't encourage to seek help for their problems, or indeed connect emotionally with anyone outside of who they marry. We are barely out of the 50s mentality here, look back to the term "Mama's boy" which is considered a slur by many people, but if you think about it, aren't sons supposed to try to seek any type of support they can get from either parent? Why would it matter if they are 5 years old or 35 years old? If they need the help or the shoulder to cry on, there should be no shame attached to it.

The biggest issue is this, Patriarchy discourages true free expression and true individualism, it encourages us to be trapped in mazes of expectations based on our gender, and one wrong term makes you a pariah. Half of this oppression comes from parents, which is the real tragedy, the people who will have the biggest influence in how you will be as an adult can also emotionally damage you in incalculable ways before you even understand what is done, and it wouldn't be on purpose.

Men are expected to be seekers or predators when it comes to sex, women are to be targets, choosy, and submissive, again, an example of Patriarchy in action. This excuses the actions of the men while shifting the responsibility to the women, this is a big part of rape culture.

A side note, about Men's Rights Activists, a word of advice, stop blaming feminism for what the Patriarchy perpetuates. All I hear from them is complaints about how women are favored on some issues at the expense of men. They seem to forget that this favoritism only exists because it reinforces traditional gender roles and stereotypes.

Feminism is liberation and equality for both women and men, both should embrace it.

So this is my late night train of thought.

[BainsBane]

1. Excellent post

An articulate explanation of how patriarchy hurts men as well as women.

[Humanist_Activist]

2. People seem to forget that oppression can come in different forms...

some are easy to pick out, others are much more subtle, but can, in their own way, be as devastating, at least on an individual level.

This is particularly true, in the context of this thread, when it comes to gender roles, expectations of the same, and also sexuality. Misogyny, Homophobia, Transphobia, even certain types of Misanthropy or Misandry(that reinforces traditional stereotypes, of course) can be linked together with Patriarchy.

For example, claiming that men can't help themselves when they behave badly(boys will be boys), whether its domestic violence or rape, etc. Bull-fucking-shit, and who perpetuates this? Other men of course, because it makes them feel better about their own bad behavior. And the reverse is true as well, men can't ever be victims of such things, man up, suck it up, grow some balls, etc. Those are the stereotypes that Patriarchy supports.

[BainsBane]

3. Society more broadly perpetuates it

women as well as men. By becoming aware of the ways patriarchy enforces artificial and limited expectations on men and women, we can start to do change those relations in ways that free all genders.

You're correct that many critics of feminism, and MRAs in particular, imagine that feminists don't care about the ways in which society enforces roles on men. That may be true of some feminists, but many care a great deal about those issues, particularly mothers working to raise their sons in ways that teach them to treat women as full human beings but also free their sons to create their own ideas of what it means to be a man.

The boys will be boys message is particularly pernicious , and I am others have observed it presents a particularly negative view of men, as though there were something natural about predatory behavior. I don't believe that. While a certain percentage of the population is predatory, that is not the natural human condition of men or women. I also agree with your assessment of the pernicious effects of messages about "manning up, growing some balls," etc. Just as I don't like gendered terms that demean or limit women ("emotional," "hysterical," "slut" or "prude&quot I consciously seek to avoid those sorts of expressions about men. Such ideas as manifested through language limit all of us as human beings. We can be far more than the narrow gender roles society imposes on us. By working to break down patriarchy, we can free men, women, and those of other gender identities to live authentic lives of their own making.

I suspect that the strong relationship you have with your mother is part of what enables you to value women and see the ways that patriarchy limits you as well.

[Humanist_Activist]

4. On a lighter note, my preferred term to call anyone is "asshole" nothing gendered about that...

everyone has one and they all stink!

