A frustrated parent responds on a Common Core assignment. Looks like it's back to the old New Math.

[madfloridian]

I had to teach that a few years. It was pretty awful to get across. It made the parents angry that they had to help their kids unlearn a simple quick method to get across understanding of a complicated way.

Frustrated Mom's answers on Common Core assignment.



Long page with interesting comments.

[madfloridian]

1. Parent is right. In real world simplication is valued over complicated.

I know, I know, they say the kids have to understand the process. Some will, some never will. The process they are supposed to understand can be taught in the classroom, does not have to be on a high-stakes test.

[Tansy_Gold]

2. What's really frightening about this. . . .

. . . .is that I have never seen this so-called "common core" approach to basic arithmetic before in my life, but even so, I was able to understand it immediately, even to the point of being able to see "Jack's" mistake. And being able to see it -- even if my understanding of it isn't exactly what the "common core" concept is supposed to be teaching -- I can see how badly it works, and how unnecessarily complicated it makes basic arithmetic.

If the bottom level basics are made complicated -- addition, subtraction, multiplication, division -- students who are marginal on the upper end (the b- to c+ students) are likely to become confused, frustrated, and ultimately discouraged, while those who are marginal on the lower end (C and below) will simply be culled. And they will be culled at a very early age, thus shunted out of not only math but science and technology, pushed into "remedial" level general studies classes, and even denied cultural enrichment classes such as art, music, drama, history, literature.

The Frustrated Parent is correct: The process used is stupid and illogical, and offers too many chances for error.

I was among some of the first classes to be taught "New Math" in the early 1960s. That was a joke. This is an insult.

[The Magistrate]

3. On The Courteous Assumption This Is Real, Ma'am, I Would Sympathize With The Parent

My grandsons call it 'torturing them with arithmetic' when I make them solve multiplication problems in their heads, without calculators or pencil and paper. What I try and get across to them by it is factoring, so they can break a large problem down into smaller pieces. I suppose this 'number line' thing is aimed at the same ability to make small ones out of big ones, but it certainly does not leap off the page as something useful....

[madfloridian]

8. It's real.

Ask teachers who taught the old New Math....it's real. I always liked teaching the number line, but the way this is presented is ridiculously confusing.

[The Magistrate]

9. I Bow To Your Expertise, Ma'am

It has been a long, long time since anyone taught me arithmetic....

[joshcryer]

119. They're trying to disconnect algorithms from concepts.

They are not replacing the algorithmic methods that are more commonly known. It is an addition to the curriculum not a replacement.

[TreasonousBastard]

4. Not only is the page a rightwing screed, but...

it took me maybe 10 seconds to figure out that 127-10 is 117, not 107. And I don't do differential equations for a living.

Not that I agree for a minute that this is the way to teach arithmetic-- quite frankly I am neither a teacher nor mathematician and have no idea how to teach it. But, aside from cranky parents complaining, what actual, honest to God research do we have on how well this works, or doesn't work, compared to the old ways?

I have had some very small experience with kids who could't grasp principles taught in traditional ways but were receptive to alternative symbols and methods. That may or may not mean that alternative methods could, or should, be used generally.

[madfloridian]

7. Explain your reference to "rightwing screed".

If you don't mind.

Yes, the directions say there is an error. And you found it. So did I.

[TreasonousBastard]

10. Read the comments about how it's all a liberal conspiracy...

and Lori is right there egging them on.

And again I ask who is this hotshot engineer who can't figure it out when most of here did with no problem?

[madfloridian]

17. I think the "hotshot engineer" was referring to process mostly.

Frankly, I taught it and I see no purpose in the use of the number line in that way.

But then that is your perfect right to approve of it. I have no gripe that you feel that way.

[TreasonousBastard]

21. Where do you get the idea I approve of it? I thought...

I distinctly said I don't know.

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. Well that is a RW Facebook meme

I have seen it a few times. And in their eyes common core is a lin'rul conspiracy to take away education from true Americans. I heard something very close to this at a local board meeting.

The concept of common core is not a bad concept, the implementation has been horrific. And that will byte these people in the rear and then some. But the concept us not a bad idea. Countries around the world use similar things in federalized systems, where kids do lean the same concepts at same grade level.

I would love to see this implemented the way Sweden does, there is no high stakes testing, but you can bet they have something like common core as far as what kids should master.

My cynical side, educators who are well paid, no high stakes testing, and kids who learn critical thinking...I have no idea what could go wrong if you are an oligarchy?

[madfloridian]

16. Okay, let's have one curriculum thru the whole country.

And it will be set by testmakers who determine the agenda.

Actually this post was more about the kind of concepts that have a place in the classroom but not on a test.

There must be something wrong with the content since teachers and parents are rising up against whenever they have experienced it. It starts full speed next year.

[Skidmore]

34. I don't think it is necessarily a bad thing to have

a basic curriculum given the assaults, some successful,on all aspects of education brought on by some in this nation. Look at the hits to textbooks and science in recent years. A basic national curriculum would even things out.

[madfloridian]

41. Do you realize that testing companies will set that curriculum in large part?

Actually they already are. Since one of the largest, Pearson, is under investigation a lot...makes one wonder.

[Skidmore]

47. Is that the only way it can be done?

It seems to me that is the tail wagging the dog. Testing is the back end of education. Input of knowledge is the front end. Why not have discourse on what skills and knowledge is considered essential to participate in this nation and work forward from that? I do think the basics should not be left to the prejudices of local school districts nor, for that matter, should financing of schools. Where we can promote equality, we should.

[madfloridian]

49. I agree, but that is the way it is being done.

The tests are made in secret and are graded in secret. No one really knows what the agenda will be.

Here's an article about the gag order imposed on educators by Pearson.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/10/opinion/the-problem-with-the-common-core.html?_r=0

And another

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/04/protests-grow-against-nyc-standardized-tests.html

[nadinbrzezinski]

64. I hate to point this out

But San Diego unified does not share your views. They truly and absolutely love it, and to top it off...it is the law statewide.

[madfloridian]

33. The "left" is equally strong in opposition to increased testing.

And to most of Arne Duncan's privatization efforts.

Obama is not opposed apparently, and that may keep many educators from the polls for other Democrats.

It worries me a lot. We need every vote we can get. But teachers in danger of losing their jobs because of one test made in secret are not feeling the love right now.

[zazen]

55. agreed; I detest the Common Core and am glad our crazy NC GOP is trying to eliminate it

The implementation here in North Carolina has been horrific, and the neoliberal education establishment (Dem and Rep) that has supported it seems to be digging in deeper. The schools of education at universities are chasing the Gates and US Dept of Ed money and so none dare speak out against it.

This has HARMED my daughter. I just looked into opting out of the testing yesterday. The curriculum, the poorly designed teacher-created materials with mistakes in them, the outrageous, punitive testing, is idiotic. I can't write calmly about it because it enrages me every time I encounter the topic (obviously).

You are right--even though this has nothing to do with progressive values, low-information voters will remember how frustrated they are with an idiotic daily practice inflicted on their children and associate it with ALL Democrats and perhaps vote Republican or not vote at all (even though it's driven by corporatist Dems and Republicans.)

