Bye-bye, whiny white dudes: Tucker Carlson, Tal Fortgang and the weakening grip of entitlement

[DonViejo]

Bye-bye, whiny white dudes: Tucker Carlson, Tal Fortgang and the weakening grip of entitlement

The relevance of jerks like Fortgang and Carlson has never been more tenuous -- which is why they're whining harder

KATIE MCDONOUGH

Princeton University freshman Tal Fortgang is the current face of white dude entitlement, but he’s not the only reminder we have right now about what happens when sheltered boys enter the world feeling that they’re owed something and believing that their actions don’t have consequences.

Call it whatever you’d like. Toxic masculinity. Frat mentality. Patriarchal bullshittery. But put really simply, the problem is that our culture doesn’t generally encourage boys to feel compassion or curiosity beyond a very narrow sphere of their experience, and then some grow up to be terrible jerks.

And the pathetic thing is that a smug and racist editorial written by a college freshman with a tiny baby brain — a piece that should have died on the pages of a college newspaper but was embarrassingly propped up as legitimate commentary by Time magazine — is a comparatively benign example of what happens when boys are raised not to think much about other people.

Epidemic levels of sexual violence on college campuses, the racist misogyny that characterizes so much of fraternity life, the male politicians who spout off about “legitimate rape,” the high school and college football coaches who ignore reports of sexual assault to shield their players from accountability — these are all part of the same problem.

more
http://www.salon.com/2014/05/08/bye_bye_whiny_white_dudes_tucker_carlson_tal_fortgang_and_the_weakening_grip_of_entitlement/

[randome]

1. They're all going down and nothing can stop it.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]

[Enrique]

2. +1

a college freshman with a tiny baby brain — a piece that should have died on the pages of a college newspaper but was embarrassingly propped up as legitimate commentary by Time magazine

[lunasun]

51. +1

[badtoworse]

3. I wouldn't call it whining.

IMO, it's a refusal to accept the premise that one would have failed or been far less successful if they had not born a white male. In essence, that amounts to allowing someone else to define your own sense of self worth. No one should ever do that

[Enrique]

5. it's an exaggerated preoccupation with one's self-worth

it's the cluelessness shown in that Tal Fortgang essay, where he is so preoccupied with his self-worth that he fails to even begin to understand the important issues about privilege.

[badtoworse]

14. Framing the issue as privilege creates a conflict that cannot be resolved.

Leaving the trust fund babies aside, there are many people who started life with little or nothing but were very successful. I'll cite my parents as an example. My mother grew up dirt poor in what is now Slovenia and came over when she was 6 with literally nothing. My father was orphaned at 8, never went to high school and he too started life with nothing. Both worked various jobs and ultimately, my father had a successful career as an insurance agent. My mother stayed at home and raised me and my brother. By any standard, they were enormously successful in life. I attribute their success to having a strong moral compass, working hard and never giving up. I don't see where either of them enjoyed any privilege despite the fact that they lived in a different era.

There are many people like my parents and asking them to attribute their success to privilege is asking them to diminish their sense of accomplishment and their sense of self worth. IOW, they got where they are because they were white and their efforts had little to do with it. That's just not going to happen and pushing that meme is only going to create animosity.

I don't believe that pushing the "white privilege" argument serves anyone's interest. Besides the animosity, I believe it reinforces a defeatist attitude, that says "because I'm not a white male, I can't succeed".

[1StrongBlackMan]

23. Let me ask you ... ...

are you okay with arguing that someone born into money is born into privilege, as their wealth meant their not having to struggle as your "nothing having" parents did?


Clearly you are; but are you also okay with, or willing to accept that wealthy person arguing that you should not raise the issue of their wealth as a privilege because "serves anyone's interest", as it would be "asking them to diminish their sense of accomplishment and their sense of self worth" and it "reinforces a defeatist attitude, that says 'because I'm not a wealthy, I can't succeed'?"

What's different?

[badtoworse]

28. The wealthy person's situation is a little more complicated

Being born into wealth fits the description of privilege, for sure, but a sense of accomplishment and self worth is something that is earned regardless of your economic station. There are trust fund babies who grow up to be wealthy bums and don't accomplish anything. IMO, being born wealthy raises the bar in terms of what justifies a sense of accomplishment and self worth.

[JustAnotherGen]

50. What if you

are black, female, and born into affluence/wealth?


Does that shift the prism?

I feel more in alignment with poor black people than I do - say - someone like Tucker Carlson.

I feel more in alignment with Harold Ford - than I would Jay Z.

[badtoworse]

85. "Does that shift the prism? "

The short answer is no. You can still be a wealthy bum and you still have to earn your sense of accomplishment.

[hfojvt]

261. one trouble is with the "sense of accomplishment"

For example, I happen to have had the son of a bank president in one of my classes. Arrogant and dismissive of the poor, he was. He had worked in a factory one summer and said "anybody can do those jobs".

He got an A in my class and was going to get a degree - on a daddy scholarship.

Okay, so he really does "work" a little to get that degree, and then gets his VP job from his dad, or from his dad's connections and takes his rightful place at the top, or near the top and from there he "works" to get to the top.

Now with dad retired, HE is the Bank President.

And he thinks "I worked to get where I am".

Which he did - in some ways.

But in many other ways, he got where he was by his family advantages - the college expenses paid by parents, the initial job he got through family connections, even his summer jobs.

Important for him to recognize the ways he was "born on 3rd base" instead of deluding himself into thinking he pulled himself up by his own bootstraps and everybody else can too.

To complete the analogy though, it seems to me that the advantages, such as they are, to maleness or white skin are less like being born on 3rd base than they are being born perhaps three feet away from home plate - not even enough of an advantage to guarantee a single.

[badtoworse]

262. I can't disagree with anything you posted

To justify a sense of accomplishment, your bank president's son would need to achieve things in areas where did not enjoy such an advantage or use his position to do things that benefit people who are less fortunate than he is.

[JustAnotherGen]

270. I don't know

I think it gave me an edge over other black Americans that did not grow up with the advantages I had. It did not give me an edge over a white male that started at the same point I did.

My paternal grandfather was a graduate of Morehouse in the 19-teens. His father never had less than 100K in the bank. A tremendous amount of money for a man born in the deep South in the Reconstruction Era.

It didn't insulate my grandfather - and it didn't open the door to Wall Street. It did give him a shot to get into the liquor business so he could send his nine surviving children to college ( born over an 18 year period) and the ability to leave all 33 of his grandchildren his "wealth" . . . When we turned 31 and had obtained a 4 year degree. Those were his rules.

Hence why I feel for Harold Ford. TN chewed him up and spit him out - good for him for getting that job on Wall Street that neither his grandfather ( we come from the same type of background) nor mine had a shot in hell at 100 years ago. I don't feel for Mitt Romney. If I have to feel for him or Jay Z - I feel for Jay Z. He's done well for himself - but admire the grit it took him to get where he is.

But he hasn't experienced the polite smile in your face then call you a nigger as you walk away that someone like Harold Ford has. I'd bet Jay Z has never been called uppity.

[1StrongBlackMan]

52. so you're saying ...

(Not to simplify you response; but ...)

If one is wealthy and accomplishes stuff, they are privileged but entitled to their sense of accomplishment and self-worth, giving no thought to the fact that their path was smoothed because of their wealth; but the trust funder that doesn't accomplish anything, they are privileged and not able to claim accomplishment. Right?

I agree with the latter, but not the former.

[badtoworse]

83. I said the bar should be set higher if you are wealthy

To say that you can't justify a sense of self worth and sccomplishment because you are wealthy is not reasonable.

[nomorenomore08]

133. "...can't justify a sense of self worth and accomplishment."

Where did anyone say this? Sounds like a strawman. And believe me, "a sense of self-worth and accomplishment" was the last thing wrong with that kid's essay.

[Cartoonist]

29. The big lie

The biggest lie a white person can say is: "I made it on my own." And I'm not talking about infrastructure. The institutionalized racism of white society smooths the road to success. I am white and I've worked hard all my life, but I know the ease with which I've gotten work owes a lot to white privilege. It may be subtle or it may be obvious, but it's there.

A simple example: I remember being incensed reading the comments of a rich white real estate agent figuratively spitting on minorities who couldn't achieve the same success he had. As if any black man could have had the same access to the corridors of white wealth that he had.

[1StrongBlackMan]

54. I would not say ...

I know the ease with which I've gotten work owes a lot to white privilege.

Because it's really not about "ease" ... It was no doubt still difficult for you to get positions, though probably not as difficult as your Black/woman peer. And those positions were no doubt earned ... just without having to clear the racial/gender bar.

[Supersedeas]

267. As if a white lily could grow out of thin air

all on its own.

