Privilege = shit you don't have to put up with

[BainsBane]

People are making a lot of assumptions about what they think people mean when they say "white privilege." It doesn't mean you don't face hardships in life, that you can be judged or race alone, or that your class, gender, and sexuality doesn't matter. All it means is that those of us are white don't have to put up with shit that people of color face everyday.

If I had been wearing a hoodie and walking through that gated community in Florida, Zimmerman wouldn't have feared I was a burglar or represented a danger to him. He would have seen me as a harmless person out for a walk because I am white (and female), and he wouldn't have followed or killed me. If a cop pulls me over, it's because I've been speeding, have expired tags, or made some other moving violation, not because he doesn't believe I could actually own my car. Virtually all African American men have been pulled over by cops simply because they are black, even when they have committed no violation. Those are two examples of shit I don't have to put up with as a white person.

As a straight person, I don't have to worry about having the crap beaten out of me because I kiss someone on the street. I can marry in any state in the union, and that marriage will be recognized everywhere. LGBT Americans face obstacles in both instances--shit I don't have to put up with.

As a middle-class person, there is shit I don't have to put up with (shit I had to put up with when I was poor). I can buy food when I need it. My electricity isn't turned off. I have a place to live. Poor people have to put up with way more shit just to get by every day, while rich people don't have to worry about bills and retirement like I do. I am more privileged that some in terms of class but less privileged than others.

As a woman, there is shit I put up with that men don't. I have a lack of certain privileges as a consequence of my gender. So while I am privileged in terms of race and sexuality, I face some obstacles from sexism.

That I carry privilege in certain areas of life doesn't mean I can't express my views or that people are judging me exclusively on my race. It doesn't mean I am the bad guy, personally responsible for an entire history of oppression. It just means there is shit as a straight, white person that I don't have to put up with.

[The Magistrate]

1. It Continues To Amaze Me, Ma'am, That People Have Trouble With This....

[MattBaggins]

240. It's willful I think

[BainsBane]

255. Defintely

That is especially apparent in the threads begun to mock the issue.

[Zenlitened]

2. How dare you call me that!

(Just thought I'd get the standard Raging Narcissist reply in early.)

[freshwest]

189. Actually, that showed up much later. But thanks for being the first... So to speak. ;)

[BainsBane]

284. You had to know it was coming

No shortage of them. Ugh.

[M0rpheus]

3. !

[BainsBane]

5. Thanks!

[M0rpheus]

139. You're welcome!

But I'm just basking in the glow of this post.

[bravenak]

84. You are too awesome.

I swear it's true.

[M0rpheus]

142. Just for that...

You get a Cyberman doing the Cabbage Patch!

[redqueen]

146. OK that is awesome. nt

[freshwest]

190. Wow! Who knew the Cybermen could dance? A vast improvement in the genre, thanks! n/t

[M0rpheus]

243. You should see how the Ood bust a move, then!

[alittlelark]

4. Very, very well put!!

[sheshe2]

6. Brava!

BainsBane, so well said.

"White Privilege" yes indeed. It sends a hair on fire response on DU. How dare you? It is not an attack, it is a fact.

It is out there every single day. I have it and so do you. We are both white. However as women we have lost some of that privilege.

Years ago I had to train a management candidate. Male, yes he was. I happened to find out that his salary surpassed mine. I took it up with the higher ups. They shrugged. Now that is "White Men's Privilege." They get paid more and if we complain we are shown the door. Sad that, however it is a fact!

"White Privilege" exists. I saw that first hand, as one that has it in many ways and have lost it for being a woman.

[BainsBane]

12. I had a similar experience

and found out a guy with lesser qualifications that I had was earning more money. I wasn't as much pissed off as sort of numb. He and I were both in temporary, 1 yr positions, so I didn't pursue the matter further. I was more focused on finding a permanent job. I think it did teach me to try to negotiate a higher salary, which I've always done since, sometimes more successfully than others.

[betsuni]

16. I'm still angry

about the time I recommended a young man (as a favor to his wife) for a job he had no previous experience in. About six months later he bragged to me about how he only pretended to do the work and that it was the easiest money he'd ever made, naming the amount. That's how I found out he was making twice as much as me, but I had years of experience and actually, you know, did my job. The company was owned and run by a woman. I was stunned. That was years ago but I still have trust issues, man.

[William769]

7. kick & recommended.

[TreasonousBastard]

8. I am reminded once again about that Cornel West conversation ...

where he said while was working at Princeton he used to drive from Connecticut to Princeton several times a week and maybe once a week he was stopped on the Turnpike because a black guy driving a BMW toward Philly had to be a dealer. Joisey state cops claim they never profile. Eventually, they publicly announced that although they never profile, they would stop.

Several years ago a black man driving a Cadillac was stopped, frisked, and held in the little Port Authority jail at Newark Airport because the Port Authority cops admitted they profiled him. When he pulled out his ID, it was his credentials as a Federal district judge.

No, as much as I might get a little pissed at the rhetoric sometimes, this is the sort of thing that doesn't happen to me. It shouldn't happen to anyone.

[BainsBane]

10. I expect a lot of times the cops aren't aware they are profiling

Some of it operates at a semi-conscious level. They may just think, "he looks suspicious; let's pull him over." When cops say they don't discriminate, they likely mean they don't purposefully discriminate. It's the unconscious racism that is far more insidious. The idea that black men are criminals is reinforced in our culture through television and other media. We are taught a whole host of negative assumptions about non-white racial groups and must consciously work to unlearn them. Acknowledging privilege is just a part of that. If they don't like the word privilege, they can think of it as shit they don't have to put up with.

[BainsBane]

22. Jesus.

You're worked hard to say uninformed. So what are you arguing here? Black men are by nature criminals? It has nothing to do with the police, nature of the justice and penal system, or what the media focuses on? Media is reality, is that your argument? The only thing that happened in the last couple months is that fucking plane is missing because that is all CNN has covered.? Your level of ignorance on this subject is far too deep for me to indulge. Maybe someone else will have patience to explain it to you. Regardless, use Google and do some reading. Start with Google Scholar.

[nomorenomore08]

24. "Black men are by nature criminals." Sadly, I think much of the downplaying of police profiling etc.

has to do with this baseline assumption. People may not even be fully aware of their own stereotyping, but it's there.

[nomorenomore08]

35. I actually didn't read that particular post because it got deleted before I could see it.

I was quoting from BB's post about racial stereotyping.

[AverageJoe90]

37. Whoops. My mistake.

[BainsBane]

38. How do you know what was in that post?

It was posted hours ago.

[AverageJoe90]

41. I honestly assumed that NMNM08 had actually taken a quote from the troll.

But he pointed out that his comment had come only after the troll had already been tombstoned. So I realized my mistake and deleted the post. That's all.

[uponit7771]

29. +1, they're not aware... They are trained to think less of blacks and Hispanics

They're not aware

[giftedgirl77]

95. They are very much aware aware of what they are doing.

Too many cops are good ole boys, there isn't an ounce of respect given when they are dealing with minorities.

[Gormy Cuss]

126. The semi-conscious level is exactly why privilege discussions are spot on.

Calling something "___________" privilege is simply a device for pointing out the subtler forms of discrimination to those who are immune to it.

[betsuni]

9. They get so defensive

I wish they'd stop using the word "disagree." Someone posts about privilege, racism, sexism, etc., and the deniers feel attacked and attack back. They don't listen to the many nice posters who take the time to explain. They wonder why it's such a big deal that they disagree. Can't disagree that something exists when it does exist or disagree that someone's life experience is real when it's obvious that many others experience the exact same thing. Use a different word. The deniers can't think of themselves as members of a group, it offends their ego or something. Nope, they're individuals. It's like when that blog Stuff White People Like started and for a long time every new post had hundreds of comments saying: "But I'm white and I don't like that!" I think some people never really got the joke.

[AverageJoe90]

36. I really wish you'd find the time to actually learn what's going on around here, TBH.

And that's not meant as an attack on you, BTW. But there actually have been cases of *real* attacks on people who disagreed(and unfortunately, I myself have been a target of such recently, but let's not focus too much on that detail). In fact, even some people who adhere to the "white privilege" theory are getting concerned about this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4939397

And BTW, I don't doubt that many of the people who do believe in "white privilege", even the literalist version, are good, decent folks. But there are at least a few who have indeed, sadly, acted not so decently. And many of the latter tend to be a lot more vocal.

[betsuni]

69. Whatever, Dad.

[BainsBane]

81. You are a piece of work

"Real attacks": like when you accused me of trolling, engaging in flamebait, and referred to me as a "radfem"? When Bravenak was told she was "out of her element" when she tried to enter a discussion about race? When Seabeyond was threatened with rape and told to jump off a bridge? Attacks only counts if they are against you. Jesus. You are here trying to control how African Americans speak and playing the victim. Un-fucking real.
I've never in my life encountered anyone so unable to see outside of himself. It truly is astounding.

[AverageJoe90]

85. "I've never in my life encountered anyone so unable to see outside of himself." And with that......

I have no choice but to trash this thread. Because I can't deal with this B.S. anymore.

[bravenak]

90. You did it.

Thank you!!!!

[redqueen]

147. [phone]

[IrishAyes]

260. I could introduce you to someone just as unable to see outside himself if you haven't eaten recently

My ex.

No fooling. Haven't seen that slimeball in about 30 years, but last year he sent me an email raving about the fabulous vacation he was planning for the Congressional break (he's a lobbyist). Believe me, he won't make that same mistake again anytime soon. I guess he thought I'd be proud of him or something. Beyond narcissistic. But the reaming out he got will leave a lasting impression, I think.

[Sissyk]

186. Someone is working over-time to silence your voice in this thread.

On Mon May 12, 2014, 12:30 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

I really wish you'd find the time to actually learn what's going on around here, TBH.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4941460

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

whiny troll, always pretending to be the reasonable voice AGAINST liberal values, such as equality, climate change etc.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Mon May 12, 2014, 12:45 PM, and the Jury voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Whiny troll? This isn't over the top, insulting, or against liberal values. Leave it alone.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Post is arguing the issues, not a personal attack. Should perhaps not be quoting someone's post from another thread; but I don't think it amounts to a call-out. The alerter's general opinion of the poster is not really relevant to judging the post!
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Don't see something hide-worthy in this specific post.
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Stop alerting on post, please, that are not rude, OTT, insensitive, but are only opinions you do not agree with. Also, alerting to just call someone a troll is out of line and OTT and frankly, makes DU suck.
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Agree with alerter

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[nomorenomore08]

40. Some things are more than just "opinion." I absolutely agree.

Perhaps a decent analogy would be someone dismissing worldwide poverty and hunger as an "opinion."

