Forced C-Section

[HockeyMom]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2631088/Woman-suing-says-doctors-forced-C-section-against-perforated-b

My daugther just gave birth 2 days ago in NY. She was forced to take Pitocin against her will. The doctor (group practice) started yelling at her because she was was in "prolonged labor". FIVE HOURS is prolonged labor? WE expect 1 cm an hour dialation. She was only at 3 cms. so it was time for medicine to intervene after 5 hours.

Assembly line deliveries they want. It was a HORRIBLE delivery, and her son is now back in the hospital with complications.

If any woman can avoid it, delivery your babies at home, at least if you live in New York.

[MineralMan]

1. So, they did a C-section on her?

How was she forced to take Pitocin? Nobody has to take anything against their will. Your daughter was given it and then, after 5 hours of labor, they did a C-section. Is that correct? Your daughter had a C-section? Was your daughter the one in the Daily Mail story?

Were there any signs of distress for the infant? Was your daughter in any kind of physical distress? There's a lot we don't know here, really. Were you there in the hospital, or is your post based on descriptions from your daughter? I'm confused, here. Please don't be afraid to use as many words as you need to explain what happened with your daughter.

[laundry_queen]

2. I'm unclear as well, however

as someone who was also forced to take syntocinon (basically Pitocin here in Canada) against my will, it happens ALL THE TIME. Doctors constantly infantilize pregnant women and poo-poo their choices. The doctor who helped me to have a vbac told me I should've sued my first doctor (how many doctors advise you to sue another doctor?) because of what happened. Anyhow, yes, women in labor are coerced into agreeing to whatever the doctor wants all of the time. I think it's naïve for you to think it's easy to refuse certain procedures when you are in labor. Normally they just ignore you and do whatever they want.

[MineralMan]

8. All the more reason to have someone accompany you

through labor and birth. Someone who's not going through labor. I'm never comfortable with anyone I know going through any procedure without someone with them who has a power of attorney that covers situations where the patient can't effectively consent to things.

My wife does that with her mother. She doesn't have dementia, but can't remember a thing the doctor tells her, mostly because she doesn't understand the terminology. So, my wife accompanies her to all appointments and is with her anytime any decisions are going to be made. She'll carefully explain what the doctor is telling her mom, ask the necessary questions of the doctor or whoever, takes detailed notes, and makes sure my mother knows what is going on and what her choices are.

In my direct family, my sister is a nurse who was once head of nursing in a large hospital. She is there whenever my parents deal with doctors or are in the hospital. She was even there when I was in a coma after contracting viral encephalitis and probably saved my life by asking the right questions and not taking any bullshit answers from the hospital staff where I ended up.

People who may not be able to consent to things as a fully-informed person not under duress need to have a responsible person on hand who can help. That's my opinion.

[laundry_queen]

12. I had plenty of people with me

they all did the same thing...pat me on the head and tell me to listen to the doctor. It's absolutely ingrained in society that women listen to their doctor during labor. Unless you have a midwife or doula with you (and most doulas won't interfere with the doctor as per their regulating body) your family may not understand what procedures are going on - or they cave the minute the doctor says something like "this is what's best for baby" which they say often to manipulate you into agreeing to procedures. I've totally BTDT. That's great you have a nurse in the family to help out. I would say most laboring women should have something similar. Doctors can be unbelievably coercive to you and your family when you are in labor. You know how anti-choicers basically treat women as baby vessels? That same mindset is how women are treated in labor.

BTW, not all doctors are like that, obviously. I had a wonderful doctor for my 2nd and 3rd births who followed my wishes, was compassionate, caring and very knowledgeable. We had a few heated discussions about certain procedures (I won out with my research and he told me I could read medical research as well as he could and agreed with my assertions) but in the end, he was committed to helping me achieve the experience I wanted. The trick is to find a doctor who will walk the walk, as my first doctor told me he agreed with me but once I was in labor he just did whatever he wanted. Though I don't know how you can tell until you have been through it with them - it can be a total crapshoot.

[HockeyMom]

9. My daughter's doctor was away on vacation

She had never seen this group practice doctor before. You do need to really know your doctor, and he you. My doctor, who had delivered my breach baby, had also delivered all 4 of my SIL children. I suppose you could say he was our family doctor.

He was also not at the hospital when I was admitted but was delivering another baby somewhere else. Yes, I myself screamed at the hospital doctors while in labor. I told them you will do NOTHING to me until MY doctor gets here. Maybe since he was an older doctor, he might have had more clout at the hospital? I trusted him and not the hospital staff.