[jtuck004]

36. If your white parents are in a department store and steal something and walk out the door next to

a black person and it sets off the alarm, they likely will just continue walking while the black person is stopped.

If your child enters our schools, where about 80 percent of the teachers are white while the classroom is much, much less white, the odds of your black child doing to detention or jail are FAR higher than that of a white kid committing the same offense. And a black kid that has been sent to juvie/jail is about 12% more likely to NOT graduate high school, and 25% more likely to wind up in prison.

If you are white and driving down the road next to a black person, the odds of them being pulled over before you, even if no one is committing a crime, is about 200 times more likely.

If you are black and tried to get a housing loan in 2004-2006, it is very likely you were charged a higher interest rate, even if you had as good or better a job, or as good or better a credit record, and there is a lot of paper out there to prove it, along with a few investigations that documented it. Nothing happened, and those families got screwed along with everyone else.

The point of privilege is that white people don't work any harder than black people, but they are ALLOWED to work. The black person may, at any time, find themselves taken into custody, beaten, or cheated only because of the color of their skin,'

Thus, there is a privilege of freedom that white people have, that black people (and others of color) do not.

It seems to me that "Framing the issue as privilege creates a conflict that cannot be resolved" is an argument that suits white people very well. Because it could be resolved tomorrow if white people would quit giving other white people a pass on fucking over black people.

The real problem is that a lot of these self-righteous assholes like Carlson think it's about them, about all their work - ie. about them. That's where they make their mistake.

It's not about you. It's about the lives that are ruined because a lot of people with the thought process in the argument above largely refuse to treat others as complete human beings.

But, they have the privilege of not doing so because, frankly, they can go on and work hard and pat each other on the back while their black neighbor is being dragged to the hoosegow, mostly for being black.

[nomorenomore08]

135. "Because it could be resolved tomorrow if white people would quit giving other white people a pass

on fucking over black people."

EXACTLY. This "calling it white privilege isn't helpful" bullshit is so incredibly myopic and wrongheaded.

"It's not about you. It's about the lives that are ruined because a lot of people with the thought process in the argument above largely refuse to treat others as complete human beings.

But, they have the privilege of not doing so because, frankly, they can go on and work hard and pat each other on the back while their black neighbor is being dragged to the hoosegow, mostly for being black."

So spot on. Thank you for this post.

[AverageJoe90]

200. There's some truth to that.

Though being a more practically minded person myself, I can't frame it in terms of "privilege" for "whites", at least not in the literal sense which seems to have become so popular in recent years.

And frankly, I *do* agree about Carlson; he IS indeed a self-righteous asshole. So's Fortgang.

[1StrongBlackMan]

214. Since this is all about you ...

If it's not a privilege to not be subjected to that, what would you call it?

[Supersedeas]

269. that's the point...these things actually happen

[Enrique]

55. first of all "creates a conflict"

really, isn't there already a conflict?

Second, "...is asking them to diminish their sense of accomplishment and their sense of self worth."

This really hits it on the head as I see it. How important is that in the scheme of things? In the face of the reality of privilege?

At one extreme is people like Tal Fortgang, for whom their sense of accomplishment is so very precious that they feel the need to get nasty and stupid about it when it gets challenged in the slightest.

I have no evidence that you are anywhere near the extreme Tal Fortgang is, all you did is bring up your parents' sense of accomplishment, you didn't get nasty and racist about it like he did.

I wonder, did you read Fortgang's essay?

[badtoworse]

90. It's about winning people over to your side.

I've never had much success with that by doing things that create or exacerbate animosity. I believe that pushing the "white privilege" meme does that.

I skimmed Fortgang's essay to get the flavor. I can't say I read it carefully.

[redqueen]

110. What you call "pushing the 'white privilege' meme" others call

Trying to get people to see that their experience is not actually the standard, and that we still have a long way to go in addressing racism.

[1StrongBlackMan]

121. Okay ...

So how do you suggest the Privilege issue be framed in such a manner as to spur those receiving the benefit to come onto "my side"? Or, were you referring to avoiding the topic so that we all, man and woman, Black and white, can come together to fight income inequity?

[badtoworse]

156. The framing should be that all of us should enjoy the same basic level of respect and opportunity.

That is not happening; needs to change and should be framed as a fairness issue, not a "you got more than you deserve" or "you would have failed if you weren't white" issue. No need to repeat what I've said in other posts - I'm sure there are many people who recognize the inequity and who would support steps to correct it that are being alienated by what constitutes a personal attack. Sorry, but that's my opinion.

I also thinks there needs to be a reassessment of the causes of the inequity and what can be done to fix it. I don't want to open a can of worms, but I think that black people should focus on things that serves their own best interests regardless of the politics involved. Education comes immediately to mind and I'm thinking of access to better schools. I've lived in the NYC area my whole life (I'm 64) and public schools here have been awful since I was in school. That those schools are the only option available to many black kids in NYC is disgraceful. I was fortunate that my folks could pay NYC taxes and still afford to send me to a private school. I would like to see as many inner city kids as possible have that opportunity, but it's a politically divisive issue and any steps that get proposed are immediately demonized as an attack on public schools. I can't help but wonder who's interests are really being looked out for when that happens. I also wonder why black parents don't make more of an issue about this. (In fairness, there was quite an outcry recently over DeBlasio's efforts to shut down charter schools and the parents demonstrating about reflected an inner city demographic. That kind of a response over being forced to attend crappy public schools needs to become much more common). In summary, access to a quality education is essential to solving this problem. I had that and I believe all kids should have it - why not frame that as an issue and seek an open discussion with all options on the table?

I could go on but I'm not going to. To be sure, institutionalized racism is a big factor in the obstacles black people face, but it's not the only one.

[bravenak]

160. Institutional racism is the BIGGEST factor we face.

Ask us. We will tell you. Without the Biggest hurdle, we could start taking care of the rest. But this needs to happen first for us to benefit fully from the hard work we do. And we work hards as hell and always have in America. But we still get told that we are the problem or that what we think is our problem isn't the the only problem so we need to focus on the 'other' stuff.

Nay i say!!! We need to fix this. Now!!!!! Putting race issues on the back burner has led us to a place where our sons are killed for just being. Our men are arrested and imprisoned in the new slavery of profit corporate prisons while we have been waiting and speaking softly.

I think in your face reality is much better than sugar coating things so as to not make the majority uncomfortable is stupid for us black people to do. We aren't comfortable!!! Nobody sugarcoats stuff for us!!!?
Better to just keep it real and tell the truth and those that find the truth uncomfortable will have to just deal. Just like we have been dealing with oppression for 400 years.
Whats worse? Living a life of oppression, or hearing about it in a way that makes one uncomfortable?

[badtoworse]

175. You have your opinion and I have mine.

I'm not going to get into a debate about what are causes and what are effects.

[bravenak]

181. Ha!

I figured you wouldn't want to get in to that. My reality seems to make you feel uncomfortable.

[1StrongBlackMan]

186. Hmmm ...

I have an opinion on what the problem is that requires him/her to action to upset the (straight) white, male status quo ... it is rejected as divisive.

He/she has an opinion on what the problem is that requires nothing from him/her.

Funny how that works.

Am I to understand that white supremacy (that supports racism and is a system of white privilege) is a problem for Black folks to fix; but by NOT making white folks uncomfortable ... or they (white folks) will continue supporting the white supremacy status quo, by doing nothing.

[bravenak]

188. Thats what i got from it.

Nobody ever want to get into a discussion about 'that stuff'.

[badtoworse]

211. Uncomfortable has nothing to do with it.

Where do you think a discussion about what issues need to be fixed by the "privileged" and what issues need to be fixed by the people impacted by racism would lead? Such a discussion could go on all night without agreement about anything. Besides that, I'm concerned it could get ugly, so I don't want to go there.

I don't believe anyone's hands are completely clean. Let's leave it at that.

[bravenak]

212. Sure.

[nomorenomore08]

250. "Besides that, I'm concerned it could get ugly..."

"I don't believe anyone's hands are completely clean."

Yeah, because "reverse racism" is just as bad as centuries of oppression, don'cha know...

Anybody want to take bets on how long it would take this guy to mention "gangsta rap" or "thug culture"?

[badtoworse]

257. Actually, I was thinking of something completely different

Specifically, teenage pregnancy and single parent households. Can we agree that, irrespective of race, becoming a teenage parent makes it highly likely that the child and parent(s) will live a life of poverty? From what I've seen, the rates of teenage pregnancy in the black community are still nearly double that of white teens. How about children being raised in single parent (usually mothers only) households? The stats I've seen for black kids still have the number at more than 70% compared to about 24% for the population as a whole. Again, I believe this puts black kids at a disadvantage compared to the population as a whole. Maybe you think it doesn't matter and is not a factor in the difficulties black kids face growing up, but I think you're delusional if you believe that. Moreover, this is an issue that the black community owns and needs to address on its own.