[Shankapotomus]

5. K & R nt

[Locrian]

6. if you think about it

If you think about this in terms of "dominator" and "partnership" cultures it actually makes even more sense. Excellent book that talks about this:

The Chalice and the Blade: Our History, Our Future, Riane Eisler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riane_Eisler)

Eisler proposes that we need new social categories that go beyond conventional ones such as religious vs. secular, right vs. left, capitalist vs. communist, Eastern vs. Western, and industrial vs. pre- or post- industrial, which she notes do not describe the whole of a society's beliefs and institutions. She points out that societies in all these categories have been repressive and violent, and that a road map to a more equitable and less violent social structure requires a new frame of analysis that describes social features that are ignored or marginalized in conventional analyses, particularly the social construction of the foundational parent-child and gender relations.[4]

She coined the term dominator culture to describe a system of dominance hierarchy ultimately backed up by fear or force. One of the core components of this system of authoritarian rule in both the family and the state is the subordination of women — whether in Nazi Germany, Khomeini's Iran, or in earlier cultures where chronic violence and despotic rule were the norm. She analyzes the androcracy (governance of social organization dominated by males) of Indo-European and other societies, versus what she proposes was a partnership model (as distinct from matriarchy) for the social organization of Neolithic Europe and the later Minoan civilization that flourished in prehistoric Neolithic Crete.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Chalice-Blade-History-Future/dp/0062502891/ref=sr_1_sc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1399547832&sr=8-1-spell&keywords=chalice+and+the+blace

[TBF]

7. I love this line -

"Feminism is liberation and equality for both women and men, both should embrace it."

Excellent OP!

[BainsBane]

28. indeed

Kicking so more have the opportunity to read it.

[The2ndWheel]

8. "Daddy's girl" is portrayed as a positive?

[Supersedeas]

30. Who came up with that?

[weissmam]

9. Bottom Line

the so called Mens activists all have small dicks (both literally and figuratively) , pretty simple same thing with gun nuts

[IronLionZion]

10. Has anyone else noticed that women have gotten increasingly aggressive

or even predatory when it comes to sex? Also with physical violence. I don't know about those who are always trying to act macho. Doesn't seem like a good way to accomplish things.

Defying gender roles is fine. My favorite part of feminism is equal protection. More women are getting prosecuted and punished for violent crimes including sexual violence, and that is a good thing towards defeating the patriarchal myth that women are weaker and must be the victims.

Unfortunately these crimes are happening more often, but fortunately there's better legal/moral support to report and prosecute more of them.

Another thing I've noticed with the gender roles is that there is increasing societal pressure to be more aggressive/dominant regardless of gender. And anyone who is not, or exhibits submissive or passive behavior is looked down upon, regardless of gender. Even with the advent of feminism, I see a glorification of masculine personality traits and derision of feminine personality traits. I'm not sure who is promoting this nonsense but think everyone is losing. Patriarchy supporters want women to be feminine, they should not be claiming that feminine is a negative thing. Feminists promote choice and being your authentic self, and should not be claiming that one's choice to be feminine is a negative thing.

For example, a common insult for opponents of our president is to call him the first female president, because of his support for women's and glbt rights issues and equal opportunity/pay, and being married to a strong confident woman.

[Orrex]

13. I understand that there are actually roving bands of feral women

They've been known to castrate men with their teeth. THEIR TEETH!!!!!1!

[IronLionZion]

14. Yeah, with people like that, who needs Pacu fish? nt

[redqueen]

16. You've touched on something that radical feminists try to highlight.

The sentiment goes: We don't want equality with men. We want liberation from patriarchy.

The patriarchy is the source of the idea that dominance = strength and success, and submission = weakness and failure. It associates dominance with men, and submission with women. In the rush to be equal to men, many women have strived to to take on the role of oppressor, right alongside the men at the top.

This is why radical feminists don't prioritize equality with men. We prioritize the destruction of the patriarchy.

In a perfect world we should of course all be equal. But equality within a patriarchal system changes little.

[The2ndWheel]

17. Destruction would be strength and success?

[redqueen]

18. What? nt

[The2ndWheel]

19. I'm not sure if the patriarchy is the source of the idea

The patriarchy is the source of the idea that dominance = strength and success...

