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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsElliot Rodger’s fatal menace: How toxic male entitlement devalues women’s and men’s lives
SALON
Sunday, May 25, 2014 09:13 AM EDT
Elliot Rodgers fatal menace: How toxic male entitlement devalues womens and mens lives
In moments after unspeakable tragedy we must not rush to conclusions. But here's one thing we already know too well
by Katie Mcdonough
We dont yet know much about the six innocent women and men who were killed in Isla Vista, California late Friday night, but we have come to know a few things about the man who is alleged to have murdered them. Hours before he is believed to have fatally stabbed and shot six people and wounded 13 others in that coastal college town, Elliot Rodger filmed a video of himself palm trees behind him, the glow of an orange sun highlighting his young face and vowed to get revenge against humanity.
Theres a lot more in the video, and the 140-page manifesto he left in his apartment. Rodger felt victimized by women, whom he appeared to desire and loathe simultaneously. He expressed anger and resentment toward other men, often because of their relationships with women. He seemed to be a profoundly troubled, profoundly lonely young man. According to a statement from the Rodger familys attorney, he was receiving care from mental health professionals after his parents were alarmed by his Internet footprint a series of YouTube videos and mens rights chat groups where he expressed his violent views about women, men and himself.
Its hard to say what any of this actually tells us. Maybe nothing. I wont pretend to know. What role did Rodgers misogyny play in this tragedy? And what about his apparent struggle with mental illness that big, blanket term we never talk about except to throw it around as if it explains why someone would murder six people? And what about guns? What of our cowardice the cowardice of our elected officials when it comes to regulating deadly weapons so that we stand a better chance of keeping them out of the hands of men like Elliot Rodger? What about these things? As a friend and I discussed earlier while trying to grapple with the tragedy as we learned each new chilling detail, all of these things matter, but none seem sufficient to explain what happened. They couldnt possibly, and yet theyre all we have.
It would be irresponsible to lay this violence at the feet of the mens rights activists with whom Rodger seemed to find support for his rage. Rodger is alleged to have murdered six women and men. No amount of Internet vitriol no unfulfilled threats of violence can equal that. But it also denies reality to pretend that Rodgers sense of masculine entitlement and views about women didnt matter or somehow existed in a vacuum. The horror of Rodgers alleged crimes is unique, but the distorted way he understood himself as a man and the violence with which he discussed women the bleak and dehumanizing way he judged them is not. Just as we examine our culture of guns once again in the wake of yet another mass shooting, we must also examine our culture of misogyny and toxic masculinity, which devalues both womens and mens lives and worth, and inflicts real and daily harm. We must examine the dangerous normative values that treat women as less than human, and that make them according to Elliot Rodger deserving of death....
MORE at link posted above.
Chakab
(1,727 posts)That kid was mentally ill. There is no looming threat of dateless "nice guys" who are on the verge gruesome killing sprees because their innate misogyny tells them that they're owed sex from women.
Most of the guys that people have been demonizing for the past few days sit around feeling sorry for themselves and watching a lot of porn.
The real issue here is the fact that it's so easy for people to acquire firearms in the US.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)He was off his rocker, consumed with rage, and most likely, at the root, it was himself he was enraged at, projecting like "mad".
Nothing will get you in more trouble quicker than anger and self-pity.
sendero
(28,552 posts)... he killed half his victims with a knife.
Tsiyu
(18,186 posts)HIs extremely violent fantasies about exacting revenge led him to purchase those firearms. We cannot discount that motivation, because even without a firearm, he would have found a way to kill.
He suffered from rages all his life over others having what he did not have. Over having to share. Over discovering he was not a "special snowflake."
He called himself an outcast, felt judged by society, and yet he judged everyone he came in contact with as slobs, low-lifes, brutes, and he was extremely racist.
He also claimed he was a "magnificent gentleman" and that he was "destined for greatness." But gentlemen do not throw hot coffee or cold drinks on people simply because those people are having a good time. Gentlemen do not get mad at two women standing at a bus stop for not returning his hello. Gentlemen do not do a U-turn so they can heave a drink at these two women.
Gentlemen understand restraint, and that there will always be someone who gets/has more than you, and that no woman must be compelled to respond to you or face your rage.
For some reason, some males believe that women are the "choosers." There are plenty of lonely women, watching others have a good time, who don't get chosen either. But he viewed humans as property.
