As a white male I am blamed for all the ills of society

[Harmony Blue]

and yet I am expected to solve all the problems. Why should I have a vested interest in a society that see me as a problem as long as I breathe? Why should I care if no empathy is shown for me? I think the apex fallacy has reached a new height on DU in my honest opinion which is borderline elitist and a tad arrogant. Most whites that came to America faced discrimination or fled to avoid being persecuted. That is why we are a melting pot and why we are the United States. Reading this board you would think that is not the case.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Irish_sentiment
http://voices.yahoo.com/irish-immigrants-discriminations-prejudice-4102209.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_the_United_States#Iranian_Americans
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_the_United_States#Antisemitism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_the_United_States#European_immigrants

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/are-we-born-racist/201011/racism-against-whites-the-overlooked-phenomenon

"Yet I'd venture that the perception that all whites are bigots is one of the stereotypes that elicits the least outcry from our society. In so many of our conversations about diversity and overcoming prejudice, whites are too often seen as the source of the problem-- the ones who don't understand, the ones whose attitudes need to be changed, the blue-eyed devils with hate and ignorance in their hearts. "What works well for you when you are interested in inviting white people to talk about racism?" asks a recent blog post on this site."

[ret5hd]

1. I feel so sorry for you.

The burden must be terrible.

[Buddyblazon]

170. Growing up a white male in a poor family...

I find your post disgusting. I had no more privilege than any other poor kid. There were no grants...no scholarships available to me. Unless I got straight A's, there was zero chance of my school being paid for. Didn't matter I was poor. Took out tens of thousands of loans to get through college. Loans that leave me wondering if at 41 I'll ever be able to pay them back. There was zero aid other than loans for a financially poor white guy like me with a simple B average. Parents couldn't pay for school. I even had to work 30-40hrs a week to pay my rent while going to school full time.

And here I have people like you condescending me. As if simply because I'm a white male my life has been "easy".

Well...I think people that discriminate against people of any race, color, creed, or sexual orientation are disgusting. Why is it okay for you to pass judgement on me because you know some white guy you don't like? It's just as disgusting as discriminating against anyone for a situation they have no control over.

[Scootaloo]

198. Did you ever have to kill your own food?

I learned how to hide in a house when I was five; mom and I would hustle up into the attic an wait for the landlord to stop knocking, while dad was looking for work out of state. He taught me how to shoot, and how to fish, and how to snare; Ever eaten opossum? Ever killed it yourself? I taught my little sister how to sneak potatoes and onions out of the store so that we could have shit to eat. Never did any break and entering anyone, but shoplifting was very much a survival tactic in my family - and just 'cause I didn't doesn't mean I couldn't. All while mom and dad drank and brawled. I had piss-poor grades in school too, mostly because I never bothered showing up and when I did, I couldn't stand the "busy work" - I know the stuff, give me the test, let me leave. Paying for school was a fantasy, and scholarships? lord almighty, there are Florida land deals that were better investments than me.

And most of my friends were in the same boat - maybe not quite so hillbilly, but definitely poor. As most of my friends were other kids at Morningside elementary school, Mae Eanes middle school, and Blount High school in Mobile, AL, most of my peers were black. Know who the teachers tried to "save"? Know who the counselors sought put? Know who the vice principle cut slack for, when it came to fights in the hallway? it wasn't Jamal. It wasn't Larry. It wasn't Duane. it was me, Token White Kid. I had "potential," I had "promise", I could "do so much better". Apparently though, my friends couldn't.

Now why is that? They knew why. I knew why. So what's your hangup?

And let me tell you something; there's plenty of grants and scholarships. I know because oh, those counselors that wanted me to become their special project? They told me all about them, "if only you could bring your grades up..." What I think, is that you got into this "poor me I'm white and brown people have it made over me!" rut so long ago you didn't even bother looking into grants and scholarships, because you assumed there weren't any.

Now look at you. Complaining that you have student debt and have to work to pay rent. What, you think black people don't work to pay rent, is that it? Vietnamese kids - the other major minority in my school years - didn't end up with student debt? What on earth makes you special, you think that you only owe money because you're white or something?

You're not the only broke-ass white guy running around these boards. And you don't speak for all of us, and certainly not for me - I for one have the perspective to understand that if I'd been born a few shades darker, things would only be tougher for me.

[Buddyblazon]

204. The ol' "One Upper"...

Here's the bottom line:

There's this pressure up and down the boards the last few days that I'm supposed to feel guilty about being a white male. It seems astonishing to me that after ten years here that there is suddenly an entire group of people here that think it's okay to hate me because of who I am. When did the Democratic party I grew up start hating me after years of rah rah and support. It's never been okay to hate someone for how they were born.

I refuse to...so you "one up" to your little hearts content. I'm not going to apologize for how I was born. If you want to embrace a bunch of DUers telling you that you are lesser than other people simply because you are a white guy, I'm not going to stop you from your self loathing. And just like I don't speak for you....you sure as hell do not speak to me.

I can't believe I can be so head over heals supportive of a party since I was a child, and a large segment of that party is suddenly telling me and others like me that we're bad people and we should feel bad for how we were born.

And I am even more astonished that fellow members of that demographic would support this hatred. It's jaw dropping. The hypocrisy being shown here by fellow democrats is so disappointing it's depressing. It wouldn't be okay to do this to any other member of any other demographic. But it's okay to hate my guts because I am a white guy.

[Scootaloo]

219. Nobody here hates you for being white

if they hate you, it's because you're claiming you only have to pay bills because you're white. that you're severely misrepresenting the notion of privilege, and continue to do so with supreme ignorance no matte how often it is corrected, all in an effort to portray yourself as some downtrodden victim because you're white. More likely, they just think you're kind of dumb, because hatred is such an intimate emotion.

Here, look at this mess...

'm not going to apologize for how I was born. If you want to embrace a bunch of DUers telling you that you are lesser than other people simply because you are a white guy, I'm not going to stop you from your self loathing. And just like I don't speak for you....you sure as hell do not speak to me.

It shows, without a doubt, that you are either the most unaware person in this site, or that you are making a concerted effort to remain ignorant.

- No one expects an apology for how you were born. This is stated plenty, when other sufferers of White Male Victim Syndrome make the same claim. Go read a few of those.

- Certainly no one is claiming that you or I are 'lesser' because we're white.

- Accusing me of self-loathing, because I understand my life would have been made more difficult than it already was if i had a darker skin tone? That's not self-loathing, that's self-awareness, a trait shared by most sentient beings in the world. If a dolphin can do it, so can you, all you have to do is try.

- You must think you DO speak or me, 'cause you're telling me I'm a self-loathing white guy.

I'm not going to explain the concept of white privilege. Lots of people have already done that and it's evident you've chosen ludicrously opver-the-top forced ignorance instead. What I'm telling you is to get the fuck over yourself. You have to pay bills not because you're white, but because everyone has to pay bills. No one on DU hates you for being white, no matter how much you wish they would. You are not expected to apologize for your race, only to understand that were it different, your life would probably be harder.

The fact that that last prospect is one you firmly reject - your prior post really seems to indicate you believe black people have it made compared to you - is why white privilege is still a topic.

As for one-upping, whatever. That's how I grew up. You want to make a production of what a tragic and imperfect life you have because - oh the horror - you're a white male? You're not the only person who's had a rough time, nor the only white male. It's nothing about "one-upping" you - I've achieved that just by knowing what the fuck is going on - but rather to show you you're not talking to someone who's coasted along on money-greased skids their whole life.

[Jamastiene]

272. +1000000

[Jamastiene]

276. GASP! You had to pay rent while going to college?

They didn't let you live somewhere for free? Oh, the horror.

You say that like no nonwhite person or female EVER had to pay rent or pay for college.

[Whisp]

2. lol

[BainsBane]

3. Hold on. I've got something here

Please, proceed, governor.

[nomorenomore08]

143. + infinity

[TheBlackAdder]

250. I get the impression that he doesn't aid or care for others and wonders why others forsake him.

There seems to be a lot of bitterness in that OP.

[BainsBane]

252. Yeah, but this one is a change of pace

In that it's not directed at women.

[TheBlackAdder]

255. That reply said quite a lot in so few words. nt

[mulsh]

4. Redefining "the white man's burden"?

n/t

[Sheepshank]

5. He who can, must.

gawd.

[William769]

6. Well speaking a a white man, we seem to have caused all the ills of society.

Just saying.

[CANDO]

33. Yeah, I suppose we did cause this Boka Haram kidnapping didn't we?

Just because...

[William769]

34. Well we damn sure didn't stop it now did we?

[LanternWaste]

38. No... but we damn sure did use it to reinforce and validate our petulance

"Well we damn sure didn't stop it now did we?"