This is why radical feminists don't prioritize equality with men. We prioritize the destruction of the patriarchy.

Destroying the patriarchy, dominating it into submission, would be considered a success, and a show of strength.

[redqueen]

20. Your post makes absolutely no sense. nt

[IronLionZion]

22. Destroying something does not have to mean dominating it into submission.

Societies have dismantled oppressive legal constructs like apartheid while supporting truth and reconciliation without taking punitive measures.

[The2ndWheel]

23. Doesn't have to mean that, but it can

Some societies have dismantled oppressive legal constructs through truth and reconciliation without punitive measures, some have not. A lot depends on time and place.

Factor in that the patriarchy is global in scope, and shapes so much of how, why, and what we think, it'll be difficult either way. Add to that the women who rise up within the patriarchy, and that makes things more complicated.

[IronLionZion]

21. What you said makes sense

I've been skeptical of people who promote dominance, it seems like it continues to promote patriarchy. In that world, the only people who would be happy with "equality" are naturally dominant people.

I hope you get liberation from patriarchy soon. I'd like to see less dominance "man up, grow some balls" type of attitudes across the board.

[Humanist_Activist]

26. I think the most important thing to realize is much of the patriarchy is cultural...

rather than legal. You cannot sue it away, you can't fight it with traditional weapons.

What should be asked for is a cultural shift, and those can be very slow or very fast, depending on the society.

Equality within a patriarchal system is impossible, because the two genders, by definition, are NOT treated equally in a patriarchy, the individual is treated as they are expected to act within their assigned gender roles, whether they fit or not. Its destruction is necessary, and it starts at home.

[redqueen]

27. "You cannot sue it away, you can't fight it with traditional weapons."

Exactly. That's exactly why radical feminism focuses on the root cause of this destructive system.

You can't make rules or laws to force people to stop raising their children to maintain this status quo. You can't force adults to stop believing the crap is 'natural' and therefore immutable or sacrosanct. But you can challenge outdated ideas when you have the opportunity, raising awareness as you go.

[redqueen]

11. Excellent post.

[PasadenaTrudy]

12. My boyfriend

agrees with you

[AverageJoe90]

15. Lots of truth here.

Feminism is liberation and equality for both women and men, both should embrace it.

So this is my late night train of thought.

This, times infinity.

[ancianita]

24. This is a great book on how to raise boys that are not patriarchalists or dominators. I re-aligned

some of the flaws in my thinking about how to raise my son from it. I think it should be required reading for all new parents, no matter the gender of their child.

[ancianita]

25. +1

[Supersedeas]

29. We are tired of patriarchal excuses

[grahamhgreen]

31. Night Train!

[BainsBane]

32. I have seen some of these issues raised in the men's group

but in ways that differ from your own interpretation. Many members there deny the existence of patriarchy, while simultaneously decrying narrow conceptions of what it is to be a man. They refuse to consider that those gender roles come from patriarchy itself and instead appear to blame women--or try to enter into some contest about how they feel themselves to be more oppressed than women.
I wish some of those members would reflect on your post and understand that it is a single system that hurts all of us. Whether they want to call it patriarchy or something else, these are social constraints that no longer serve human kind and instead unnecessarily limit all of us.

[Humanist_Activist]

33. As I said above, its cultural more than anything else, its also self-perpetuating...

There isn't a group of men out there who meet behind closed doors, in cigar smoke filled air conspiring to make sure men stay as men and women stay in the kitchen. It doesn't work like that, much of it is conditioning, cultural conditioning. Even those who are victimized by the patriarchy, both men and women, don't recognize it because the conditioning is ingrained at this point, its second nature.

That makes it so much harder to fight against, and so much harder for people to recognize.

I think what people forget is that the conditioning itself, the contents of it, actually changes over time, due to cultural changes, for example, perceptions of how people should act or dress change with fashions, boys used to wear dresses up to a certain age back 100 years ago or so. All patriarchy does, really, is emphasize gender differences, and make sure that which is currently considered masculine is reinforced as dominant, and that which is considered feminine is portrayed as submissive and inferior.