[nadinbrzezinski]

66. Look up Sweeden

Expand your horizons a tad.

Once again, the concept is not the problem, it is the implementation of it.

[madfloridian]

68. Testing IS the problem...it is excessive. Fails both students and teachers.

[nadinbrzezinski]

72. Testing *is implementation.*

This is an ancient trick on military leadership that I learned in Mexico, and coincidentally my husband learned in the US navy (it works)

1. Treat everybody like you want to be treated.

2.- When you point out a problem (in this case excessive testing) not only tell me it is a problem, give me a solution, sometimes a few. Look up any of the Nordic countries and what they do. That is quite frankly part of the solution.

Also, another lesson of military leadership, never ever talk in absolutes. It will byte you in the ass. Some places are up in arms with it. Many teachers are up in arms, but San Diego unified has actually had a lot of success with it in inner city schools, that traditionally have been a dumping ground. No, none that I have ever talked likes the testing (the problem) and they have to do it, it's the law, but kids are actually doing much better.

Alas, my beat is politics (and wildfires) but education is part of it as well from time to time. So yes, common core critiques *are* in my stack of holiday reading and already read Ravitch by the way.

Comparing to other districts in the region the system is doing much better than they used to, in particular with at risk students. Part of it, I blame the new superintendent, she has one of the most positive attitudes like ever, and right now they are testing a variation that includes...perish the thought, critical thinking skills and reading at or beyond grade level by most students. It used to be at level for most students under the previous super.

She is...quite frankly, infectious. And I have yet to meet any other super in this region that is as committed to the kids and the schools.

We get it, you hate the testing. A lot of parents hate the testing...the intent of common core in theory comes from military brats, who at times gained (or lost) grade levels when moving from post to post. The concept is simple, and common across advanced economies. If you move from Pearl Harbor (horrific system by the way) to oh, San Diego Unified, you will be able to stay in grade, because everybody has learned the same concepts in the two systems. That is a laudable goal, one of the few things that former President Bush did right.

The problem, as you keep telling us is the excessive testing. Coincidentally Neil Bush makes testing material. I know you love to blame Arne Duncan for all of this, but the testing emphasis started under the Bush administration. And it not just benefited Neil. Common Core as implemented, benefited the Text Book publishers in Texas, which produce most of the books nationwide.

A solution would be that these textbooks are published by the Feds and distributed for free...your neighbor to the south does this. Kids get fresh new books every year in grammar school. They are produced in cheap news print, but every kid gets a new book every year per subject matter. In theory every kid in the Nayarit school system is learning the same core material, here I go again using that term in a global context, as a kid in Mexico City.

Alas, since we love to copy the hated Uncle Sam they have implemented school reforms (some of them way overdue) that have teachers up in arms. And testing is at issue by the way. So is teacher cert and continuing education. Testing, not such a good idea, certification and continuing education, absolutely.

Another lesson from watching policy, once you got one going, turning that ship around is incredible hard. They develop a life of their own. So you need to come up with solutions, and going back to local control, I think that ship has sailed.

[muriel_volestrangler]

26. It also uses the hashtag #tcot, which I find is "top conservatives on twitter"

It's a bat-signal for conservative politicians, writers and bloggers who want something to complain about.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/top-conservatives-on-twitter-fail
http://blog.sfgate.com/ybenjamin/2010/07/27/the-secret-twitter-war-for-americas-independents-tcot-vs-p2/
http://www.ibtimes.com/what-does-tcot-mean-about-tcot-hashtag-top-conservatives-use-twitter-1109812

[madfloridian]

29. Both left and right are strong in opposition to common core, and usually to Arne's "reforms".

Last edited Mon May 12, 2014, 10:05 AM - Edit history (1)

Actually I should say the right is vehemently opposed, and the left doesn't really care. Teachers care, parents care, but at many Dem forums it is considered disloyal to oppose. So you can rest assured that you will see that kind of post all around with or with the hashtag. It was in my "liberal" twitter feed.

They are starting to test kindergarteners now with such tests made in a proprietary manner by testmaking companies.

It is not just teachers and parents who are "left" who are opposed to the new reforms....though the reasons may be different.

Parents and teachers are starting to opt out of such testing around the country. It's a growing movement.

The common core tests are fully implemented in 2015, but the testing like this has gone on several years.

[hollysmom]

22. that's not the error

if the answer is 57 - than they used the ones digits as tens digid and never did the 10/ If that answer is 121, whcih I cn't see fromtaht line,then they forgot to subtract the 10'as digits and just subtracted the ones.

I find it kind of screwy from the directions.

Ah, how well do I remember the new math, I had come back from my sophomore year at college to find my brother doing group theory in 3rd grade as I was doing as a math major. Now if he were prepared,it would not have been so bad, but they just switched over as if he had been taught this way all along. I had to go to school to speak to them as the family rep because I was the only one who knew what they were trying to do. I plead his case, and I really think they abandoned it before the year was out, but my brother was given a pass on that one test.

[alp227]

5. Frustrated Parent, realize the Real World is...DUMB!

Right wingers champion capitalism, individualism, all that "free market" crap "BECAUSE THE REAL WORLD"...never mind that the real world is unfriendly and cruel at too many times. The anti intellectualism in this country is so disgusting.

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. You know what is amazing

Back in school (junior high) we got one kid from Israel. He was the son of a Hebrew teacher that came for a three year stint. This kid,Ilan was his name, drove most of the teachers batty...and the rest of us. The way he was taught long division reminds me a tad of this. The way we were taught would look very familiar to you. So this is not new, just bringing something that I suspect is used somewhere else, but ramming it in.

I saw one exercise on FB and literally was racking my brain where I saw something like that. Well, back in school.

Mind you, our algebra teacher was older than Moses, but had quite a keen eye with chalk to keep kids in order. He was the one who had the least trouble bridging the gap. He went to the German Lyceum with Noah. I should not make those jokes, but when you are 11... An 82 year old (who loved to teach, the school allowed him to teach, private school) looks down right ancient.

By the way, this teacher, we all called him professor and sir, taught until he was 95. He never had kids, so his will went to the school. He wanted to create mathematicians, physicists and scientists. And while math was his...never ever get into a logic argument with the man. Of course, as a kid we just thought he was odd...we're pre-Tweens. These days I know he taught me a lot beyond algebra 1

As to Ilan, after three years he went back home, where our strange math...did not exist.

[unblock]

12. ah, the celebration of willful, determined ignorance and stupidity.

frustrated parent evidently wants the school to stop trying to teach jack something useful like mathematics and focus on training jack like a monkey to perform numerical tricks like a pocket calculator.


the problem was and always will be that parents dread the moment that their child comes home with a homework assignment to which they don't know the answer. their egos can't handle the notion that they, adults, don't understand a concept that the school is saying that first graders should understand.