No... but I imagine a handful will damn sure use that same violence and horror to better validate and rationalize one's petulance in regards to any privileges we pretend is non-existent, regardless that the method may trivialize and minimize the violence alluded to.

[tblue37]

95. Extremist groups, including Islamist groups, in impoverished

countries with corrupt governments often develop because the wealthy, predominantly white, nations, including the US, have long engaged in policies that exploit the (often non-white) people of the poor countries; established and/or propped up corrupt, brutal governments; and exploited and destroyed their natural resources so that they could no longer subsist in their own land.

So, yeah, white hegemonist governments (which consist largely, though not entirely, of white men) have a fair amount of responsibility for the rise of such extremist groups.

[laundry_queen]

155. EXACTLY

I cannot believe someone on DU cannot put 2 and 2 together. Thank you for pointing it out for those who don't understand the correlation.

[tblue37]

215. Every now and then my teaching gene presses me into explaining

things, but as a teacher, I am all too aware that many people are simply not willing to accept information they don't want, no matter how carefully it is explained.

Truth is, BainesBain's recent post explaining that "privilege" doesn't mean that one has it easy, but that one does not have to deal with *extra* obstacles that others from different groups must constantly deal with (or as BB put it, "Privilege = s**t you don't have to deal with&quot should have been clear enough to anyone arguing in good faith. But even that perfectly clear explanation was (deliberately??) misunderstood by the usual suspects.

I have no real hope that this post of mine will move the argument one millimeter further in the direction of reason. I just couldn't let the post I was responding to go unanswered, since the poster so obviously thought s/he had struck the final blow to the argument.

[1StrongBlackMan]

265. I was going to point that out; but, ...

It wouldn't have been met well (with my screen name).

[LanternWaste]

7. I used to enjoy a bit of melodramatic self-martyrdom too.

I used to enjoy a bit of melodramatic self-martyrdom too when I was young. As an adult however, and much like yourself, I usually only rely on it out when I'm drunk, and feeling petulant and under-appreciated.

[nomorenomore08]

145. I suppose we all might feel "petulant and under-appreciated" from time to time.

But most of us know better than to throw a tantrum on a political discussion board because of it.

[Sheldon Cooper]

8. Awwww.....

[nomorenomore08]

146. +1

[BainsBane]

9. I guess you don't know the Irish weren't considered white

during the nineteenth century. There is a book called How the Irish Became White.
Each new wave of immigrants has been targeted, so Southern and East Europeans were targeted surrounding the period of mass immigration from 1885-1914. Their religions as Catholics and Jews were part of how they were targeted.

Iranians. That's tricky racially. I think the Muslim religion trumps the rest in terms of how bigotry in America works, so definitely other. All those groups were considered other and not white at the time.

Don't sleep through those your college US history survey. You miss important stuff. .

[AverageJoe90]

26. "I guess you don't know the Irish weren't considered white" TBH, I think that was actually part.....

of the very same point he was trying to make.

[Feral Child]

40. No,

and that was a damn stupid interpretation.

His screed was, "Why do I have to be the bad guy?


His post answers itself.

[cyberswede]

49. That's the opposite of the point he was trying to make.

[redqueen]

50. It's performance art, right?

It's gotta be. Cause otherwise... damn. Just damn.

[AverageJoe90]

54. Why else do you think he posted the link on Irish Americans?

It's only logical to conclude, based on that, that part of his point, was that Irish people were also considered the "other" at one point as well. So I dunno what's so hard to see about that.

[cyberswede]

56. He was trying to point out that white people have been discriminated against

...but the example of the Irish really didn't do that.

[BainsBane]

59. Dude below, I'm half Irish

Raised at the knee of an Irish grandma. I also have an academic background in history. When talking about historical racism, what they "were considered to be" is very must relevant.

[AverageJoe90]

60. And that actually has happened. The treatment of the Irish was a great example of that.

Even the Germans had some troubles from reactionaries when they started coming here. So, too, did many Jews, most of whom were indeed "white". They just weren't the so-called "right" type of white.....anglo-saxon Protestant white, that is.

I've done a fair bit of studying of American history myself, TBH.

[cyberswede]

63. They weren't discriminated against because they were white...

they were discriminated against because they were perceived NOT to be white. Not being the "right" type of white is the same as not "being white."

Therefore, that doesn't work as an example of white people being discriminated against.

[AverageJoe90]

70. "They weren't discriminated against because they were white..." That's not what I said, though.

Honestly. What. The. Fuck.

Not being the "right" type of white is the same as not "being white."

Therefore, that doesn't work as an example of white people being discriminated against.

I beg to differ on the latter. Because in the case of the Irish, their classification of being placed as other than "white" involved nothing less than stark hypocrisy on the part of the reactionaries amongst the elite of the day(and they knew it damn well, too).

[cyberswede]

76. I didn't say you said it...

The OP tried to use the example of the Irish to make his point about white people being discriminated against, which wasn't a valid example. That's all.

[AverageJoe90]

79. Well, okay then.

It kinda did seem that way to me, but only because of how it was phrased. My apology for the misunderstanding.

[nomorenomore08]

148. At most, it's white people being discriminated against *by white people*.

So any implied "Racism works both ways!" argument falls apart completely.

There's also the fact that, as badly as many European immigrants were treated, they weren't enslaved or mass-murdered the way black people were. So you could argue that they were considered at least semi-human, albeit still inferior to Anglo-Saxons. Whereas more than a few white Americans to this day still consider black people mere animals, and their violent deaths fodder for humor or celebration.

[Niceguy1]

64. many help wanted

Signs said "irish need not appy", I guess they were just joking.

[cyberswede]

65. ...because they weren't perceived as "white." nt

[BainsBane]

134. No, they were discriminated against

No one is denying that. The point is that today we perceive Irish as being white. In the nineteenth-century they were perceived as racially inferior, as other than white. The views came to American via the English who occupied Ireland for centuries. Also the fact is the Irish were the most recent immigrant group, which meant they faced discriminated from that (think of Hispanics today).

Here's what you all aren't getting. Race isn't a biological fact. It's a social construction. How a group is perceived is how they are defined racially. What is black in the US is not the same as black in Brazil or Haiti. White is white today has not always been seen as white, as the case of the Irish shows.

[Niceguy1]

201. the irish were considered

White, just socially inferior. Just as any other group, certain white people have been subjected to discrimination.

Priveledge is more than the color of the skin.

The check your privledge movment does nothing for unity, and i would bet money that it wouldnt be a tactic employed by mlk.

[boston bean]

210. You want unity, listen to those who live the experiences instead of

dismissing them and their experiences, when verbalized, as divisiveness.

[BainsBane]

212. Your version of unity is one that ignores an already existing divide

I wrote this in another thread.

The divide already exists.
As 1strongblackman explained in another thread. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4925485

What you don't want is to hear about the view on the other side of that divide.

Moreover, Democrats argue on every issue under the sun, from Snowden to Obamacare, Hillary Clinton, and everything else. Yet some members single out the voices of people of color and feminists to denounce as too "divisive."

First people argue Democrats all already on racism anyway. It's an already settled issue. Then you say you don't like to see Democrats divided. These arguments contradict each other. They do not hold up to scrutiny since there are scores of others subjects around which people agree and disagree that you don't object to.

This strikes me as a demonstration of entitlement: if it's not about white men, they don't think is important or legitimate. Every time someone tells people of color, feminists, and members of other subaltern groups that there concerns are illegitimate or too divisive to be discussed, they only deepen that divide you want to pretend doesn't exist.

See this on the Irish. http://www.amazon.com/Irish-Became-White-Routledge-Classics/dp/0415963095

[bettyellen]

217. white people wrote those signs. or should I say whiter people, because that is what the belief was.

[BainsBane]

133. It's damn. Just damn.

[1StrongBlackMan]

266. LOL ...

I used that same response to another willfully ignorant "poor white me" poster. I guess he has me on ignore now.

[nomorenomore08]

147. How so? He's trying to downplay the history of racism in America by going "See? White people have

been persecuted too!" Except the very fact that said white people weren't even though of as white at the time, undermines his attempt at making a point.

[riqster]

10. What a steaming load of bollocks.

I am a white male, and am neither responsible for all the problems nor for all of the solutions. Just because I have the benefits of privilege (yes, indeed, white and male privilege do exist) does not translate into a blanket statement of blame or responsibility.

All of us share the planet, and until we stop with the divide-and-conquer thinking, we won't truly be able to work together.

And until we work together, our mutual problems will remain unsolved.

[1StrongBlackMan]

269. I have to take issue with a part of what you wrote ...

White folks are 100% responsible for ending racism.

[riqster]

281. We are, among white people.

Those changes come from inside, not out.

I worked in Mexico for a while, and I can tell you that there was a very strong brand of color-based hatred towards whites AND blacks. Non-Hispanics were not welcome, amongst those that saw differences based on color. Taught me a lot about racism from the other side of the color line.

