The Good, the Bad, the Ugly and the Essential.

[Uncle Joe]

One thing to keep in mind when thinking about Columbus, had he not lived and did what he did, most people here probably wouldn't exist.

All of history from that era to tomorrow and forever thereafter would be altered.


Sometimes you have to give the devil his due.

[upaloopa]

1. If not Columbus someone would have done what he did

I don't give him the credit you do.

[Uncle Joe]

3. History would be altered regardless, and even a seemingly insignificant change could/would have

great consequences.

[genwah]

5. "Ooops! I stepped on a butterfly!" May be someone less mercenary would have found...n/t

[Uncle Joe]

7. The record of exploring nations and empires from that era don't suggest less mercenary probabilites

and the question of timing also comes in to play in regards to shaping history.

Regardless of whether less mercenary or not the point of the OP being most people here probably wouldn't exist if history were altered.

[genwah]

9. Most people on DU would not exist or more "Americans" in general? I'm of Chinese

ancestry and we also, "discovered" America. At the time our "discoverers" were probably no better than Columbus, so we'll call that a draw.

So, we start with the premise that most people here would not be here if Columbus hadn't "discovered" "America". Is that such a bad thing? Look around. Tea Party? "Justice" Scalia? Go back in history. Jim Crow. Monroe Doctrine. What if we'd never "discovered" anything?

What could the Iroquois Nation have become by now? As a free standing nation, starting trade with Europe, say in the mid 1700s?

That's a stupid example, but I'm working against a stupid idea, that somehow the people who are here now are better than the people who would be here now if some slave-taking greedhead from Europe decided to ask for funds stolen from recently expelled Jews from despots who were interested in expanding their Empire. We have the people here that we have. About half are Republicans, which in the last 30 years means that about half of the voting population is batshit crazy.

We will never know, much less come to a conclusion, that the people we have here now, who do exist, are "better", or somehow more deserving of life, What we do know is that the European "discovery" of "America" is a done deal, we are stuck with it. That doesn't mean that Columbus wasn't a racist, colonialist greedhead. And being of Chinese extraction, if Columbus was right, he would have landed in China and taken my ancestors home as slaves.

Thanks, but, no thanks. That many people now living would not be alive now if not for Columbus is not a very convincing argument. A lot of people now living are crap.

[Uncle Joe]

10. How did your parents and grandparents meet?

Were you born in China and immigrated to the U.S or were you born here?

The U.S. as is true with every other nation is and has been made up humans; great, good, bad, evil, compassionate, brilliant, stupid, selfish, greedy and giving; the whole gamut of human virtues and frailties.

Your prevailing premise of my OP is incorrect.

No where did I suggest that one people's existence rates as "better" or more deserving, I've only stated what is.

[genwah]

13. Both sets as Chinese peasants. Possibly as arranged marriages, I don't know. I do believe

that my paternal grandfather was stood up against a wall and shot.

I understand your premise, but saying that "what is" is justification for Columbus or whether he should be revered is false. I disagree with the implied position of your OP.

[Uncle Joe]

16. Only revered in the sense of his historical impact, some people have posted on another thread

that the history of Columbus should eliminated.

Who shot your grandfather and why if you don't mind me asking?

[Uncle Joe]

11. P.S.

I would expand your premise that it's just most people here at D.U. to most people living in the U.S. regardless of race.

History was altered by Columbus' actions that give shape to our nation and to a lesser extent large sections of the world whether your ancestors came over on the Mayflower or in even in recent decades.

[genwah]

15. Yes, history was altered by Columbus's actions. BFD. We should revere Columbus because he changed

history? So did the bubonic plague.

[Uncle Joe]

21. Both are important cogs of history and neither should be eliminated from history.

Doing so would only dumb down the people.

[Jefferson23]

2. Have not seen your posts in a long time..good to see you!!

True enough about Columbus.

[Uncle Joe]

4. Thanks, Jefferson

it's good to see you as well.

[WillyT]

6. Hey... Thanks For The Thread Uncle Joe !!!

& Rec !!!

[Uncle Joe]

8. Thanks for the thanks, WillyT.

[malaise]

12. Not a fan of that Chris either

Hello Uncle Joe

[Uncle Joe]

18. Hello, malaise.

[Vattel]

14. That is true of Hitler as well.

[Uncle Joe]

17. All of history would be changed without Columbus, perhaps there would've

been no Hitler or perhaps had he still come to power and the U.S. wasn't there to oppose him, he might have succeeded?

[Vattel]

19. Had Columbus not gone to America, you and I and Hitler would never have existed.

Similarly, had Hitler not come to power, you and I would not have existed.

[Uncle Joe]

20. I would submit that Columbus had a greater historical impact on the present day world than Hitler.

Having said that I also believe we shouldn't eliminate them from history, doing so would only decrease humanity's perspective of how we got to where we are and who we are.