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. That is a large part of it

But part of it is that it looks alien. As I told MF I saw something similar to Common Core math in Junior High in Mexico City, and it had nothing to do with common core. It is a common teaching device in Europe and Israel, private school, some courses were in Hebrew, so school bought some Israeli faculty, and they brought their kids. Those kids drove teachers and students alike batty, but once they explained long division and carrying and not using mind tricks but writing down things...it looks complex, but it is not that crazy.

Also, my mom went to school in the American School in Mexico City, and her books from HS had very different math solutions, in the how to do it, from the new fangled math we kids learned. My mom is old enough to have taught the OP in High School.

The only constant is change. That said, high stakes testing is a problem, and I am very critical of it. I suspect I would have flunked out of school. I was an extremely poor test taker.

[madfloridian]

18. I consider your last paragraph insulting to parents who really care about their children.

They want them taught in a sensible way, and they want the tests to reflect that.

But of course, most people think teachers and schools deserve what they get. They consider they have it coming.

[unblock]

52. that paragraph was in the context of the op, which

featured a note advocating the "there, it's done" method of subtraction.

taken out of this context and applied instead to the parents you describe, sure, that would be insulting.
i didn't mean for it to be applied there.

[mathematic]

13. Anybody that doesn't understand the geometric interpretation of subtraction

should not be teaching math. That includes the parent who studied "higher-math applications".

Subtraction, as a concept, can be understood as a change of position on a line. In this case, a conveniently labeled line.

The problem in the OP has nothing to do with New Math, which was about teaching basic math using the language and formalism of set theory. That program failed because it was the math equivalent of learning to do a gymnastics floor routine before learning to crawl.

"I don't understand this what are they teaching kids these days" is one of the oldest education clichés in the book. This is just the latest in history's long line of teachers corrupting the youth. Hopefully nobody has to drink hemlock this time.

[Ms. Toad]

15. I think you're the first person I've run into who actually recognizes both what New Math was

and why it failed.

[madfloridian]

31. "This is just the latest in history's long line of teachers corrupting the youth" Really?

You really feel teachers corrupt the youth?

Honestly?

I think that sets a new low even for here.

[Lizzie Poppet]

54. Have a technician look at your sarcasm meter.

I think it may be broken...

[mathematic]

56. No, YOUR post has that theme

And I agree, it is pretty low.

It was the charge leveled at Socrates because his teaching methods were new and misunderstood. Which is why I said it was one of the oldest clichés in the book. I meant that literally. Socrates was not corrupting the youth and neither is the common core. And 20 years from now when education is reformed again, it won't be corrupting the youth.

I guess the classics are just like algebra. Who needs that stuff anyway?

[msanthrope]

115. Seriously???? Maybe this will help.....

[roody]

37. Do you believe that teachers have any

say over the corporate curriculum?

[Chathamization]

70. A number line can be much more intuitive than simply stating 427-316 = 111

Especially when one starts borrowing. I've ran into students who knew what they were supposed to do, but had no idea what it meant. They memorized that they were supposed to subtract one from here and add 10 there, or that 3x5 was 15, but had no idea conceptually what was happening. And if subtraction by using a number line is confusing to people, that's probably a good sign that _more_ work needs to be done exploring the underlying concepts.

[Gormy Cuss]

87. The number line is confusing to me but I've never had a teacher explain how to use it.

OTOW, I understand the concept of borrowing because some teacher taught that lesson along with times tables.
If the subtraction-by-number-line method works for more kids than the borrowing method, that's good. However, it's hard for parents to help their children learn if the methods used are foreign to them. I remember that my parents just gave up on helping us with math homework because the approach was so different from how they were taught.

Snarky reply by the parent in the OP aside, there may be a real issue here, namely placing all the burden for math education on the teachers without any support from the parents.

[pnwmom]

19. Hah! Don't blame the old new math. I took that as a kid and it was nothing like this.

I remember learning the associative property, the commutative property, and other concepts that were useful for algebra a few years later. We never had to write paragraphs of explanation of everything.

[Egnever]

20. What does common core have to do with this assignment?

[jberryhill]

51. Nothing

[Enthusiast]

23. Why do those people believe the math and Common Core are liberal?

I don't get it.

[baldguy]

24. Becaue the Koch Bros have told them so.

Therefore Common Core must be stopped.

[barbtries]

25. most of the comments i read

blamed common core on liberals and progressives. i'm out of the loop; is this stuff a liberal, progressive innovation?

[madfloridian]

30. It's Arne Duncan's policy.

.

[TBF]

32. And with that sentence you've said it all.

Between "no child left behind" from the moron of the last administration and "race to the top" with Duncan at the helm we are doing our children a great disservice. We need to drop all the cutesy slogans and get back to actual teaching. In the past decade Texas alone (I use this example because I live here now) has spent more than a billion dollars on standardized testing that no one really wants - from the school superintendents to the parents to the teachers and certainly the students. Do you know who wants it? That's right - Pearson LLC. Big money-maker ... break the unions and teach to the test. Personally I'd rather use that billion dollars to hire the best candidates out of the education colleges nationwide and let them teach.

[deutsey]

35. I've been struggling to understand this as well

I know firsthand that my kids (and a few of their teachers) are very frustrated by Common Core. Among the many problems I'm aware of (at least how it's been implemented where we are are) is that the kids are supposed to figure out on their own how to do algebra, for instance. The goal behind this approach, apparently, is to teach kids how to figure out things independently.

I have no problem with that, but teach them the basics they need first. As someone said upthread about the failure of New Math: this approach is like expecting someone to do a gymnastics routine before they know how to crawl.

Here are a couple articles I've found helpful:

There is a battle royal being waged across the nation about a set of national academic standards called the Common Core.

On one side, Secretary of Education Arne Duncan has warned that the future of the nation depends on these standards. Billionaire philanthropist Bill Gates has spent hundreds of millions of dollars to pay for writing them, evaluating them and promoting them. He even handed out millions more to education organizations (including the teachers’ unions) to advocate for them.

On the other side are grassroots groups of parents, teachers and principals who say the standards were written in stealth, imposed by the lure of federal billions and implemented too rapidly. All testing must be done online, so the standards are a bonanza for the testing industry, the hardware industry and the software industry.

But the mass media mostly ignored the controversy until a comedian named Louis C.K. tweeted that his daughter used to love math, and now she hates it. Not only does Louis have two daughters in a New York public school, he has 3.3 million followers on Twitter. Suddenly the world woke up, and Louis’ tweets were reported in Salon, Politico, and dozens of daily papers and websites.

More: http://billmoyers.com/2014/05/06/louis-c-k-takes-aim-at-common-core/

A follow-up article on Salon:

http://www.salon.com/2014/05/08/louis_c_k_is_right_about_common_core_and_opposition_does_not_make_him_a_tea_partyer/

[madfloridian]

40. That last about Louis C K is quite true. Both left and right opposed.

Many educators refer to the Race to the Top and the Common Core as the failed NCLB on steroids.

Unfortunately the RW tag has been used to try to discredit those of us who are on the Left and opposed.

The new high-stakes testing, by whatever name it is called....is geared more to failure than to success.

And yes, Common Core is Bill Gates special baby.

