General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsRights and privileges are two entirely different things.
Rights are the standard of treatment that must be given to everybody by law. It is not optional, it is required. It is illegal to discriminate against members of designated minority groups, or to deny them equal treatment under the law.
For the most part, what people refer to as white privilege or male privilege, is the standard of rights that all are entitled to. It is not something special, or extra. It is the way all are supposed to be treated.
Privilege (by this I mean social privilege, not legal privilege such as attorney client privilege etc.) is in addition to that. It is often arbitrary and subjective. Privileges are not something that can be demanded or enforced. They do not have to be fair, and in fact by definition, they never are fair. They are exceptions to the rules, not the rules themselves. Equal treatment is exactly what privileges are NOT. Today, privilege is largely based on wealth, rather than race or gender: things such as country clubs, private schools, VIP treatment of various kinds, even driving a car is a privilege, not a right. Privileges can also be based simply on preferences: such as who you choose to give a gift to. There's nothing wrong with that, and there's nothing that civil society can do about it.
Racism is the belief that a given race is superior or inferior to another, which I think is obvious nonsense. (At the bottom line of it, I think it comes from people being far too obsessed with comparing themselves to each other, which is a habit of mind that I have low regard for to begin with.)
But I acknowledge that racism exists and that the rights of PoC are violated on a routine basis, such as for instance, within the law enforcement and justice system. I am four-square against that, and support any efforts to end those practices. Ending institutional racism (and sexism, and other abuses of civil rights) is usually a matter of either enforcing the laws that already exist, or changing them. I'm all for helping to do that.
There are rights, and there are privileges, and the two do not overlap. Privilege has nothing to do with attaining equality or equal rights. It is an entirely different subject. That's why I completely reject the use of the term privilege in discussing minority issues. The term is both misleading (in confusing basic concepts) and counterproductive (it focuses attention away from corrective action), two very good reasons for rejecting it.
Where racism exists in society, there should be legal and/or political action to correct it; where racism exists on DU, it should be alerted on. There shouldn't be a big, nebulous, unaddressed racism (or minority rights) problem on DU. That's mostly what I see claimed, that I question.
What I do see, when these issues come up, is about 8 out of 10 people agreeing 100%, and maybe 1 or 2 out of 10 raising an indirect point such as I have here. That is not racism, or sexism, or whatever.
People can disagree with me, they can think I'm wrong about this or anything else of course, that's fine. But this is how I see it. And what I want them to understand is that I'm just as entitled to my opinion as they are. I am not going to change my mind because a couple of people on here don't like it and think they can throw their weight around.
Maligning people's character is something I see done every time one of these issues is brought up, and it is not a legitimate way to discuss anything. To those few who I'm sure will continue to do it anyway... attempting to smear others with intentional lies is just as abusive and just as wrong as being a racist or a sexist.
TM99
(8,352 posts)Thank you. I definitely agree with what you have written.
ret5hd
(20,482 posts)The rights everybody is entitled to sometimes have to be fought for.
If you are male or white those fights are less frequent. THAT is the "privilege".
To deny this is foolish, IMO.
TM99
(8,352 posts)Does a white male who is also disabled, gay, and an out of work car mechanic have to fight less or more than a straight black female lawyer working in Hollywood?
That's the foolishness.
If we instead focus on the legally protected rights of LGBT's, the disabled, POC, and the economically disenfranchised then all are treated with fairness and equality under the law.
ret5hd
(20,482 posts)Put those goalposts down please.
Otherwise, it becomes logically nonsensical.
I find it more useful to acknowledge the struggles that individuals due to both personal and cultural experiences must face as opposed to shoehorning into social justice politics a sociological theory that taken to the extreme does not make sense to real people. I find it more useful to focus on rights than on privilege.
A disabled man - white or not - deserves to be treated with respect and afforded full civil rights. A gay woman - white or black - deserves the same. A poor white man and a poor black man are both poor. I support economic justice that supports both.
The post New Left focus on 'calling out', 'privilege', 'positionality', etc. were not needed by those of us fighting for civil rights and social & economic justice issues 30 years ago. I do not see them as being particularly helpful, useful, or successful now. And I am not alone.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)at the pubs, driving etc. Very far from it.
Do you think you know better than every social scientist out there? On what basis is that?
