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theHandpuppet

(19,964 posts)
Mon May 26, 2014, 10:47 AM May 2014

Elliot Rodger’s fatal menace: How toxic male entitlement devalues women’s and men’s lives

SALON
Sunday, May 25, 2014 09:13 AM EDT
Elliot Rodger’s fatal menace: How toxic male entitlement devalues women’s and men’s lives
In moments after unspeakable tragedy we must not rush to conclusions. But here's one thing we already know too well
by Katie Mcdonough

We don’t yet know much about the six innocent women and men who were killed in Isla Vista, California late Friday night, but we have come to know a few things about the man who is alleged to have murdered them. Hours before he is believed to have fatally stabbed and shot six people and wounded 13 others in that coastal college town, Elliot Rodger filmed a video of himself — palm trees behind him, the glow of an orange sun highlighting his young face — and vowed to get “revenge against humanity.”

There’s a lot more in the video, and the 140-page “manifesto” he left in his apartment. Rodger felt victimized by women, whom he appeared to desire and loathe simultaneously. He expressed anger and resentment toward other men, often because of their relationships with women. He seemed to be a profoundly troubled, profoundly lonely young man. According to a statement from the Rodger family’s attorney, he was receiving care from mental health professionals after his parents were alarmed by his Internet footprint — a series of YouTube videos and men’s rights chat groups where he expressed his violent views about women, men and himself.

It’s hard to say what any of this actually tells us. Maybe nothing. I won’t pretend to know. What role did Rodger’s misogyny play in this tragedy? And what about his apparent struggle with mental illness — that big, blanket term we never talk about except to throw it around as if it explains why someone would murder six people? And what about guns? What of our cowardice — the cowardice of our elected officials — when it comes to regulating deadly weapons so that we stand a better chance of keeping them out of the hands of men like Elliot Rodger? What about these things? As a friend and I discussed earlier while trying to grapple with the tragedy as we learned each new chilling detail, all of these things matter, but none seem sufficient to explain what happened. They couldn’t possibly, and yet they’re all we have.

It would be irresponsible to lay this violence at the feet of the men’s rights activists with whom Rodger seemed to find support for his rage. Rodger is alleged to have murdered six women and men. No amount of Internet vitriol — no unfulfilled threats of violence — can equal that. But it also denies reality to pretend that Rodger’s sense of masculine entitlement and views about women didn’t matter or somehow existed in a vacuum. The horror of Rodger’s alleged crimes is unique, but the distorted way he understood himself as a man and the violence with which he discussed women — the bleak and dehumanizing way he judged them — is not. Just as we examine our culture of guns once again in the wake of yet another mass shooting, we must also examine our culture of misogyny and toxic masculinity, which devalues both women’s and men’s lives and worth, and inflicts real and daily harm. We must examine the dangerous normative values that treat women as less than human, and that make them — according to Elliot Rodger — deserving of death....

MORE at link posted above.

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Elliot Rodger’s fatal menace: How toxic male entitlement devalues women’s and men’s lives (Original Post) theHandpuppet May 2014 OP
Okay. This stuff is so far over the top that it's become farcical. Chakab May 2014 #1
+1. It's like they take his rant seriously. bemildred May 2014 #3
And knives.. sendero May 2014 #4
There has to be something to motivate using the firearm to kill Tsiyu May 2014 #6
He turned his inward rage.... Rhinodawg May 2014 #7
Good grief. Chakab May 2014 #8
Huh? Tsiyu May 2014 #9
And he didn't recognize he had a lot that others don't have treestar May 2014 #14
He was totally oblivious to his privilege Tsiyu May 2014 #15
+1 - smartest thing I've read all day LTR May 2014 #10
The "nice guy" bashing that's been going on here is something else, but at least it's a change up Chakab May 2014 #13
He also was obsessed with his perceived entitlements as the "Eldest son" who should have more rights SharonAnn May 2014 #20
Agree, by saying the MRA is a real, serious, threat, they devalue their own cause. Katashi_itto May 2014 #27
His White Privilege had more to do with it than anything. SaltyBro May 2014 #2
One crazy idiot Rhinodawg May 2014 #5
This from his "manifesto" Tsiyu May 2014 #11
"women, whom he appeared to desire and loathe simultaneously" Laelth May 2014 #12
Believe me it's frickin clear as a bell to me. boston bean May 2014 #16
I am less concerned with what is "socially acceptable" than you are. Laelth May 2014 #17
Really, one must just accept woman hating, misogyny, loathing of women? boston bean May 2014 #18
Please see my post below. n/t Laelth May 2014 #21
Let me also add ... Laelth May 2014 #19
Hell, if these men that you are speaking of just hated themselves boston bean May 2014 #22
That doesn't follow in my mind. Laelth May 2014 #25
Maybe you could say "a very small micro-percentage" ? Rhinodawg May 2014 #23
That would be more accurate, certainly. Laelth May 2014 #24
love and desire seabeyond May 2014 #26
I don't think that's the problem Shankapotomus May 2014 #28
I must disagree. Laelth May 2014 #29
 