[MisterP]

90. letting Dems pass hardcore GOP/corpo policies lets them be blamed on "libs" (which are

made synonymous with Dems)

if we want the 'baggers to stop tacking bad policies onto the Dems the Dems have to stop passing those bad policies

[barbtries]

112. thanks for the response.

i'll check out the links, and continue feeling grateful that my youngest is already in college.

[nadinbrzezinski]

78. As much as she loves to blame Arne Duncan

Early reforms and emphasis on testing started under the Bush administration. The Obama administration took an already in place policy to the next level. Part of that was correcting early mistakes, as perceived by the general public.

But as usual, it is not as simple as...blaming Arne Duncan. It was a correction for the horror show that was no child kept behind. The concept of common core is not a bad one. But many in the US have collective cows over it and go all the way back to Emerson who wanted a national system as early as the 1820s.

[madfloridian]

81. You are right. Arne Duncan is implementing Bush's policies.

Bush couldn't do it because Democrats fought them...now they are pushing them through themselves.

How very odd.

[nadinbrzezinski]

82. Perhaps I don't remember correctly

But wasn't Teddy Kennedy part of the victory lap when no child was passed? It's news to me that he was a republican.

There are problems with the educational system some of it money, but some of it is how we teach.

[madfloridian]

85. I just agreed with you that Democrats are implementing Bush policies.

Yes, Ted Kennedy was a great Democrat, but he opened the door to many either foreseen or unforeseen abuses.

Actually Democrats are implementing New Gingrich policies. I listed them in another post somewhere.

[nadinbrzezinski]

89. Has it occurred to you that this is not a party thing

but a policy thing? They are looking at this from the top layer, and comparing with outcomes in places like oh Sweden and Japan. Both are far better at educating their children in basic concepts.

One does use a type of common core without an emphasis on testing, In fact, they use very little testing all the way to a PhD. The other is intense in the testing, Hell, we don't even do it enough when you compare us to Japan. Given the American penchant (it's a culture thing) for actual data, testing was an expected outcome at a policy level. And I agree with you, it is not necessarily a good thing.

Here is my problem, and this is not you, this is activists of many stripes. All you do is tell us what is wrong. I have yet to read a real policy solution from you. And stepping away from common core has as much of a chance as stopping windmills in the back country by the way. As a policy (why republicans feared ACA implementation) it has a life of it's own.

I am about to start drafting the outline to a complex article on energy policy locally, and hardening for wild fires. We got many hysterical the sky is falling e-mails from sources. First off, the sky is NOT falling, second the one project they were all screaming about is about 30, and yes, they are increasing carry capacity on one of the lines, they are also putting an energy plant in place. None of the activists will answer my questions since I dared read the whole exciting collection of policy documents from the utility in their applications to the CPUC. Trust me, it makes reading academic writing look exciting in comparison (And later I have to do it all over again, IN ANOTHER LANGUAGE... shoot me, now)

Is my utility a saint in this? Nope. But they are not necessarily monsters either.

So my advise, and I did notice you did not touch my post explaining some of this to you, the time to scream we have a problem with testing is way over. Start giving actual solutions that have a chance of actually being implemented. This is the difference between you and Ravitch She is a critic, and she was an insider by the way, but she has solution proposals. Now if she takes the next step (the hard one actually) and gets an alliance in Congress, and I give not a hoot if they are republicans and democrats, to pass the kind of reforms she has proposed... that is the next step.

But when you look at outcomes in the US as compared to advanced OECD economies, yes, we need changes. I know you don't want to hear that, but we do. I will happily report on those proposals, and outcomes, especially if... as it happened after Sputnik, we succeed. That was also a series of educational reforms, driven by fear during the cold war.

[msanthrope]

117. A trip down memory lane, Nadin....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9206376

[muriel_volestrangler]

27. Never having seen a 'number line' before, I can see the idea behind it ...

... but exactly how wrong was 'Jack'?

It seems to me that if you're going to learn subtraction with a number line, you should, as you do in 'normal' maths, start by subtracting units, not the most significant digit. That way, you'll be able to progress smoothly to doing normal subtraction. The number line is, in effect, allowing you to do subtraction (or addition) before you've memorised "7-5=2", "7-8=9 borrowing 1" etc. Given that Jack's main problem was that he forgot to deal with the tens, it seems like it would have been a good idea to write down the number he was subtracting, and cross off digits as he deals with them. Or at least write the '3', '1' and '6' by his stages (in the order he has decided to do them in).

The problem here is that the parent, to help in this, has to know exactly how the use of the number line was taught. Did they teach the children to write down the number they are subtracting, so that they don't get lost? Did Jack come up with the idea of doing the hundreds first, or did someone teach him that? You can't write a critique of Jack's work without knowing everything he was taught. Are they asking for the error Jack made, or the problems with a way he has been taught?

[madfloridian]

28. This was apparently practice for the test.

See how confusing it could be to a student who can't ask a question about it during testing?

[muriel_volestrangler]

38. So I looked for some resources on how to use a number line for subtraction

and, according to a British web site, Jack was hopelessly wrong in pretty much everything he did. The British site teaches that for 3 figure numbers (assuming the answer will be positive) you put the lower number of the question at the left of the line, the higher at the right, count up in ones till the units are zero (or match the units of the larger number), count up in tens until the tens are zero or match the tens of the larger number, count up in hundreds until they match, if necessary count up in tens until they match the larger number, if necessary count up in units till they match the larger number, add together the units used, add together the tens used, and you've got your answer.

Wow.

But then, another British site says children should be comfortable with both counting down by the number you're subtracting, and counting up from that number towards the 'original' number, and you use whatever you think will involve least counting. And then it says you can do it more like a traditional subtraction if you want, but only if there's no carrying involved - because it teaches them to sort out tens before units. Aaaarrrgh! I hate to think how that teacher will get them to advance from that to, say, 213-87.

[Warren Stupidity]

100. Part of the point is that it doesn't matter which end you start from.

It is just the difference between two points on a line.

[MineralMan]

36. Teaching conceptual math is not a bad thing.

Teaching number line subtraction is fine, as long as more efficient methods are also being taught.

I entered the school system in 1950. Our mathematics education was done in a very traditional way. I was lucky, in that I learned that stuff very quickly. Others did not, for whatever reason. Because of that, they suffered greatly throughout elementary and secondary school, never really grasping mathematics at all.

Now, this particular exercise is a number line exercise. I don't know what other methods of subtraction this school is teaching, but working with number lines is a useful way to look at mathematics. So are set theory and a number of other conceptual ways of looking at numbers.

I remember, in my junior year in High School, in 1962, a very good math teacher in my trigonometry class zoomed his college prep students through a range of approaches to mathematics before he moved on to the subject at hand. That was my first exposure to different ways of thinking about numbers, and woke me up. It was the right time for it. The class was one that was made up of kids who had mastered the traditional stuff, and who really needed new ways of looking at math to move forward. They needed conceptual tools to properly understand where this teacher's class was going. It all went fine, but that was a class of kids with solid skills.

It appears that the strategy in use in the example is to present alternative methods of understanding mathematics at an early age. Is that a good idea? I do not know. Different kids need different approaches, though. That, I do know.