Sorry, don't tell me when you are labor you lose control of your mind. I didn't with 2 children, and a ruptured ectopic. You have every right to refuse medical treatment, and must stand up for yourself.

[laundry_queen]

16. I agree with your last sentence and I did.

I discussed it with my doctor before hand and said, in advance, that I refuse any and all artificial augmentation. When he said, while I was in labor, "we need to augment your labor" and started fiddling with my IV I said, "NO! I told you I didn't want this. NO, I don't want syntocinon! Please don't! NO." He completely ignored me. This is why my other doctor said I should've sued. ETA: I confronted my doctor afterwards, and said, "I had refused this before labor and during labor, why did you do it against my consent?" His response was, "I don't think you should be my patient anymore." So he knew he was in the wrong.

BTW, I agree, you don't lose control of your mind when you are in labor, and you should have every right to refuse medical procedures, but as I said in another post, it's ingrained in our culture that laboring women need to listen to their doctors for the good of the baby...even if studies show the procedure they are trying to force you into has no benefit for either you or the baby, you are told you are a horrible mother if you don't listen to the doctor. It's totally coercive.

[xmas74]

39. I was given cytotec to induce fourteen years ago.

As part of admitting they put in an IV, telling me it was for fluids only. Several hours later, with a nursing shift change, a nurse made a comment about how strong my contractions were even though I wasn't progressing. She said she always sees that whenever they double up pitocin and cytotec together. Until that moment I had no clue I was on pitocin.


Going in for my c-section I stated that I still wanted to follow my birth plan, which included being allowed to wear my glasses and not being restrained. As soon as my meds started kicking in they immediately restrained me, from ankles to wrists to forehead (as much as I remember) and took away my glasses. In my birth plan I stated I wanted to see my baby immediately. Instead, they held her up far enough away that I couldn't focus without my glasses. I didn't actually "see" her for several hours, long after I'd left recovery.

I was alone the first day of labor and I was alone during the c-section. They took advantage of both situations.

[elleng]

4. Good questions, MM.

[elleng]

3. or if you don't know your OB/GYN,

have an established relationship, and haven't discussed the issues that can be expected to arise regularly.

This is AWFUL, and I can't imagine it happening to me, or my daughters, one of whom delivered in December, and the other who is due to deliver in July.

[frazzled]

6. Yes, important to ask all these questions beforehand

These are common situations that are treated differently by different doctors/practices. My daughter-in-law gave birth a month ago (first grandchild!) and she went over all these situations with the doctors in her practice in advance. E.g., if her water broke, what was the policy on giving pitocin (there is a risk of infection if labor does not progress within a certain amount of time, but 5 hours is too little, unless there are other signs of distress or infection).

She chose a practice that included choosing a midwife. She saw the OB/GYN (actually, her main one, and then all the other doctors in the practice, in case one it was necessary for one of the others to attend her birth), but chose to deliver with a midwife connected with the practice. If a medical issue arose, the OB/GYN would come immediately. The birth took place at the city's most elite women's hospital, and she was lucky to be able to stay with the trusted midwife throughout--and all done on Obamacare insurance!!

On the other hand, natural birth can go too far. My story goes back more than 30 years ago. My own OB was out of town on the day I delivered (of course), and I had a doctor he'd arranged to cover his cases. This doctor was extremely committed to natural childbirth, which I thought was great. However, there were complications: the cord wrapped around the neck twice, heart rate kept decelerating severely and they kept pushing the baby back up as I was pushing her out. It went on forever until, finally, he said it was getting very dangerous and we had to do a forceps delivery. It all seemed fine afterward (though traumatic), but my own doctor later said he'd read the reports and NEVER would have allowed a vaginal birth under those conditions. My daughter ended up with a severe hearing impairment, and I will always wonder if that would not have happened had I had the emergency C-section. Well, no good wondering. But I admire today's mothers who ask all these questions in advance.

[elleng]

7. I and my daughters met/have met the docs in the practices,

fortunately, and have as many things worked out as possible. As it happened, my daughter who delivered in December needed the assistance of forceps, as baby's position was difficult at the end. Fortunately the doc knew what he was doing.

SO SORRY about your experience. My 2 deliveries were 'natural,' and rather easy, was prepared to ask for epidural, and would certainly have deferred to docs expertise at the 11th hour.

[laundry_queen]

17. Just a comment on your experience

first of all, I'm sorry that sounds extremely traumatic. But I want to clear up one misconception, and that is that when a doctor decides to do an emergency C-section that women suddenly get wheeled down the hall to the OR and are getting cut open within a few minutes. That almost never happens. Once the decision for my C-section was made, it took well over an hour to get everything together. True, it was a small remote hospital, but even in major centers (in my discussions with other women with true 'emergency' C-sections) you'll be lucky to be operated on within 20 minutes. If your baby was that close to being born that the doctor could touch the head, a C-section probably wouldn't have happened in time anyway. It almost never happens like they show it on TV.