[davidn3600]

35. The core is the belief that anything "feminine" is weak

That's really all you need to do to perpetuate a patriarchy culture.

And even a lot of women who are die-hard feminists fall victim to it when they feel they have to act like a man or feel forced to do male activities in order to feel equal....which unintentionally perpetuates the idea that masculinity is superior. In other words....When women simply act like men, it doesn't raise femininity to the masculine level. When a woman does this, she leaves femininity behind and simply takes on masculine traits (ie: a tomboy). This is acceptable to most in our society because society views this as an upgrade, for lack of a better word.
Now when you go the other way (a male takes on a feminine trait), society views that as a downgrade. If a boy for example plays with girls toys or wants to do ballet, he faces social ridicule. Some may even question his sexual orientation.

And that's where feminism loses me. Because I don't really feel like it's attacking what needs to be attacked. The focus seems to be simply to put women into male roles and then call that equality. That strategy will not crush the patriarchy. The only way to crush the patriarchy is to make femininity equal to masculinity. And when you look at JUST THAT...we really haven't moved much from the 1950s. But in the future, if we make femininity and masculinity equal...the categories cease to exist. That's when you have true gender equality.

[Gravitycollapse]

36. "And that's where feminism loses me." - Actually, you've lost feminism.

Because trying to turn every woman into a tomboy is only feminism in your mind.

Learn how to deconstruct. Feminism and masculinity are dichotomous constructs explaining behavior which exists along a boundless, fluid continuum.

Women don't need men telling them they should just "be more feminine" or that trying to be masculine in any way is somehow denying their nature.

[davidn3600]

37. Did you even understand the point I was making?

When a society reaches true gender equality...the masculine and feminine categories disappear. Society is no longer concerned with them anymore. The constructs no longer exist. The boundaries are removed. Im not talking about nature. Im talking about a society where everyone is free to fill whatever role they feel is right for them.

When someone says, "you are acting like a girl" it will be no different than when someone says, "you are acting like a man." But today, one is an insult, and one is for praise. You can have congress at 100% women. But if being a "girl" is considered weak...you will still have patriarchy.

[Gravitycollapse]

38. I know exactly the point you were trying to make.

Which is feminism lost you. Like it's your chauffeur or something.

[davidn3600]

39. It's a figure of speech

Im not going to sit here all night and argue with you over semantics and labels. It seems you hunt through my posts looking for any way you can twist my words and insult me.

If you want to discuss the substance of my posts, fine. Otherwise, Im moving on...

[BainsBane]

41. That chauffeur can go to Timbuktu

I'll pitch in for the cab care.

[BainsBane]

40. Your argument once again is that feminism is bad

Surprise, surprise. This OP sails over your head because as usual you can't conceive of a world in which women are not at fault. You do not know a single thing about feminism because your refuse to listen to any of us. Where have you heard anyone argue they want to be just like men? What does that mean anyway? And if they have, why the fuck is that a problem to you? Are they not staying in their place? Competing against you for jobs? Showing themselves better educated and more competent than you? Is that what acting like a man is? Or is the tomboy reference about her appearance, that she doesn't dress as you think she should, or keep her hair long and face sufficiently made up? Are these feminists you so resent as masculine lesbians who have the nerve to form partnerships with other women and not give a shit about the male gaze?

Just an FYI about me: I'm a fairly girly women: wear make up, like nice clothes and jewelry, and curl my long hair. Even without those trappings, no one would mistake me for a man. But I take shit from no one. You might consider me being "like a man" because I speak my mind and don't defer to every idiotic thing that comes out of any random guy's mouth. Too bad. My life is my own, as is that of every other women on the planet. How they dress, comport themselves, and whom they love is precisely none of your business. If they want to dress like the butchest lesbians in creation, that is THEIR business entirely.