[Fumesucker]

43. The most important thing a strugging student can have is one on one personal instruction

Instruction tailored to their style of learning.

You are exactly correct that different kids need different approaches, sometimes multiple approaches are needed for the same subject to the same kid even.

It's that ability to diverge from the single approach that makes one on one instruction so flexible and valuable.

[MineralMan]

46. Absolutely.

I gave the daughter of a good friend of mine clarinet lessons, starting at age 10 when the school band experience began at her elementary school. In the process, she and I became friends, and she made much more rapid progress in playing the clarinet than her peers who were just getting the typical school instruction.

I often asked her how she was doing in her other classes. One day, she complained about learning fractions. She was having difficulty, as many kids do, with understanding how to work with them and how to think about them. So, I said, "Do you have a ruler?" She said yes, and I asked her to get it.

We skipped the clarinet lesson, and I used the ruler as a number line, since it had the fractional measurements all neatly place on it already. We also had a pad of paper. An hour later, she understood the basics of adding and subtracting fractions, common denominators, and more in her head. Now, I don't know how her teacher was teaching those concepts, but sitting there with her and looking at those fractional divisions and creating her own on a sheet of paper, we got the job done. She never needed any further help with fractions, once she understood clearly what they represented and how the numbers were used.

ETA: We also used the centimeter side of the ruler to learn about decimal fractions. Her comment: "Whoa. That's a lot easier. How come we make it so complicated?" I had no good answer for her question, since she wasn't really ready for a powers of 2 discussion, and told her that it was all based on history and that it was unfortunate that kids in the US had to learn a non-decimal fraction system. But, she got it that she'd still have to learn it.

One on one. Sadly, there are too many kids in each class and such instruction isn't really feasible. Parents often help, if they understand the concepts themselves. But, schools have a very tough job, since every kid learns differently. I do not have a solution for that. I could teach one child to understand fractions, but am not sure how to make sure a class of 30 can all learn fractions.

[madfloridian]

69. Yes, different approaches are needed.

Yet here we are....every student no matter their capabilities, no matter if they are disabled severely in learning or physically....MUST take the test now.

We used to be able to provide accommodations for such students, but now it appears it can't be done. I hope that will change, or perhaps is beginning to change.

This is Arne's world, and educators just have to learn to live in it. They are not included with the big boy billionaires in determining policy.

[MineralMan]

75. Well, based on the information in the OP,

I cannot tell how that school is actually teaching math. I can only see one example of some question, and that appears to be a curriculum-driven question, and nothing more than that. I can't draw any conclusions other than that the school apparently uses a number-line to teach subtraction. That's it.

Tests. We've always had tests. We had standardized tests in California in the 1950s, and we have them still today. I believe it is wrong to base all of our judgments of teachers, curriculum and other education issues on those tests, but tests we will always have.

Clearly, the job of education isn't being done all that well. Different people blame that on different things.

In 1955, Rudolph Flesch published "Why Johnny Can't Read." We're still asking that question and many others, and we still have no viable solutions for Johnny's poor reading and math skills. That book came out when I was in the 4th grade. I could read. Many of my fellow students could read. However, lots and lots of kids couldn't read well in my classes, and continued to fail to master reading and math right through high school.

Today, I know kids in all age groups. Some are skilled readers and math students. Others are not. I can't see that anything has materially changed from my own school days. We had classes of 30 students when I was in elementary and secondary school and we still have classes with 30 students. Some succeed and some do not, and for a broad variety of reasons.

Curricula have changed. Approaches have changed. Testing has changed. And yet, we still have the same old problem of students who go through our schools and don't gain the skills they need. I don't have any solutions, and I doubt that anyone has any solutions that can be applied to our schools and the classroom environment.

I believe that outcomes will always be different for different students and that we err if we expect equal outcomes or if we judge our schools based solely on outcomes measured by standardized tests. But, we've been using standardized tests to measure the success of school systems since I was a schoolboy, and even earlier.

I believed and believe that the school system puts the stuff out there and that a certain percentage of students take those basics and then learn more on their own than in the classroom. Certainly that's what I did. Another percentage of students simply are unable to grasp the concepts and skills, regardless of the presentation. In between, there is a group of young students who have a range of potential capabilities to learn to some acceptable level. It is that group that is getting short shrift from our current system, and that's truly unfortunate.

For the truly bright students, learning will happen, whatever is done. For the truly incapable students, it won't to the degree we think everyone should achieve. For the middle group, the outcomes will depend almost entirely on how well the individual school system employs its curriculum, how well teachers teach, and how much the parents of those students participate.

In the school system I grew up in, the focus was on the middle group. The bright kids got the basics and were able to use their own wits to learn more, and eventually joined the College Prep track and did fine. The kids who didn't really have the fundamental basis on which to build an education ended up in shop classes, etc. The middle? That's where the energy of that school system was focused. Since it was a small school system, serving a town of just 5000, I watched the same 100 or so kids in my class through the entire process. Almost all graduated from high school. Most could read reasonably well and could do basic arithmetic reasonably well. 10% or so excelled in everything. 10% excelled at nothing. The school did a reasonably good job with the other 80%.

Education appears to be floundering today. But, then, in 1955, we were reading "Why Johnny Can't Read." We still seem to be doing that. Perhaps that is a telling thing that we should be paying attention to.

[Fumesucker]

122. I took shop in HS and learned a lot from it

I'd say in my life the shop classes I took have done me more long term good than just about anything else in HS, working with real, concrete things teaches you something that all the theory in the world won't. As you said, the bright kids are going to pick up the book learning, getting familiar with tools and craftsmanship is a little different and definitely not entirely safe for the autodidactic approach.

Taking a chunk of wood and step by step creating a piece of furniture yourself like I did in HS shop class is an empowering experience even if you never touch a table saw or a jointer again.

[chrisa]

39. Is this real? This makes no sense.

When I was in school and at this age a little less than 20 years ago, we were taught subtraction as it is - 'you have five apples and you take away 3, how many does that give you?' to the trick where you decrement by 1 for the next place of the number you are subtracting from.

I get that the purpose is to break the numbers down into simpler elements, but this is a mess.

[Jefferson23]

42. Some of the responses to this thread seem to be seeking confirmation that one, the CC is based

on a progressive ideology or not because if it is that is the reason the right is against it. If it were liberal minded,
( it is not btw ) it would mean it possessed a high level of efficacy? Too many seem to be willing to presume because
it was initiated by Duncan it is liberal/progressive based and therefore should be embraced.

There very well may be those on the right who will use CC as a means to gain a political advantage but the most
important element is whether the CC is appropriate, and it is failing to make its case among parents who
are on the right and the left.

6 Reasons Why the Common Core is NOT Progressive Ideology

A growing criticism of the Common Core State Standards and the Next Generation Science Standards is that its a way for progressives to inject their philosophies and ideology onto children and youth in American schools.