And the most important thing it taught me was that such nonsense lies within the individual, and that only by removing it from our individual selves would we progress.

I agree that in America, the vast bulk of racism comes from whites. But the solution is the same, and lies within.

[1StrongBlackMan]

284. Please take this as educational ...

Even in Mexico, what you experienced was ethnicity - based BIGOTRY, not racism.

[riqster]

285. I'd say none of these distinctions are based on race.

There is no color-based race, only one human race. These class/ethnicity/color-based divisions are all based on a need to divide and conquer.

To say that it's racism for black/white but not for brown/white is an example of how even academics can get sucked into a false construct. Example:

My home town was (back in the 60's) was primarily divided between Italians, Anglos, and Hillbillies. All technically "white" but very much divided. A goodly degree if animosity reigned between these groups: I had Italians call me "white". Homogeneity was actually heterogenous.

A popular joke at the time was, "What do you call a Hilljack in a tree full of possums? 'Branch manager!'"

Some years later, I was dating a young lady from Cincinnati, and heard this joke: "What do you call a N***** in a tree full of monkeys? 'Branch manager!'"

Shook me to core, it did, exposing my own history of prejudice, division and "othering". And I realized that we are all part of one race, and that the divisions we create are all bullshit.

So whether the division is based on color, gender, ability, sexual identity, hair length, etc.: it is all division, and we as humanity need to unify.

I know that is a contrary position in some circles, and don't expect to change anyone's mind. But it is an explanation if why I speak the way I do. There exist social strata based on these divisions, and we need to acknowledge them and seek to break them down.

[1StrongBlackMan]

286. While I appreciate your opinion ...

You are correct, it cuts against all academic studies and current academic thought. But let me point out, racial differences are real (though that's not to say one is better or worse than the others) ... by seeking to make one race, you seek to eliminate what makes me (and my racial grouping) unique.

Our differences is not the problem ... it's the value assigned to those differences.

[riqster]

287. I hear you. I am not advocating some sort of dehumanizing loss of uniqueness.

I am of mixed Highland Scot and Gascon French extraction. Both unique, and they contribute to what I am today.

You are a unique individual and your ethnicity contributes to who you are today.

All of our characteristics go into the creation of ourselves, and we place different emphases on traits as we create who we are. My growth process has resulted in a tendency to look past appearances to the person within. And perhaps that causes me to miss surface elements that are important to others. I'll have to ponder that. Thank you!

I especially like your last sentence in this post, and would add this: "and how those differences are used by society to pit us against each other".

[1StrongBlackMan]

291. Okay ...

I glad you understand/were willing to consider what I was saying.

I also completely agree with that last comment. Years ago, someone gave me this council:

If someone is hitting you with a stick, you have 3 choices: 1) sit there and keep getting hit; 2) run away and remove yourself from the harm; 3) take the stick away from the person/people hitting you.

These privilege threads make it pretty clear that DUers differ as to the appropriate strategy. PoC, clearly reject the first two options, favoring the last one.

Most non-PoC, seem to favor the first two option ... because they refuse to be called to do the latter.

[riqster]

292. Thanks to you as well for tolerating my unorthodox POV.

[1StrongBlackMan]

296. It's called ...

Respectful discussion.

[riqster]

297. Indeed. And all too rare in these times.

Making it doubly appreciated when it occurs.

[riqster]

298. I neglected to mention, I am a big proponent of the third option.

It's why I am an election integrity and GOTV activist. The Repub party has itself become a "stick" that is used to beat on us. So to take it away, we must elect Dems to take their places.

[1StrongBlackMan]

299. Absolutely ...

But as, a Black man, I must multi-task because, clearly, it'll nowhere near solve the problem, as it lies in all political factions ... But getting out republicans will help, with a different problem.

[Jamastiene]

273. ^THIS.

Best answer.

[Lex]

11. Wow, if only white men could be in charge of something

like the government or if they had any wealth or power in the U.S. Maybe then things would change!

[riqster]

30. Brilliant!

[TorchTheWitch]

68. I might have to embroider this on a pillow

or hell, just make a huge tapestry.

[Starry Messenger]

71. Posting in adoration!

[gollygee]

72. OK you just made this thread worth reading

LOL

[Marrah_G]

77. You win the internet :)

[uponit7771]

101. +1

[JI7]

119. well, some do think everything was great until the black guy got there and now things are the worst

ever and benghazi is the WORST THING EVER.

[adigal]

124. I love how people purposefully miss the point

White men do get blamed for most of society's ills, and, yes, they did cause most. But they also solved most of them because they had the power to do so.

[Lex]

135. So let me get this right.

White men:

1. make most of the problems
2. cause most of the problems
3. solve most of the problems

Thank you for making sure I got the point. I think we are all a little more informed now.

[adigal]

267. You are so very welcome!

I'm glad I could help.

[nomorenomore08]

149. So at best, you could say they've (partially) cleaned up their own messes... n/t

[Harmony Blue]

205. I don't agree that white men solve most of the problems

but it has a reached a point where the apex fallacy reaches a new height.

[adigal]

268. Not sure to what you are referring

But your believing something to be not true doesn't make it so.

[Hippo_Tron]

138. This is the point at which somebody inevitably says...

"But I'm white and all those white people in government aren't doing anything for me."

To which the proper response is, "have you ever considered that your problems don't have anything to do with race, but with class?"

[Nay]

140. Yeah! Make it so! Oh, wait.......

[1StrongBlackMan]

270. Or, if white men could just ....

Stop supporting the racial status quo, then maybe racism would die a natural death from starvation.

[myrna minx]

12. LoL.

[chervilant]

13. hmm... a little cheez to go with your whine:

On Tue May 13, 2014, 10:40 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

As a white male I am blamed for all the ills of society
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024947948

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Seriously why is this guy still here?

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue May 13, 2014, 10:47 AM, and the Jury voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Flame bait for sure, but I think trash the thread is also an option for this OP.
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Seriously, why do some members have such a defensive response to discussions of privilege and racism?
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: That's not a question for a jury - why don't you use Ignore, Trash Thread, Trash by Keyword?
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: This post is fine, the OP is clearly looking to express his feelings, there is no harm in that, it is not against DU guidelines.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: If people insist on discussing the WP issue, repeatedly and endlessly, there will be lots of opinions. this one is in not offensive.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

I'll let you guess which is my response, but since you're now on my IL, I doubt it will be relevant.

[NuclearDem]

14. Historically, and presently in some circles, white men are the cause of a lot of problems.

But unless you're part of the MIC, financial sector, etc. no one here is blaming you for those problems. That's a strawman.

Saying that you benefit from centuries of white male dominance through certain cultural assumptions about you based on your skin color is not blaming you for all the world's ills. All that's being asked is that you look at the world through that context and you adjust behavior and words accordingly.

It's only hard when one constructs ridiculous strawmen to deflect.

[Iggo]

24. ^^^^^

[wavesofeuphoria]

100. Well stated. Thanks

[hfojvt]

106. But what you wrote here

is denial of what really happens.

I just got back from lunch, played a game of chess, and then visited DU, clicked on a "greatest" thread. Titled something like "Best white privilege thread ever".

It was a video where the guy, at some point, says "In the future white people are gonna be fu$%ed up the ass (note, if I said that I would probably be jumped for being homophobic but this guy gets a pass since he is bashing white people) for what WE did in the past - and WE DESERVE IT."

Yep, he "joked" that all white people should be treated like Reginald Denny because of what some white people did in the past.

"We deserve it" - ha, ha, ha. So funny and so true.

"If you don't believe in white privilege, you're an a$$hole".

But nah, nobody is hating on white people.

[nomorenomore08]

150. How about what some white people do in the present? Donald Sterling, sadly, is likely not

all that unrepresentative of older, wealthy white men in this country. I know you're not wealthy yourself, and neither am I, but wait a second...

What about the non-wealthy white people who practically celebrate the abuse and murder of black suspects by police? What about those who "joke" about reducing the welfare rolls by indiscriminately shooting "ghetto animals"? The amount of vile, murderous racism visible on many Internet comment threads is enough to make one despair - and unfortunately, it's not confined to Stormfront.

So if anyone "should be treated like Reginald Denny," it's the aforementioned. Not "all white people" by a longshot.

[Ed Suspicious]

15. I feel like I'm watching Fox News.

[redqueen]

20. +1

[boston bean]

22. The OP made me LOL, but your comment has me ROFLMAO!

[bettyellen]

16. I'm hoping this is one of those "last gasp" things I have heard about....

[stage left]

17. I don't think anyone expects you to solve all the problems of this society,

They just want you to acknowledge that the problems exist.