You can't even engage at the level of this OP, so you work to bring it down to your level of typical rants about how bad feminists are. It's always one thing after another with you. They don't look after men like they are supposed to. They have the nerve to work for women's rights, when if they cared about "equality" they would understand their role was to fight for the rights of men who should be able to sit back and have everything handed to them. Now they are seeking to act like men. What a steaming load of bullshit.

You:

And that's where feminism loses me. Because I don't really feel like it's attacking what needs to be attacked. That strategy will not crush the patriarchy.

1) Redqueen speaks in this thread precisely about what you claim feminists do not do, working to break down patriarchy. You naturally have not read that because you don't actually care what real feminists think. Instead, you base your ideas entirely on anti-feminist stereotypes.

2) It's not your business to decide how women should do feminism. As much as you think women are responsible for following your command, we are not. We are free people entitled to frame issues as WE want. There are many different kinds of feminists who hold different understandings of what feminism and equality means and carry out different strategies. There is no monolithic feminist movement. None of them are compelled to follow your dictates of what you think feminists should do.

Here's a news flash. While I certainly don't speak for all feminists and only for myself, I've seen enough responses to your posts by feminists on this site to have a pretty strong hunch they would not be even slightly interested in "keeping you." By all means, stay "lost." At this point I would be shocked if you showed any signs of being anywhere else.

Believe me, this feminist can think of nothing I would want less than to be like you, and I would not be surprised if dozens of other women on DU felt the same way. Your precious masculinity is safe. You and the OP represent opposite ends of the spectrum of what it means to be a man and a liberal. He wrote a thoughtful, self-reflective post that didn't demonize half the population; he represents the best of what it means to be a liberal, intelligent, and caring man. I have nothing but admiration for him and wish him a long and happy life with his fiance.

[davidn3600]

42. Let me just be very clear from now on...

...when you twist the words in my post and twist what I'm trying to say, which you do CONSTANTLY....im not going to reply to you.

I'm not playing that game anymore.

I don't need the approval of HOF in order to get through my day.

When you want to have a civilized discussion without the insults and condescending attitude, im game. But until then...goodbye.

[nomorenomore08]

43. "...put women into male roles..." Which is only one facet of many. I don't see how feminism is so

monolithic that you can reduce it to this one aspect.

[Puzzledtraveller]

34. **yawn**

[Squinch]

44. I don't know how I missed this, but it's great. The only way that the men on DU who bemoan

the heavy burden of manliness are going to lose that burden is if they change. They themselves. And if they change the way they speak to other men.

Women aren't part of this. Men have to do this.

Sadly, you can see from some of the responses that many would rather complain a lot about how hard it is to fill the role of the male, but your saying this gives me hope.

[Humanist_Activist]

45. That's the one thing I couldn't relate to...

I'll be honest and say that most of my life, most of my friends were girls and women, guys were fun to hang out with, girls I could talk to. I was taunted in school for being "sensitive", gay and "girly man" which are the worst insults to call a boy. Thankfully this taunting only occurred among my peers, my mother was the one who called me sensitive, and she said it was a good thing, my dad, being an introvert and sensitive himself, was mostly silent outside of quiet support.

What ultimately needs to happen is either the abolishing of gender definitions in "masculine" and "feminine" or redefining them as something individual rather than divided into the genders.

[Squinch]

46. I imagine that it was because of your parents'

modeling that you were able to hold onto the sensitivity as you grew older. Imagine if all boys had a role model or two in their lives.

I agree with you about individual rather than gender, but I think we have a long, long way to go before we get there.

[Humanist_Activist]

47. Yeah, its slow, far too slow, maybe it will accelerate at some point...

I will say, and I'm being honest here, that until I was an adult, and I do mean past the age of 25, I had huge self esteem issues related to my gender, I felt inadequate as a man.

Parents can only do so much, after all, they can support you, but if you can't find others that are like minded, then it becomes isolating.

It wasn't until much later that I realized that the only person who I ultimately answer to is myself, so perhaps I should put them in charge for once and accept myself on my terms, and not someone else's.