[wickerwoman]

11. Yep.

Seems so obvious you shouldn't have to explain it, but obviously you do. Thanks for doing it very eloquently.

[MellowDem]

13. IMHO, most people don't understand or acknowledge their own privilege...

Or even recognize the wide varieties of privilege out there. White privilege gets a huge amount of discussion, and so some people think it's just a race thing.

The best way to help someone acknowledge or understand privilege is to point out some way they are underprivileged. People generally understand that much more readily than their privileges.

I think people who are very privileged sometimes are scared of acknowledging it because it can be harder to distinguish in their own mind what they earned and what they didn't, and for some this is important.

I also think some underprivileged people who understand at least some privileges simply refuse to acknowledge others due to their status in society and perception as a victim. This is most clear among certain poor conservative demographics, but happens among the left as well. This results in the underprivileged using the different types of privilege they do have against other underprivileged people without even realizing it.

The very idea of privilege turns most people off, it's a bummer to think about, that is, unless they're underprivileged. Then it's impossible not to.

[Gormy Cuss]

127. ^^^This^^^ n/t

[Whisp]

217. I think some of the best ways to understand is

for these white privileged naysayers that live in a bubble is to paint themselves brown/black and go driving around a gated community, or wear a hoody when jogging. I think they will get it then.

[MellowDem]

227. That's certainly another way...

I hear the use of social justice terms more and more by conservatives as they keep losing the argument. Their response is to fight fire with fire. Hence the cries of racism, bigotry, and sexism by many conservatives now. The cries of intolerance, etc. But they haven't picked up on the privilege language, yet. The thing is, many conservatives are underprivileged in various ways, but they also almost always buy into the idea that we live in a perfect meritocracy. This results in some serious cognitive dissonance and they have to come up with all sorts of crazy convolutions to have it all make sense, like the "takers" vs the "makers".

The facts and data have clearly shown we aren't living in a meritocracy. It's good we have those on our side, as they point out privilege that does exist. But it's still tough to translate that to understanding among conservatives when those facts undermine a huge part of their ideology. It is usually a gradual process.

[IrishAyes]

273. Sometimes I wonder if the Irish who are historically aware should have an easier time understanding

today's white privilege, having endured our own long spell of being discriminated against. White didn't use to refer entirely to skin color but rather social caste. So the Irish weren't really considered white back in the day; hence the infamous signs, "No Irish Need Apply". Etc. Sadly, too many of us have forgotten that lesson as we multiplied and prospered. Ryan, O'Reilly, etc. I shudder at the sight of so many Irish Americans who've become such bigots themselves.

[Hoyt]

14. I haven't participated in those discussion because it seems obvious. Your excellent post

Your excellent post should make it clear to any who "disagree," but it probably won't.

[tea and oranges]

15. It's Pretty Simple

To deny white or male privilege leaves one's complacency intact. To many this is the most important thing in their lives, whether they admit or not.

Other, more dynamic people, can learn to accept the changes that accompany such a realization.

[BainsBane]

18. Who said it was your fault?

That gender and age are part of what influenced Zimmerman doesn't mean race wasn't an issue. An old ,white man wouldn't have caught his attention, nor I expect would he have thought the same about a young, white male.

Your fault comment is a red herring. I said nothing about fault, other than I specifically said privilege doesn't mean you are personally responsible for all oppression. You are responsible for what you yourself do. Why don't you read the OP and get back to me?

[The Magistrate]

20. You Are A Little More Subtle Than The Recent run, Sir....

But of course, you give it away with that 'it's all black people's fault for committing all those crimes' line....

[AverageJoe90]

43. Yep. Glad to see MIRT zapped him.

There is no place for racism on DU. Of any sort.

[bravenak]

21. I think you may be gone soon.

What you just said was all types of wrong.
You basically said that if young black men would not commit crimes then they would not be racially profiled. Like young white men are crimeless. Young white men get the benifit of the doubt not given to young black men. Thats white priviledge and you seem to support it.
Do enjoy your stay.

[BainsBane]

23. Suicide run

especially with the second post above.

[bravenak]

25. That was a bad one.

They cannot help themselves when this topic comes up.

[KitSileya]

26. Not to mention, it is privilege to be able to wade into these discussions,

and try to shut it down by claiming that using phrases like white privilege is off-putting and alienating, and therefore, it shouldn't be used. It is the tone argument - it is worse to make people with privilege uncomfortable than it is to point out the reality of the life of those who do not have privilege.

That anyone who try to shut down discussion on matters of privilege is allowed to stay on a progressive, liberal message board is beyond my understanding. We shouldn't be discussing whether privilege (male, white, straight, able-bodied) exists, but how we can combat it and get rid of it - and acknowledging that the only way to do so is to shut up and listen to those who are unprivileged.

(Which means that white people posting things such as "I have white privilege, but using those words is bad, so lets not" all the while supporting those who, or indeed being one of those who shout down posters such as 1StrongBlackMan and Bravenak and M0rpheus and JustAnotherGen, should simply be removed from the site.)

[BainsBane]

27. It gets worse than that

There are repeated allegations that people that raise such issues are trolls, engaging in flamebait, or that the entire discussion is the result of sock puppetry. They actively seek to delegitimize the discussions and with them the life experiences of members of subaltern groups.

[KitSileya]

28. As I said, they should be banned.

I am getting less and less patient with this website, which purports to be progressive and liberal - or at least Democratic - but yet still allows these people to post such drivel. We know, and have pointed out time and again, that minority posters are being driven away from the message board because of such posters, yet the owners of the message board allows them to stay and post.

[Damansarajaya]

136. Well, for worrying about the website losing posters

you have an awfully cavalier attitude about banning people who disagree with you. I've seen a poster who'd been posting for ten years with thousands of posts get banned for making the wrong clique mad at him-her.

And then that same clique danced on his-her grave when he was PPR'd.

BTW, do you have any quantifiable evidence that "minority posters are being driven away?" or is it just a vague feeling kind of thing?

[KitSileya]

160. Quality before quantity, I guess.

Since I've been reading since 2001, I have seen this message board grow quite a lot, and not only for the better. When one has to keep fighting the basic battles over and over again, even in places where the premise is that everyone should agree on the basics, you don't get a lot of time to devote to the real fights.

As for minority posters, I believe the African American group when they say that many persons of color who posted on DU have now left the board. There was talk about listening to minority posters when they relate their experiences, was there not?

[Squinch]

193. Gosh. You sure know a lot for someone who has only been here for a few weeks.

Do you have any quantifiable evidence that someone was banned for making the wrong clique mad at you?

[Damansarajaya]

195. I KNEW somebody was gonna think that.

The person I'm referring to was PPR'd about a month after I started posting here.

[Squinch]

197. Well, color me convinced!

[Damansarajaya]

203. The very first day I posted here,

somebody responded to one of my posts, "enjoy your stay" with a waving smiley face.

I wonder how many new members join these days with the welcoming committees they get. Kinda the frat-house hazing mentality of inviting folks to join the site, apparently . . .

[Squinch]

208. Well, it seems like you would know...

[Damansarajaya]

212. on ignore . . .

you're the first one.

Congrats.

[Squinch]

213. Yeah!

[bravenak]

219. Why must there be an announcement?

Weirdest thing.
I should start saying that, knowing me i wont actually do it. Just keep saying it over and over. Might be my new thing.

[Squinch]

221. I found that one somewhat gratifying. And the feeling of deja vu is always a kick.

[bravenak]

222. Ahhhh.

Maybe you met this one before.

[chervilant]

214. ...

[AverageJoe90]

31. I'm sorry, but do you have any fracking idea how ironic that is?

I'll just leave it at that. Because I'm afraid that it seems you are rather blind to what's really been going on.

(And P.S., KitSileya, I'm not accusing you, yourself, of having done anything; just thought I'd clarify that.)

[KitSileya]

49. As you refuse to listen to unprivileged people when they describe their reality,

I think that your response is ironic indeed. I have read many a back-and-forth between you and the posters I mentioned by name, and yet still you refuse to listen, and you play the tone argument to boot. Ironic to the nth degree.

[AverageJoe90]

54. No, I listen quite well to experiences, actually. I just don't always agree with certain opinions.

I realize full well that having to deal with both personal & institutionalized racism is very much a factual reality for MANY a Person of Color. I have not denied this, even once(in fact, I've probably affirmed this more times than I care to count at this point). It is the opinion that "white privilege" is somehow itself THE reality, instead of a term that is merely used by some to describe such reality, that I've found to be problematic(and for a good reason).

And if what you are saying is true(and that I'm not being accidentally confused with someone else), that you have indeed read some of my past convos, then I'm afraid that it's kinda obvious that you have failed to understand the true context of everything I have pointed out. Which isn't an attack on you(and I hope you don't perceive it that way), but I might as well be truthful.

[bravenak]

67. This has been explained to you about a hundred times this week alone.

It's real whether you like it or not. Like science.

[stage left]

182. Brava!

+ a whole bunch.

[Zenlitened]

223. Oh wow, suddenly I get what's going on here.

This whole "debate" around privilege is a lot like the "debate" on climate change.

The whole look and feel of it, with uninformed deniers stubbornly proclaiming "Well I don't buy it!"

Insisting the science just isn't there.

Declaring it's all some sort of sinister plot against them.

Sneering at those ivory tower lefties, always hafta complicate things.

And derailing, endlessly derailing, so the discussion never moves forward, and even the best-intentioned begin to lose all hope.

Suddenly, all the denialist nonsense makes a sort of... sense. It looks familiar because it is. We've seen this tired old routine before.

[bravenak]

226. Exactly. Thank you very very much!

You just described my problem with this whole thing. Thank you.
My eyes have been rolling so much i have a headache.
At least i didn't rip my face off in frustration.