One reader of this blog made this comment about my post in which I discuss why Bill Gates defends the common core.

in full: http://www.artofteachingscience.org/6-reason-why-the-common-core-is-not-progressive-ideology/

[madfloridian]

44. Good observation. Is it wrong or right per se, not whether left or right.

One test that decides the future of teachers and students, a test made by a company that doesn't have to reveal anything....is wrong.

[Jefferson23]

45. The public can and has been misled about CC but that seems to be falling apart..thankfully.

snip* Injustice

The authoritarian standards and high-stakes testing movement conjure up for me the use of power and privilege to create injustices for not only schools and teachers, but for students and their parents. Using invalid test scores, the government has cast a net around schools that have high poverty ratesresulting in many of them being labeled as failures with teachers and administrators fired, and replaced by teachers, many of whom are un-certified, and lack the teaching experience needed for these schools.

And all of this is done with data that is not only invalid, but is not reliable.

[frazzled]

48. Bzzzz: nothing to do with Common Core; myth dispelled in Atlantic

Common Core does not write curriculum or problem sets.

The Common Core is a set of “standards,” lists of competencies or skills that kids will need to know by the end of a given school year. Standards require what skills will be taught, while curriculum dictates other details such as how a given skill is conveyed to a second grader. For example, the Standards require second graders to know that “100 can be thought of as a bundle of ten tens—called a ‘hundred,’” but curriculum dictates the textbook, or teaching methodology, or philosophy used to teach that skill. The confusing math that has been coming home in our children’s backpacks is a result of Everyday Math, a curriculum based on critical thinking skills, (so-called “fuzzy math”) developed at the University of Chicago.

...

Education has always been locally controlled, and it is up to individual states, districts, or schools to teach the standards via a curriculum of their choosing, such as Everyday Math or Singapore Math, and this is where the blame for the confusing math methodology lies

This distinction may seem like a nitpicky matter of semantics, but it is not. In order to have an honest and productive debate about the efficacy of the Common Core State Standards, we must separate fact from fiction, and the idea that a particular confusing math curriculum is part and parcel of the Common Core is fiction. Bill Schmidt, Director of the Center for the Study of Curriculum at Michigan State University, agrees. “The trouble is that many claim to represent the Common Core when they don’t, and that confuses parents.”.

...

The fiction that fuzzy math is a function of the Common Core State Standards is being perpetuated by the media, anti-Common Core activists, and the misinformed. Recently, Time, Huffington Post, and The Hechinger Report all ran pieces about a father’s viral Facebook post blaming the Common Core for his son’s unnecessarily confusing math homework. With headlines like, “Why is This Common Core Math Problem So Hard?”, these outlets hastened the spread of the rumor that Common Core is to blame for fuzzy math

http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/04/confusing-math-homework-don-t-blame-the-common-core/360064/

[madfloridian]

50. Actually under Arne education is not locally controlled.

I just posted about Washington. Arne told districts to declare every school failing because they did not do things his way. Now he appears ready to do the same to Indiana.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024939550

[frazzled]

59. Your response has nothing to do with the issue

Please, try to concentrate.

[Jefferson23]

62. Her response does have a great deal to do with the issue, and your OP is far less than accurate:

snip* It's both. On the one hand, that particular math problem came from a series that predates the Common Core. So you can't very well blame the Common Core. There are all kinds of just really stupid math problems out there in books. Just really horrible things that we confuse kids with in terms of mathematics. There are just bad text books, and there are bad examples, and there are bad problems that are presented. This happens to be a bad one. But it predates the Common Core.

So, a lot of the Common Core defenders said, "You can't blame the Common Core for this." Well, that's half right. The half where I think they’re wrong is in school districts, and in schools, and in classrooms, people hear a certain message from Common Core. And one of the messages is: kids need to be doing this kind of deeper learning, deeper thinking, higher-order thinking in mathematics.

We've gone through this in the past. We've gone through the exact same thing. In a way what it does is, it gives local educators license to adopt a lot of this garbage, this really bad curriculum. And they do it under the shield of the Common core. And that particular problem is just a terrible math problem and should not be given to kids. I would never have taught any of my elementary school kids that way. It's a terrible problem. And there are worse problems I've seen in the first grade, quote unquote, "Common Core math."

But again, those problems have been around a very long time. They predate Common Core. But you have educators who are bringing them in because there are certain phrases you can use like "mathematical reasoning," for example. This is like a dog whistle to a certain way of approaching mathematics that has never worked in the past. It has been tried over and over again. [In] the 1960s it was tried. It was tried in the 1990s. It failed both times. And we are seeing a resurrection of some of these bad materials and these bad practices again. And it's partially the Common Core's fault.

in full: http://www.brookings.edu/blogs/brookings-now/posts/2014/05/brookings-scholar-explains-infamous-common-core-math-problem

[madfloridian]

65. See my other response to you.

Don't be rude, have a real discussion.

[frazzled]

74. I believe

You're the one who didn't want to have a discussion. I posted an article from the Atlantic to which you did not respond in the least, using your stock "Arne Duncan" diatribe instead.

I resent being treated so rudely. You don't determine the terms of discussion, and you most certainly don't have the edge in discussing issues of education.

[madfloridian]

63. Article you posted said education has always been locally controlled.

But under Arne it is not any longer.

[frazzled]

76. It doesn't say that at all

It says curriculum choices such as textbooks and assignments are locally controlled. Try reading, if you want to discuss issues of education.

One more time: Common Core suggests standards, which states can adopt or not; Common Core does not prescribe textbooks, assignments, teaching plans, or any other way of teaching or implementing these learning goals.

[muriel_volestrangler]

77. In the quote you posted: "Education has always been locally controlled"

so, yes, it does say that.

[frazzled]

86. Read the second half of the sentence

No wonder our childrenz is failing.

[muriel_volestrangler]

88. Are you aware of what the conjunction 'and' means?

It doesn't mean 'except', for instance. Your children may be failing if they're take logic or English lessons from you personally, perhaps.

[madfloridian]

79. I don't know where you are getting all that stuff I did not say.

You are missing the entire point. That is your choice. When someone says to me "try reading"...I get the message. Have a nice day.

[DetlefK]

53. Why is the second step 127 minus 60 ???

[madfloridian]

58. Good question.

When I was giving the FCAT I saw items on the 4th grade test that I probably would have gotten wrong....they were very confusing. A test should test real knowledge and not cause mental gymnastics trying to figure out what they want.

[mike_c]

93. where do you see that?

I see -3 x 10² + -6 x 10^0.1

on edit-- oh, I just realized you're probably reading what I believe are erroneous numbers added by the parent, and I'm providing what I believe is the intended, correct answer.

[winter is coming]

96. +1. This approach is all about emphasizing place value.

I saw this and other "do it the long way instead of the way you parents learned it as kids" approaches when my daughter was in elementary school for a year or two. After teaching this method, the kids were later allowed to use whichever method they preferred. My daughter immediately decided to do things the short way.

[DetlefK]

118. Then, where is the mistake in the exercise?

I guess, you meant 427 - 3*10^2 - 6*10^0

"Jack" forgot to substract the 1*10^1. Is that the "mistake" the students are supposed to find?

[mike_c]

123. ah-- it should have been...