TM99
(8,352 posts)with regards to 'privilege' theories. Some are from other sociologists. Some are from philosophers and psychologists. Some are Marxists.
One of the most prominent critics whose argument is actually the same as the OP (though of course in much greater depth and discussion) is the African American philosopher Lewis Gordon. He has written extensively on W.E.B. Du Bois in particular who is considered the 'source' for the theory of 'white privilege'.
You are entitled to accept the theory but there are others that do not. They also find that the theory is counter-productive to political movements seeking civil rights for all.
This blog is about two years old, however, it is one example of a well-reasoned argument against privilege theory and its failure to address real change:
http://blackorchidcollective.wordpress.com/2012/03/12/guest-post-privilege-politics/
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)at all in college, you'd have learned why words were needed to describe some (possiblyt unintended) consequences of racism.
Why would a word that has been usefully refined in this context for the purpose of discussion be discarded because of a few cranks?
Like the difference between racism and bigotry and their refinement so it can be understood they are not interchangeable, the word has been used to explain important concepts that were previously overlooked in academia. New areas of study, new words are coined to descibe them. Going back to your old Websters is a dodge that denies progress.
Those that seem to want to discard the word, are actually trying to go back to a time when there was less clarity about these social phenomena. Why would you want to muddy the waters?
TM99
(8,352 posts)My academic and professional backgrounds are in psychology, philosophy, and religion. I am quite familiar with academia, thank you.
A simple answer to your question is that not everything new is necessarily better or more useful.
http://publicautonomy.org/2014/01/27/the-rise-of-the-post-new-left-political-vocabulary/
If we were both professors at a college in the same department with different views, this would be no issue. We would debate with research, scholarship, and civility. Our positions might never change, and that would be just fine.
DU is a social networking culture which is very different. The accepted meme here of 'privilege theory' can not be challenged either civilly, rationally, or intellectually. I disagree with the theory and its current usage.
I won't, however, get into a protracted and emotional debate about it with you as obviously due to the fact that we are discussing it here at DU, we do agree on much when it comes to politics, policy, and the way we would like to see this country governed.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)and the people I hear arguing here at DU against them are ones who want to bundle the terms into one ism they sweep under the rug.
In hopes the conversation goes away. Just an observation.
TM99
(8,352 posts)but I think your observation is tainted by subjective emotional experiences.
I do not see anyone here on DU (except obvious trolls whom MIRT deals with quite quickly) who wants to sweep anyone's rights 'under the rug'. With very few exceptions, those who post here support racial equality, marriage equality, gender equality, economic equality, social justice, and tolerance.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)ProdigalJunkMail
(12,017 posts)interesting discussion style.
sP
TM99
(8,352 posts)It is not condescending to disagree with someone's 'theory of privilege'.
It is not snark to have read what was stated as saying that there are those here who would deny the poster their civil rights and sweep those and her under the rug.
I do not see that here. It would be a gross violation of the TOS of DU, and to suggest otherwise, is the emotional hyperbole that always appears in threads such as these.
Thanks for your two cents.
ProdigalJunkMail
(12,017 posts)I think I put the response in the right place... sorry if not.
sP
TM99
(8,352 posts)My apologies. This little side thread has had some odd communication blunders.
I think we are clear now. Again, sorry.
ProdigalJunkMail
(12,017 posts)to which post I am replying sometimes... frequent goofs abound.
sP
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)conversation while he came along and tried to blow it up. Funny stuff!
ProdigalJunkMail
(12,017 posts)first you attempt to negate the opposing view by throwing out 'credentials' and then you LOL at their points and then you snark with the 'try again' comment. the only reason this conversation would be considered polite is because the person to whom you're speaking has not taken your 'bait'...
the other person in your conversation is civil... you, on the other hand, not so much.
sP
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)TM99
(8,352 posts)Well, the enhanced specificity of such terms as bigotry vs racism comes in handy I think....
and the people I hear arguing here t DU againt them are ones who want to bundle them us into one ism they sweep under the rug.
Admittedly, your writing is a bit unclear with the typos, however, with that said, those who would be acting as you describe would yes be sweeping you (as a person) under the rug and therefore your rights under the rug.
It isn't a stretch to interpret your post in that way. Try again to clarify?
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Don;t know where the us came from. Shouldn't ever try this on a phone. It has been corrected.