[Iggo]

19. No, you're not.

[leftyohiolib]

21. this white man has no power to cause any ills

youre conflating white people and rich white people

[Gormy Cuss]

23. You're neither blamed as an individual nor charged with solving the problems.

You are asked to recognize that you were born with advantages that make your road in life easier than others without those advantages. By recognizing that you may be more attuned to the struggles of others and the insidious nature of biases based on immutable traits like skin color, national origin, gender, sexual orientation.

The funny thing is, most people don't want to participate in institutional racism and other biases. Simply being made aware of such bias is enough for some them to choose to fight against them, or at the very least to acknowledge that someone should be trying to eradicate it.

Some people unfortunately fall into other categories: those who want to preserve their advantages by denying the existence of the biases, and those who get defensive because they think recognizing privilege is accepting personal blame.

You have a choice. Which category works for you?

[boston bean]

27. Thanks for trying, once again.

It's only been said hundreds of times. Maybe one time it will sink in. Although I am losing patience.

[Eleanors38]

48. I have a couple of questions:

1) If something has "been said hundreds of times" without sinking in, is the message or the method at fault?

2) If all DUers conceded tomorrow the existence of "white privilege," would you accept that concession?

[PeaceNikki]

52. In many cases, it's the angry refusal to believe.

It's not unique to DU.

http://www.timwise.org/2008/09/explaining-white-privilege-or-your-defense-mechanism-is-showing/

Sigh.
I guess I should have expected it, seeing as how it’s nothing new. I write a piece on racism and white privilege (namely, the recently viral, “This is Your Nation on White Privilege”), lots of folks read it, many of them like it, and others e-mail me in fits of apoplexy, or post scathing critiques on message boards in which they invite me to die, to perform various sexual acts upon myself that I feel confident are impossible, or, best of all, to “go live in the ghetto,” whereupon I will come to “truly appreciate the animals” for whom I have so much affection (the phrase they use for me and that affection, of course, sounds a bit different, and I’ll leave it to your imagination to conjure the quip yourself).

Though I have no desire to debate the points made in the original piece, I would like to address some of the more glaring, and yet reasonable, misunderstandings that many seem to have about the subject of white privilege. That many white folks don’t take well to the term is an understatement, and quite understandable. For those of us in the dominant group, the notion that we may receive certain advantages generally not received by others is a jarring, sometimes maddening concept. And if we don’t understand what the term means, and what those who use it mean as they deploy it, our misunderstandings can generate anger and heat, where really, none is called for. So let me take this opportunity to explain what I mean by white privilege.

Yet many who wrote to me took issue with the notion that there was such a thing, arguing, for instance that there are lots of poor white people who have no privilege, and many folks of color who are wealthy, who do. But what this argument misses is that race and class privilege are not the same thing.

Though we are used to thinking of privilege as a mere monetary issue, it is more than that. Yes, there are rich black and brown folks, but even they are subject to racial profiling and stereotyping (especially because those who encounter them often don’t know they’re rich and so view them as decidedly not), as well as bias in mortgage lending, and unequal treatment in schools. So, for instance, even the children of well-off black families are more likely to be suspended or expelled from school than the children of poor whites, and this is true despite the fact that there is no statistically significant difference in the rates of serious school rule infractions between white kids or black kids that could justify the disparity (according to fourteen different studies examined by Russ Skiba at Indiana University).

As for poor whites, though they certainly are suffering economically, this doesn’t mean they lack racial privilege. I grew up in a very modest apartment, and economically was far from privileged. Yet I received better treatment in school (placement in advanced track classes even when I wasn’t a good student), better treatment by law enforcement officers, and indeed more job opportunities because of connections I was able to take advantage of, that were pretty much unavailable to the folks of color I knew growing up. Likewise, low income whites everywhere are able to clean up, go to a job interview and be seen as just another white person, whereas a person of color, even who isn’t low-income, has to wonder whether or not they might trip some negative stereotype about their group when they go for an interview or sit in the classroom answering questions from the teacher. Oh, and not to put too fine a point on it, but even low-income whites are more likely to own their own home than middle income black families, thanks to past advantages in housing and asset accumulation, which has allowed those whites to receive a small piece of property from their families.

The point is, privilege is as much a psychological matter as a material one. Whites have the luxury of not having to worry that our race is going to mark us negatively when looking for work, going to school, shopping, looking for a place to live, or driving for that matter: things that folks of color can’t take for granted.

Much more at link

[Gormy Cuss]

61. 1) It's the message.

2) Conceding on the existence of privilege is only the beginning. Only when people accept that it exists and learn to recognize it will we be able to remedy it.

[Eleanors38]

62. This has gone on for decades. Any improvement?

[boston bean]

66. Not with those who would like to deny it.

You would like to deny the others the right to even speak of it?

[Eleanors38]

90. Maybe the methodology needs to change.

I'm not into denying anyone from talking about anything, are you?

[boston bean]

91. Yeah, I am when people are hurting others. I want to deny them from hurting others any longer.

[nomorenomore08]

151. We can certainly keep them away from progressive discussion boards. If we really want to. n/t

[VanillaRhapsody]

69. Well we don't have separate bathrooms anymore....so there is that!

and miscegenation is no longer against the law....and I think Black people can even vote now...so there is that...

[Eleanors38]

92. Sounds like you don't see much improvement. Maybe

a different approach is needed?

[VanillaRhapsody]

93. I have seen alot of improvement...

in fact my grandmother was born into a world where women couldn't vote!

Have we women come a long way baby?

[boston bean]

94. And women certainly didn't keep their mouths shut to effect change.

Something that so many people here want others to do.

I don't get it. They think change happens when people don't speak up.

When it's the opposite. Change happens when people do speak up and out.

[Eleanors38]

136. Why, yes! The president women first voted for: Harding.

[Gormy Cuss]

98. How long did it take for women's suffrage to be accepted? To end poll taxes?

How long did it take to abolish slavery? To get rid of Jim Crow laws?

Unfortunately, it's a long road to change.

[Eleanors38]

121. It is indeed.

[Eleanors38]

209. Would you believe white people if they conceded WP?

[Harmony Blue]

207. I will answer your questions honestly:

1. Shaming tactics never work (eg Feminist shaming tactics)

2. No because those who hold power are the 1%

[Eleanors38]

208. The questions I have asked often go unanswered:

I suppose because a "yes" (for #1) might imply: "why change course by bringing up WP?", or "No" might imply (since guilt-tripping whites has been around since Sly & the Family Stone) WP checking doesn't work.

I agree about the 1%.

What puzzles me, and what is missed in these discussions is the white folks often will concede (as I do) to some racism; you cannot be raised without some of the institutionalism aspects rubbing off, and without "stepping in it" on occasion. One in a while, white folks will remind each other of it, try to junk that aspect & behavior, and move on. The main thing is to try to do better, as groups and induviduals. In rare situations, I have had to leave a friend or acquaintance behind because they couldn't or wouldn't leave something behind. I dare say, it's happened to me.

Here we are again, 50 yrs later! Thanks for the discussion.

[uppityperson]

73. I wish we could recommend individual posts. Thank you.

[Harmony Blue]

126. I wasn't born with advantages

I was actually born with more disadvantages but it requires a level of empathy many of the close minded (in this thread) truly lack. The blonde, blue eyed, pale whites ostracize me for not being white enough while non whites blame me for what the top 1% of whites have done to this world (apex fallacy) against non-white past and present. I have no identity or allegiance to a race or ethnicity. I am the lone light in the darkness and I have embraced the realization. I am alone and I have to things on my own.

Why should I have a vested interest in helping people that hate me because I am white? Because I am a human. But at some point you have to consider walking way from it all and let the rest of the world sort their own chaos in the universe.

To answer a question a person posted. The approach hasn't worked because a lot of Italians, Greeks, Iranians, and Romani have been treated as outcasts for a long time in the United States. And yet they started at the bottom and worked their way to the top. If you want to argue privilege it doesn't make logical sense if you understand American history.... Most Baptists, Protestants, and Lutherans looked down on these people as sub human.

..

[Gormy Cuss]

130. Your vested interest is in ending hate.

If you can't see that, I'm sorry.

[Harmony Blue]

206. Can't end hate if there is no communication or open dialogue

when whites feelings are disparaged and not considered.

[Gormy Cuss]

211. There is an open dialogue here on this topic.

This thread is one example of it.

[Harmony Blue]

220. Snark and belittlement of opposing view points

isn't a discussion.

MLK fought for civil rights not for privileges...

[Gormy Cuss]

242. Have I snarked on you? Belittled your viewpoint?

No, and I'm not the only one who keeps trying to have a civil discussion on this issue.
You're right, MLK didn't fight for privileges. He fought against them.

[nomorenomore08]

153. So what do you think explains the relative lack of African-American wealth and achievement?

Lower intelligence? "Thug culture"? Can you come up with any answer that isn't just a right-wing, racist talking point?