[Zenlitened]

229. Thank YOU. Your comment sparked a real "aha!" moment for me. -n/t

[GeorgeGist]

256. I was thinking of posting a response along those very lines ...

ie, it is like the average joe and climate change denialism.

[1StrongBlackMan]

238. There is no such thing as "personal racism" ...

I will post this every time you attempt to spread that nonsense. What you refer to as "personal racism", post 1970s social scientists call "BIGOTRY".

[nomorenomore08]

50. Again, it's a matter of having the attitude that you understand racism better than people of color

who actually experience racism understand it. You may not consciously intend to come off that way, but clearly some posters are picking up a certain "arrogant and dismissive and doesn't know what he's talking about" vibe from you. And ascribing malice to people who may simply be (understandably) fed-up and frustrated with the ways of the world, doesn't help either.

[AverageJoe90]

52. And frankly, I have picked up that very same vibe myself from a number of these same few people.

And ascribing malice to people who may simply be (understandably) fed-up and frustrated with the ways of the world, doesn't help either.

And the same has been done to me. If you'd like, I can DU Mail you a particularly egregious comment left by a certain person who took perhaps the nastiest bad faith leap in logic I've experienced in a long time on this site, for an example.

[bravenak]

68. Because you are the one person who always shows up.

To deny white privilege exists. And you are wrong everytime.

[Number23]

75. I see you ignored my advice to stop trolling these threads. Unsurprising, but a shame nonetheless.

[AverageJoe90]

82. I'll admit I may be somewhat opinionated.....perhaps to a fault, even.

But that's hardly the same as trolling. If I was doing stuff just to get a rise out of people then I'd probably have been kicked off of here a long time ago, TBH. But that's not the case. I just happen to be more vocal than some others on my side of the fence, that's all. And I have every right to be vocal just as you might.

[Number23]

88. You are vocal in denying the experiences and history of millions of people.

You act as though you are simply disagreeing with people about which sports franchise is better.

You have staked a claim and made a reputation for yourself on this web site as a person who denies the existence of racism and white privilege in American history. To deny that the United States is a country steeped and founded on the tenets of white supremacy is to know absolutely NOTHING about your country and to deny its very roots. This is a claim reminiscent of those made by the KKK and other white supremacists and it is a claim so ignorant and in such deep denial that I agree that stating something so ignorant should be grounds for dismissal from any thinking web site, let alone one that purports to be a liberal one.

You may think that there are many on "your side of the fence" and this being GD, I would not disagree with you. But you ever noticed how when you make these incessantly ignorant posts and troll every single race thread, you mostly do it by yourself? There's a reason for that though I'm sure you'd listen to and understand it as well as you've listened to and understood every black poster that's tried to reason with you to no avail and with absolutely no success.

[AverageJoe90]

96. I wouldn't have posted again, but I had to say something.

You have staked a claim and made a reputation for yourself on this web site as a person who denies the existence of racism.........in American history.

On the contrary. I have done NO such thing. But that's not why I came back:

To deny that the United States is a country steeped and founded on the tenets of white supremacy is to know absolutely NOTHING about your country and to deny its very roots. This is a claim reminiscent of those made by the KKK and other white supremacists.....

Oh boy. You could really learn a lesson or two about this, it seems. Here's the thing: most white supremacists, including the very same KKK of whom you speak actually believe the complete opposite. In short, they believe that this country WAS, SOLELY, founded on the tenets of white supremacy; in fact, countless amongst them, even in this era, from David Duke to William Luther Pierce, and many in between, have written countless propaganda tracts effectively stating the same, even if some of their comrades may not be so open.

When in fact, the truth of the matter is SO much more complex than just this highly simplistic thinking(whether on the far right or far left): And yes, it may be true that even the most egalitarian of the Founders would be considered casual racists by today's standards. As unfortunate as that is, that is in fact the case; we can't deny that. In all honesty, however, these were still complex men. And furthermore, the Bill of Rights clearly stated and implied that it was intended to cover ALL free citizens(btw, yes, I realize that women couldn't vote until 1920 with the 19th Amendment's passing); sadly, it certainly wasn't enforced as much as it should have been but that was indeed the original intention of the document.

And yes, I've done a lot of studying on the subject of history in my spare time(and of the white supremacist movement as well. Leonard Zeskind is one of my favorite authors in the regard of exposes on these assholes, TBH). So I do know what I'm talking about. Whether or not you may agree with what I've said.....well, that is entirely your decision. But I couldn't just stand by and not attempt to correct the record.

[Number23]

98. You haven't corrected anything. You never do. You never will.

All you do is show that you are a man who has read a few books and think that you know more/better/deeper than people who live EVERY DAY what you read once or twice in a few books.

You don't know what you are talking about. You need to accept that and stop trolling these discussions.

[bravenak]

83. Quite right madam.

Shameless indeed.

[1StrongBlackMan]

239. No need to pm him/her ...

It was me.

You asked if I seriously believed that you don't support civil rights for all people.

I responded that when one defends the racial status quo, (a status quo that is, undeniably marked by racism), one cannot support civil rights for all people.

That post was alerted on and hidden.

And by ... I'm still waiting on you to explain how Black folks can not be affected by structural racism.

[nomorenomore08]

283. I suppose different individuals may be affected to different degrees. But suggesting that *any*

black person's life has never been touched in any way by racism is ridiculous and a little offensive, especially coming from a white person.

You know what they say about assuming...

[1StrongBlackMan]

288. But he's not assuming ...

He's telling what he knows to be truth!

Funny though ... he and I go back and forth for days in that thread, then he exposes a stunning amount of ignorance with that statement and when I call him on it, I get alerted on and locked out of my own thread.

I'm sure that was just a coincidence.

[IrishAyes]

276. It rather reminds me of Paul Ryan refusing to have any poor people on his committee to

study poverty. That poor man couldn't possibly understand his condition as well as the rich man does.

What it means is that the rich guy doesn't want to hear truth spoken from the front lines. Might be a little awkward.

[Number23]

73. Hear FUCKING Hear

(Which means that white people posting things such as "I have white privilege, but using those words is bad, so lets not" all the while supporting those who, or indeed being one of those who shout down posters such as 1StrongBlackMan and Bravenak and M0rpheus and JustAnotherGen, should simply be removed from the site.)



I wish I could rec this post a thousand times. I thank you from the bottom of my heart for you saying this. As I've watched these folks get shit all over, get posts hidden, be called "obnoxious" by assholes here, get told by the admin of this site that CALLING a racist post racist is worse than actual POSTING A FUCKING RACIST POST I've just had a gutful.

What really kills me about all of this is that so many of the folks doing their hardest to drive the few remaining black posters off of DU are also some of the main ones that simply love to pat themselves on the back with how "tolerant" and "worldly" they are. As they support people and causes that have the support of .00002% of blacks and other poc. History has proven time and time again that when people align themselves with causes that exclude minorities, that history seldom looks too kindly on these folks or their causes. But because these folks have convinced themselves that only Southerners are racist or only Republicans or only people over 60 or, or, or (whatever group they are not members of) they feel as though they don't have to do one iota of any self-examination or self-reflection. And then we all suffer and it takes that much longer for this bullshit to die its long overdue and anticipated death.

[KitSileya]

123. Huh, I was sure I was going to get a hide with that one.

I am getting less and less benevolent when it comes to DU these days. More and more, I end up saying things straight out, expecting to get a hide. I truly believe that if nothing is done, Skinner and EarlG will find themselves the owners of a toothless, irrelevant website a la Huffington Post, which, while it gives income, is useless in the grassroots movement that is the only thing that might, and only might, avert the fall and decline of the American experiment.

[JustAnotherGen]

110. Thanks you!

You notice though - I've only been hidden once in my years at DU? I have an advantage - founded a thriving community years ago and I am a MASTER at finding the line of TOS and standing right on it.

[URL=http://gifsoup.com/view/4134509/the-laugh.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL] [URL=http://gifsoup.com]GIFSoup[/URL]

[KitSileya]

124. I've been a member of DU since 2002,

And I read it well before that (I remember refreshing the LBN page incessantly while watching the news on 9/11.) It hurts to see how much it has declined, allowing posters to post things that would have been removed before. People who are truly on the left side of the political spectrum acknowledge that minorities are discriminated against. They work to change our culture and society to a more equal one. To see so many here refuse to admit that when it comes to discrimination, those who experience said discrimination are the experts....well, I knew that the American Left had moved toward the right, but it just makes me glad I have an alternative to living in the US.

[Paladin]

117. Nicely put. Thank you. (nt)

[AverageJoe90]

30. And, TBH, it really can be just as easily....and more *plausibly* argued, even.....

That it's not so much "privilege" of white people, or even that of men or straight folks(though perhaps with one sole exception, and that is class), as it is disadvantages that other people may have to face.

Another DUer had a simple, yet well-thought out post regarding "white privilege" in particular:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4938348

Just some food for thought, more than anything.

[BainsBane]

32. No, it creates no such frame

Rather, it simply speaks to the fact that you aren't discriminated against based on race, something so basic some refuse to accept.

This poster summed it up here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024941179#post2\

[AverageJoe90]

33. And with all due respect to said poster, I'm afraid they're rather wrong.

Because many of the people who DO have an issue with it, have had some rather legitimate grievances to point out, myself included. One poster laid out some of his own concerns yesterday on another thread. Though he and I would disagree on the viability of the term, he has indeed noted a disturbing trend:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4939397

And yes, granted, there are indeed a few actual RW trolls who do use, and have used, this as an excuse to bash all of us liberals and progressives; but here's the thing.....even if not a single liberal/progressive believed in white privilege, literal or otherwise, 95% of these trolls would STILL have caused trouble anyway. Because they're trolls.

[BainsBane]

39. I don't believe he mentioned trolls

that was someone else. The term he used was "raging narcissists."

That linked post might make sense if the privilege deniers weren't so active in denouncing people who talk about privilege as engaging in flamebait, trolling (sound familiar?), and sockpuppetry. If the deniers didn't flip out everytime the word was mentioned, it wouldn't be such a major issue. One thread about white privilege spawned dozens claiming people "threw it in people's faces all the time," or something to that effect. If people could just recognize that some people are going to use words they don't personally favor rather than insisting all language on the site cater to them, we wouldn't have a problem. The same goes for feminist issues. If I could once post a thread in GD about rape or a woman's issue without being told I was being divisive or engaging in flamebait, it would be a miracle.