TM99
(8,352 posts)With the correction, I see your point. I don't necessarily agree. I don't personally think that the 'privilege' theory keeps individuals from lumping together -ism's so that they can be swept aside and ignored.
I think that comes with lazy thinking and a lack of empathy.
As I said, we may disagree on the theory and specific word choices, and yet I doubt we disagree fundamentally on needs for change and the ways to accomplish it as a society.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)I think too many people like to derail conversations here by whatever means they can use. Nit picking on terminology- refusing to accept what another person is saying even when given the context- becomes the whole conversation. Instead of accepting that the definition one person pull out of websters today is not the only one and conversing in good faith, they focus on that nit. You see way too much of this here, and mostly from people who do lack empathy. It's great for those whose only problem with racism is hurt feelings on a meesage board. They get to engage and pat themseves on the back for being "correct" when all they are doing is disrupting a good faith conversation.
Speaking of disrupting- where's our friend with the gas can? LOL. He's going to be disppointed we actually continued a civil conversation!
TM99
(8,352 posts)with you that there are definitely those who will acts as you describe. I am sadly seeing it all to well, yet I know it is not unique to DU. It is a sad byproduct of the social networking age.
It would be nice to be able to discuss terms and theories without the emotional rancor and worries that someone is just doing as you describe, or being intellectually lazy, or just unemphatic.
While we may disagree on terms and theories, I do appreciate the civil conversation. Thank you.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)it at DU. Thanks for the links and explaination, hope I have given you some understanding why the nit picking feels like nay saying sometimes. Ugh, maybe that's not the right word. Too rushed to find it, but I think you understand pretty well now.
Thanks again!
TM99
(8,352 posts)I do understand. It is an incredibly sensitive topic. Oppression of any kind always is. Take care.
ismnotwasm
(41,965 posts)Start an OP on affirmative action or the ERA and you'll see what I mean
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)Maybe then we could generate more light, less heat.
TM99
(8,352 posts)It is a challenging article to read and fully understand. I don't know if all are willing to do so as this is a very sensitive topic as I said above.
btrflykng9
(287 posts)or to suit current cultural propaganda.
Incidentally, "academia" is filled with inaccuracies; publication is largely dependent upon the sheer number of times that author has been cited, not the validity of the ideas. It's a clique more than anything else.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)anti-intellectual bullsht worth of the Bush era. Good luck with that.
btrflykng9
(287 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)quinnox
(20,600 posts)One side issue that this brings to mind, the idea of rights to begin with. I firmly believe there are such things as natural rights, that is, rights each human is born with, regardless of whatever governmental structure or system they happen to be born into, re: the country of their birth. These rights are inherent, as the Declaration of Independence so powerfully and timelessly describes.
Major Nikon
(36,818 posts)Freedom from illegal discrimination is not a privilege. It's a civil right.
Supersedeas
(20,630 posts)rrneck
(17,671 posts)Where privilege is codified into law, as in Jim Crow laws, it's pretty easy to spot and deal with legislatively. When privilege is assumed but not codified into law it is a lot harder to manage. Read that last sentence again. Did you imagine a white person or a person of color making an assumption of privilege? Such assumptions are evaluations about how some not particularly well defined group feels about some other not particularly well defined group.
Racism exists in the United States. It hampers those at whom it is directed economically and culturally. We can make laws that regulate most any economic or cultural activity with a paper trail to conform to a basic standard of fairness. But those on the ground implementing those laws will regularly fall short of that standard. Some will do so maliciously, others because of ignorance or an inability to differentiate between conflicting societal forces. I don't have a solution for that problem, at least not an easy one. Eventually I think people just living in proximity with one another will be the best solution, but that takes a long time.
The greatest danger is not our lack of color blindness, but people who would exploit our differences for their own aggrandizement. Beware people telling you how you are supposed to feel about others. Especially beware people telling you how others feel about you. People like that are not your friends but rather parasites feeding on the tribalistic nature of humans.
A very good OP. Thank you.
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)The core point that I see is that it is theoretically impossible for a member of a more empowered cultural subgroup to fully appreciate the obstacles faced by those outside of it. It's a good thing to keep in mind, but it's susceptible to abuse in the usual stupid ways.
It's most useful as a concept where someone objects to a complaint regarding inequality of opportunity or treatment on the basis they, having never suffered it directly, "don't see it."