And believe me, there are very few people who truly "hate" you or me for being white. I've lived my whole life in a very diverse area and I've barely met a single one.

[Harmony Blue]

224. To be blunt prvilege has nothing to do with the fact

that single mothers are on the rise in our country and children simply don't have two parents to help raise them. Also a single mother must work more hours to raise children compared to a household that has two incomes to pull from. The government is tight on money and more and more men (especially black men) are incarcerated for not paying child support whether they are they father or not (biological). Straight Black males have walked away from father hood because there are no role models to look to for inspiration anymore and the entertainment media portrays them as fools. Bill Cosby I rarely agree with but he has talked about how there have always been strong black role models to look to but instead of focusing on black achievement the focus has shifted now.

The black community has the same issues as the LDC of the world in that that birth control education is lacking and that having a lot of kids reduces your spending power simply put. This cycle is difficult to break but it starts at the school level or more specifically public education levels.

[bravenak]

228. This made me feel sick to my stomach.

I heard the same things from republicans recently.

Straight black men are being incarcerated disproportionately and sentenced harsher, not 'walking away' from their kids. By the time they get out after doing ten years for the same crime that a white congressmen got probation for, their kids are grown. You make it sound like, because they don't have somebody on tv to look up to......

You know what. This is just all types of wrong and i am hurt and disgusted that you say this about us without even knowing what is really going on.

[myrna minx]

230. I didn't even know how to reply to his post.

I'm so sorry this kind of hurtful sentiment is allowed here. It's disturbing.

[bravenak]

232. This just means i need to log out.

I felt my eyes tearing up and i just said fuck it. Cry right quick and then let him have it. Not going to bother. This is how America has always seen us and always will.

[myrna minx]

235. You're a wonderful person, bravenak.

I feel like I've personally grown and expanded my understanding by reading your posts and I thank you for patience with those who will not hear - but the post above is just...I can't imagine how that must have felt to read. I'm sorry.

[bravenak]

236. I'm good.

Thank you for trying.

[nomorenomore08]

243. +1

I'm way more pissed off than sad though.

[nomorenomore08]

245. If it's any small comfort, I got my first-ever hidden post in relation to that poster.

So I guess spewing right-wing shit is okay, but a little pushback isn't.

[bravenak]

247. Thats messed up.

I saw that and i decided that what 1sbm said is true. Better to be a racist than to call it out.

Well i'd better get back to searching for my husband, while i look for a role model on tv and worry about my nonexistent sex education. I have to tell one of my kids i have to get rid of them since i guess two is way too many. Maybe i should check the jail for him instead of the living room. Might be out somewhere being portrayed like a fool on tv.

[nomorenomore08]

248. I'm sorry. I'm kind of in disbelief myself.

[bravenak]

251. Used to it.

At least once a week i hear something like that in person. I DO live in Alaska, so, yeah, lots of those out here. Usually they prey on the Alaska Natives, but i get my share of ugly comments.
You shoulda seen high school. This is mild.

The worst racists out here like Don Young my congressman just call us wetbacks and stuff since lots of us are hispanic. I would expect better from liberals, but that's because i am an optimist. It's never the women who say crazy stuff to me. And when men do it their friends get so upset and embarrassed. So i think things are changing. That's good at least.

[Enthusiast]

278. I agree.

It's sad that some on DU hold these views.

[bravenak]

288. Kinda gross.

This is not liberal ideas or thinking. I do not and will never believe that this is the standard. There will always be some rotten apples in the bunch. And the rot spreads if left untended. We need to tend to this line of thinking within our party and fix this before the republicans wise up and stop being racist.

[myrna minx]

229. What an absolutely ignorant and sickening post.

*speechless*

[bravenak]

233. You should do me a solid and self delete this post.

Very ignorant and borderline racist. You know what, never mind.

[uppityperson]

238. "more and more men (especially black men) are incarcerated" disproportionately indeed due to that pr

privilege thing. They are disproportionately incarcerated BECAUSE of the white privilege thing.

As for the men having NO role models and women popping out too many kids? W.T.F.

[tblue37]

305. Like the freakin' Duggars? Oh, but they are white so. . . . nt

[gollygee]

239. Holy crap.

Wow that sounds like it came right out of a Bill O'Reilly transcript.

[redqueen]

240. One benefit of juries leaving your awful posts to stand is that you're getting braver.

Keep posting.

[Starry Messenger]

241. Scratch a misogynist, find a racist.

True almost every time.

[redqueen]

259. [phone] nt

[nomorenomore08]

244. So it's not the legacy of centuries of racism, they're just deadbeats and have too many kids?

Do you realize how much you sound like the right-wingers you probably claim to despise?

[JustAnotherGen]

260. What about all the other reasons black men are incarcerated?

What about black women that don't have children?

And what has the focus shifted to?

I see Sapphire, and Mammy, and Sam - . . . It's like being on Romper Room!

[nomorenomore08]

261. Notice he hasn't replied to any actual black people on this thread...

[JustAnotherGen]

283. Just catching up this morning

I have an idea . . . I will leave it at that. *hilarity and mischief will ensue*

[BainsBane]

263. Those are offensive and hurtful remarks

based entirely on stereotype. You have hurt people here. African American members come to this site to talk to other liberals, and they are treated this way by you. It is wrong.

How could you possibly know anything about the black community when you show so little interest in listening to what black DUers have to say?

[bettyellen]

271. WOW.

[Jamastiene]

274. WTF?

Did I really just see this on DU? I cannot believe you just said that. Those are awful racist things to say.

[Enthusiast]

279. Your's are precisely the same talking points that we hear from Fox "News".

Sad.

[Cali_Democrat]

289. LOL. Ever since you joined DU and began to spout libertarian talking points

I knew exactly what you were.

Thanks for confirming!!

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

293. This is actually WRONG!!! The rate of out of wedlock births among ALL races has

declined, and especially for black girls and women.

In fact, the most recent PEW statistics show that black women are entering college at a faster rate than any other group, including white men and women.

Further, black women are earning college and advanced degrees in numbers greater than we've ever seen in the last decade.

Yes, there is high percentage of existing children without two-parent homes. Of course. But to blame social ills on black women having children who aren't married is just...

I'm at a lost for words. What you have written here is not only racist, it's simly disgusting and you should be ashamed of yourself. But, of course, your post won't get hidden. Doesn't matter how offensive and hurtful your statements are that there are black DUers here who are highly offended. Doesn't matter. Nothing will happen to your outrageous post.

Sick!

Just had to say that.

[Whisp]

295. disgusting rubbish.

[heaven05]

300. I feel your

post is extremely racist and typical of RW thought. You couldn't be progressive or liberal. Do you consider yourself either one of those or are you a RW thinker? How could you spout such RW dribble and blather. Black men are no worse than any other demographic when it comes to facing up to responsibility or not. Really an amazing post from you.

[bravenak]

303. You should have seen his thread about the isla vista shooter.

OMG. He totally sympathized with....... The shooter. I was shocked. Not.

[noiretextatique]

304. of course you agree with Cosby's bullshit

Stereotyping. No...you are most definitely not a part of the problem

[laundry_queen]

162. It is the absolute height of irony for you to invoke the empathy card. nt

[AverageJoe90]

25. Some good stuff here.

Although, TBH, I'm not convinced that that was the intention, at least in most cases(although a few probably actually do feel that way).....even if it does sometimes come across as such.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

28. .

[bravenak]

152. Stealing.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

186. !

[steve2470]

29. Yea, we need WHITE MAN'S ANONYMOUS !

I am so there with ya ! It really sucks being a white dude, not being stopped by the cops every day for some BS reason. Man ! I could go on and on how shitty it is. We get all this hatred because of what that fucker Columbus did 500+ plus years ago, and it's MY fault.


in case I need to add this......

[boston bean]

31. This is just like MRA bullshit, but from a racial angle.

It's an ideology I want nothing to do with.

Dismiss every single wrong done to a minority group because you think they are the ones who are racists and have something against you. Let's be clear, that is basically what your OP is saying. It's a reverse racism argument at it's core. bluck...

[nomorenomore08]

158. +1

[PeaceNikki]

32. lol. poor poor white men. Who will stand up and protect the poor persecuted white men????

[FrodosPet]

163. For reals! Being a white male kicks ass!

All we have to do is admit it to ourselves - life would suck more if we did not hit the genetic lottery. And it has zero to do with biology.

Our culture has brought us up to be hard working and industrious. At a minimum, it is the perception. Protestant work ethic and all. We run with the idea that working smarter AND harder will make us successful. At the minimum, it is a badge of honor in some white cultures not to be a slacker, regardless of how crappy the job is. With that, whether as reality or perception, we will always have access to employment. Somebody who has money will want your services if you have something useful to offer. People of other races and ethnicities, particularly African American and to a lesser degree Latinos, do not enjoy that privilege.