[AverageJoe90]

42. Yes, I know, but that wasn't quite the point I was making.

You may wish to re-read that post I made, TBH.

[BainsBane]

45. Or you could read my edited post

Not that it matters to you what I say.

[AverageJoe90]

77. I think I noticed it already......that is, if you're referring to the Biden thing. nt

[BainsBane]

80. No

I was referring to this: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4941467

but my point here is central: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4941536

Don't use the word if you don't like it, but stop telling other people what language they are supposed to use.

[nomorenomore08]

92. "Don't use the word if you don't like it, but stop telling other people what language they are

supposed to use."

Thank you. That's about all that needs to be said, at this point.

[BainsBane]

93. I've said it several times

He's made a point of ignoring it.

[nomorenomore08]

97. Like everything else. I swear that kind of obliviousness must be *practiced*. n/t

[KitSileya]

100. Practiced and calculated.

It's like those who post, 200 post into a thread, snarking about how they are supposed to feel guilty for being white/male/straight, after it's been explained at least 5 times in the previous 199 posts that being aware of your privilege doesn't mean feeling guilty for having said privilege.

It is meant to derail, and sap the real progressives of energy. Having to fight such basic fights on a message board that is meant not to be Democratic politics 101, but rather a board for Democrats....well, it is simply discouraging. And that is what they are aiming for, and what Skinner and EarlG don't seem to realize will kill the site, if not in number of hits every month, then in what those engaged here will accomplish in the real world. We are here to discuss with like-minded people, and when we have to fight the 101 fights over and over again, those who want more will drift away, and DU will be a place for the dregs.

[BainsBane]

101. I'm not so sure

There is a level of impenetrability that seems to me would be difficult to fake.

[nomorenomore08]

102. Could be a little of both, really. I just wish certain folks would give it a rest. n/t

[pipi_k]

121. Here's something else

that people could give a rest...


Nearly every time someone posts a controversial subject and a person dares to come in and give an unwanted opinion, there's one or more subthreads between two or more people going on and on and on about how clueless, obtuse, trollish that person is.

They "should be banned".

They're "a piece of work".


All this being lobbed back and forth in front of the person they're talking about as if he's not there.

Dehumanizing him like he's a piece of damned furniture.

Honest to god, it's like reading the Facebook posts of my 13 year old granddaughter and her friends.

The person you and the OP are disrespecting so thoroughly is, IMO, being highly patient and respectful.

Oh, and just FYI, that doesn't mean I agree with his position, although I do understand why he would have it. (Bolded for the benefit of anyone who might accidentally skip over it and then attempt to twist my words)

It only means that it's discouraging and depressing to see many people who call themselves "Liberals" being pretty damned intolerant of others' rights to have opinions, even if they disagree with said opinions.


And in closing...while I don't deny that white privilege exists, I do have to wonder what white privilege I supposedly enjoyed the times when I, a white female, have been directed to the "bargain basement" of an upscale store when I hadn't even asked where it was...

...or when I've been followed around a store by an employee who thought I was going to rob the store blind...

... Or maybe the time when I enjoyed white American privilege after being stopped by a customs agent on the border coming back from Canada and my (white male) companion and I being subjected to a humiliating search of our vehicle, belongings, and persons...

... Or what white female privilege I enjoyed from a state cop on a rainy highway one morning while headed to work and I was pulled over while tooling along in my little Honda CVCC. I got a stern lecture from the cop about how I'm supposed to have my headlights on at the same time my windshield wipers are on. And this, all while cars without headlights on are speeding past where I've been pulled over.


So while I won't deny that white privilege exists, I will say that I have two (white) cousins who are married to black men, and someday I'll have to get around to asking them if their hubbies have ever experienced the same things I, a white female, have.

It would be truly ironic if they never have, yes?

[boston bean]

122. One question, what is "controversial" about discussing privilege?

[Maedhros]

141. You've hit on the crux of the matter.

Privilege is now a controversial subject on an ostensibly Liberal site. That should give us all pause.

[BainsBane]

148. and "flameabait"

According to the alerter on my OP and two of the jurors.

[Maedhros]

165. Well, it's a topic that makes some people very uncomfortable

so they will take measures to suppress discussion of it. Someone elsewhere on this thread said it best: acknowledging privilege knocks people out of their complacency, and complacency is very comfortable. As long as the problem of racism can be blamed solely on those despicable people on the other side of the political divide, all is well. When one must consider one's own role in the problem, it can be a bit jarring.

[BainsBane]

169. I think that is the heart of the dispute

"As long as the problem of racism can be blamed solely on those despicable people on the other side of the political divide, all is well. When one must consider one's own role in the problem, it can be a bit jarring."

Well said.

[Dragonfli]

191. Unfortunately, you and I do not possess "suburban privilege". As such I have ONLY been affected

As poor white apparently quite privileged trash, I've had to deal with being beaten nearly to death for walking in a "nice" suburban neighborhood (by white older kids with a baseball bat, my privileged kindred I am told), but luckily for me that does not count because I was privileged to be beaten. As poor white trash I could never walk into "nice" stores and not be followed around or asked to leave, or in larger stores directed to the bargain basement, luckily I was privileged most of my life with this.

As poor white trash I was picked up by police no less than twenty times during my freshman year for crimes committed in the area I had to walk through to get to the Catholic school I attended, I was a lucky ducky because it was my thrift store cloths and long hair that triggered it rather than a hoody. Due to my privilege I was asked to leave because we could no longer afford timely payments on tuition even tho I received a partial scholarship for academic over achieving, thank God I was privileged, because I had to quite school and begin working to help feed our family one month before my sixteenth birthday, where I learned my immense privilege could earn me almost two thirds of min wage under the table hauling asbestos and old building debris like the privileged trash that I was.

I always felt sorry for the underprivileged rich kids in those suburbs that were never stopped or beaten, or accused of crimes because of the finery they wore and the nice cars their parents gave them to drive around on their sixteenth birthdays, it was hard for them that had money but were Oriental, Hispanic or Black, I had it far easier it would seam because of all the shit I am told I did not have to put up with that I was tricked into believing I had because of reality.

I live in a poor neighborhood on the east side of Buffalo, it is about 80% black, but my black (and other raced) neighbors don't sneer at me and call me privileged, they call me friend because we don't hate each other here, we help each other instead of spreading nonsense about one or the other having some great privilege, because we know we are all trash to rich snobs that call me and them names equally for our lack of means. We are all we have because the navel gazers in the suburbs that do not know what hungry is, who own multiple cars, and whose parents could afford to hand them education don't give a rats ass about any of us, and we know it, because it shows.

Wake me when the suburbanites that like terms like privilege learn from THEIR privileged existence about something more honest, like Suburban privilege, I would bet my last 10 dollars in food stamps that people that are currently getting of on disparaging me for a privilege that has never been a real thing in my life all make 50 grand a year and up. The are the truly privileged. I am nothing, I am white trash.

[nomorenomore08]

235. Class privilege is just as significant. I don't like how some people downplay it either.

Thing is, it's not a contest. And you shouldn't look at it that way.

Like I've said before, however shitty a white person's life may have been, it could very well have been even shittier if they were born a black person in the same income bracket.

Poor whites are often unfairly mocked and ridiculed, and yes, discriminated against by people of a higher social class. But the genocidal hatred harbored by many toward poor blacks is even worse - think how much more likely a lower-class black man is to be murdered by police, and to have his murder excused as "taking out a thug."

[Dragonfli]

249. I don't see it as a contest, what I see and have seen since birth, is that those that are

enjoying class privilege, no matter the color, treat us all here like shit. I find them hypocrites is all that like to call me names just because I am white if they are well off and black, or call me different names if they are well off and white, I am trash, and I am not good enough to attend their garden parties.

They discuss how they, that have everything, are getting screwed by me, somehow, just because I am white, while the white that have everything discuss how they are getting screwed by my black neighbors, somehow, just because they are black. Y'all are way obsessed with race, needing enemies that are "different" for some reason. The only thing I see where y'all find common ground is hating on the poor.

Both groups above us hate both groups here, it is what they all have in common. Their privileged upbringing makes it easy to treat me and my black brothers that way, without even seeing their own hypocrisy.

My allies are those in my class that do not call me names based on my race

[nomorenomore08]

251. I absolutely agree that people need to stop placing others beneath them. Period.

Middle-and-upper-class white people need to stop doing it to working-class white people, and white people of all social classes need to stop doing it to people of color.

[nomorenomore08]

234. Certainly no intent to "dehumanize." I think we were all just irritated with the guy.

You can consider it simply a difference of opinion if you wish - that's your prerogative - but I do get exasperated at DUers who seem resistant to pretty basic progressive ideas. If nothing else, a white person arguing with a person of color over how to talk about racism, tends to make the white person look like a jerk.

And as to your last point, individual anecdotes don't prove or disprove anything all by themselves, though in aggregate they can begin to paint a picture of things.

[Squinch]

199. I am betting

he's a very early 20-something white man who has never had his opinion questioned before, and just can't believe it is happening. There seems to be some kind of existential struggle going on given the level of hubris and denial there.

[kwassa]

257. LOL! The funniest thing I've read all day! Because it is true ...

There is a level of impenetrability that seems to me would be difficult to fake.

Let's name it. The man is an idiot.

Deep, deep idiot.

[XemaSab]

296. SO MUCH THIS

n/t

[brush]

116. Seems he likes to argue and get in the last word . . .

a contrarian in deep denial.

[nomorenomore08]

51. For the umpteenth time, white privilege is not something one merely "believes" in!

For people of color in a racist society, it's a fact of daily life. You might as well claim that starvation in rural India is just a "belief" or "opinion" - well, those poor kids are bloated and dying no matter what anyone "believes"!

[AverageJoe90]

53. With all due respect, "White privilege" isn't the same thing as starvation in India.

Starvation is a VERY REAL problem that millions of children actually have to suffer in India, even in the urban areas. And racism, whether institutionalized or personal, is also a very real issue that affects millions of people. "White privilege" is merely just a term that some use that they *think* perfectly or at least reasonably describes the problem. But it sadly hasn't(or at least, the literalist version, anyway), and that's the problem.

