General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWho needs 13 million gallons of water in private reservoirs?
http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2012/08/16/man-jailed-for-collecting-rainwater-in-illegal-reservoirs-on-his-property/<snip>
An Eagle Point, Ore., man has begun serving a 30-day jail sentence after he built three reservoirs on his property to collect rainwater -- an apparent violation of a state law that says all water is publicly owned.
Gary Harrington has collected nearly 13 million gallons of water in his reservoirs (one of which is pictured below). That's enough to fill 20 Olympic-size swimming pools. But two weeks ago, he was found guilty of breaking the 1925 Oregon law against private water collection. He was sentenced to 30 days in jail and issued a $1,500 fine.
Oregon's Water Resources Department said that though it is legal to set up rainwater collection barrels on roofs or other artificial surfaces, Harrington's reservoirs go way beyond that and required permits.
"Mr. Harrington has operated these three reservoirs in flagrant violation of Oregon law for more than a decade," the department's deputy director, Tom Paul, told the Medford Mail Tribune.
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Good for Oregon
Major Nikon
(36,818 posts)Like oil, natural gas, and minerals. I agree that all natural resources should be publicly owned. I just don't make exceptions for all the others.
JayhawkSD
(3,163 posts)Note they they said he was doing it "without a permit," Permits are also required to harvest all other natural resources, such as oil and gas, and companies which harvest those resources get the required permits in order to do so. If they do not, they are subject to fines and jail time.
Major Nikon
(36,818 posts)Rainwater is assumed to belong to the public. Other resources are assumed to be owned by whomever owns the rights to that resource with the public retaining no ownership rights whatsoever with anything other than what is on or below public lands.
JayhawkSD
(3,163 posts)I believe rainwater usually is public property only when it falls on public property. Probably varies from state to state.
I think part of the issue with his collection of rainwater was that he was collecting rainwater that fell on property other than his own, and then flowed onto his land. The guy was, in effect, taking natural resources from public property without a permit.
In some states you are required to "accept" water which flows onto your land from outside your property, that is you may not prevent it from doing so, but you cannot keep or store the water. You can, however, "make use of it" as it passes through. for instance by allowing cattle to drink from the stream. I know that was the case in New Mexico when I lived there many years ago.
hobbit709
(41,694 posts)hughee99
(16,113 posts)hobbit709
(41,694 posts)There will be less water moving downstream.
hughee99
(16,113 posts)If you live in an area with a lot of water, even a few million gallons won't be missed.
Cirque du So-What
(25,907 posts)his downstream neighbors could well have too much water. On a larger scale, the original Johnstown (PA) flood is a result of rich fuckers doing what the hell they pleased, creating a lake - using substandard materials, including deadwood and manure, in constructing the dam - for the private use of gilded-age fat cats.
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)struggle4progress
(118,214 posts)Prosecuted a second time, pleaded guilty, put on probation, stopped collecting water while on probation, then resumed as soon as probation ended
Prosecuted a third time, went to trial, found guilty by local jury, fined and jailed with an order to drain the reservoirs and breach the dams
Maybe the nearby city of Medford is serious about protecting its rights to its water supply?
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)make for interesting reading.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021101470
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022465816
And I agree, good for Oregon.
Sid
malaise
(268,664 posts)I'm all for having a reservoir for self use but this is ridiculous
freshwest
(53,661 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)size that is the issue?
malaise
(268,664 posts)Major Nikon
(36,818 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)See s4p's post below. This was never a 'government over-reach' issue, as some are all-to-ready to proclaim.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Where do uncaptured mouse clicks go?[/center][/font][hr]
Major Nikon
(36,818 posts)If he doesn't have a permit for whatever reason, then the lack of a permit is the issue.
Oregon is not going to let you have more water than what you have a legitimate need and perhaps not even then if it impacts people downstream of you. I wouldn't expect the government to do anything less.
randome
(34,845 posts)[hr][font color="blue"][center]"The whole world is a circus if you know how to look at it."
Tony Randall, 7 Faces of Dr. Lao (1964)[/center][/font][hr]
struggle4progress
(118,214 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)Generic Other
(28,979 posts)We get lots of it. Kinda wasteful that one can't collect it without running afoul of authorities. Especially since the real issue is low stream flow impacting hatchery fish.
The water he collects falls on his property and slowly filters down to the water table anyway. I could see them objecting to him diverting streams or rivers, but this is ridiculous over reach by government in my opinion.