[frazzled]

24. Yes, I'm sure you're right

I think the issue in my case was that my regular doctor would have made the decision much earlier (before the six hours of pushing after 18 hours of labor) to go the C-section route. Nobody wants to have a C-section,* but (as I advised my daughter-in-law), when the health of the baby is at stake, you need to be prepared for it, and that it may be the best decision. The birth aspect of having a child seems all important, but it is really only a nano-second in the whole experience of having and raising a child.

What's important is that you have a happy, healthy baby (and despite the hearing issue with my daughter, she was indeed a happy and healthy baby who has grown into an accomplished woman).

* Apparently, today's busy mothers apparent DO want to have C-sections, and make appointments for the day they wish to have their baby. To me, that's weird. But I try not to judge. Everybody has their own views. Again, it's the healthy, happy baby that counts. It doesn't really matter how that baby gets there.

[laundry_queen]

27. Oh yeah

I agree with a lot of what you say. And now that I have some distance from my birthing experiences (my oldest is nearly 17 *sob*), I can concur that is really is only the blink of an eye in a child's life and having your child here, alive and healthy is what really matters.

However, I did have PTSD after my first daughter's birth and I used to be really upset when people would invalidate my experience by telling me it didn't matter in the long term because my baby was healthy, as if she was healthy because of the experience instead of despite it, you know? I think we can have both - a good experience AND healthy babies. And I always used to think, when told that, "Do they think I would choose my experience over my baby?" Of course I wouldn't so the very comment I found insulting. All women want healthy babies. That's a given. I do think that a women's experience does matter though, too. It can have a huge impact on things like post partum depression and breastfeeding rates. I think there needs to be a different approach to maternal care.

As for making appointments for a baby - totally BTDT. My last 2 babies were scheduled C-sections. It WAS weird. (I didn't WANT the C-sections by the way, it's just the way it turned out due to certain circumstances that would take quite awhile to write out...) But, it WAS much better than 30 hours of labor and THEN a C-section! I think that's why women choose it - they are terrified of going through all the pain only to end up with a C-section anyway. And it WAS nice to plan it so I could have someone look after my other kids. After my wide variety of experiences, I try not to judge anymore too...but when I hear of someone scheduling a C-section 3 wks before their due date along with a 'mommy tuck' so they can avoid stretch marks...well....(rumors about celebrities, LOL).

[CTyankee]

36. With her second baby, my daughter very much wanted an epidural (which she had wanted with her

first but the doc said "too late!!) She made her (new) OB agree that she would get one. She arrived at the hospital in really active labor and the doc said "But you'll deliver in 45 minutes!. She said "You PROMISED!" and he gave her the epidural. She was simply not going to go through another labor like her first one. She was at Brigham and Women's Hospital in Boston...

[CTyankee]

33. July! Wow, time flies!

You must be over the moon!

[elleng]

34. Yes yank,

quite excited! 2 months from Tuesday, and Baby Shower June 7!

[CTyankee]

35. Can't wait to hear about the blessed event...keep me posted...

[elleng]

37. You'll certainly be informed, yank!

[CTyankee]

42. Thanks! Best of luck and great good wishes to you and daughter!

[elleng]

5. 'Hospital records show

that the cesarean section was approved by the hospital's legal department and Dr James J Ducey, the director of maternal and fetal medicine.

'The woman has decisional capacity. I have decided to override her refusal to have a c-section,' he wrote in her case notes.'

'approved by the hospital's legal department' NOT good (and I'm a lawyer!!!)

[Squinch]

23. OMG!!! He should be kicked out of the profession.

[elleng]

32. Depending on his advice.

[sufrommich]

10. That article read like a horror story. If even 1/2 of that is

true,they're in a world of trouble.On top of everything,they perforated her bladder.

[laundry_queen]

18. First...love your sig

second...I've had 3 C-sections and I cannot imagine how horrible it would be if that happened. Even having a normal C-section, your bladder is moved around and traumatized...it takes a while to recover from that, but to have it perforated too? ugh! ouch!

[sufrommich]

19. One of my best friends has 2 C sections. We're both in

our 50s now but I remember her recovery and being thankful I was able to deliver the old fashioned way. Honestly,I had no idea the was a movement to try to deliver naturally after having c-sections until I read this article. When my friend had her second child it was absolutely verboten to even think of trying that,one c-section meant future c-sections,no questions asked.