[BainsBane]

56. Then why is Trayvon Martin dead

and Cliven Bundy alive? If it's only a term, why is death row filled with African Americans? Why do whites receive lesser sentences for the same crimes as African Americans? Why aren't you stopped out in public on a regular basis out of suspicion you are a criminal?

Also, class divisions in this country are nothing like starvation in India. If that is your point of comparison, none of us have anything to complain about.

It's pretty obvious that you think class is important while other facts aren't because class is about you. If something affects the rest of us, it just doesn't count because we don't count. That is how I interpret your argument.

[nomorenomore08]

58. Precisely. Splitting hairs over semantics while people are suffering and dying from the effects of

racism is poor form to say the least.

[Squinch]

201. While saying, "This is how all these people describe their experience, but they are wrong" about an

experience he cannot possibly have shared.

The utter ignorant gall of that is pretty enormous.

[AverageJoe90]

62. "That is how I interpret your argument." Well, I'm sorry to say that you're wrong. Dead wrong.

and Cliven Bundy alive? If it's only a term, why is death row filled with African Americans? Why do whites receive lesser sentences for the same crimes as African Americans? Why aren't you stopped out in public on a regular basis out of suspicion you are a criminal?

None of this proves "white privilege", by the way. They all DO prove the reality of institutionalized discrimination. But not some nebulous literal "privilege" of white people.

It's pretty obvious that you think class is important while other facts aren't because class is about you. If something affects the rest of us, it just doesn't count because we don't count.

And that's not true. Everyone counts. And class issues affect *everyone*, of both genders, by the way, not just white men. It's not just white men being victimized by crooked bankers or predatory lending practices, for example; women and People of Color are getting fucked, too. And that's just one thing.

[BainsBane]

66. Did you see how I defined white privilege?

simple: shit you don't have to put up with. That's it.

Race, class, gender and sexuality all affect everyone. All of us have a race, gender, and sexuality. Everyone is not disadvantaged based on those factors, including class, but they all play a role in structuring society. When you dismiss everything except class, you demonstrate that the only form of privilege you think counts is the one you see yourself as disadvantaged by.

The fact is as Americans we are all privileged. You aren't nearly as poor as most of the world's population. The fact you are posting online tells me that much.

Again, I don't really care if you use or reject the term white male privilege. That's your business. What pisses me off is that you and others actively work to delegitmate discussions that don't conform to your chosen vocabulary and your areas of interest by accusing members of flamebait and trolling. I have never accused you of trolling because I didn't like the language you used or a subject you posted on. If you don't like a term, don't use it, but that doesn't mean everyone else needs to do your bidding.

What I see going on here is more than a debate about a simple word. You are denying the significance of race, class, and sexuality altogether by insisting not everyone is impacted by them, which is patently absurd.

[KansDem]

130. Trayvon Martin is dead because he was murdered by a racist

Cliven Bundy is alive because he has the backing of a "militia" of crazed-gun nuts who are itching for a fight with a government they don't recognize.

That's how this "white privileged male" sees it...

[nomorenomore08]

60. You admit that racism is a serious problem - which anyone with any sense can clearly see -

yet you expend so much mental energy arguing over a mere two-word phrase. Why are you so invested in this? We keep going back and forth on this so much that we don't even get to discuss the really important stuff.

[bravenak]

65. Funny how you always show up on privilege threads to argue against the term.

Funny. You always show up. Funny. You always show up to argue semantics. Funny. You always show up on privilege threads to argue against strangers using words you don't like. Funny how you like to show up and tell black people what words they should use to describe the very real problem of institutional racism. Funny how you seem to think you as a white man think you have the capacity to better and more accurately describe what black people go through in this country on a daily basis than we ourselves do.

You know what Joe? It's not your job to tell us what words we can use to describe the issue of institutional racism in america. We do not want or need your advise on how to desbribe the problem or to tell us which words you would prefer that we use. Okay?

You are wrong on this issue and you need to just accept that we are going to use the term white privilege any time we feel like it whether you think its helpful or real or accurate. Not your job to make those decisions for us and i am asking you now to please stop.

And i want to let you in on a secret. You can just opt to not read these threads at all if the term bothers you so bad. Reaally though!

[BainsBane]

70. I've made that last point many times

Trash by keyword, ignore, pass by, like I do to the two million threads about marijuana. The difference is I'm not compelled to tell people they shouldn't be talking about marijuana, like Joe feels it's his responsibility to tell us what words we can use and which subjects are flamebait.

[bravenak]

74. I wonder why.

I really would like to know why if he hates the phrase so much, why not just skip it?
Is he just determined to eradicate the use of the term?
Does he really expect to get us to stop?
Something is wrong with this situation and it's making a bit uncomfortable. I've been skipping discussions on this topic because i just don't want to keep explaining the same thing like it's necessary. I feel like someone is playing a game with me. I may be on ignore now so it might get a little easier.

[nomorenomore08]

86. I don't get it either, honestly. But obviously there's something that really irks certain posters

about the use of a relatively innocuous two-word phrase. Strange that they would focus so intently, and so negatively, on such a small thing. Especially when any possible "objections" have been quite well refuted over and over again.

[bravenak]

89. Honestly it has been explained to him by us about a hundred times this week.

I explained, gen, 1sbm, num23, you, BB, and many more have given him very patient answers to all of his questions and there is sort of an aw shucks routine going on here. The insulting words and questioning of our critical thinking skills have bewildered me this month. There is something very wrong going on with this situation and i think it needs to stop. At first i took it seriously, but i know when somebody is messing with me and playing games. And this is a game for some people.

[nomorenomore08]

91. I tend to assume most people on DU are more or less sincere, but I'm really starting to wonder.

I honestly have no real idea what anyone's deal is, but I kind of doubt someone could be that obtuse about a subject without trying to be.

[bravenak]

94. I think you are right and most people are sincerely who they say they are.

After a few weeks of this same discussion on a daily basis, i am pretty sure what i'm dealing with is not just misunderstandings. Hope i just stay on ignore for a bit. Don't use it myself.

[betsuni]

280. It might be

Asperger's or something like that.

[nomorenomore08]

282. I have no idea, but I guess it's possible. I'm pretty sure I have a touch of that (or something

similar) myself so I'm familiar with the obstinacy, literal-mindedness, etc.

I don't want to use a "disability" (not sure what else to call it) as an insult, but I sometimes recognize certain traits in other people and start to wonder, if only momentarily.

[JustAnotherGen]

155. This right here

The insulting words and questioning of our critical thinking skills have bewildered me this month.


But here's the thing - I have ovaries of steel. And I'm arrogant. And a prima donna.

He's dimissed.

Join me - dismiss him. As I said to BB elsewhere on the thread - little boys who pull your hair are not your friend and don't like you.

My mother taught me that when I was kindergarten and it has stuck with me ever since. It's great how a playground analogy can be applied - eh?

[bravenak]

185. I am done with him.

All i have left is one of these.

[JustAnotherGen]

187. bwahahahahah

[Squinch]

206. I think you are right about this. This is a game, and I am suspictious of the motives.

[bravenak]

209. I have been noticing a pattern for about a month.

Every race/sexism thread.

[Squinch]

211. Yep. And always taking the same position, and always sucking all the energy out of the thread.

I think it's time to send someone out to the pasture.

[bravenak]

218. Yes, i agree.

I think they may be giving it a rest for a bit. I was super irritated saying the same things 50 times.
Wont do it again.

[nomorenomore08]

47. Why do you say class is the one exception?

The cynic in me wonders if perhaps it's because you're white and male, but not upper-class.

That aside, though, a lot of this seems to me like useless hair-splitting. Why not use the already "accepted" terminology instead of trying to invent your own that may just confuse people?

[BainsBane]

48. because it's the only one he thinks matters

because it's about him.

[AverageJoe90]

57. "because it's about him." How ironic.

Because that's the exact vibe I've gotten from some of the people I've ended up having to debate with: that they believe that it's all about THEM and how THEY feel(as individuals, that is).
I don't claim to be perfect myself, BTW, but the points I've made are indeed based on an all-encompassing view, making an honest attempt to consider everyone's personal experiences and such, while also trying to be practical at the same time. And sometimes, I may fall short of that goal. But I do deserve credit for trying, at least, and I know that some on the opposite side of the "white privilege" fence have done their best to be considerate as well.

[BainsBane]

59. How many posters of color do you think there are on this site?

In fact there are very few. Clearly most people are not talking about themselves. You don't pay attention much, do you?

Either there is no privilege or there is privilege. Claiming there is privilege based on class but not race, gender and sexuality simply says you don't think those factors and those people matter.

I have not accused you of engaging in flamebait or trolling, as you have done to me for posting about rape culture and the label of "radfem." You aren't in a position to complain about how you've been treated, at least to me, when you throw around insults like that.

[AverageJoe90]

63. "You don't pay attention much, do you?" I pay plenty of attention, thanks.

Claiming there is privilege based on class but not race, gender and sexuality simply says you don't think those factors and those people matter.

That's not true. Simply not true.

I have not accused you of engaging in flamebait or trolling, as you have done to me for posting about rape culture and the label of "radfem."

Honestly, as I've pointed out before, the only reason that I had a problem with your post is because of certain other things you said. And I wasn't even nasty about it:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4923224

[nomorenomore08]

64. "...making an honest attempt to consider everyone's personal experiences and such."

You may do so, within your own thought processes - I obviously can't read your mind - but it doesn't translate to the screen, because your vehement rejection of a simple phrase and concept with plenty of real-world evidence to back it up, suggests that you really do consider your own PoV paramount above all else. Self-centeredness is nothing to be ashamed of, on its own - it's merely being human - but your insistence upon your own framing, even when others have pointed out the flaws in it, frankly tells me that you're not as good of a listener as you'd like to think you are.

"...they believe that it's all about THEM and how THEY feel(as individuals, that is)."

This may be true, but I would still tend to trust the reliability of a person of color speaking on racism, over that of a white person. Because I know as a white person myself that I'm hardly an expert on racial issues, not having experienced systemic racism firsthand myself.

[AverageJoe90]

79. "but it doesn't translate to the screen," I'll admit I do sometimes fall short in that regard.

It happens.

[AverageJoe90]

103. Because "white privilege" sadly HAS confused a lot of people. That's the problem.

And I'm not the only one to have realized this, either.....whereas most people do indeed understand the concept class privilege.