Obvious examples would be men who say they'd welcome "catcalls" or other aggressive sexual advances from women, and therefore women should not complain about such things, even though men face an entirely different set of risks and attitudes. Men are not likely to get raped, not likely to face contempt for being promiscuous, etc. They "don't see" the problems with sexual aggression not because it doesn't exist, but because they don't suffer its effects.
Or someone who grew up with ample education, encouragement, and respect, wondering aloud while someone who grew up in poverty, with few opportunities, and subject to discrimination based on their ethnicity, gender, etc., doesn't just get a job with their father's law firm.
Or someone who doesn't understand viewing law enforcement with suspicion, never having been pulled over for being the wrong color in the wrong neighborhood.
That kind of thing.
On the other hand, some people, given a valid rhetorical / sociological concept, can't help using it as a cudgel to simply denigrate others, or demand that they be silent in order to "win" some argument. The notion that only whites can be "racist" because we're going to redefine racism to mean "effective society-wide race-based oppression," instead of what it actually means, which is any kind of racial animus, is an example of this kind of silliness.
So we get stupid things like the young Mexican-American organizer who recently ranted at a friend of mine, a white woman in her, 40s, ill and exhausted after a cross-country trip, back issues, and a furious three days of constant work, and under pressure to get back to the airport, about how white people need to stop using their "privilege" to complain about being tired. In that case, he was actually speaking from the point of view of his own privilege: Young, strong, male, in good health, and not 2,000 miles from home. He could not grasp, and did not care to, that women or people older than himself, or with health issues, might actually BE tired under circumstances that did not bother him.
As progressives, we pride ourselves on spotting and calling out inequality, unfair treatment, and the like. But we are as susceptible as anyone else to petty conceits of personal superiority and desire to shut others down on the basis of who they are without sufficient attention to context or nuance or just plain clear thinking.
Zenlitened
(9,488 posts)And when people directly affected by privilege I posess (and they don't) talk about the topic...
...I'm going to listen to what they have to say, rather than tell them how to say it.
ismnotwasm
(41,965 posts)And I'm going to use a simple example, with the assumption that you are a male white person.
Have you ever been pulled over in your car, for no apparent reason, and, with good reason assumed it was because of your race?
RainDog
(28,784 posts)Last edited Sun May 11, 2014, 02:14 AM - Edit history (1)
who has a record of participation on the ground for women's rights.
beyond that - I think her point is that she thinks it's better to build solidarity among the many rather than fight with the few who want to engage in semantic gymnastics.
(and - to note - I have tried to check my usage - since we're all one race (human), I prefer to use "culture or group of origin" - or PoC - or the preferred nomenclature of African-American, or "black" - even tho, again, these are not sufficient in certain contexts, rather than race to describe someone - because using the word "race" perpetuates the idea that there are distinct races, rather than cultures that have been marginalized based upon their ethnicity and historical circumstances. I use "racism" to describe the cultural effect of viewing "race" as distinction. But it's also convenient and easily understood - so I understand the utility - but I have made efforts to stop using the term when I notice I may have done so. I wouldn't insult anyone who uses the term, nor assume any negatives about such a person unless the context was such that a person was demonstrating bias.)
I think she, like most others here, are more than willing to hear and learn from those who face issues they don't - again, it's a small group that objects - and often their objections are grounded by a feeling they are disliked merely because they are not marginalized in one way - tho they may be in another. So this makes them feel they have been falsely labeled.
Most people here don't want to play "gotcha" among those who share the goal of moving forward on issues related to marginalized groups. Those who do may make themselves feel better - but that feeling may be more fleeting than building agreement by finding approaches that advance goals of equality. But everyone here is free to make their own choices about the way they interact with others.
Major Nikon
(36,818 posts)Black and Hispanic men were the most likely to be ticketed, arrested or searched during a traffic stop. Black men were 2.5 times as likely as white men to be arrested and twice as likely to be searched. Hispanic men were 1.5 times as likely as white men to receive a ticket and more than three times as likely to be searched.
http://www.k-state.edu/media/newsreleases/jun12/racialprofiling62112.html
Dirty Socialist
(3,252 posts)George W Bush, the most privileged person in the history of our country.
Note: The biggest drivers of Privilege are money and pedigree.