Strong smart white people have nothing to fear from acknowledging privilege. Others... sorry, your on your own. If you want to succeed, quit blaming others, improve yourself. Take courses, read, communicate about something besides how much other people suck. Consider the option that what you WANT to do may not be available, but SOMETHING that pays the rent will be.

Damn, you would think it was difficult by the way people whine!

[Feral Child]

35. Mirror:

You need to find one.

[bravenak]

36. LOL!

[JustAnotherGen]

82. Ha!

[McDiggy]

37. This is why the majority of white men aren't democrats.

White men tell liberals their problems. Liberals tell them their problems are meaningless. Hey, a bunch of CEOs are white, therefore some random white dude in a trailer park in Kentucky is also powerful! Its no wonder they vote Republican.

Meanwhile, the real war, the CLASS war, moves forward with the plutocracy winning while we peasants fight each other over who gets to claim to have it the worst. At each others throats while we are ALL robbed blind.

A curse on the regular joe white men for falling for it, a curse on everyone else for blaming it all on them.

[PeaceNikki]

41. wut?

[bettyellen]

43. Must be hard not feeling like #1 anymore, eh? Uppity women going to college,

the increased competition from us and POC actually getting real jobs and working alongside you. Where will it end?

[McDiggy]

67. College? Men haven't gone to college en masse for a while now.

This is hilarious to me because you don't know anything about me. Obviously I'm a racist/sexist.

And isn't college something like 60% female now? I'm pretty sure it was already past equal when I was born in the 80s. So I've never known a world where women were held down in academia. The funny thing is that I'm in a female dominated profession where 2/3 of graduates are women, so I knew I'd be competing with women from the get go.

But you obviously know ALLLLL about me.

[Feral Child]

45. Or

maybe they just want to protect their privilege?

[NuclearDem]

53. ...

[steve2470]

55. I've never heard a REAL liberal ever say or imply a white man's problems are meaningless

If anything, just the opposite.

Is the framing perfect ? Perhaps not. I'm a white man, and I damn sure don't perceive liberals or the left as not caring at all about my, admittedly, fairly small problems.

[McDiggy]

74. I've seen it on this forum.

"White people" doesn't mean anything. A millionaire WASP isn't comparable to a person living in hell in drug-torn Appalachia. But reading DU lately, they are all part of the same "privileged" class. Its disgusting.

There needs to be an all-encompassing egalitarian movement, but too many don't want that.

[PeaceNikki]

84. you don't get it.

Racial and class privilege are different

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4948460

[laundry_queen]

165. It's okay

not everyone is capable of seeing nuance.

[Lex]

78. No, liberals tell them their problems aren't superior to others' problems.

NOT that liberals tell them their problems are meaningless.

Many white men have trouble with that so they run to party of those who basically deny that racism or classism or hell, even global warming, even EXISTS. It makes some folks feel better to stick their heads in the sand. That's not a good thing but there it is.

[Tarheel_Dem]

85. Where'd you pick up that shit? Over at the daily paul? This is not the DU I came to love.

[PeaceNikki]

87. Is that why YOU aren't a Democrat?

[uponit7771]

102. wow.. are you even paying half way attention to the issues brought up here?

[AverageJoe90]

103. Some truth to that, but we can't allow the far right to escape blame, either.

Because folks like Rush Limbaugh, or the asshole running the Drudge Report, etc......they make it seem like EVERY liberal is a radical extremist who blames all white people for racism, or believes that all men are rapists, etc.; it's not true, of course; these are actually minority positions.....even on the fringe. But unfortunately, that doesn't stop the agitprop from coming forth.

So our job is twofold; to correct the extremists on our side and to debunk the agitprop from the right.....both of which can be a challenge sometimes.

[gollygee]

110. You are strawman city here

White privilege does not mean "blames all white people for racism" and rape culture does not mean "all men are rapists."

[AverageJoe90]

112. I didn't mention either of these two things, gollygee. Not at all.

Hell, I wasn't even thinking of either of these two things when I wrote that. So I dunno where you got that assumption from, other than perhaps pulling it out of your behind.

[gollygee]

113. Here's what you wrote

they make it seem like EVERY liberal is a radical extremist who blames all white people for racism, or believes that all men are rapists, etc.; it's not true, of course; these are actually minority positions.....even on the fringe. But unfortunately, that doesn't stop the agitprop from coming forth.

Those are not minority opinions anywhere. There are no ones opinion anywhere. If you weren't talking about white privilege and rape culture discussions, then you must be the one pulling things out of your ass.

[AverageJoe90]

116. I didn't mention either of those two things.

I wasn't thinking of rape culture at all when I wrote that; in fact, it didn't even cross my mind. And not even white privilege was on the radar with this. It was directed specifically at a small group, and I don't think that most "white privilege" believers(I'd personally estimate about three-quarters) actually blame all white folks for racism. Or most "rape culture" term users think that all men are rapists, or potential rapists, etc.; but there's people like that out there, speaking in a general sense.

But then again, you don't seem to care much about context, so perhaps this will just fly right over your head, as has happened so many times before.

[nomorenomore08]

173. Even assuming that a few folks here and there subscribe to these extreme views, so what?

I pay them no more mind than I would some guy ranting on a street corner.

And as for the "potential rapists" thing, Google "Schrodinger's rapist" sometime. Might provide context.

[redqueen]

118. Who are the extremists you think you need to correct here? nt

[nomorenomore08]

168. Random people on Tumblr/blogs who have no real power or influence over anything?

That's about all I can think of...

[nomorenomore08]

160. Of course being poor sucks, but it doesn't mean you get to trash minorities/gays/women.

I'm not saying you personally do. But it's far from an uncommon phenomenon, especially among white Republicans.

[YoungDemCA]

223. +1

nt

[Enthusiast]

280. Fuck a bunch of CEOs.

I'm just saying.

[Dorian Gray]

42. No... you

really aren't blamed for all the ills of society or expected to solve all the problems.

[Ohio Joe]

44. open racism...

It's not just for free republic anymore.

[AverageJoe90]

51. Oh, give me a break. Honestly.

What was honestly so offensive about this? TBH, I don't agree with the OP quite 100% but a charge of racism is hardly warranted, Ohio Joe. We liberals really should know better than that.

[nomorenomore08]

175. Downplaying the issues faced by racial minorities while claiming to be persecuted as a white man?

It may not be racist per se but it's certainly ignorant.

[uponit7771]

104. The points about white privilege are factual, why does that bother you?

[PeaceNikki]

47. Since you like links and reading, I have some for you.

Whine Merchants: Privilege, Inequality and the Persistent Myth of White Victimhood: http://www.timwise.org/2013/05/whine-merchants-privilege-inequality-and-the-persistent-myth-of-white-victimhood/
Hey White Guys: A Public Service Announcement: http://www.timwise.org/2012/08/hey-white-guys-a-public-service-announcement/

Or... just browse through any of Tim's essays for that matter: http://www.timwise.org/category/essays/

[redqueen]

58. Thank you for posting those. nt

[laundry_queen]

167. +1 nt

[nomorenomore08]

176. +2

[HERVEPA]

57. Harmony is part of your name? really?

[bettyellen]

218. and don't forget the Blue.....

LOL.

[Puzzledtraveller]

75. You are right about one thing

"DU in my honest opinion which is borderline elitist and a tad arrogant."

[TDale313]

80. ...

[lostincalifornia]

81. One comment about your post. BULLSHIT

[Starry Messenger]

83. "No one knows what it's like to be the sad maaaaan..."

[TDale313]

86. Oh, now I'm gonna have that song in my head all day.

[Starry Messenger]

117. Good thing I was on my phone, I was going to post video too. :)

[nomorenomore08]

177. Funny, I have blue eyes. And I've been known to suffer from chronic depression.

Yet it should almost go without saying that I consider the OP worthy.

[Enthusiast]

282. ...

[TeacherB87]

88. No one thinks you, personally, are responsible.

But we are ALL responsible for confronting white privilege. You can get defensive and build a cross for yourself, but that doesn't do anything for anyone but yourself. I'm sorry your racial pride is hurt by discussions of privilege, but get over it.

Again, no one thinks YOU personally are responsible.

[YoungDemCA]

89. The image that should accompany this thread:

[ancianita]

96. As a relatively privileged white woman, I'm open to any and all honest awareness, and honest effort

based on that awareness. If there's more to learn about "the shit you don't have to put up with it," that willingness goes a long way with anyone, I'd say. It does with me.

I'd add that, for me, when I'm being disadvantaged by systems that privilege white men, my calling is to create space which allows the privileged to be their best selves. And then work with that -- or challenge any presumptions of privilege when I experience them, humorously or not, depending on the context -- since few of the privileged can throw off 100% of their acquired mentality or behavior. Sometimes I'm frustrated. But where I see effort I see hope.