I apologize for the wait, but Faryn Balyncd had a short but rather thoughtful comment to post on another thread, and I just now found it:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4938348

[bravenak]

104. Why? Please no more. Please just stop. Please stop.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4938639

[BainsBane]

105. So don't use the word.

Just quit trying to police other people's vocabulary.

[nomorenomore08]

106. #1. "White privilege" is admittedly not the most literal use of the word "privilege." But give

people a little credit for being able to understand nuance, and not being so hopelessly literal-minded - at least on a site like DU. This may not apply in less intellectual corners of the Internet.

#2. Why is race privilege so much harder to understand than class privilege? They operate in much the same way and have many of the same (both subtle and not-so-subtle) effects.

#3. "Authoritarian 'solution' of restricting 'privilege.'" What does this even mean? Honestly seems like something that poster pulled out of his/her ass.

[Midnight Writer]

44. Like Cliven Bundy

and his militia (and Fox News) defenders.

Is there anyone anywhere who doubts that the response would be very different if the white militia were instead a group of black or Native American or immigrant folk who were pointing guns at cops, regardless of their motives?

[BainsBane]

46. Perfect example.

[Fumesucker]

71. Or a group of liberals of any color or sex

I think Matt Bors had it exactly right with this cartoon.

[AverageJoe90]

87. Nice cartoon. Thanks for posting. Peace out. =)

[BainsBane]

119. Funny how that works

Nuts with guns are seen as less of a threat than protestors in tents.

[AverageJoe90]

76. Some truth here, to be honest.

Is there anyone anywhere who doubts that the response would be very different if the white militia were instead a group of black or Native American or immigrant folk who were pointing guns at cops, regardless of their motives?

No doubts in my mind. Hell, Ronnie Raygun even briefly came out in favor of gun control after the Black Panthers held a parade back on the West Coast in '69. And look what happened to AIM at Wounded Knee back in '73. So yeah, these discrepancies do exist, and I think most of us can agree on that, if nothing else.

[bravenak]

78. Thats a great example of white privilege.

You know, that thing you believe does not exist.

[KansDem]

133. Have you heard of the Black Panthers?

Last edited Mon May 12, 2014, 12:32 PM - Edit history (1)

I came of age during the '60s. I remember when the Black Panthers took a stance against racism. I remember reading one article in which a police officer described how he and his fellow officers "took notice" when the Black Panthers showed up marching and carrying guns.



Here are the "10 points" of the BPP in 1967--

Ten Point Program[edit]
The Black Panther Party first publicized its original Ten-Point program on May 15, 1967, following the Sacramento action, in the second issue of the Black Panther newspaper.[22] The original ten points of "What We Want Now!" follow:

We want freedom. We want power to determine the destiny of our Black Community.
We want full employment for our people.
We want an end to the robbery by the white men of our Black Community.
We want decent housing, fit for shelter of human beings.
We want education for our people that exposes the true nature of this decadent American society. We want education that teaches us our true history and our role in the present day society.
We want all Black men to be exempt from military service.
We want an immediate end to POLICE BRUTALITY and MURDER of Black people.
We want freedom for all Black men held in federal, state, county and city prisons and jails.
We want all Black people when brought to trial to be tried in court by a jury of their peer group or people from their Black Communities, as defined by the Constitution of the United States.
We want land, bread, housing, education, clothing, justice and peace.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Panther_Party

No mention of "white privilege"...

[Damansarajaya]

135. Exactly. If privilege is just racism as so many here argue . . .

then let's just call it racism.

Nobody has a problem with the term "racism."

[BainsBane]

149. Who argued that?

Provide links to these many posters.

[Damansarajaya]

192. See below

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4936022

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4941486


but talking about white privilege is just another way of saying, there is still a lot of institutional racism in this country.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4938010

[bravenak]

194. Yes i did say that.

White privilege is racism. So is white supremacy. They are just different manifestations of eugenics based racism.
U can use whatever words you want and i will use the words i want. Is it really your place to tell black people how to discuss racism in America? And just who granted you the authority to decide which words to use?
Whoever gave you the power to make those decisions is fired.

[Damansarajaya]

200. Fair enough.

I choose to NOT use "privilege," because outside of academia, most listeners don't know what it means, and it tends to hurt the cause IMHO.

"Is it really your place to tell black people how to discuss racism in America?"

We all have a stake in ending racism in America, no matter what our race. I believe that contributions can come from any quarter or as Lincoln writes, "with malice toward none, with charity for all,with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in." I'm not telling anyone what their feelings are or what their experiences are or the words they should use to express those experiences, but I do think I have some insight in the effects words have on the (white) people who need to be persuaded by those words.

[bravenak]

204. Goody for you.

Really. You may have something to say, advise to give. But i choose not to take your advise.
I personally do not care if my words make WP uncomfortable. They say really terrible things that make me uncomfortable every day.
Just yesterday some dude told me america should just be black and white. Like he thought i would be pleased that he didn't want me to go 'back' to Africa. He want to get rid of the Hispanics. So i started talking spanish to him. Stuff like this happens to me every time i go out it seems like.
You should go work on people like that. Not be my word nanny.

[Damansarajaya]

210. Wow. Sorry to hear about the abuse

you've encountered. It makes me ashamed of my country to hear stories like that.

"You should go to work on people like that." You are exactly right, and I will keep it in mind.

[BainsBane]

207. That isn't saying the only kind of privilege relates to race

but that white privilege does. In the OP I talk about other kinds of privilege, as do many of those members in other posts. You are misrepresenting their arguments. To say there is racism is not to say classism, sexism, or homophobia doesn't exist.

Why must you claim people say something they clearly have not? What you are objecting to is a discussion of racism and privilege as it relates to race. None of those people are claiming that is the only kind of discrimination or privilege. If they believed that, they wouldn't have rec'd this OP.

[Damansarajaya]

220. We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

I've made my position clear: as a tool for educating and persuading people in a racist society to be less racist, I feel rubbing people's faces in the notion of "privilege" is not helpful.

For more discussion, see http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4938029 and
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4930718 and
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024939326

You think that expressing that position is in itself racist.

So, we're not going to find common ground on this, but I respect your opinion and value your right to express it.

BTW, on edit, I agree with the OP and thought it used some excellent examples of white privilege that a lot of people wouldn't usually think about.

[BainsBane]

224. I'm glad you read it and gave it some thought

and please understand that I'm not trying to tell folks they should use the term privilege. Rather I'm simply trying to explain what others mean when they use the term. People are free to use whatever terms or concepts they want, and that includes posters who do choose to use the word privilege. Anyone who finds those discussions bothersome can trash them.

[BainsBane]

151. and how many were imprisoned as a result?

How long did Geronimo Pratt serve in prison? If something isn't mentioned in the sixties it doesn't count?

You don't have to ever use the term privilege if you don't want. You can ignore it, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. And it doesn't mean African Americans posters need to exclude words that make you feel uncomfortable.

I think the resistance to the term privilege is part of refusal to understand the more subtle forms of racism that each of us plays a role in perpetuating. People want to imagine racism is something that only Republicans or George Zimmmerman do. The fact is George Zimmerman thought something many people do when they see an African American male at night--that he must be dangerous. Most people don't then kill the person, but we are all raised with messages that associate black manhood with criminality. The concept of privilege is part of identifying one's own standing in a hierarchical society that privileges some above others.

[chervilant]

215. + a bazillion.

And, I am disgusted with the burgeoning number on this forum who deny their privilege, all the while acting defensive as though personally accused.

[BainsBane]

231. I believe it is about externalizing racism

pretending it's all the fault of the GOP, Southerners, the cops, but that they are immune from it. That's not the case. All of us are influenced by racist messages. Yet some are really reluctant to examine them.

[chervilant]

241. That is clearly an aspect of the denial

and the defensive posturing.

During graduate school, I attended a series of lectures on racism. I learned that racism is bigotry or prejudice with the additional 'power over' bestowed by patriarchal privilege. I was willing and able to examine my own racism, and to engage those brave 'minority' academics who were working for equality and gnossis.

I am hopeful that the few herein who remain defensive -- and in denial -- will stop denigrating you and your essential posts.

Thanks for your activism and your important contributions to this community.

[BainsBane]

275. Thanks very much, chervilant

Your support means a lot.

[geardaddy]

196. This ^

I was thinking about that the other day. I remember seeing the news coverage on the Pine Ridge standoff when I was a kid.

Cliven Bundy, white
Leonard Peltier and the other AIM protestor, not white.

[bravenak]

99. This thread has made me want to scratch my face off.

Your original post was so good. Thank you, you made very good points, i'm going to bookmark this one for future reference.
I feel bad that you even felt the need to write this.

[BainsBane]

120. It's really just been one member

Plus a few trolls that were zapped right away. It's just that the one person is, shall we say, highly dedicated.

[riqster]

107. Oh hellz yeah.

Never seen it said better. Bravo!

[JustAnotherGen]

108. BB

I miss all the fun in the middle of the night! Brava! Brilliant post!

But - I have an idea on how to stop some of the trolling on this topic. Take a page from TheMagistrate's book - he's always cool calm and collected. Then take a page from mine - dismiss and move on or ignore and move on. I know it's difficult at times - but personally I'm through trying to explain to people who truly do not wish to see things as they are from a space/place of needing attention and fulfillment from a web site - how things are.

I wish I could be a bit more direct on that - but I can't. You know who they are. You know what they do.

Me? They are dismissed. I'm not going to argue with that type of person . . . they are beneath me.

[URL=http://gifsoup.com/view/2416213/the-breakfast-club.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL] [URL=http://gifsoup.com]GIFSoup[/URL]

[BainsBane]

112. You're right, of course

I had planned on ignoring him, but somehow I got pulled in.

[JustAnotherGen]

113. Eh? We all make mistakes

Sometimes!

Remember this - little boys that pull your hair do not like you and are not your friend.

[BainsBane]

115. A basic lesson

I never quite learned.

[el_bryanto]

109. Well said. nt

[myrna minx]

111. K&R n/t

[Starry Messenger]

114. K&R

[Bettie]

118. Well Said!

Too many people see an attack, when someone suggests that they have privilege based on various factors.