427 - (3 x 10²) - (1 x 10¹) - (6 x 10^0.1), so the mistake was missing the middle term (and I miscounted the number of steps on the number line the first time I looked at it, because I too am a product of the addition tables method of teaching subtraction, LOL). I think the numbers written under the number line on the left were added by the parent who was subtracting in steps of -10 rather than -1, but the mistake the question refers to is missing the middle term above. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[hobbit709]

57. Hey mad, here's an interesting article in the weekly rag dealing with the testing at a local school.

http://www.austinchronicle.com/news/2014-05-09/a-declaration-of-independence/

[greatlaurel]

60. Common Core is being used by the big corporations to take billions of dollars of local tax dollars

That is the problem with Common Core. CC was written by corporate shills, not actual educators. The standards are now being used to force local schools to purchase tests(Pearson) and computer programs(Microsoft) that were written to profit the corporations, not educate children. This is not a left or right issue, it is a corporate profit versus educating children issue. It is something the left and the right should work together to defeat.

[CrispyQ]

61. My first programming professor used to say, "Simplify, simplify, simplify."

Another one used to say, "Unnecessary complexity is your enemy."

Are they really teaching this number line crap as a way to do arithmetic?

on edit: I don't recall using a number line to learn arithmetic.

[madfloridian]

67. Yes, we often taught the number line even in early grades. But this one is confusing...

unnecessarily so. My kids usually loved doing number line stuff.

This just complicates a simple subtraction problem.

[Jefferson23]

71. Some basic understanding of the foundations of CC that should be seen as problematic

for all parents regardless of political party affiliations and in fact that is what we're seeing,
a push back and for good reason:

snip* President Obama and Secretary Duncan often say that the Common Core standards were developed by the states and voluntarily adopted by them. This is not true.

They were developed by an organization called Achieve and the National Governors Association, both of which were generously funded by the Gates Foundation. There was minimal public engagement in the development of the Common Core. Their creation was neither grassroots nor did it emanate from the states.

In fact, it was well understood by states that they would not be eligible for Race to the Top funding ($4.35 billion) unless they adopted the Common Core standards. Federal law prohibits the U.S. Department of Education from prescribing any curriculum, but in this case the Department figured out a clever way to evade the letter of the law. Forty-six states and the District of Columbia signed on, not because the Common Core standards were better than their own, but because they wanted a share of the federal cash. In some cases, the Common Core standards really were better than the state standards, but in Massachusetts, for example, the state standards were superior and well tested but were ditched anyway and replaced with the Common Core. The former Texas State Commissioner of Education, Robert Scott, has stated for the record that he was urged to adopt the Common Core standards before they were written.

http://dianeravitch.net/2013/02/26/why-i-cannot-support-the-common-core-standards/

[madfloridian]

80. Wow! "It shows a lack of qualification to act as an educator" Wow. I fooled everyone for 33 years.

Good for me.

[greatlaurel]

83. You are really hitting a deep nerve when the attacks on you get so nasty.

I appreciate all you do to keep DU informed on education issues. Most people who do not have teachers in their families are unaware of the corporate theft of local education tax dollars using the Common Core and mandatory testing. Those tax dollars should be spent on teachers, nurses and custodians, not lining the pockets of Bill Gates and Pearson on testing materials and computer software that are needed to comply with the testing requirements. NCLB and Race to the Top have gutted public schools with the help of the GOP and some really bad Democratic governors (Cuomo and Malloy come to mind).

My local middle school has gone from 22 kids in a class to 30 kids in a class, thanks to the slashing of state education funds by our governor, John Kasich. The rooms are designed to hold 22 to 24 kids max. Most of the teachers I know are having health issues due to the stress they are under. The children are also severely stressed and many are acting out trying to deal with the stress in their own ways.

That post attacking you looked like something from a paid corporate troll attempting to intimidate anyone who dares to stand up to Pearson and Bill Gates. I have seen a lot of posts on education blogs attacking teachers using a very similar format. The corporations have taken on the wrong group this time. The teachers are fighting for their students and I know teachers will not give up, because they have devoted their lives to children.

Keep up the good work, Madfloridian!

[madfloridian]

84. ....

Your response means a lot to me, it really does. There are some really personal ugly things said in this thread. Thanks for the kind words.

FL and Ohio are fighting some real battles right now, as are other states. I guess it will get ugly.

[greatlaurel]

94. You are a true fighter for truth and justice, as are most teachers.

Anyone who does not understand that is a fool, corporate tool or both. FL and OH really are at the forefront of the fight to save our future. This November is vital in changing the tide for both our states.

Teachers are revolutionaries, whether they know it or not, because they teach children to think. That is where the battle lines are. It truly is a fight for the minds of the future. NCLB and RTT are institutionalized child abuse that damages children's abilities to do critical thinking. Corporations and the right wing hate critical thinking. Teachers are on the front lines and most fight against this every day while trying to educate our children.

The teacher evaluation system pushed by the Gates Foundation and the Obama administration is being used as a sledge hammer to drive out our most effective teachers as they are the ones best at developing critical thinking skills.

This thread has been very enlightening to me, as it demonstrates how clearly the corporations are afraid of teachers and parents joining forces. They love to attack teachers and parents using many of the old canards that have been effective in the past in dividing and conquering people. It also shows how desperate they are getting when they are attacking one person on a progressive blog so vigorously. Keep on posting! Every one of your posts is another brick torn from the corporate wall of ignorance and manipulation!

[nadinbrzezinski]

91. That one came this close for me to hit the alert button

but since I gave up on the jury system here a long time ago... but it was a nasty personal attack. I also gave up on confronting them.

Realize some of these are NOT attacks, but critiques. Some of us agree with MF that testing is excessive, but it is time to get solutions that at a policy level will make meaningful changes on something that has taken a life of it's own.

I don't expect that to happen.

So... it is what it is. Now back to my drafting a headache of an article.

[Jefferson23]

97. +1. My alert and I was pleased to see a unanimous hide. n/t

[mike_c]

92. an alternative perspective....

I think many folks are missing the point here. Yes, memorizing addition tables and performing simple subtraction yields an answer more simply, but finding the correct answer is only one possible objective. Understanding the computational process that gives context to subtraction is another, and this exercise seems better designed to do the latter, i.e. "use simple units that are multiples of the number system base to converge upon a general result." The process is universal, and can be applied whether one knows addition tables or not.

If the goal is simply to teach kids how to subtract quickly, then the rote method is probably better, IMO-- at least, it worked for me back in the ancient days of my public school education, LOL. But if the objective is to foster understanding of WHY the rote method works, this approach seems better. The powers of ten approach will work whether one knows the tables or not, at least in base 10 arithmetic (and it works in other bases too, with modification to reflect the base change).