Chakab

(1,727 posts)
1. Okay. This stuff is so far over the top that it's become farcical.
Mon May 26, 2014, 10:53 AM
May 2014

That kid was mentally ill. There is no looming threat of dateless "nice guys" who are on the verge gruesome killing sprees because their innate misogyny tells them that they're owed sex from women.

Most of the guys that people have been demonizing for the past few days sit around feeling sorry for themselves and watching a lot of porn.

The real issue here is the fact that it's so easy for people to acquire firearms in the US.

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
3. +1. It's like they take his rant seriously.
Mon May 26, 2014, 10:58 AM
May 2014

He was off his rocker, consumed with rage, and most likely, at the root, it was himself he was enraged at, projecting like "mad".

Nothing will get you in more trouble quicker than anger and self-pity.

Tsiyu

(18,186 posts)
6. There has to be something to motivate using the firearm to kill
Mon May 26, 2014, 11:06 AM
May 2014


HIs extremely violent fantasies about exacting revenge led him to purchase those firearms. We cannot discount that motivation, because even without a firearm, he would have found a way to kill.

He suffered from rages all his life over others having what he did not have. Over having to share. Over discovering he was not a "special snowflake."

He called himself an outcast, felt judged by society, and yet he judged everyone he came in contact with as slobs, low-lifes, brutes, and he was extremely racist.

He also claimed he was a "magnificent gentleman" and that he was "destined for greatness." But gentlemen do not throw hot coffee or cold drinks on people simply because those people are having a good time. Gentlemen do not get mad at two women standing at a bus stop for not returning his hello. Gentlemen do not do a U-turn so they can heave a drink at these two women.

Gentlemen understand restraint, and that there will always be someone who gets/has more than you, and that no woman must be compelled to respond to you or face your rage.

For some reason, some males believe that women are the "choosers." There are plenty of lonely women, watching others have a good time, who don't get chosen either. But he viewed humans as property.

He was obsessed with having a "hot blond" because to him, that was acceptable property in the eyes of others. He viewed women as things, objects, 2-dimensional beings.

He says in his manifesto he wanted to become ruler of the world and then to outlaw sex for everyone. If he couldn't have sex, why should all the rest of the world, who didn't deserve such joy, get to have sex? he had sick fantasies of peeling people's skin off because of his jealousy

His warped attitude led to the gun purchases and the slaughter. To discount that is to be in complete denial.

 

Chakab

(1,727 posts)
8. Good grief.
Mon May 26, 2014, 11:19 AM
May 2014

"He says in his manifesto he wanted to become ruler of the world and then to outlaw sex for everyone."

...and here you are taking that delusional drivel seriously.

Tsiyu

(18,186 posts)
9. Huh?
Mon May 26, 2014, 11:51 AM
May 2014

I'm speaking to his motivation, trying to understand it. Millions of people have guns, millions have unfulfilled sex lives, but what pushes someone over the edge into massacre?

Just like illness - you can stop a cough with meds, but if you don't find out what's causing the cough, it could kill you.


Actually, he has provided us with a great gift by leaving behind his manifesto.

I often wondered what made conservatives so controlling when it comes to sex.

Rodger's writing gives us a lot of clues as to how someone becomes so obsessed with other people's sex lives that they long to control them through their sex lives. It really explained a lot of the rightwing powerful and their obsession with female sexuality.

My post is about motivation.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
14. And he didn't recognize he had a lot that others don't have
Mon May 26, 2014, 12:38 PM
May 2014

He had a BMW - at 22 a lot of people don't even own their own car. It's like he was blind to people who did not have what he had.

Tsiyu

(18,186 posts)
15. He was totally oblivious to his privilege
Mon May 26, 2014, 01:13 PM
May 2014

How many college kids have $5000 bank accounts and designer clothes?

His writing is so nuts.

"The first strike against women will be to quarantine them in concentration camps. At these camps, the vast majority of women will be starved to death."