As a straight, middle class, white woman, I know I am privileged in many ways, even with the struggles I've had.

[CrispyQ]

125. I have race & class privilege & see it every time I ride the bus.

I'm always the last person that someone sits beside on the bus. They will sit by men, kids, and women of color before they take the seat next to mine.

It's been very humbling, riding the bus, to see the privilege. I think we would have a much kinder society if everyone had to ride the bus for one year & work retail the next year. We'll be kind & not make you do both the same year.

[BainsBane]

154. Why do you think that is?

I'm not sure I quite follow your argument. Though having ridden the bus for years (I now drive), I believe you don't really know a city if you don't take public transportation. You see a whole word that people in cars don't.

[CrispyQ]

167. I think it's a kind of respect for my space, a reluctance to infringe upon my space,

because society views me, an older, well-off white woman, as privileged. I talked to a friend about this & she thinks the way I wear my hair adds to it. I wear it in a French twist & according to her, I look "elegant." Elegant is not a word I would ever use to describe myself, ~lol. Maybe stately would be a better word.

I'm just speculating, but I ride the bus all the time & it's amazing for me to observe.

[ancianita]

128. I got suspended from FSU for exercising the same curfew rights as campus men. I also lost a job

from Bell Telephone and was explicitly told that it was because I was pregnant.

Those privilege-based double standards set my life advancements back by a few years. Neither of those discriminations exist any longer, but the damage done to millions of older women like me has affected our later lives whether we overcame them or not.

I'm aware that I still have privilege, but I don't support systems that prop it.

[awoke_in_2003]

129. K&R. nt

[DesertDiamond]

131. As a fellow middle-class white chick -- well said, BainsBane! Really amazes me how anyone could

be unable to see it from the perspective of someone else's life. As I commented recently when a woman who was - what, in her 70's? 80's? can't remember - but the police broke down her door and handcuffed her for alleged drug possession. If it were my mom, even if they thought she had drugs, they would not have treated her that way.

How hard is it to understand what other people go through???

[BlancheSplanchnik]

132. hear here!!! So well put.

Astounding that there are people who don't Get It.

How can anyone not get this?

[bettyellen]

134. Yay, not one post about "female privilege" because ladies nights at bars

And not "having to ask people on dates" are not actually things that actually useful advantages being conferred on us.

[redqueen]

153. That's because the main topic is white privilege.

If it was male privilege that was the main focus we would see the usual, I'm sure.

[bettyellen]

159. oops, you are right. I already got scolded about not caring about equality because I'm not working

to convince boys' parents to actually use the opportunities they already have, like getting admitted to charter schools. Also, my bad for not camapaigning for men to USE the health insurance they have.

I also did not put mens socks in the hamper so they have equal laundry, LOL.

[BainsBane]

166. ah the old MRA talking point

Feminists are required to fight for men's issues because women are responsible for serving men.

[bettyellen]

168. we are supposed to have equal opportunity, but not make better use of it! FUCK THAT, LOL.

[JustAnotherGen]

171. I love you!

I just do!

I call it my husband's magical mythical world where things JUST happen. I didn't know I had to do that shit for every single man on the planet. You know - so I could keep their self esteem up or something like that.

[bettyellen]

179. I love you too Gen!

[redqueen]

177. LOL

[bettyellen]

181. It reminds me of the convulted logic employed to try to convince me to do my brothers laundry....

even though I was in school and working, and they were in school and drinking. Guess who are stuck in miserable marriages just because they never learned how to do any household work? HA.

[CANDO]

137. Where you go astray....

is the implication that this so called "privilege" is the problem, and therefore that "privilege" needs taken away. No, to the contrary, discrimination needs to stop. So Zimmerman targeted a black kid with a hoodie, and it's my white male existence that is to blame? Zimmerman is of ethnic origin. Many Black and Hispanic law enforcement participate in racial profiling. And according to this "privilege" theme, white men are the reason they do it? So what the hell, let's just discriminate against everyone and we won't have any more "privilege". Problem solved! The problem with all these "privilege" threads, is that "privilege" is cast as the problem instead of discrimination.

[NCTraveler]

143. "Zimmerman is of ethnic origin." lol nt

[BainsBane]

152. No, you don't get it

Try reading again.

[JustAnotherGen]

162. Can you point me to references

From each of those threads?

The problem with all these "privilege" threads, is that "privilege" is cast as the problem instead of discrimination.

Just because I don't recall anyone making that point except for those whose shorts were bunched up in their ass over the topic.

[JustAnotherGen]

163. Here was my thread/op on white privilege

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024379495

I clearly pointed out the problem was the social constructs that we navigate daily.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

140. I am more privileged that (sic) some in terms of class but less privileged than others.

Last edited Mon May 12, 2014, 01:31 PM - Edit history (1)

That is me. K&R

[GoneFishin]

144. Good job articulating that. Thanks.

[BainsBane]

145. Someone alerted on my OP

One of the jurors sent me the results.

On Mon May 12, 2014, 10:02 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

Privilege = shit you don't have to put up with
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024941179

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Just another in a long line of threads posted for no reason but to be passive aggressive flame bait.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Mon May 12, 2014, 10:13 AM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Really weak alert on a reasonable, non-flame bait post...
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Why oh why are you wasting my time with this crap?
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: This poster does nothing but pick a hot topic and post flame bait OPs on it constantly, here or at the cave and I agree with the poster who alerted.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[NCTraveler]

150. To the person who sent the alert.

"Just another in a long line of threads posted for no reason but to be passive aggressive flame bait. "

You, more than anyone, need to read this op over and over again. You should not post on the subject until you have educated yourself. The current place you reside is a little community called ignorance. Reading ops like this can and will help you move to a better location.

[BainsBane]

161. When people decide the subject itself is illegtimate

they aren't interested in paying attention. Sadly, that extends to most threads involving racism and sexism.

[JustAnotherGen]

156. Well slap my ass and call me sally!

Who knew this was flame bait?

[M0rpheus]

164. Maybe this is what happens when they read it?

Would 'splain a lot...

[JustAnotherGen]

170. Oh - that's not good

[URL=http://gifsoup.com/view/255307/lady-makers-her-eyes-pop-out.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL] [URL=http://gifsoup.com]GIFSoup[/URL]


Pssst - someone brought up the Black Panthers again! That's it - next time someone does that I'm bringing up John Brown as an example!

[M0rpheus]

172. I still have that other GIF in reserve!

Patiently waiting...

On a separate note, the woman in the gif is an acquaintance. It's even weirder in real life!

[JustAnotherGen]

174. Get out!

Shut up! You are acquainted with her? That's gotta be cool to see up close!

And love Buscemi. That' s a great gif.

[M0rpheus]

244. Up close and personal, it's... um... yeah...

I only asked once, while intoxicated.
Once only, because EEEEVERYBODY asks her to do it when they find out and second, because I was honestly freaked out!
It's one thing on TV. It's a whole 'nother thing up close and personal.

Steve violates my general Gif rule, but it was the right one for the moment.

[BainsBane]

228. I want to know where you keep

the stockpile of Idris Elba gifs. Fess up!

[M0rpheus]

242. Idris says...

"I'm not sure. What will you do with this knowledge?"

[BainsBane]

245. It's solely for research purposes

Honest.

[M0rpheus]

246. Reallly?

Well that's all right then!

[BainsBane]

247. :)

[M0rpheus]

254. Emergency!

We've got a fainter over here!

[sheshe2]

277. ~ MO

You are magnificent~

[M0rpheus]

292. Nah... I just have no gosh darned sense.

But for your compliments, I give you "Dubstep stormtroopers"!


Why? I really have no clue!

[JustAnotherGen]

252. God daaaammmmn!

I need to turn the a.c. On!

[M0rpheus]

253. Noooooo!

Idris will not have The Gio looking for him.



Keep it coool over there!

[BainsBane]

272. She's fickle anyway

Next thing you know she'll be talking about Leonardo DiCaprio. I, on the other hand, am unwavering in my devotion.

[M0rpheus]

293. Hmmm... Idris loves loyalty!

[JustAnotherGen]

287. Oh - The Gio knows

He knows about that, Sidney Poitier AND Robert Redford!

ETA - and he'll tell you it pisses him off that he doesn't look a damn thing like anyone of them. So I started telling him the guy who plays Captain Hook on Once Upon A Time is hot and that has held him at bay.

[M0rpheus]

291. Idris says...

"That's good stuff!"

[BainsBane]

173. Nat Turner never mentioned "white privlege"

Why should you?

[JustAnotherGen]

175. Neither did

Harriet Tubman. Shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit.



Pssst - I love that little girl.

[BainsBane]

176. Sojourner Truth spoke about white male privilege, even if she didn't use the word.

"Ain't I a Woman?", December 1851

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sojourner Truth (1797-1883): Ain't I A Woman?
Delivered 1851
Women's Convention, Akron, Ohio


Well, children, where there is so much racket there must be something out of kilter. I think that 'twixt the negroes of the South and the women at the North, all talking about rights, the white men will be in a fix pretty soon. But what's all this here talking about?

That man over there says that women need to be helped into carriages, and lifted over ditches, and to have the best place everywhere. Nobody ever helps me into carriages, or over mud-puddles, or gives me any best place! And ain't I a woman? Look at me! Look at my arm! I have ploughed and planted, and gathered into barns, and no man could head me! And ain't I a woman? I could work as much and eat as much as a man - when I could get it - and bear the lash as well! And ain't I a woman? I have borne thirteen children, and seen most all sold off to slavery, and when I cried out with my mother's grief, none but Jesus heard me! And ain't I a woman?

Then they talk about this thing in the head; what's this they call it? [member of audience whispers, "intellect"] That's it, honey. What's that got to do with women's rights or negroes' rights? If my cup won't hold but a pint, and yours holds a quart, wouldn't you be mean not to let me have my little half measure full?

Then that little man in black there, he says women can't have as much rights as men, 'cause Christ wasn't a woman! Where did your Christ come from? Where did your Christ come from? From God and a woman! Man had nothing to do with Him.

If the first woman God ever made was strong enough to turn the world upside down all alone, these women together ought to be able to turn it back , and get it right side up again! And now they is asking to do it, the men better let them.