As far as the music goes, I really don't care about gansta rap very much one way or the other - I just think it's not very good. I used to like pop music, but the quality there went down the crapper quite some time ago. I mostly listen to classical music now. I have a question for you about that: Beethoven's 9th Symphony was first performed to a sold out house in 1827 and still sells out in a matter of hours, maybe minutes, when a performance is announced. Do you think gangsta rap will do that almost 200 years from now? If you are lucky enough to score tickets to a live performance of the 9th, by all means go and let me know what you think.

[nomorenomore08]

258. Okay, I was being excessively snarky. But what you present as a cause is really more of a symptom.

For instance, the racist (always, from the very beginning) "war on drugs" and the resultant epidemic incarceration of disproportionately black males has a lot to do with family breakdown, and yes, single parenthood. Should we encourage stable families? Of course, and birth control, proper educational funding, and non-stereotypical media depictions of African-Americans will all help with that. When people have the chance to limit the size of their families, and to succeed educationally and vocationally, a lot of this stuff will take care of itself. We all seem to acknowledge that giving people a real chance to make something of themselves, works in developing countries, so why not in this country as well?

Please don't fall back on the bullshit "black people are lazy/promiscuous/etc. etc." framing of the right wing. It's victim-blaming of the worst kind and accomplishes nothing but deepening of negative stereotypes.

[Jamastiene]

273. How can we ever fight institutional racism if we do not discuss

cause and effect? That is exactly where the disconnect is happening. If we do not discuss cause and effect, how can we ever find common ground and find a way that gives equality to everyone?

Personally, I learn more by listening to what people who are different than me tell me that they experience in their lives than I do by telling them how wrong they are. You can't really learn if you don't learn to listen to them. You cannot experience what they experience or know what it is like for them. The best you can do is share your experiences, listen to what they are telling you about their experiences and work together to come up with a solution that provides equal chances for everyone. That is the problem. Everyone doesn't have an equal chance. Everyone isn't treated equally.

[1StrongBlackMan]

107. Additionally ...

Many here are perfectly willing to accept the idea that wealth producing privilege is real, as it make smoother the path to life; but are unwilling to accept that being of the dominant racial/gender group creates a similar smoother path, despite a being able to acknowledge that racism and sexism, create barriers for PoC and women.

[redqueen]

111. And some here work very hard to push the idea that wealth/class is all that matters.

And that women and ethnic minorities really have it pretty good and anyone who says otherwise is a disruptor bent on dividing dems. Nevermind that women and Black people are the most solidly democratic voters

[Supersedeas]

249. that narrow-mindedness about what restricts us as a nation is confining

[Bonx]

116. Your reason is cramping an agenda -nt

[badtoworse]

119. So?

[Bonx]

152. So don't give in :)

Even though you don't seem inclined to.

[nomorenomore08]

132. They were probably still better off than black kids at the same economic level, I have to say.

But of course someone from a middle-to-upper-class background would have economic/class privileges your parents never did.

[eridani]

236. And having been born in years when capital had much less power and inequality--

--was far less pronounced.

[nomorenomore08]

140. It's the mark of a narcissist to take everything personally. Now, most young people are probably

narcissists to a certain extent, though thankfully many of them outgrow it. Unfortunately, Mr. Fortgang seems relatively unlikely to learn or change much, being so goddamn self-satisfied.

[1StrongBlackMan]

9. Isn't it really ...

a refusal to accept that one MIGHT have failed or been far less successful; but for the accident of birth, while ignoring what you already know ... that those lacking your accident of birth REALLY do face head winds that you do not.

I find it interesting that some ("liberals/progressive&quot so readily accept the "No man is an island" ... until it requires access their personal circumstance, especially when viewed through a race/gender-conscious lense.

Put another way ...

"I (white, "liberal/progressive" male) accept that Racism/sexism is real."

"I (white, "liberal/progressive" male) accept that Racism/sexism is serves as an impediment to/negatively affects PoC and/or Women's prospects for success."

"I (white, "liberal/progressive" male) accept that I am not personally or directly, negatively affected by Racism/sexism."

But ...

"I (white, "liberal/progressive" male) refuse to accept that the absence of being negatively affected by Racism/sexism has anything to do with MY prospects for success."

Note: I speak of white, "liberal/progressive" males because white, non-liberal/progressive males have never made the serious representation that they were my/our allies in the struggle of equality; whereas, white, "liberal/progressive" male have/do.

[badtoworse]

18. I believe there are better ways to frame the issue.

Creating the animosity I discussed in Post 14 is not helpful.

[redqueen]

20. People have been talking nicely and politely about oppression for decades.

The time has come to accept the fact that politely asking to be treated as an equal has failed.

Anyone who thinks their bruised ego should be the priority over the effort to finally change some things has some growing up to do.

This is just another version of 'yes, oppression is bad and all I'm sure, but say it nicer or I won't listen to you or help you'.

[badtoworse]

21. We'll just have to disagree about whether "white privilege" is going to accomplish anything.

A bad situation can always be made worse and the "white privilege" argument is a great way to do it.

[1StrongBlackMan]

118. Mirror time! ...

A bad situation can always be made worse and the "white privilege" argument is a great way to do it.

And whom do you think is making the situation worse, those challenging the status quo or those defending it (if only to prevent hurt feelings among allies)?

[redqueen]

124. THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS

That people don't see this for themselves speaks VOLUMES.

[nomorenomore08]

138. It's always telling, which "side" a person seems to sympathize with, isn't it?

Like siding with aggrieved white people, in this case.

[badtoworse]

144. What do you think I'm defending?

I'm not disputing or defending that certain demographics groups face obstacles that other demographic groups do not.

[1StrongBlackMan]

145. True ...

you just don't think it wise for those that face those obstacles to talk about/point out that others don't face those obstacles.

[AverageJoe90]

204. *facepalm*. nt

[bravenak]

210. Cosign.

It's obvious.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

22. all this talk about framing. I'd like to take a picture of these DUers using that tactic and

Frame it and Hang it

[Tuesday Afternoon]

24. the animosity is already there. derp. that you don't recognize it will be your downfall.

[Supersedeas]

266. that's an important point

the animosity is already there

[AverageJoe90]

11. I see what you're saying.

And if Fortgang's piece hadn't been so smug, I wouldn't have had a problem with it. But it WAS; that was the problem.

(Although, sadly, a lot of the stuff being put out by some of these hoity-toity holier-than-thou pseudo-progressive types isn't much better in that department, especially in regards to "People of Color can't be racist" and "all white people are privileged" type bullshit.)

[redqueen]

15. You still just do not get it. nt

[Supersedeas]

268. many are missing the boat entirely

[1StrongBlackMan]

17. As a ...

hoity-toity holier-than-thou pseudo-progressive type, all I will say is:

"Yeah. Uh, huh. Please pass the cornbread."

[redqueen]

19. Did you have a problem with it?

Isn't the first reply to it you saying "bravo" or did I misread?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024918828

[AverageJoe90]

26. My reply to that OP:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024918828#post1

Do note, by the way, that she does have some issue with the way Fortgang went about things. I do as well.
However, though, with that out of the way, it can be admitted that there is a real & very valid frustration felt by people when it comes to this kind of stuff. Did you read Ms. Fisher's piece, btw?

[redqueen]

32. Yep. And yeah there's frustration, and it's real, but it is meaningless.

See post 20.

[AverageJoe90]

39. And? And?

In fact, Malcolm X tried the "rough" approach back in the late '50s, early '60s, by the way. Didn't work for shit.

BTW, I find it all too funny(and not in the "haha!" sense, mind you, but more of the "Hmm....." type), that it wasn't too long Malcolm X rejected his personal racism against white people that he ended up getting his head blown off in Feb. of '65. Why is that, you think? Here's my answer: it's because he began to preach what MLK already had done: peace, love, and unity between the "races". And TPTB didn't like that at all.

[redqueen]

42. You're seriously comparing the phrase "white privilege" with violence and hate.

Yep. I don't think I have anything more to say to you.

[AverageJoe90]

44. I didn't even say anything about "white privilege" in that post.

Honestly, WTF was that about?

The good Captain Picard sums it up even better:

[redqueen]

48. Just what is it that you think Tap Fortgang was whining about?

Your disingenuousness is so tiring. Bye.

[AverageJoe90]

78. "Your disingenuousness is so tiring." I could say the same for you, after what you just pulled.

I didn't say or imply anything about "white privilege" in that Malcolm X post, and frankly, I think you know it, too. (either that or you're just delusional, I dunno which.)

[1StrongBlackMan]

151. Not to mention ...

his white washing of Malcolm!!!