[laundry_queen]

20. Yeah, that was the old adage

the whole VBAC thing started in the late 80's early 90's. I had my VBAC in 2000, after my first C-section (then had 2 scheduled C-sections - long story). There is seriously NO comparison in recovery. None. With my C-sections I was sent home 4 days later, in great pain, hardly able to walk. With my VBAC I walked out of the hospital, carrying my baby, 12 hours later. 24 hours after that, I was going for a walk around the block with my husband and kids. It was SO amazing, LOL. Sadly, many doctors and hospitals are forbidding VBACs once again...litigation issues.

[sufrommich]

22. That's interesting that you've experienced both. I will

say this,before c-sections were common,there were some pretty bad horror stories out there.Two months before I had my son,another friend went through 16 freaking hours of labor,the vast majority of it very intense labor.When I went to see her,her very first words to me were " I'll never do that again",I was so terrified I wished my baby would never come out!
My mom,who is now 76, had my brother in 1959 and he was breech,they literally had to break her tail bone to get him out. I guess we should be thankful for modern techniques in certain situations.

[laundry_queen]

25. My first

was probably one of the worst horror stories I've heard...30 hours of labor with a posterior baby (back labor!) THEN a C-section under a general anesthetic (because they couldn't get the spinal going after 11 pokes). The vast majority of my was intense, with the last 4 hours I don't even remember - as previously mentioned, I was augmented against my will and the last 4 hours were just one long multiple peaking contraction with zero breaks. Afterwards, I read that what happened to me is very dangerous. I was also in a hospital that didn't have epidurals, so I was given narcotics (which did nothing, I kept asking when they were going to work and was told they should've already taken effect. Um, no.) It wasn't until my 2nd labor - which was by a lot of standards, also crappy but compared to my first it was a breeze - I realized how much those breaks between contractions help. I had a 17 hour labor with my 2nd and a vacuum extraction at the end. And I was thrilled, LOL.

My grandmother also had a few horror stories - being under 5' and birthing 10 pound babies. Sadly, after having a C-section, and also being someone who has broken a tailbone, I'd take that over a C-section any day. C-sections are absolutely invaluable in certain circumstances (placenta previa, transverse babies, true cephalo-pelvic disproportion) but are WAY WAY overdone now-a-days. The risks of a major surgery like a C-section are actually quite large compared with a vaginal birth - even a complicated vaginal birth. Doctors do them now because as the saying goes, you are more likely to be sued for the C-section you don't do, not the one you DO do. However, that didn't hold true for the doctor in the article. It's been theorized that the reason the maternal death rate is starting to go up again is too many C-sections and their complications.

Anyway, I could go on for hours on this. I studied it intensely (read: was obsessed) with this stuff for the better part of a decade.

[sufrommich]

26. Holy shit! That second pregnancy was a sheer act of

bravery.I'll admit that if my first pregnancy would have been like yours there would be no chance of a second one.

[laundry_queen]

28. HAHA. It would be an understatement to say I love babies.

It was always worth it in the end for me. I always wanted lots of kids (I have 4 but may have had more had my marriage worked out). I'm one of those weird people obsessed with babies - have been since I was a toddler myself. I think I may have some insight into Michelle Duggar's psyche, LMAO.

[SidDithers]

11. Medical "stories" from the Daily Mail...

Sid

[HockeyMom]

13. It was on other sites too

including local NY news. I posted the one from the Daily Mail because it was the most detailed of all of them.

[MineralMan]

15. Was the person in the story your daughter?

That's not clear.

[HockeyMom]

29. No

I just used my daughter's experience in labor 2 days ago to show how they will force things on you. She was on IV and they just put the Pitcoin in with her IV against her wishes.

[sufrommich]

14. The N.Y. Times has an article about her too.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/17/nyregion/mother-accuses-doctors-of-forcing-a-c-section-and-files-suit.html?_r=0

[boston bean]

21. wel, I don't think I'd go that far!

[HockeyMom]

30. Not sue for even a perforated bladder?

That alone would be lawsuit time besides the unwanted C-Section.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

31. WARNING for Americans: it's in the Daily Mail, so very likely to be untrue or distorted.

If you doubt me, go to the UK forum, and ask any Brit there about the DM.

[xmas74]

40. There is a link upthread from another source.

OP stated she used the DM link because it was the most detailed.

[postulater]

38. A doctor for a delivery? Were they expecting complications?

If not then where was the Certified Nurse Midwife? Their stats are much better for normal deliveries.

[xmas74]

41. Maybe the doctor was on call for the practice

and a midwife was busy elsewhere. Or maybe the practice doesn't employ midwives-some don't.