Obliged to you for hearing me, and now old Sojourner ain't got nothing more to say.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/sojtruth-woman.asp



"I think that 'twixt the negroes of the South and the women at the North, all talking about rights, the white men will be in a fix pretty soon." They are still in a fix.

[JustAnotherGen]

178. Too late - I started a list

Since she NEVER said it EXACTLY as 'w.p.' - then I'm keeping her on it!

This way we can just direct folks back to that list everytime they want to find someone who never said white privilege that lived 100 years ago.

[nomorenomore08]

250. What a tremendously powerful speech. And sadly, in some ways we're fighting same battles

as 150 years ago. So long as people are unable to see the Other as fully human, the struggle will continue.

[Gothmog]

157. Karen Finney on Disrupt on Sunday had a good segment on Does ‘privilege-checking’ shut down debate?

I really enjoy Disrupt with Karen Finney and found this discussion to be interesting http://www.msnbc.com/disrupt/watch/does-privilege-checking-shut-down-debate-253246531519

[stage left]

158. K&R

Great post--clear and to the point. "It just means there is shit as a straight white person I don't have to put up with." I don't understand what's not to understand about that statement.

[Comrade Grumpy]

180. So...what? Privilege check done. Now what?

[Burma Jones]

183. Here are but a few examples of White Male privilege from my own experience.....

Getting pulled over by Houston Cops for doing 80 in a 55 back when I was 23, I was drunk and had a 9mm Beretta on the passenger seat, it was my Mom's car, she had a different last name than me and I had an out of state license. I got a warning........

Being caught four or five times with "youthful indiscretion" materials....the materials were dumped on the ground and we were told to "move along"

Being pulled over while driving an Infiniti in not so nice neighborhoods and having the cop see my face and say "Oh, not you" - this happened three times.

In fact, the only time I was frisked and handcuffed was when my Brother, some friends and I were sitting in a car near a railroad bridge reputed to be haunted. No Beer, no Booze, no Weed, BUT, the driver was, wait for it, BLACK.....Oh and a member of a group that reenacted Viking Battles, so there was a sword and an intimidating curvy bladed dagger. Anyway, guns were drawn, yelling and shoving occurred, we were handcuffed until a more senior officer showed up, heard our story, told the younger cops that kids did this all the time and let us go.

Those are the obvious examples.......

The more subtle examples include people responding more positively to things I say at work, being treated with respect before I open my mouth, not being suspected of jeez, whatever....I'm also well educated and affluent and that was made easier by being a white male. I did work long hours and paid dues....but my race and class helped get me entry into a place where I COULD work those hours and pay those dues.

So, I tell my kids that goddamn straight there's white privilege.....fortunately, my kids are friends with enough of a mix to have heard the stories themselves and to have witnessed it among their peers, so it's not just their Parents telling then this.

[BainsBane]

230. Wow. That is intense

You certainly are lucky. Imagine if you were black. You'd be in prison now.

[Burma Jones]

289. Prison if I were lucky........

[sheshe2]

184. Brava~ BainsBane!

[Dems to Win]

188. I prefer to call these things 'Human rights' rather than 'privileges'

It's my human right to drive down the street and not get pulled over by a cop unless I'm actually breaking a traffic law.

We have continuing work to do to protect everyone's human rights in all circumstances, for sure. But that's what we should be striving to do.

[BainsBane]

202. You of course are free to call it what you like

Just as others should be free to use the term privilege.

[Lady Freedom Returns]

198. That first pargraph kind is something I have faced.

On the Streets, you like to keep close to those you can trust. Well, with me being a "White Female", I was what some called a "Cop Blocker. When in a group, I would sleep somewhat hidden, where the others would be heavy hidden. The cops would see me first and look away.

"Poor thing, she need to rest and she ain't causing any trouble." kind of thinking kept them from looking closer and seeing the others. Some were Male African-Americans.

[scarletwoman]

205. Excellent! Very well said!

This is the very best explanation of the concept I've ever seen on DU.

[WCLinolVir]

216. As someone who grew up poor, poverty is also a huge stigma.

No amount of whiteness could ever erase the discomfort that other kids parents felt when they saw my holey shoes and unkempt appearance. I had to steal to eat and my clothes were dirty. I went to school because I was afraid to stay home alone. I was abused, neglected and carried a butcher knife for protection at age 7 because we lived in a dangerous area. And no amount of any color can change
what that does to a child. Adding racism creates another layer.
If you had told me I was privileged I would not have understood what you were talking about. I had AA friends with nice houses and two parents. Who did not want their children to associate with me.

[heaven05]

225. to sooth the savage beasts

here, I will say unequivocally that the white race in this country, especially white males take for granted and enjoy privileges and entitlements that minorities of all persuasions CANNOT count on. No if, and or buts about it. People on here whine, obfuscate and soft soap about the meaning and privilege inherent in those two words and I find their distraction, laughable. Grow up, smell the privilege that is still here, in america, for a certain race of human. What privilege has been explained here in detail, so I won't bore you with my list. Thanks BainsBane! I enjoyed, again, seeing the denial folks come out whining.

[etherealtruth]

232. You hit one out of the park with this post!

Perhaps those that clearly don't understand the concept will take the time to reflect on this. Personal growth is always possible and is always good!

[BainsBane]

233. Thanks, etherealtruth! nt

[noiretextatique]

236. it is really quite simple

i can't presume to know the shit that men and/or white people have to contend with, so why do others claim to know more about my experience as black and female than i do? i think therein lies the problem.

[WillyT]

237. K & R !!!

[bhikkhu]

248. Totally agree

and a few more threads on the topic are well worthwhile, as the more it is discussed the more people think about it, and the better the odds are that the tide may turn, some day.

As a straight white male, I can relate - there are so many things I've just never had to worry about. I've always been given the benefit of the doubt, and generally had no problems with the basic stuff - getting a job or job training, being trusted in most situations, qualifying for loans and things, all kinds of thing that are taken for granted.

Back when I worked for GM in an office/phone job that required some mechanical knowledge, my second year there I was transferred to another office (a good opportunity they gave me because I asked), where most of the people doing the same job were women. They were very good at it and had more years of specific experience than me, but I soon learned that they were all paid about 30% less than me. Why? I can't think of any reason other than that they were women; valued less, considered more replaceable and less likely to move on or find better opportunities. It was a good job, but the whole thing kind of poisoned the working environment and I quit after another 6 months...plenty of other anecdotes I could think of over the years, and I'm sure I'm far from alone.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

258. I tried to get straight married in 1979 and was refused.

This was in Texas. It's a common law marriage state.

My intended husbo and I went to the Bexar County Clerk and attempted to register a Declaration of Common-Law Marriage.

The clerk tore up three forms because I refused to change my last name, as a female.

I asked him "Show me where in the Texas Family Code where it says I have to change my name." I knew I didn't have to change my name because my daddy was a family lawyer.

This clerk refused to file a common-law marriage and follow the state of Texas' laws. So that was a misdemeanor.

We went to a lawyer and he said "Go to the JP, get a marriage license and have a regular ceremonial marriage."

So I was discriminated as a female by refusing to change my name, as a female.

[betsuni]

259. I don't believe in "white men"

I know some people adhere to the "white man" theory, but I disagree. Now, "white men" are very much a factual reality for MANY Persons Without Color, I don't deny this. It is the opinion that "white men" is THE reality instead of a term that is merely used by some to describe such reality that is the problem. I live in the suburbs of a Japanese city where there are very few foreigners. It's been well over a year since I saw a "white man." I know some will disagree with my disagreement, but I'm entitled to my opinion!

[bravenak]

261. How could you do this to me?!?

You mean they aren't real???
I need my Obamacare to see a mental health professional.

I blame eugenics.

[BainsBane]

262. .

Now, "white men" are very much a factual reality for MANY Persons Without Color, I don't deny this. It is the opinion that "white men" is THE reality instead of a term that is merely used by some to describe such reality that is the problem.

[bravenak]

264. I know what it says, but WHAT THE HECK DOES IT MEAN??

Will somebody explicame? Por favor?

I took it to mean that white men are like bigfoot, in a way that there have been many sightings, but no proof of them existing exists!?!?
Or ufo's?

I'll figure out this word scramble even if it takes me all night.

[BainsBane]

265. I'm stuck on people without color.

[bravenak]

268. I'm just stuck.

I wish i could get an explanation but i might not like it so i wont ask.

[betsuni]

270. See post #54

[bravenak]

271. You got me.

I get it.

[betsuni]

274. I thought

after this whole thread about how it's not possible to disbelieve in things that obviously exist just because you don't experience them yourself, that my attempt at a funny would be obvious. It was not. That anyone would think I was serious ... I must seem more intellectually challenged than I thought. I am sad now.

[bravenak]

278. Itz my fault.

My bad. I shoulda read the thread again first.

[betsuni]

285. No, no, my fault

I've been lurking here for a decade but only decided to post recently. Low post count persons do not get benefit of the doubt privilege. It's a gamble, like buying fruit.

[betsuni]

263. Well,

if I can't see them they aren't real, obviously. I am the decider.

[bravenak]

266. Well then, good decision.

Were they raptured? Can we rescue them? Are they ghost people? Is magic involved in any way?
If we have contact with one, how should we behave? Are there any words that we cannot use in their presence? I need to know these things.

[BainsBane]

269. Raptured

[BainsBane]

267. They aren't real because you don't think race matters?

Or simply because you live in Japan and haven't seen any Caucasian men in a while?

[betsuni]

290. What?

I "haven't seen any Caucasian men in a while?" How would I know if they came from the Caucasus Mountain region? Huh? Clearly, you think I'm an idiot. Way to go! Thanks a lot. Maybe that's shit I don't have to put up with.

[bravenak]

294. This was awesome!!

The best thing i have read in a while on DU and we have been having some good ones lately.

I don't believe in white men...

If i can't see them they don't exist.

Caucasus mountains!


The shit i don't have to put up with.


Thank you so much.

You just killed me!

[LeftyMom]

279. It's odd how many of DU's chronically aggreived white guys live in Asia.

I wonder what the deal is with that.

[bravenak]

281. It was a joke.

If she can't see them, they don't exist.

[nomorenomore08]

295. They think American women are too "uppity" or something? Like the mail-order-bride dudes? n/t

[Heidi]

286. Kick, kick, kick!!!