[redqueen]

153. Yeah, disgusting but hardly surprising.

Now I'm reminded of this quote.

"If you stick a knife in my back nine inches and pull it out six inches, there's no progress. If you pull it all the way out that's not progress. Progress is healing the wound that the blow made. And they haven't even pulled the knife out much less heal the wound. They won't even admit the knife is there."

We can't move forward until people acknowledge that the knife is still there.

[1StrongBlackMan]

150. Correction ...

Malcolm rejected his BIGOTRY against all white individual, while retaining a strong detest for systemic racism AND WHITE SUPREMACY.

Here's my answer: it's because he began to preach what MLK already had done: peace, love, and unity between the "races".

Stop white washing Malcolm!!! He NEVER preached "peace, love and unity between the races", not before his Hajj or afterwards. His message continued to be peace to those peaceful to you, love for those that loved us, and a willingness to accept help from white folks, but make no make, white people could not join or lead within his organization.

[AverageJoe90]

155. "Stop white washing Malcolm!!!" You might wanna tone it down a notch.....no offense.

His message continued to be peace to those peaceful to you, love for those that loved us, and a willingness to accept help from white folks, but make no make, white people could not join or lead within his organization.

Okay, and? That doesn't really contradict what I said, TBH.

[bravenak]

157. It does TBH.

Unity was a Queen Latifah song. Malcolm was not about U-N-I-T-Y.

[nomorenomore08]

170. Unity is all well and good, but not at the expense of other things (like being truthful). n/t

[1StrongBlackMan]

173. Those hostile to full civil ...

and human rights of Black people; people supporting the racial status quo are not peaceful, loving or about unity of/across racial communities.

ETA: And if you can't see where what I said conflicts with what you have said, then you are either being dishonest and are truly ignorant.

And I will not "tone it down a notch" ... Not when you are willfully misrepresenting what the Black cultural icon, Malcolm X stood for. No, I will not watch my tone!

[AverageJoe90]

174. "Those hostile to full civil ...and human rights of Black people;" Well, I'm not, for one.

And I doubt you'll find any genuine DUer who is.

No, I will not watch my tone!

That really was only a suggestion, by the way.

[1StrongBlackMan]

182. Yes, you are and yes there are ...

and mind your tongue has always been a "suggestion."

[AverageJoe90]

185. "Yes, you are". Please tell me you're not serious about this shit.

Are you seriously suggesting that I am somehow opposed to Civil Rights for all people? Really?

[AverageJoe90]

191. "so yes, you oppose Civil Rights for all people" Then I'm afraid you don't know jack about me.

Yes, I hate to be harsh, but honestly, get a clue.

(in that "watch you tone" sort of way).

Ah, so I oughta watch my tone. Got it.....not really surprising, TBH. Intentionally or not, you've let slip the true demeanor you've adopted throughout this thread and others in the recent past towards myself.

[1StrongBlackMan]

194. I know you by what you write ...

Ah, so I oughta watch my tone. Got it.....not really surprising, TBH. Intentionally or not, you've let slip the true demeanor you've adopted throughout this thread and others in the recent past towards myself.

You're funny in all your projection. I've been condescending to anyone and everyone that expressing an position contrary to you're and it is me that let slip the true demeanor. It is you that told me to, oh sorry ... suggesting, that I "tone it down a notch" and it is me that let slip the true demeanor.

You've got to be kidding!

[AverageJoe90]

196. "I know you by what you write ..." Given what you've said, no, you clearly don't.

I've been condescending to anyone and everyone that expressing an position contrary to you're

I didn't accuse you of attacking everyone, mind you. But it's rather clear that you have employed this tactic with me, especially with these recent statements of me being supposedly opposed to equal rights for all. Which was nothing more than outright bullshit, and you damn well knew it too(either that or you're completely self-deluded).

and it is me that let slip the true demeanor.

And you certainly did.

You've got to be kidding!

I could say the same fucking thing, especially after that obvious falsehood you spouted about me being supposedly opposed to civil rights. Gimme a fucking break. Gimme a fucking break. If that wasn't a classic troll I dunno what is. But it's clear you're only doing this because you can't stand the fact that someone disagrees with you and is willing to defend his position, and not out of any legitimate grievances.

[1StrongBlackMan]

215. My bad, I mistyped ...

I've been condescending to anyone ...

"I meant YOU'VE been condescending to anyone ..."

I could say the same fucking thing, especially after that obvious falsehood you spouted about me being supposedly opposed to civil rights. Gimme a fucking break. Gimme a fucking break.

Earn a f'ing break ... by explaining how defending white supremacy, as manifested in the systemic racism that IS white privilege.

But it's clear you're only doing this because you can't stand the fact that someone disagrees with you and is willing to defend his position, and not out of any legitimate grievances.

Ifind it funny that the only thing that is "clear" to you are the words you right and those that agree with you.

[AverageJoe90]

219. .....

Earn a f'ing break ... by explaining how defending white supremacy, as manifested in the systemic racism that IS white privilege.

I wasn't defending white supremacy and you know it. You are fucking LYING and you know it.

[1StrongBlackMan]

225. Can you deny that a system of white supremacy would include ...

white privilege?

Can you argue that racism is not about white supremacy?

When you deny white privilege, you support white supremacy.

[AverageJoe90]

229. "Can you argue that racism is not about white supremacy?" I never have. EOM

[1StrongBlackMan]

232. Now respond to the rest of the post. eom.

[bravenak]

183. Maybe you should stop 'suggesting' things in that patronizing way.

It may help you in the discussion to have a little humility. I 'suggest' you try it.
You might want to free your mind, and the rest will follow.
This song is from me to you.
http://m.

&feature=kp

[AverageJoe90]

187. "It may help you in the discussion to have a little humility."

I'm sorry, but with all due respect, between me and him, I'm not the one who needs a lesson in humility.....I did like the video, though.

[bravenak]

190. You are the one.

I have made that very clear. That's why i posted free your mind. To help you free your mind.
It did not work and 'you're never gonna get it' didn't either.
I am starting to feel bad for you.

[Number23]

218. If I thought that begging and pleading would get you to PLEASE stop participating in threads on race

I'd beg and plead every minute of every day.

But the beauty of you and people like you (and you are so not unique in this regard. Folks like you have been around FOREVER) is that you are wrong and no matter how many times you are TOLD you are wrong, because you feel that you know more than and are superior to the people telling you that you don't know what you are talking about now, tomorrow or ever, it won't make a bit of difference to your beliefs or your behavior.

So all the rest of us will have to suffer with you trolling every single goddamned thread on race in this forum knowing that there is nothing that can be done about it. Except to ignore you. Which I sincerely hope that everyone will do from this point on. Because not only do you not get it, you take utter joy, pride and delight in not getting it and making sure that everyone here knows how unimportant and insignificant you think "it" is.

[Number23]

237. So YOU are having to explain to US, the poor miseducated Negroes here, how racism works?

You are wise beyond measure in your benevolence and we are all better for your example.

If you are so incensed and so put out by that accusation there is definitely something you can do about it. STOP TROLLING EVERY SINGLE FUCKING RACE THREAD. Amazing how that simple act could in one swoop (eventually) remove the taint that you toss on yourself at EVERY single given opportunity when you toss your arrogant ignorance into damn near EVERY GODDAMNED THREAD on race.

[Squinch]

259. Do you not understand how hard it is for him to have to tell you over and over how wrong you

are in your interpretation of your experiences about which he knows squat???

Sometimes DU can be so cruel to the honest, sincere crusaders for ignorant viewpoints. Buddy.

[Number23]

264. I know. Apparently what everyone needs is a white man to explain their life experiences to them

That's the way things have been done for the past 400 years and look how great that's all worked out for everybody?

[Squinch]

265. The stubbornness of that one, in his insistence that he knows all about the experiences of

the groups he doesn't belong to, is kind of astonishing.

ETA: I am a little jealous that he said this to you: "And if you can't bother to open your eyes then I'm not gonna bother with you anymore."

I am squeezing my eyes shut real tight so maybe he will decide not to bother with me anymore too!

[kwassa]

246. The only utterly confused person in this thread ...

is you. Over and over, in thread after thread, you attempt impose your very incorrect and unsustainable viewpoint on white privilege on DU.

You presume to know something you don't know, and refuse to listen to anyone else, disregarding the viewpoint of every person of color that has expressed themselves in this thread. You, as a white male, know better than them.

Let me make it crystal clear, not that I really expect you to understand; if you don't believe in white privilege, and don't see it's existence, than you really are not in full support of civil rights, but only conditional support of the part of civil rights you happen to agree with.

And I know you have me on ignore, and I don't care. Everyone else can see what you are doing here.