Those disadvantaged can alienate potential allies if they impose 'loyalty oaths' or 'tests' on their allies every time they're around. Walking around with psychological dukes up doesn't help those who want to be, or work as, allies of systemically disadvantaged minorities, women or anyone else. I think this was an important lesson for me as I saw how I was perceived while working in a black community.

[nomorenomore08]

178. "...create space which allows the privileged to be their best selves."

Exactly. This has nothing to do with hating or condemning anyone. Just being a better, more conscientious person.

[ancianita]

213. Agreed.

[Initech]

97. This whole debate reminds me of an episode of 30 Rock.

The whole episode Tracy and Jenna are having a debate about who has it harder in society: women or black men. At the end of the episode this happens:

Jack: I'll tell you who has it hardest in society: white males. We make the unpopular decisions that make everyone else's lives miserable.
Kenneth: Well I'm a white male and I respectfully disagree.
Jack: No Kenneth you are not a white male. Socially and economically speaking your personality paints you as an inner city Latina female.

[uponit7771]

105. +1

[raccoon]

99. Start eating worms right now, if you aren't already. nt

[Zenlitened]

107. Good news: You can take a breather and stop worrying.

Because it turns out no one is expecting you to solve all the problems. Heck, you're not expected to solve ANY of them. No one is.

You see, solving big problems is a group project and lots of other people want to pitch in too, some of them neither white nor male. Imagine that!

Sure, it would be great if you wanted to pitch in as well, but that's entirely your choice.

If it all seems too daunting, or if working in big and often unstructured groups is not your thing... well fine. Not a problem.

Other folks are happy to get on with the project, and ask only that you avoid interrupting their work.

[nomorenomore08]

187. "Other folks... ask only that you avoid interrupting their work."

Indeed. And this OP is a perfect example of interruption/distraction.

[SaltyBro]

108. In my opinion

White people should not be able to discuss their white privilege because it is so ingrained in them. It is like religious people who grew up with that religion not being able to see past its tenets and allow different perspectives.

[Rex]

109. IKR!? IT is as if white men had some kind of negative history with other races or something!

Not like we nearly eradicated a race of people...er...not like we brought over by force 20 million white men to labor for us as slaves. Not like we forced another races of people to live on reservations or in internment camps in supposedly modern times. Not like we are 2 out of every 3 people you meet on the streets. Not like we destroyed the lives of millions on Wall Street with greed.

It's not like we started ALL the wars in our history or caused any kind of untold hardship for the working class (see we are totally fair in that regard to race). NO, white men are blamed for all kinds of things that we didn't do.

Right?

People pretend that white men come from a long line of dominating assholes that used despicable means to keep/grab what they want, when they wanted to. There is irrefutable evidence that we are just victims of circumstances.

Yep...that must be it.

[SaltyBro]

111. Bravo!

Whites are the cause of every single major war in the history of mankind and have brought suffering to billions and billions of people! Know that!

[Shandris]

114. Empathy is a two way street, and both sides seem to lack it.

I'm not surprised, but it is rather depressing. And still no strategy or endgame in sight. It's like the invasion of Iraq all over again, in a social manner. No idea what we'll do if the (impossible) conditions we've set forward are somehow met, and if they aren't we'll just keep destroying each other.

COINTELPRO certainly did a good job. Look at this thread. 200 posts or so of nothing but snark. It's like I'm really on 4chan.

[AverageJoe90]

120. I can't really blame you, TBH.

Sometimes it's tough being a voice of reason, especially with contentious subjects like this.

[nomorenomore08]

188. So what makes you (or any individual) a "voice of reason" over and above others?

And you wonder why some posters think you come across as arrogant...

[bravenak]

190. TBH.....

I was wondering the same thing.

[DrewFlorida]

115. If you are part of the problem, then you deserve the blame.

I'm a middle aged mixed European/Cherokee, I look like any other middle aged white man. I am ashamed of what whites have done, and continue to do, to people who don't look the same. While I have been the victim of racism many times because of my white skin, I blame that on the lackings of that individual's character. As of yet I have never been the victim of institutionalized racism directed to suppress me and all that look like me, when I do, I'll know just a tiny bit of what it has been like for minorities in America for centuries.

Start being part of a solution rather than just complaining about poor old you.

[joshcryer]

122. I'm so white I'm not guilted by the white guilt trips.

[nomorenomore08]

189. I feel no particular "white guilt" either. Funny that.

Nor am I racially "self-loathing" or any of the other bullshit the reactionaries like to fling around.

P.S. I'm not calling you a "reactionary" at all. Just so we're clear.

[joshcryer]

191. I find it silly to get worked up over something I have no control over.

If I was in a position of power perhaps I might consider that I have to do something about it. I treat people kindly and with mutual respect.

[adigal]

123. I rarely come here, because there isn't really serious discussion here

Someone makes a statement, then everyone tries to outsmart each other, and only the most extreme view is tolerated, no there's allowed. Don't waste a brain cell worrying about it. This thread is evidence that I am correct.

[rhett o rick]

125. So your point is that people dont post anything serious. I hope you see the irony. nm

[Skittles]

144. so of the mulitude of topics up for discussion

you felt this was worthy? THAT might be your problem.

[Gravitycollapse]

127. I gather this thread was created for sympathy which you did not receive.

Which is as it should be.

[Squinch]

128. A) Yes, Harmony Blue, I blame you for all the ills of society. Because it's all about you.

B) I find it fascinating how it seems to only be white men who have such difficulty with this concept. White women, of whom I am one, don't seem to have any problem with it at all. Hmmm. That tells me that those who have been on the short end of privilege get it, and those who have not, don't.

[cyberswede]

139. Good point

[laundry_queen]

169. +1 nt

[redqueen]

225. Oh there is a tiny handful of women supporting the handful

of men here who are fond of RW talking points re racism. Stuff like thinking racism goes both ways and how hard it is on the white men here to know that people are talking about whir privilege... when it's not even in the news or anything!

And, interestingly (though hardly surprisingly) those same few women agree with the same few men about certain issues relating to feminism, as well.

[Squinch]

237. I was going to say before I read your last paragraph, "But it's just the usual suspects."

Middle-school often persists.

[SummerSnow]

129. But I thought everything was Obama's fault? Oh just the white side of him

[cherokeeprogressive]

131. You perpetuate "white privilege" every day... wittingly OR unwittingly.

Believe it or not it's really quite simple to see how. Did you get pulled over today for driving while white? Mmm hmm. Perpuator. Did you get followed around Macy's, or whatever upscale department store you shop in, because you were white? Just as I thought... Perpuator.

It's not like we should blame the asshole cop or store clerk; It's YOU who is white, and THAT stain ain't washin' off, Perpuator...

If the aforementioned things did NOT happen to you, it's you who allow this situation to continue. Here's why... as a very popular DUer put it last night, THIS is what "white privilege" is:

"All it means is that those of us are white don't have to put up with shit that people of color face everyday."

You see; it really IS that simple. So simple in fact, that post has 128 recs as of this moment.

Don't fear it, and don't fight it. The good Reverend King notwithstanding; the content of your character is forever tainted by the stain of white on your skin. At this point, your best bet is to embrace your role in causing and perpetuating "white privilege", and to understand there is no salvation for you. No purification short of fire.

[Jamastiene]

275. What is a perpuator? n/t

[kwassa]

132. Time for a sad violin

[RedCappedBandit]

137. It's ironic that these pathetic posts perpetuate the issue of whites being seen as the ones who..

don't understand.



Can you people fucking stop making the rest of us look bad? Thanks.

[Harmony Blue]

226. It is eye opening is it not?

I am an easy target because I am a pacifist and I don't fight back with personal attacks. But as this thread shows, and showcases, we are not going to make progress on these privilege discussions IMVHO.

[RedCappedBandit]

227. Please do not fall under the impression that I am in agreement with your OP

I am not. Your OP is part of the problem and a reason why progress in regards to privilege is difficult.

[nomorenomore08]

262. I hope the OP sees that hardly anyone on the thread agrees with him. That's important if we want to

discourage this kind of shit from being posted. "Self-loathing" is the new "ni**er lover" - you do realize that, don't you?

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

294. You're so clueless that you can't even tell when someone is being sarcastic...

...AND DOESN'T AGREE WITH YOU OR YOUR IDIOTIC POST!!!!

[nomorenomore08]

141. And black/Latino males aren't? *Constantly*???

Hell, just look at your average Internet comment thread outside moderated enclaves like DU.

Also, anti-Semitism and anti-Irish/Italian sentiment are not examples of "anti-white racism." Why? Because these groups, in the past, were not considered white and thus bore the brunt of American racism just like other nonwhite folks.

"Why should I have a vested interest in a society that sees me as a problem as long as I breathe?"

A black or brown person might very well ask the very same question.