He was obsessed with having a "hot blond" because to him, that was acceptable property in the eyes of others. He viewed women as things, objects, 2-dimensional beings.
He says in his manifesto he wanted to become ruler of the world and then to outlaw sex for everyone. If he couldn't have sex, why should all the rest of the world, who didn't deserve such joy, get to have sex? he had sick fantasies of peeling people's skin off because of his jealousy
His warped attitude led to the gun purchases and the slaughter. To discount that is to be in complete denial.
Rhinodawg
(2,219 posts)outward and then felt empowered with a gun....and 400 rounds.
"He says in his manifesto he wanted to become ruler of the world and then to outlaw sex for everyone."
...and here you are taking that delusional drivel seriously.
I'm speaking to his motivation, trying to understand it. Millions of people have guns, millions have unfulfilled sex lives, but what pushes someone over the edge into massacre?
Just like illness - you can stop a cough with meds, but if you don't find out what's causing the cough, it could kill you.
Actually, he has provided us with a great gift by leaving behind his manifesto.
I often wondered what made conservatives so controlling when it comes to sex.
Rodger's writing gives us a lot of clues as to how someone becomes so obsessed with other people's sex lives that they long to control them through their sex lives. It really explained a lot of the rightwing powerful and their obsession with female sexuality.
My post is about motivation.
treestar
(82,383 posts)He had a BMW - at 22 a lot of people don't even own their own car. It's like he was blind to people who did not have what he had.
Tsiyu
(18,186 posts)How many college kids have $5000 bank accounts and designer clothes?
His writing is so nuts.
"The first strike against women will be to quarantine them in concentration camps. At these camps, the vast majority of women will be starved to death."
He is relating his fantasy about being the supreme ruler in a world where sex is outlawed because nobody on earth deserves the pleasure sex brings. Reminds me of rightwingers. Of course, he will allow some to live for breeding purposes....they will be inseminated until depravity is "bred out of them."
And men, not knowing of female's existence ( because he has them all locked up ) will stop wanting sex.
Guess he never heard of men wanting sex with anyone but women.
he was definitely myopic and narcissistic.
LTR
(13,227 posts)Some of the male-bashing stuff I come across is just as bad as the female-bashing stuff.
Chakab
(1,727 posts)from the incessant demonization of men with below average penises.
SharonAnn
(13,772 posts)over his father's property and assets than his father's wife.
Extreme patriarchal, primo-geniture, racist, sexist, classist perceptions.
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)But they seem to be good at that. Not saying MRA aren't a rotten bunch, but they aren't the illuminati conspiracy they are being drawn to be.
SaltyBro
(198 posts)He felt entitled to women due to his being a white person.
Rhinodawg
(2,219 posts)and now " toxic male entitlement devalues women" ??
Really?
Tsiyu
(18,186 posts)"I concluded that women were flawed. There is something mentally wrong with the way their brains are wired, as if they haven't evolved from animal-like thinking. They are incapable of reasoning or thinking rationally. They are like animals, completely controlled by their primal depraved emotions and impulses. that is why they are attracted to barbaric, wild, beast-like men. They are beasts themselves. Beasts should not be able to have any rights in a civilized society. If their wickedness is not contained, the whole of society will be held back from advancement to a more civilized state. Women should not have the right to choose who to mate with.That choice should be made for them by civilized men of intelligence.
snip
"I am one of the few people on this earth with the intelligence to see this. I am like a god, and my purpose is to exact ultimate Retribution on all of the impurities I see in this world."
Bold mine
Laelth
(32,017 posts)That's it, in a nutshell. Understand that dynamic, and a lot of human, male behavior will become clear.
-Laelth
boston bean
(36,221 posts)I'm not so sure it is to you though. Your post seems to mean this is acceptable behavior? ie Loathing women? I can see not liking a particular woman, but "loathing women"? Come one, there is no justification in the biological body or brain of men for that.
Laelth
(32,017 posts)It may not be "socially acceptable" in your world to have a love/hate relationship with men, but I am pretty certain that a lot of men have a love/hate relationship with women, and whether that's "socially acceptable" is entirely beside the point. We will be better off when we accept one another for what we are (rather than trying to force one another to be things we are not).