[Jamastiene]

274. You literally just told him to "watch his tone."

That is an atrocious thing to say to someone who simply disagrees with you. You are very condescending in both the sexism threads and the racism threads. You constantly tell people of both groups what we do and do not experience, instead of bothering to listen or learn. Something tells me you do not want to learn, but instead you want to repeatedly talk in a condescending way to women and persons of color. That is truly disgusting.

[Supersedeas]

247. now there's a rhetorical device...whitewashing Malcolm

[1StrongBlackMan]

248. Intentionally Applied. eom

[redqueen]

4. K&R nt

[Corruption Inc]

6. I see Salon has stooped to the racist name-calling propaganda

Faux news is only going to replace "Whiny white dudes" with younger "whiny black dudes" or "whiny white women".

Faux is a propaganda front for the 1% and they wouldn't get anywhere near as much attention if it weren't for the knee-jerk repuke propaganda responders such as that Salon writer who's only playing to the classic propaganda paradigm of creating some emotional response rather than having a rational discussion.

Whiny Salon writers should try to focus on the actual problem of class war, not some racist BS.

[1StrongBlackMan]

10. That "racist bullsh!t" IS an "actual problem" ...

for me, and every other PoC.

[DonViejo]

13. +1,000...

Please stop! Stop! Stop dealing in facts!

[Tuesday Afternoon]

25. wonder how much these whiny white dudes will like the solution?

and there will be a reckoning ...

[1StrongBlackMan]

46. That may be BIGOTRY; but it's NOT racism ...

Bigotry is "flavor" motivated action; whereas, Racism is "flavor" motivated action plus the institutional power to reinforce that action.

And I can point to numerous places where my mere presence puts me at physical risk ... besides, the last time that I was in Detroit (3 years ago), I saw a bunch of whites walking around that did not have a similar fear as you.

[redqueen]

49. It is pathetic how many people refuse to understand this.

It has been explained a million times and it can be explained a million more and they will cover their ears and close their eyes and insist they don't understand.

[1StrongBlackMan]

59. I responded the other day ...

(admittedly out of frustration) that with allies like this cohort of "liberals/progressives", who needs conservatives - as they are making the same arguments.

That really hit home with the "Walking while White in Detroit" comment!

As if, a white person feeling unsafe walking down a street in a single city (a city where the intra-racial violence rate is off the charts), somehow equals living in a society where the institutional structures exist/act to oppress and frustrate you because of your race or gender.

[redqueen]

80. I guess even though it seems pointless sometimes, it is worth explaining it over and over.

Even though some are choosing to ignore it, others might be actually interested in learning.

[AverageJoe90]

114. Only problem is, that's not quite true.

Yes, People of Color can commit personal racism, too. This is hardly controversial or newsworthy, or whatever(just look at Kamau Kambon, or Louis Farrakhan.....or the average antisemitic Hamas member) That's all you need to know right there).

Of course, you're entitled to hold your opinion as much as I am.....as wrong as it may be.

[redqueen]

120. There is literally nothing better than white men who explain racism and sexism

to ethnic minorities and women.

Literally.



"Personal racism" indeed!

[AverageJoe90]

122. Oh, boo hoo. A fellow feminist disagreed with you on the Internet.

"Personal racism" indeed!

I'm not sure what I can say to something like this.....

[redqueen]

123. Why not explain racism some more?

It is endlessly entertaining, I assure you.

[AverageJoe90]

125. " Why not explain racism some more?" I was thinking the same thing of you, TBH.

In all truthfulness, I don't need to be 'splained to, amiga. I've done my research. And frankly, I think 90% of the problem you have with me comes from the fact that I just happened to disagree with you(maybe a tad strongly) with some of your pet views. It certainly explains the vitriol, and certain other things(remember when you falsely accused me of equating "white privilege" with hatred? ).....

[redqueen]

128. I'm not your "amiga".

Your sudden 180 on feminist threads did not go unniticed. You may think you're convincing, but TBH, you're the opposite.

[AverageJoe90]

130. "You may think you're convincing, but TBH, you're the opposite." I'm sorry you feel that way.

You are, however, quite wrong. There was no "sudden 180" either, by the way, so I dunno where you got that from(and I know you don't have any real proof, either).

[bettyellen]

146. I noticed that too, LOL. Must be the Varshta effect...

a bit of concern of guilt by association maybe?

[redqueen]

154. I dunno, maybe.

There's been a couple like that now. Sure does make you go 'hmmmmmm'

[bettyellen]

159. Noticed it as well. There is one that is basically a parody of a feminist, and I am sure

one day a big nasty flameout will happen because they seem pretty unstable. I am guessing each of them are really 2-3 posters because they plagerize each others posts so often. LOL.

[Squinch]

260. I didn't see any fellow feminists disagreeing with her. Where did you see that?

[bettyellen]

147. Especially when they tell you they have saved a place on the back of their bus for us.....

and think that is something we should actually thank them for.

[AverageJoe90]

199. Honestly, this is pure baloney. PURE baloney. EOM

[bettyellen]

201. I have had enough of your unfounded personal attacks Joe- stop stalking me and calling me a liar.

[AverageJoe90]

202. I didn't say or imply you were necessarily lying, TBH.

But yes, I do think you're wrong(P.S. you're one to talk about stalking, btw: you've done the very same thing you're now accusing me of! Hypocrisy much?)....EOM.

[bettyellen]

205. this is the third time you but yourself into another conversation to call me a liar....

you can try and soft pedal it all you want, but that is in essence wat you are doing and saying here.
GO THE FUCK AWAY JOE, NOT WASTING TIME ON YOU ANYMORE.

Your attention is hostile and unwelcomed. Got it?

[AverageJoe90]

207. "Your attention is hostile and unwelcomed. Got it?" I could've said the same to you.

And frankly, I'm tired of *you* stalking *me*.....and your hypocrisy & problems with honesty in general.

[pipoman]

206. Just FYI

AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service

On Thu May 8, 2014, 07:03 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Honestly, this is pure baloney. PURE baloney. EOM
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4927465

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

this poster is basically calling me a liar without refuting anything I said, a purely personal attack and DU violation- and has actually been stalking me, saying the same thing after all of my posts.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Thu May 8, 2014, 07:13 PM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Disagreeing is not the same thing as a personal attack. Even in the context of the increasingly heated argument this thread has become, this is not a rules violation.
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: He is pointing out that he believes what you posted is not true - that is not calling you a liar. As far as stalking, if you post - expect replies, even those you don't like. If you can't stand the heat ... well, you know.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Worst.
Alert.
Ever.


Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Cry a river...ffs, upset someone takes umbrage with your sexist uncalled for bs? Tough...

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[bettyellen]

209. Gotta love jurors who confuse calling out sexism WITH sexism. LOL. Bravo, juror #7.

[AverageJoe90]

115. See 114. There is a difference between personal & institutional racism. nt

[1StrongBlackMan]

131. We have had that argument before ...

there is no such animal as "Personal Racism" ... At least, not as can be applied to PoC.

Racism is a system of oppression based on race and supported by Person BIGOTRY."

[DonViejo]

12. Don't you just hate it when a white woman...

Last edited Thu May 8, 2014, 10:38 PM - Edit history (1)

writes an article about "whiny white dudes"? That truly shows how racist Katie McDonough, the white author, is!

[Capt. Obvious]

16. Soviet Bear says

[Supersedeas]

184. It's a white privilege beatdown

[pscot]

7. Neither of these guys are really that culturally significant or smart

[Blue Owl]

8. Let 'em sit in their own soiled diapers

n/t

[Harmony Blue]

27. You will probably be the first person I put on ignore

it is a shame since we are both from the bay area.

[HangOnKids]

31. Why?

The OP posted an article from Salon about privilege, do you agree with the likes of Tal and Tucker?

[Coventina]

30. K & R !

[LittleBlue]

33. "The weakening grip of entitlement"- oh really?

Didn't I just see the news that the poorest in this country are in the greatest poverty since the 60s? The 1% are more wealthy than at any time since the tycoon era in the pre-antitrust days.

It's all well and good that Salon can publish some meaningless words. Yay team! Rah rah and all that. Meanwhile the wealthy quietly accumulate more of the nation's wealth and laugh in their gilded palaces.

But put really simply, the problem is that our culture doesn’t generally encourage boys to feel compassion or curiosity beyond a very narrow sphere of their experience, and then some grow up to be terrible jerks.

The men without compassion, the Sheldon Adelsons, the Jamie Dimons, the Kochs, they're multibillionaires who sip $10,000 a bottle wine while they have a good laugh at people like Katie McDonough. These terrible jerks own everything! Including our politicians. Tal Fortgang feels entitled because he is, and probably will make millions himself in a cushy job somewhere.

If this is winning I can't imagine what losing looks like.