Logical
(22,457 posts)FBaggins
(26,714 posts)This would be about 40 acre-feet. Far closer to a pond than a "huge reservoir"
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)He's stealing the water.
And all he had to do if he really really thought he needed tht water was to go through the permit process. If he had a legitimate reason to do this, he would have been granted a permit.
30 days in jail is a just sentence.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)If you read the story, he was even granted the permits, then for reasons unstated, the state later changed its mind, and revoked them.
Leme
(1,092 posts)perhaps in a wetter environment such tanks would not be against regulations, and not in conflict with general public interests. Many land use projects are approved, later found to be detrimental. Some permits get revoked, just how things are. Bad permits, poor decisions, are what commissions and regulatory bodies do at some times. A couple more BP oil spills and I doubt they would be allowed to drill in Gulf.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)Although when I look up Eagle Point, Oregon on google maps, it's in an area that certainly shouldn't be hurting for precipitation. If anything, it's an area in which I'd expect to be getting even wetter with climate change, not drier. It's also really close to the California border, suggesting that most of his downstream neighbours won't even be in Oregon.
And based on the photos, his 'reservoirs' look more like man-made lakes, not tanks. I assume what makes them 'reservoirs' is that he probably laid down concrete under them.
Wounded Bear
(58,584 posts)It applies to all lakes behind man-made dams, like Lake Mead, etc.
struggle4progress
(118,214 posts)http://www.kval.com/news/Eagle-Point-man-jailed-for-illegal-water-reservoirs-164206356.html
So he's already pleaded guilty twice before in prosecutions on this matter
Generic Other
(28,979 posts)And damn, if it falls on my property, you do not need to be getting all possessive about owning it.
Average rainfall: 122 inches per year.
So if the state thinks he is stealing the rain, let them figure out a way to keep it from trespassing on his property.
This is about the Federal government wanting to restrict farmers and ranchers' water use by diverting water to the endangered "suckerfish." They are dismantling damns, keeping their own reservoirs filled, and going after the ranchers' water by turning off pumps, wells, etc.
This is an issue of major importance in the PNW.
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)Ilsa
(61,690 posts)Generic Other
(28,979 posts)Saving rainwater is what the article said.
Water rights have always been an issue for farms and ranches in the West.
I was just mad that they act like they own the rain that falls on my land and could come after me for collecting it.
Go collect real payments from corporations that steal mineral and oil rights for a song and dance.
And don't take a rancher's water and sell it to Coca Cola or some other water bottling company.
randome
(34,845 posts)At least for not a good long time, I would imagine.
It isn't a 'ridiculous over-reach by the government' if he is depriving his neighbors of water because he wants to hoard it for his own use.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Precision and concision. That's the game.[/center][/font][hr]
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)The neighbour's feelings are left unaddressed. It also even states that he was originally granted the permits to build the reservoirs, but that the permits were later revoked for reasons unstated.
struggle4progress
(118,214 posts)to protect those rights against Gary Harrington's acts
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)the rancher is depriving others of rain water.
Range wars were fought over this kind of thing in the 19th century.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)WhiteTara
(29,692 posts)MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)struggle4progress
(118,214 posts)The State of Oregon convicted Mr. Harrington under a 1925 law that declared all water as public or state water. This is due to the prior appropriations law that creates priority water rights. This means the first person to obtain a water right on a stream is the last to be shut off in times of low stream flows. This prevents landowners from damming up the streams and rivers that cross their properties if there are downstream users such as cities and other water providers that have older water rights.
In 2007, Mr. Harrington entered a guilty plea for illegally damming water from the tributaries crossing his property. He received three years probation and was ordered to release the impounded water. This recent lawsuit filed by the State stems from his refusal to meet the conditions of his probation ...
http://www.watercache.com/blog/2012/09/rainwater-collection-leads-to-jail-sentence-how-news-headlines-get-it-wrong/
Orrex
(63,169 posts)Heh heh.
struggle4progress
(118,214 posts)Shankapotomus
(4,840 posts)The next reality tv show.
AngryAmish
(25,704 posts)But a lot of golf courses hooked up to municipal systems have very deep ponds to collect rainwater and save a few bucks.
Go Vols
(5,902 posts)struggle4progress
(118,214 posts)a local jury found him guilty
So the actual facts -- whatever they may be -- appear to have been resolved repeatedly in court against Gary Harrington
Recursion
(56,582 posts)He's basically (slowly) drying out wetlands.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]
Recursion
(56,582 posts)This case goes all over the place and seems to make both the left and right uncomfortable...