Just a few examples from a quick Google search:
Do you call those "socially acceptable"? Personally, I don't care whether they are socially acceptable or not. I think they reflect something important that it is dangerous for us to ignore.
-Laelth
boston bean
(36,221 posts)In your world maybe. Not in mine. I won't ever accept that. And my not accepting it is not the cause of the problem.
Laelth
(32,017 posts)-Laelth
Laelth
(32,017 posts)That, in truth, I don't think women hate men, and I don't think men hate women, either.
From my experience (and it's a male experience), men hate themselves precisely because they love and desire women. Desiring and needing women makes us weak, easily manipulated, terror-stricken (sometimes), vulnerable, and occasionally pathetic. It's not that we hate women. It's that we love and desire them, and we hate that perceived weakness in ourselves. Many of us come to the conclusion that we'd be much better off if we did not desire women, but most of us can't help it. It seems to be instinctual. Testosterone is an evil master.
Ultimately, though, this is all self-loathing, not hatred of women. In part, this explains why most of us become better people as we age. Once those testosterone levels start to drop, people become much more calm, stable, sane, and reasonable ... or, so it appears to me.
Thanks for the response.
-Laelth
boston bean
(36,221 posts)we wouldn't have these problems would we?
But no, they have to hate women. Kill them, feel entitled to them. That isn't anything that is biological, it is a twisted ideology and sick thinking using biology as a crutch to act and think a certain way.
Laelth
(32,017 posts)What we see, instead, is tragedy resulting from people hating themselves. They scapegoat others because they can't face their own self-hatred (too much cognitive dissonance), and the results are tragic, but, once again, you and I are speaking at cross-purposes. My purpose is to understand so that I can craft a working solution. Yours seems to be to educate and condemn (i.e. create social pressure), because it appears you already have a firm opinion on the nature of the problem and the proper solution. I don't share your confidence. I am looking for answers that will be more descriptive and strategies that will be more effective.
I don't deny that education and condemnation are useful tools for shaping social norms and even government policy, but neither of those strategies will get more men to vote for Democrats. Too many men (and the women who love them) vote against their best interests, and that's what I am trying to change. That's also why I need different strategies than the ones you are comfortable with. Condemnation and education, from what I can tell, push many people into the waiting arms of organizations aligned with the Republican Party (i.e. the masculinist NRA and patriarchal fundamentalist Christianity). It's time for new strategies.
-Laelth
Rhinodawg
(2,219 posts)Laelth
(32,017 posts)But to be safe, I prefer to take the word "hate" out of the equation. Accusing people of hate causes instant defensiveness, and I don't think that's useful in promoting dialogue.
-Laelth
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)that seems to be where you bottom line it. love and desire.
doesnt seem any different than women. love and desire.
yet... you post.
what does testosterone have to do with shit? love and desire. men and women love and desire.
now, i get that you say that because men love and desire they get pissed. and that certainly makes sense. first thing that really makes sense it the stupid of this. i can get that. but... men being pissed cause they love and desire really has nothing to do with testosterone. women love and desire equally.
i think men need to fall less in love with the magical, ever awesome testosterone.
tell me. how often are we glorifying and praising, bowing down and making estrogen our... god and savior?
all the time we are going on and on and on and on about the awesome testosterone.
yet... women, society none of us seem to feel the need to do the same with womens hormones. why?
maybe if we address these issues, honestly. we may get to some real shit.
Shankapotomus
(4,840 posts)I think happiness can be found by ourselves. We don't really need anyone for it. The problem is the shaming of those who are alone by those who think happiness is only found in other people. I think people can handle being alone if that's the way the dice rolls. It's the negativity society attaches to being alone they can't handle on top of it. It's the negativity and shame that compels some to feel unhappy alone and seek to rectify it by seeking partnerships they otherwise might not seek so desperately.
A lot of this wanting a partner out there is not based on real attraction or innate drives but wanting to desperately escape the negativity society associates and reigns down on single people.
Laelth
(32,017 posts)I think humans are social and sexual animals. I think we all want touch, love, affection, communication, and sex. Of course, people can live healthy, happy, and productive lives without a partner, but I think we're all healthier and happier when we have a partner (and numerous scientific studies support this belief).
I have no desire to shame people who are alone, and I think it is wrong to do so, but I think it is both unhealthy and unwise to pretend that people are not both social and sexual.
-Laelth