[deutsey]

34. +1

[AverageJoe90]

41. I see your point.

Now, to be fair to her, I think Katie McDonough had good intentions in mind with this piece. But we do need to be careful; we can't let ethnic issues be the wedge between us like they were back in the Eighties when Reagan was Prez. Can't let that happen.

[1StrongBlackMan]

73. Why is it so difficult for you to see the wedge already exists

People of Color (and women) have interests beyond those of white males. While our interests intersect at the income inequity issue, they diverge after that (or maybe before that?)?

As I have said before: our helping you accomplish your ends, still leaves us wanting. And history gives us plenty of reason to believe that once we help you accomplish your ends, you will jettison us ... as the status quo, with respect to race/gender/sexual orientation relationships, hasn't changed ... we just have a different white guy to deal with.

And your continued refusal to acknowledge, if not act on, this is what creates the schism and allows others, that have neither of our interests at heart, to exploit said schism.

[AverageJoe90]

82. "Why is it so difficult for you to see the wedge already exists" Never said it didn't.

Although I do have reason to believe that TPTB and their useful idiots are eagerly exploiting that wedge when and where they can. Just look at how many on the right have equated idiots & fools like Noel Ignatiev or the some of the various nutty Tumblr bloggers out there with ALL liberals, for example. They may be bullshitting, but they are using actual fringe examples to try to trick people into believing their lines of B.S.; just like the far-right used the very real actions of Al-Qaeda and Hamas as reasons to stoke prejudice against Muslims in general(when in fact, most of the world's Muslims are decent people overall) a decade ago.

People of Color (and women) have interests beyond those of white males.

Never really argued otherwise, by the way.

[1StrongBlackMan]

112. And yet ...

you time and again seek to deny/minimize the voice of those on the one side of the schism, in favor of the status quo. And refer to those drawing attention to that status quo, fringe "radicals."

So ask yourself, "Who would be the useful idiot" of TPTB ... those challenging the status quo, or those defending it?

[AverageJoe90]

113. I'm afraid if if either of the two of us holding up the status quo, unknowingly or not......

it certainly isn't myself. That's for damn sure.

[1StrongBlackMan]

126. Okay. eom.

[bravenak]

129. Yes it is.

Did you ever get that cornbread?

[AverageJoe90]

134. I prefer country bread rolls myself.....with a side of sawmill gravy. nt

[bravenak]

136. Dangit Joe!!

Listen to the refrain.
http://m.

[1StrongBlackMan]

139. Nope ...

Sorry folks ... that was another "inside joke", that I will let you all in on ...

In my family, we have a cousin that shows up to all the family holiday gathering. He is nice enough; but very passionate about some very off-the-wall ideas.

One gathering, the cousin started doing his thing at the dinner table, and someone responded to him, "Uh huh. That's nice. Please pass the greens."

It has become the family method of acknowledging that someone said something (crazy as hell) without feeding into it.

[bravenak]

141. We have one of those too.

When i saw it i wondered if you knew my uncle Carlos.

[1StrongBlackMan]

142. I'm pretty sure every family has at least one ...

and if all of the conversations around you, have nothing to do with what you are talking about ... well ... you be that family member.

[nomorenomore08]

169. Just stop it. You're pontificating on subjects you obviously know very little about.

I'm a white male who frankly is embarrassed by your posts. Acting like you know more about racism than people who actually experience it is the height of arrogance.

[AverageJoe90]

171. I'm sorry you feel that way. I really am.

But I never claimed to know everything, nor did I imply otherwise. But neither do certain others, and frankly, in the same vein, I'd argue that being a Person of Color does not automatically necessarily make one a seasoned expert on racism, either.

In all honesty, it's about individuals more than anything. For example, I can honestly say that folks like the SPLC, Tim Wise, and the late and great MLK, Jr., as individuals, for example, may very well have(or had, in the case of MLK) a deeper understanding than many of us, myself included. And I don't have a problem with admitting that. Not at all.

What bothers me, if anything, is that certain people have insinuated that I don't really know anything simply because my stated views happen to conflict with theirs, and not for any actual valid reason. Perhaps you may not have noticed, but I certainly have. And that's not cool.

[nomorenomore08]

172. Would it be maybe worth asking *why* your views conflict with theirs?

And maybe being open to the perspectives of people who have more direct experience with the subject (e.g. racism) than someone like you or me (in this case being white guys) would?

[AverageJoe90]

176. It has to do with practicality, to be honest.

Also:

And maybe being open to the perspectives of people who have more direct experience with the subject (e.g. racism) than someone like you or me (in this case being white guys) would?

Not everyone is going to have the same experience: there are some PoC who are fortunate enough that they have not yet had to deal with even structural racism, let alone personal bigotries, and there are indeed a few white folks who actually *have* experienced personal racism.

I myself have been fortunate not to have experienced racism in my daily life; indeed, most of the PoC I have met face to face have been good, honest and decent folks. I have, unfortunately, dealt with racists and other bigots on the Internet. So it does still happen.

[nomorenomore08]

179. Okay, I understand. I think it's more the (possibly unintentional) know-it-all-tone that rubs people

the wrong way. A little humility counts for a lot in these discussions.

[AverageJoe90]

203. I think I see where you're coming from.

And I'll admit I'm not entirely perfect in that regard, if that helps any.

[nomorenomore08]

234. See, as a white guy, I pretty much take for granted that people of color know what they're talking

about when it comes to their experience of racism - unless they're Thomas Sowell or Allen West, but you know what I mean.

Having had a majority-nonwhite group of friends basically my whole life probably has something to do with my perspective. If nothing else, it's shown me that my own life experience as a middle-class white kid is far from universal. What's funny is, in all my years of friendship with various folks, never once have I been told to "check my privilege" or any equivalent thereof, probably because I never gave anyone a reason to do so.

I realize you're well-intentioned, and maybe I was a little harsh upthread. But like I said, a little humility can go a long way, especially when you're a white guy talking about race.

[1StrongBlackMan]

217. This here shows you know nothing of the Black experience ...

Not everyone is going to have the same experience: there are some PoC who are fortunate enough that they have not yet had to deal with even structural racism,

Really? Please stop with this ... Please!

Or better ... Maybe you would like to explain how a PoC, living in America, could possibly NOT experience structural racism?

And please stop with that Black exhibiting "personal racism" crap.

[AverageJoe90]

233. "And please stop with that Black exhibiting "personal racism" crap."

No matter how you may feel about me personally, it's not crap. It DOES happen.

Or better ... Maybe you would like to explain how a PoC, living in America, could possibly NOT experience structural racism?

I won't deny that the *RISK* at least, is always going to be there. (that's actually a point I'd wanted to make). But the honest truth is, not everybody is going to be directly affected by it. Which doesn't really make it any less awful, though.

[1StrongBlackMan]

235. Please explain how a PoC will/could possibly NOT be affected by structural racism. eom

[1StrongBlackMan]

238. Still waiting ...

Still waiting for you to explain how a PoC, can live in America, and not be affected by structural racism.

[1StrongBlackMan]

244. I guess about now you are realizing just how vacuous ...

your argument is; but lack the integrity to admit that this foundational point proves you know far less about racism than you claim.

[1StrongBlackMan]

216. Funny you should mention Tim Wise ...

maybe you should google: Tim Wise + White Privilege ... maybe you will give more credence to what PoC have been saying as "valid", if it comes from a white man.

[BainsBane]

223. You claimed your views were "fact-based" in contrast to

the experiences of many members of the AA group. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4924842

And this isn't to invalidate the personal experiences of those PoC who *were* genuinely victimized by bullies, by the way(as I may have said earlier). Bullying, whether it's racist, sexist, etc. is unacceptable no matter the background of the victim. All I'm saying is that it's not actually the widespread problem that some believe it is.

You say you don't want to invalidate the experiences of people who were "genuinely bullied" (no one was even talking about bullying; the subject was racism). So you don't invalidate those you consider genuine, just the rest you don't consider to have genuine cases by insisting but in the very same paragraph that racism "it's not actually the widespread problem that some believe it is." Here you assert it is you who hold the "facts" to understanding racism that trump the experiences of people of color you determine have not been "genuinely" targeted. (You use the word "bullied," as though it were synonymous with racism. It is not. )

I *don't* believe I'm the perfect arbiter of what is racist and what isn't. I am merely operating of of fact-based observation, that's all.

Your insist your views are "facts" while the experiences of people of color are not because they differ from your very limited understanding of racism. It is not simply that you don't understand it. You purposefully make an effort to actively invalidate the views and experiences of members of color at every opportunity. They are wrong, you insist. Racism really isn't much of a problem, while you insist misogyny is rare on the left, yet provide not one iota of evidence.