[nomorenomore08]

161. "Historical advantages" are only one part of it. The mere fact that you're a white person

in the U.S., today, means you're perceived differently than you would be if you weren't white. Why do you think there's no such thing (in common discourse) as "driving while white"? And that's only one example.

[nomorenomore08]

166. So when have you been, say, hassled by cops for being white?

Which is not the same thing, mind you, as getting hassled for being poor, gay, etc.

Do you flat-out deny that law enforcement, and the legal system, are generally harder on black folks than white folks?

[nomorenomore08]

179. Then why are the millions of people in prison so disproportionately black?

Can you give an answer that doesn't imply certain folks are natural-born criminals?

[nomorenomore08]

195. Damn, wish I could've seen his reply... But thanks, MIRT!

[FrodosPet]

174. In some neighborhoods in Detroit, the police have been known to pull over whites

Their perception is either:

1. You are some clueless white person who made a wrong turn and we want you out of here before you get hurt and get us stuck doing paperwork and dealing with press (because a white victim in The City draws a lot more media than a black victim), or
2. You are a druggie trying to score.

But in spite of that rare little technicality where they are doing it more to protect whites than harass them, yes, you are FAR more likely to get pulled over for DWB than DWW.

[nomorenomore08]

180. True. No one said (or implied) that all individual white folks have it easy. n/t

[FrodosPet]

171. Why we all should have a vested interest

"Why should I have a vested interest in a society that sees me as a problem as long as I breathe?"

So society will be wrong, not right!

Just because the whole world doesn't love you, that doesn't mean the whole world hates you.

[U4ikLefty]

142. As a white guy, I can tell you...white folks HATE talk of white privilege.

In fact, if you are a white person who mentions it, you will be immediately ignored if not shunned.

[nomorenomore08]

181. Frankly, I'm almost glad the majority of my friends aren't white (even though I am).

And those who are tend to "get it" better than the average, probably due to - much like myself - being friends with a diverse range of people.

[SheilaT]

154. ahh, jeez.

No, you are not blamed for all the ills of society.

We're just trying to get you to understand that you have a degree of privilege, invisible and unacknowledged, that has made a huge difference in your life.

I've posted more than once about the older white female privilege that I've benefitted from, especially in a traffic stop. Many years ago, at the beginning of the Women's Movement, I discovered that the man who most understood what we women were complaining about was a black man. He was kind and gracious to me, and explained things about the racial divide that I otherwise would have never understood.

We all occupy a particular niche. Some of those niches involve more privilege than others. My now ex is Jewish, although even other Jews couldn't tell unless he clued them in. He found it especially interesting in one job he had to not let on for the first five or six years that he was Jewish. He was a fly on the wall and watched the occasional anti-Semitism and found it quite interesting.

I've experienced discrimination against women, especially in male-only jobs. It was an eye opener. But it's not the only thing that shapes my life. I am also heterosexual. I've had two children. Someone who is gay, or who never had children has experienced a different reality than I have. Likewise someone (like a recent friend) who has a handicapped child, lives a different reality than I do.;

We need to not only acknowledge the power of those who are in charge (in our culture it's largely straight white men) but to understand that we all have different lives.

[nomorenomore08]

183. Great post. You seem like the sort of conscientious, empathetic person I try my best to be.

Yeah, sometimes I'm harsh, even a bit antagonistic, but I'd like to think it's in the service of bettering the world we live in, in my own miniscule way.

[SheilaT]

194. We all have our limitations.

And it helps if we acknowledge them. That doesn't give us the okay to be a jerk, or to have no empathy, but if we realize that we operate within our own limitations, and we still try to understand others, then we can go a long way to understanding each other.

We stand inside our own skin. But it is possible to get past that.

[Skip Intro]

157. We should all feel great shame for merely drawing breath, evidently.

Whites. (Hetro) men. Christians.

How dare we not just shut up and feel all-consuming guilt for simply existing?

[nomorenomore08]

184. And the award for Strawman of the Century goes to...

[Skip Intro]

185. How so?

[nomorenomore08]

196. Because you're greatly exaggerating people's animus towards you.

Funny how I'm straight, white, and male (though not Christian) just like you, yet I've never been personally attacked by any of the people you claim are so bigoted against the above.

Have you considered that what people are attacking may be your ideas and opinions, not your skin color/gender/sexuality?

[Skip Intro]

197. You replied to me, "strawman." Again - how so?

Explain.

Something like, "Well, Skip, you said x and I called it a strawman because..."

You know, back up your bullshit.

[nomorenomore08]

199. Because no one (or virtually no one) on here literally hates straight white males.

It's a bullshit argument that says more about you than anyone else.

[Buddyblazon]

193. So the gist that I'm getting from the majority of these posts...

is that as a white male you SHOULD feel guilt and you SHOULD feel shame...simply because you're white and male. It's not okay to tell someone they should feel guilt or shame for being an African American male, or Latina. But it's perfectly okay to say those things about white guys.

I'm a white male as well. I had no idea I was so evil. My presence alone is an affront to all things good in this world.

I'm sorry to all for not feeling worse about who I am.

[defacto7]

200. And here I thought

it was anyone over 30.

[merrily]

202. Rudyard Kipling, is that you?

[Skittles]

203. white men are expected to solve all the problems?

omg, the arrogance

[dawg]

214. No one blames me for the ills of society. I feel very little guilt, and even so, only for ...

the things that I have personally perpetrated (like driving a gas guzzler).

But I have white privilege. I'm also privileged for being male.

I didn't ask for it, but I'm certainly not going to deny that it exists. It makes my life easier in countless ways.

Does that mean my life is perfect and that I have most of what I want and need? Of course not. But things would be even harder if I were black, or a woman, or gay.

Why would anyone want to try and deny that?

[NCTraveler]

216. Should have thought this out a little more before hitting post.

Please listen to what many duers say on this subject. Many of them are excellent at sharing their knowledge. You could benefit from them if you go in with the understanding that you don't understand.

[Harmony Blue]

221. No

Fundamentally, most that are against Snowden for revealing what the government is doing to trample our rights feel the discussion of privilege has more merit instead. The hypocrisy is too much IMVHO.

[YoungDemCA]

222. What does Snowden have to do with discussions of privilege?

[nomorenomore08]

246. An excuse to change the subject, I suppose. n/t

[BainsBane]

253. Just an excuse not to listen to people

nothing else.

[NCTraveler]

290. Huh? Aren't you the op? nt.

[bravenak]

231. Very disgusting op.

Whites were discriminated by other whites. They all discriminated against blacks. Don't forget the Jim Crow stuff that still lingers on in our society to this day.
You are a part of the problem if you do not understand this.
You need to find some new source material.
Try Slave Narratives free on amazon.
Take a diversity course.
Speak with some black people about the issue at your local NAACP office.
Read a history book.

[randys1]

254. While white supremacists like Rick Scott and Scott Walker and Ohio ALL con governors are actively

engaged in preventing BLACK PEOPLE from voting, right now

today

in the United States of America

where millions may not be allowed to vote, we have crybaby white babies on a DEMOCRATIC message board whining like 6 yr olds.

diss gus ting

[bravenak]

256. I should have remembered to wait my turn.

I'm being divisive. I'm pissed at this op. And anyone who likes it can please do me a favor and never speak to me, and if i accedentally reply to them to please ignore me as i made a mistake and thought they were decent humans.

I vow to post gifs in all of Harmony Blues threads that i remember to do it in before i get bored with it later on today and forget that they exist.




By the way, WTF?!?!

[randys1]

257. I am there with you

On another message board a rightwinger is telling me the hubris is that the entire scientific community thinks they can predict weather

We have actual enemies trying to kill all life as we know it, we dont need so called liberals or progressives making it worse by denying basic shit like white privilege

[zach.magee]

234. understanding

I actually understand your sentiments to a degree. I am a white male, and with that comes privilege. However, I am also a gay male who lives in Mississippi, which takes a lot of that privilege away. I hate being blamed for things just because I am a white male, but I understand that it is a stereotype that I can't escape.

[nomorenomore08]

249. Do you even realize the irony, of complaining about being broadbrushed as a white person

while your reply to me upthread was nothing if not a broadbrush of African-Americans?

Why is it okay to negatively generalize about one race, but not another?

[bravenak]

258. By the way what you said was bad.

Upthread. Where you say that black men 'leave' their families and black women don't have sex education and have too many kids to support.

[BainsBane]

264. I agree

It's also cruel.

[BainsBane]

301. No one bats an eye at that

Whereas your comment gets a witch hunting thread. That really says it all.

[bravenak]

302. Yes it does.

Amazing isn't it. How all those who attacked me never bat an eye or even notice racism directed at people who look like me and never step up to defend me from these generalizations.

[Jamastiene]

277. "elitist" "arrogant"

Did you look those up in a thesaurus because you didn't want to come right out and say "uppity?"