[greatlaurel]

95. Hi Mike

The problem with this test question is not the use of the number line necessarily, but the structure of the curriculum, the high stakes testing and the way schools are being administered. The situation is far more dire than you may realize. If you are in a GOP run state, the common core curriculum is being forced into the schools by state mandated testing requirements. The schools must buy and administer the state mandated tests which are "aligned" with the common core. Therefore, in order to have the kids have a shot at passing the mandatory testing, the schools must purchase the curriculum that teaches to the state mandated tests which are aligned with the common core. If the kids are not extremely familiar with the language used in the test questions they get really confused very quickly. At the same time the state funding for schools are being slashed while the states like Ohio are implementing ALEC written requirements like the Third Grade Reading Guarantee.

This question illustrates the language used in the tests with which the kids must be familiar in order to understand the test questions. Most teachers I know used to be able to use a wide variety of methods to teach kids different subjects. Teachers spend an unbelievable amount of their paychecks buying books and classroom tools so they can have tools available to use for every kid that comes to their classroom. Teachers use number lines, lattice methods and dozens of other teaching methods to get kids to comprehend. However, using this type of question on a high stakes test is unfair to the child and to the teacher who will be rated on whether the child can answer the question correctly or not. No one understands like teachers that each kid has a different learning style, as well as, a different age when they "get" certain concepts, but the tests were not designed with that in mind at all. Now the schools are mostly drilling on the state mandated tests using the materials purchased by the corporations who dreamed this up in the first place at the expense of teaching anything else.


One of the other big problems with common core and the aligned curriculum and tests are that the concepts have been pushed down to lower and lower grades when it is inappropriate for the developmental age of the child. This damages children's brains and diminishes their ability to become critical thinkers later on. This concept may work for older children, but will confuse a younger child whose brain is not ready for the concept.

Teachers are not opposed to standards. There have always been state standards, however, the situation now is not about standards, but the damage to children by implementing this system that was not written by educators who understand how children learn. This system being used was written by corporations to benefit themselves by selling billions of dollars of software, tests, curricula and computers to local school districts.

[nadinbrzezinski]

99. Here is a news flash

Last edited Mon May 12, 2014, 07:20 PM - Edit history (1)

Common Core is being forced down the throats of every school district in BLUE California. I suppose when I went to bed it was a blue state and when I woke up this morning I did so in alternate Red California.

As to the rest of it. I am up to here with the negative comments, We get it, you guys hate it. How about some solutions?

I know, I am mean that way.

[madfloridian]

102. That's the problem. No one is asking teachers for solutions.

[nadinbrzezinski]

104. And....

that does not stop my local activists from filling my computer with public comments.

And I just did, in case you missed it.

I am done with reading the problems. I guess I will read Ravitch. (throws hands and gives up). She does have solutions. None is keeping her silent. NONE.

[madfloridian]

106. Ravitch has the big guns after her.

Arne Duncan, President Barack Obama’s normally mild- mannered education secretary, has finally had enough. “Diane Ravitch is in denial and she is insulting all of the hardworking teachers, principals and students all across the country who are proving her wrong every day,” he said when I asked about Ravitch this week. -- Jonathan Alter

http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2011-06-03/don-t-believe-critics-education-reform-works-jonathan-alter

That's from the horses' ass..oops horses mouth.

She's a brave lady.

[nadinbrzezinski]

107. Again... and...

Don't take this the wrong way, but when are you running for board of education? You are not in my state, so I think ethically I can kick a few bucks your way. My chances of covering you are next to nill.

[madfloridian]

108. If I could I would.

[nadinbrzezinski]

109. When you do, let me know

I mean that, I will kick money your way.

[msanthrope]

116. No, Diane Ravitch does not have the big guns after her. She's a former Bush employee who

makes a decent buck decrying an educational policy she helped implement.

Good for her.

My kid was taught a few different methods for basic arithmetic. So she does lattice method for multiplication, but 'traditional' tent method for long division. The point of trying ALL the methods was to see which one worked for her. It took me about 10 minutes on Google to catch myself up with what she was learning.

I still remember this Diane Ravitch thread with fondness....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9206376

[joshcryer]

120. You're a good mom.

I think most of the blowback is due to parents not wanting to learn new methods that children are more likely to appreciate and understand, as opposed to the new methods being crap. It's all about trying to get children to understand the concepts, the ones that work in the real world, as opposed to one single algorithm that works ... on paper.

[mike_c]

113. oh I completely agree with your broader comment about high stakes testing, etc....

I hate grades, testing, etc and do my best to avoid them in my own courses to the extent possible, although that's often a source of student anxiety too, if only because grades and tests are the feedback they've been trained to expect. But teaching to tests is awful, no argument there. I'm somewhat out of step with most of my colleagues in that I think content assessment is the least important indicator of educational success, and of course content assessment-- the lowest order on Bloom's taxonomy-- is the primary focus of that "high stakes testing," and is distressingly prevalent even in higher ed.

I'm not certain I agree with the notion that pushing challenging content down to earlier grade levels is damaging-- learning should be challenging and push one's boundaries IMO, and that's the standard I try to apply to my own classes. Challenging learning environments are sometimes uncomfortable for students, but I'm convinced nonetheless that challenge, and the potential for failing to meet that challenge, is important for personal and intellectual growth. I fear that the academic risk averse college students we too often see are the result of prior education that seeks to avoid the discomforts of intellectual challenge.

But I wholeheartedly agree with you about testing. It's worthless except for creating anxiety for all concerned.

[madfloridian]

114. Nice post.

Lot of good points. Thanks.

[Warren Stupidity]

98. a numberline is a fundamental concept in math.

Fuck this rightwing anti-intellectual glorifying idiocy bullshit.

[madfloridian]

101. I know. I taught it. I enjoyed it, my class enjoyed it. I am not RW, I am not anti-intellectual.

But that is not a good test question.

It is a sorry test question.

[Warren Stupidity]

103. The test question is fine. You have conflated it with other issues and fallen for

rightwing anti-intellectual glorifying idiocy bullshit.

[madfloridian]

105. Really? I have "fallen for rightwing anti-intellectual glorifying idiocy bullshit" Wow.

This is certainly not a good day for me here now is it?

I have been labeled some pretty bad stuff today.

Just remember there are many teachers who have fallen for the same stuff.....and they are very very angry.

Our Democrats would do well not to alienate so many.

[muriel_volestrangler]

110. And yet, for integer subtraction like this, it doesn't really help

'Jack' could have written down '427', then '327', '227', '127', without any line, and he'd still have a way of seeing that when you take off 3 '1's from '4' you get '1'. Drawing a line and arcs above that doesn't simplify that - it just takes longer. The line didn't help him to remember to count down from '2' to '1' for the tens (if that's a mistake that gets made often in real life - I have no idea. Since they've asked the child to spot that mistake, perhaps it is).

Do they use number lines because people find the concept of negative numbers easier to understand with them? Or for thinking about fractions? It seems to me that it complicates basic subtraction.

[Fumesucker]

121. Indeed it is, you and I normally agree quite a lot

That problem was very nearly gibberish, the things wrong with it got nicely deconstructed upthread.

[Taitertots]

111. Someone is suffering from engineer know-it-all syndrome

Which causes the following symptoms:

Thinks they know more about teaching than people who are actually teachers.

Complains about children's math problems being too hard, but thinks they know better.

Spends enough time writing a whiny letter to have actually taught a child about the subject.