Not only that, you falsely malign feminists:

The problem is, most of the complaining being done, isn't about stuff like what Mr. Biden said.....not at all. It's more radical stuff like "all men are to blame for rape culture", and more extreme stuff like that.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4923269

Yet you refuse to provide a SINGLE link when prompted. Obviously that is not what most of the complaining is about. You and others complained that I even posted the thread I wanted to connecting the VP with the maligning of feminists as extremists, just as virtually every post in GD on feminist issues results in the same crowd entering to tell people they should not be posting what they want, since only they get to determine what is allowed to be discussed on this public message board.

You deny your own words while falsely attributing statements to others, like me, that I no where made, like when you insisted I "admitted to trolling" or claimed all people of color thought exactly like me. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4923693 http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4924847
Both of those were complete and utter fabrications.

If you truly were discussing issues in good faith, why would you post some fifteen times in a thread and then hours into a discussion alert on an OP as flamebait? It appeared to me that you felt that I had bested you and wanted to shut down the discussion. But even after a jury returned a verdict 0-7 showing they did not view the thread as flamebait and 39 other DUers recommended it, you continued to accuse me of trolling. The views of those 46 people were irrelevant. You insisted you knew it was flamebait and thus felt justified in insulting me as a troll.

As the cases above demonstrate, your repeatedly insist you know what racism, sexism, and misogyny are, while the views of those of us who actually experience it don't accord with your own "fact-based" views. Do you not see the implication of insisting you as a white man know what the "facts" are regarding racism that is at variance with the lived experience of those who are actually subject to racism?

1strongblackman's point about division already being present is an enormously important one. You say you don't want people to create "division." That division already exists. What you don't want is to hear about the views of those on the other side of that divide. You want to pretend that division doesn't exist, while seizing every opportunity to invalidate their life experiences, which only serves to deepen the divide.

[AverageJoe90]

228. I'm sorry, but you REALLY need to get with the program.

You say you don't want to invalidate the experiences of people who were "genuinely bullied" (no one was even talking about bullying; the subject was racism). So you don't invalidate those you consider genuine, just the rest you don't consider to have genuine cases by insisting but in the very same paragraph that racism "it's not actually the widespread problem that some believe it is."

Oh please.

Here you assert it is you who hold the "facts" to understanding racism that trump the experiences of people of color you determine have not been "genuinely" targeted. (You use the word "bullied," as though it were synonymous with racism. It is not. )

By the way, I never actually implied that ALL bullying was TOTALLY synonymous with racism. So that's one example of you taking my statements out of context.

You and others complained that I even posted the thread I wanted to connecting the VP with the maligning of feminists as extremists, just as virtually every post in GD on feminist issues results in the same crowd entering to tell people they should not be posting what they want, since only they get to determine what is allowed to be discussed on this public message board.

And that disagreement was legitimate, based on some of the wording you used. And by the way, I was never saying that you shouldn't have posted at all, either. Nor did I imply such.

If you truly were discussing issues in good faith, why would you post some fifteen times in a thread and then hours into a discussion alert on an OP as flamebait? It appeared to me that you felt that I had bested you and wanted to shut down the discussion. But even after a jury returned a verdict 0-7 showing they did not view the thread as flamebait and 39 other DUers recommended it, you continued to accuse me of trolling. The views of those 46 people were irrelevant. You insisted you knew it was flamebait and thus felt justified in insulting me as a troll.

Well, unfortunately, it appears that some of your conduct before and since has been giving more reason to suspect that these concerns were justified.

Do you not see the implication of insisting you as a white man know what the "facts" are regarding racism that is at variance with the lived experience of those who are actually subject to racism?

And as I've told others, it's about individuals more than anything else. I don't claim to be some sort of omniscient in this regard and I've admitted that I may not be as knowledgeable as some others, such as the SPLC or the late and great MLK, Jr.; and yes, I do mean what I say.
But I also pointed out that, in that same vein, being a Person of Color does not automatically make one an expert, either. And I stand by that as well.

You want to pretend that division doesn't exist, while seizing every opportunity to invalidate their life experiences, which only serves to deepen the divide.

And I've tried to point out time and time again that that's not true. Disagreeing with someone's viewpoint doesn't invalidate their experiences.....I honestly don't know how else I can explain this to you, because it's obvious that you have a hard time understanding that.

And to be fair, I'll admit that in the heat of the moment it seems I misread a few things and jumped the gun. It happens. But I still stand by the points I've made, including that being a PoC doesn't necessarily automatically make one an expert on racism.

[1StrongBlackMan]

195. No ...

it's the height of PRIVILEGE.

[nomorenomore08]

198. Excellent point.

[uppityperson]

37. Seriously. The Democratic party needs to pander to the tea bagging white dudes! I'm SErIES!!!!!!1111

what are you going on about? Or, to be more polite, clarify what you mean please.

[uppityperson]

47. Ah, so don't call teabagging white dudez whiny? What "middle ground" should the Dems go for?

Beyond what they already have?

[JustAnotherGen]

53. I'm digging in

White Male IndieTeaPublicans HATE MY GUTS.

They hate women.
They hate black women.
They resent this black women for obtaining financial success because I tripped them on my way up the ladder. Many of these guys started off in the exact same place I did but they assumed they would always get promoted ahead of me.

Now they are pissed because I won the game.

I vote Democratic. It's been my home since 1992 and solidified in 1996 when Bill Clinton told young black women - I'm not forgetting you.

We came out in droves in 2008 and 2012.

So the Democratic Party can either have a bunch of whiny losers who don't even want to try because they EXPECT to be handed things - or it can have people that want to work, contribute and work together as a COUNTRY to return us to prosperity.

You can't have us both.

Choose - or I'll vote strictly by my financial interests and bring as many black women as I can along for the ride.

Choose which one of us you want.

[cyberswede]

61. LOL...suuuure

[uppityperson]

69. "There is no such thing as white male privilege"? Uh. Huh. Why spend this amount of time and energy

signing up, getting banned, signing up, getting banned when it is obvious you will be banned again? At least you were somewhat civil this time.

[redqueen]

74. Probably because they see other DUers saying the same thing, and not getting PPRd.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

84. Boom!

[BainsBane]

197. "White privilege pushers" is the new term

to describe "extremist" DUers, along with Radfems.

[uppityperson]

79. Uh. Huh. Poor white dude, being picked on so much for having privilege pointed out.

"you need white males more than they need you"? Why or in what way?
"Who made you the final authority on what is or isn't the best interest of white males anyway?" The rest of us are talking about society, not simply your privileged class.

Finally, in what sort of way would you possibly be an "ally"?

And the final finally, poor baby, so put upon.

[uppityperson]

87. Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. WhiteStraitDudezRule!

there is no male privilege, white males "created this society" and pay my "welfare money"? Oh my.

[arcane1]

89. There's no white privilege, we just own the society and you should thank us for it

Cognitive dissonance doesn't even BEGIN to describe this one

[uppityperson]

93. Oh thank you massa for the society you done created so us black disabled lesbians can get welfare!!!

I think he may have missed who made up his nickname in mirt, "never been banned".

[arcane1]

97. Indeed, it's one small step away from "they were better off as slaves"

So that, you know, us white folk could give them welfare and chicken-yards in exchange for voluntary work. Or something.

Ignorance is one hell if a drug!

[uppityperson]

99. quit being so mean!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

poor WSDR

[arcane1]

109. I can't help it, I'm a white Uncle Tom. Or Cousin Tom or whateverthehellitis.

[arcane1]

88. Your impotence is showing

[cyberswede]

91. What an utter pant load.

But thanks for displaying your true colors.
If you're a democrat, I'll eat my white-privileged hat.

I almost wish your post would stay after you're banned, because it's such a perfect demonstration of your complete misunderstanding of racism/privilege.

[uppityperson]

96. would a hidden post help?

[cyberswede]

105. LOL...

Not sure we need one. Probably just a matter of time.

[uppityperson]

108. That is good, I hate risking my alerting status unnecessarily.

sometimes it can help though, figured I'd ask.

[greatauntoftriplets]

94. Should I kiss your feet or something?

[Skittles]

98. LOL, yet another one

[cyberswede]

72. Are you a MO moderate?

[bettyellen]

75. Silly you, thinking this was about "the best interest of white males" when it's actually about

society. Interesting that you'd imagine it is all about your needs, and eeryone else is stuck in the margins. Nope.

[uppityperson]

95. oh noes!Are you going to stomp off now?"You've already insulted me enough and worn out my good will"

[bettyellen]

100. LOL, I needed a microscope to find your "good will" and it was indeed stunted and teensy. Reminded

me of something else.

[greatauntoftriplets]

106. And all it took was five posts!

[greatauntoftriplets]

62. Here, have a mojito!

[cyberswede]

64. !

[greatauntoftriplets]

76. Good day for one!

It's warm here.

[uppityperson]

65. !

[arcane1]

81. I'll drink to that!

[uppityperson]

63. are you saying you are a "White Male IndieTeaPublicans"?

[cyberswede]

66. On the way!

[JustAnotherGen]

67. Congratulations

They were NEVER my ally in the first place - and like you - are most likely a little troll from Free Republic.

I don't believe you are anything close to being a Democratic Party member - you are lying as is the person I responded to.

Enjoy your pizza.

[bettyellen]

71. Doubtful you were a useful ally at all.

[cyberswede]

38. Mmm hmm

If men choose to vote against their own best interest, both economically and socially, it's hardly the fault of other people.

[uppityperson]

58. Dang, someone alerted on him.

fwiw, not me. Ah well.

[JustAnotherGen]

70. Not me either

but it was so much fun while it lasted!

[bettyellen]

56. "our culture doesn’t generally encourage boys to feel compassion or curiosity beyond....

a very narrow sphere of their experience".

I have seen that so many times. Amazing how many people have ignorantly lectured me feminism is useless and had no idea marital rape was legal a generation ago, that there were no workplace protections for harrassment, and that women had little choice in their reproductive options in our society. You'd think they'd have some basic backround in the topic before making these declarations, but it's usually not the case.

[Enrique]

57. it's necessary to read Fortgang's article to appreciate this

I'm seeing a couple of people apparently under the assumption that Fortgang made a reasonable commentary on the idea of white privilege. I hope that reading the essay would dispel that illusion for most people here.

[bettyellen]

103. So true, I can't imagine defending this BS after reading his original piece. Both the college rag

and Time magazine should be ashamed.

[uponit7771]

104. +1

[Blue Owl]

117. Tal Fartgag

n/t

[AverageJoe90]

127. I didn't like his piece so much either.

Frankly, my biggest issue was how much of a smug and condescending arse that he came off as when writing this whole thing. That isn't to say there weren't a few small nuggets of truth hidden in there, but I honestly found Julia Fisher's piece to be far more enlightening:

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/117665/princeton-essay-check-your-privilege-raises-legitimate-gripes

[Starry Messenger]

149. They read it and they agree with it.

There are lots of Fortgangs in the world.

[MattBaggins]

180. That little dipshit is jewish

He doesn't believe that institutionalized racism should be taken seriously?

Does he have any idea what his people went through even here in America? That Jews were denied jobs and academic positions?

That guy is a complete moron.

[undeterred]

137. Patriarchal bullshittery.

Nice ring to it.

[Shandris]

143. You'll have to forgive me. I don't think telling any group or race 'bye' and gleefully...

...crowing about their 'destruction' is something worth doing. Maybe its the part of me that tries to be, you know, human.

Meh. This trash isn't even worth commenting on. Good bait, Ms. McDonough. You got one.

[bettyellen]

158. you are forgiven for misunderstanding this was about whiny RW bullshiters who happen to deny that

institutional racism actually exists. Their destruction as an influence in our society is obviously a good thing- wouldn't you agree?

[Shandris]

161. I absolutely agree.

What I don't agree on is the presentation of the topic more often than not, and I've made that abundantly clear.

[bettyellen]

162. Oh, the sensationalistic "Bye Bye!"? Yeah, I never thought it was about any violent overthrow, just

that their influence is (finally!!) waning in the media.

[Shandris]

163. Yah, you hit. Sensationalism in headlines is one of those things that really hits my...

...squick button. I don't like dismissive talk, and while I'm sure we all, including myself, use it from time to time even if on accident, I do try to watch out for it. It feels so...needlessly confrontational.

But I'll be glad to see their nonstop influence gone. I mean...Tucker Carlson? How can anyone ever consider him -relevant-, let alone worth listening to?

[bettyellen]

165. Well, Tucker is probably going to go all in with the idiocy if Hillary runs. They are really paving

a road @ Fox where hatred of accomplished women is going to be a normal, everyday thing. Tucker and friends are unfortunately going to get a lot of milage out of it. I WISH we could say bye bye now, not looking forward to that crap flooding the media.

[Shandris]

167. While it does leave me a little behind in some DU conversations...

...I'm so very glad (overall) that I cut the cable to my tv. Not having to even consider listening to so many of these people has made life a lot less stressful. It's made it easier to focus on getting things done, too, action-wise. But maybe that's just because my brain wanders a lot (can ya tell?!).

Yah, the last time I really remember watching him any was during Bill's years, so this would be like a Redux for him. I'll bet John's highlight reels will be especially good, though. If its any consolation!

[redqueen]

164. That's exactly what it meant and that is intuitively obvious to the most casual observer.

It's so cute how many of these posts are entitled people displaying their entitlement.

Entitlement to have messages tailor made to suit their comfort level.

Entitlement to have the authority to dictate to women and ethnic minorities what sexism and racism are really all about.

etc. etc. ad nauseam.

[Shandris]

168. Yes, ad nauseum indeed.

Pick my part of the subthread for a reason? I'm sure it was -entirely- unintended.

[AverageJoe90]

208. Speaking of entitlement.....look in the mirror. nt

[bluestateguy]

148. Nobody was ever asking him to apologize for being white

Nobody. Not even the most politically correct, left-wing Marxist professors.

Check Your Privilege is a simple acknowledgement that white privilege exists and shapes a lot of outcomes in our society.

This boy (he still thinks like a boy, so that's what I'm calling him) does not seem capable of grasping that.

[Jasana]

166. We can't say goodbye soon enough. nt.

[Supersedeas]

177. White Dude entitlement won't go away even if the Tuckers are silenced

[randys1]

178. White privilege is real, common, and never more practiced

[YOHABLO]

192. But on the white right .. let's not try to make some equivalency here!

[randys1]

193. Huh? All white people in America are privileged, right or left

[1StrongBlackMan]

221. But we ...

expect it on the right.

[1StrongBlackMan]

220. Here let me finish your thought ...

White privilege is real, common, and never more practiced ... THEN, HERE ON THIS MESSAGE BOARD OF "LIBERALS" AND "PROGRESSIVES."

[randys1]

243. lol HOW true

[1StrongBlackMan]

245. Oops, used the wrong words ...

should have been "Than" ... but you got my point.

And for clarity, I probably should have inserted "...Some of the loudest proclaimers of being ..." before the liberal/progressive part.

[DonCoquixote]

213. What is so sad about this

Is that many of the "offended" types do not realize that the same structures that say "white people should be trusted more than x" are propped up by people who also say "any white person that is not as wealthy as me is just poor white trash." In the global economy, the same people that are defended are the same people that will export jobs to China, make the water toxic, and then, when you complain to them, will say "You are white, go get a job!"

[Skip Intro]

222. Excuse me, is this today's bash White people / bash men thread?

[1StrongBlackMan]

226. No it's point out privilege day ...

sorry to make you uncomfortable ... maybe tomorrow we can go back to the way it was.

[Skip Intro]

227. I see. It isn't all White men we hate, just some. Guess we just use the broad labels

because we're lazy.

Got it.

[cyberswede]

230. Is "whiny white men" a broad label?

I guess it could be, if there are a lot of them.

However, I don't see anyone in this thread saying they hate (even some) white men.

[1StrongBlackMan]

231. +1 ...

But I thought criticism doesn't equal hate! That's what I keep seeing in the endless "I don't hate President Obama, I'm just criticism his activities" posts.

[Orsino]

242. The "whiny white dudes" are stepping and fetching for Big Money.

Tucker Carlson is not your enemy. He is merely weak and corrupt enough to be a willing tool of the even whiter and vastly more whiny dudes who, directly or indirectly, sign his checks.

It's okay to hate him, but don't let that distract you.

[SaltyBro]

251. So are we supposed to hate white males?

What is the point of all this?

[cyberswede]

252. Why on earth would you leap to that conclusion?

Criticizing ignorant views isn't equal to hate, you know.

[SaltyBro]

253. So all white males are privileged?

Maybe we should take away everything they have, make them start from scratch.

[cyberswede]

254. What are you talking about?

I don't think you understand what white privilege is. It's really just existing with the "privilege" of not being discriminated against for the color of your skin.

It can't be taken away, and I don't understand what you mean by "start from scratch."

[SaltyBro]

255. Maybe white males should have their voting privilege revoked

[cyberswede]

256. Oh. I see you're not interested in a sincere conversation.

Have a nice night.

[nomorenomore08]

263. No. Only those who consider themselves superior by virtue of their skin color.

Which category I believe would be more properly described as "racist idiots" rather than white males. It's just that most of them happen to be white, and the most outspoken are generally male.

[BainsBane]

271. The whiney white dudes are alive and well

In fact, there seem to be more than ever.

[Katashi_itto]

272. There is nothing that shows a weakening grip at all.