He is relating his fantasy about being the supreme ruler in a world where sex is outlawed because nobody on earth deserves the pleasure sex brings. Reminds me of rightwingers. Of course, he will allow some to live for breeding purposes....they will be inseminated until depravity is "bred out of them."

And men, not knowing of female's existence ( because he has them all locked up ) will stop wanting sex.

Guess he never heard of men wanting sex with anyone but women.

he was definitely myopic and narcissistic.

LTR

(13,227 posts)
10. +1 - smartest thing I've read all day
Mon May 26, 2014, 12:09 PM
May 2014

Some of the male-bashing stuff I come across is just as bad as the female-bashing stuff.

 

Chakab

(1,727 posts)
13. The "nice guy" bashing that's been going on here is something else, but at least it's a change up
Mon May 26, 2014, 12:34 PM
May 2014

from the incessant demonization of men with below average penises.

SharonAnn

(13,772 posts)
20. He also was obsessed with his perceived entitlements as the "Eldest son" who should have more rights
Mon May 26, 2014, 01:48 PM
May 2014

over his father's property and assets than his father's wife.

Extreme patriarchal, primo-geniture, racist, sexist, classist perceptions.

 

Katashi_itto

(10,175 posts)
27. Agree, by saying the MRA is a real, serious, threat, they devalue their own cause.
Tue May 27, 2014, 08:19 AM
May 2014

But they seem to be good at that. Not saying MRA aren't a rotten bunch, but they aren't the illuminati conspiracy they are being drawn to be.

SaltyBro

(198 posts)
2. His White Privilege had more to do with it than anything.
Mon May 26, 2014, 10:57 AM
May 2014

He felt entitled to women due to his being a white person.

Tsiyu

(18,186 posts)
11. This from his "manifesto"
Mon May 26, 2014, 12:20 PM
May 2014

"I concluded that women were flawed. There is something mentally wrong with the way their brains are wired, as if they haven't evolved from animal-like thinking. They are incapable of reasoning or thinking rationally. They are like animals, completely controlled by their primal depraved emotions and impulses. that is why they are attracted to barbaric, wild, beast-like men. They are beasts themselves. Beasts should not be able to have any rights in a civilized society. If their wickedness is not contained, the whole of society will be held back from advancement to a more civilized state. Women should not have the right to choose who to mate with.That choice should be made for them by civilized men of intelligence.

snip

"I am one of the few people on this earth with the intelligence to see this. I am like a god, and my purpose is to exact ultimate Retribution on all of the impurities I see in this world."


Bold mine

Laelth

(32,017 posts)
12. "women, whom he appeared to desire and loathe simultaneously"
Mon May 26, 2014, 12:30 PM
May 2014

That's it, in a nutshell. Understand that dynamic, and a lot of human, male behavior will become clear.

-Laelth

boston bean

(36,221 posts)
16. Believe me it's frickin clear as a bell to me.
Mon May 26, 2014, 01:19 PM
May 2014

I'm not so sure it is to you though. Your post seems to mean this is acceptable behavior? ie Loathing women? I can see not liking a particular woman, but "loathing women"? Come one, there is no justification in the biological body or brain of men for that.

Laelth

(32,017 posts)
17. I am less concerned with what is "socially acceptable" than you are.
Mon May 26, 2014, 01:32 PM
May 2014

It may not be "socially acceptable" in your world to have a love/hate relationship with men, but I am pretty certain that a lot of men have a love/hate relationship with women, and whether that's "socially acceptable" is entirely beside the point. We will be better off when we accept one another for what we are (rather than trying to force one another to be things we are not).

Just a few examples from a quick Google search:







Do you call those "socially acceptable"? Personally, I don't care whether they are socially acceptable or not. I think they reflect something important that it is dangerous for us to ignore.

-Laelth



boston bean

(36,221 posts)
18. Really, one must just accept woman hating, misogyny, loathing of women?
Mon May 26, 2014, 01:34 PM
May 2014

In your world maybe. Not in mine. I won't ever accept that. And my not accepting it is not the cause of the problem.

Laelth

(32,017 posts)
19. Let me also add ...
Mon May 26, 2014, 01:47 PM
May 2014

That, in truth, I don't think women hate men, and I don't think men hate women, either.

From my experience (and it's a male experience), men hate themselves precisely because they love and desire women. Desiring and needing women makes us weak, easily manipulated, terror-stricken (sometimes), vulnerable, and occasionally pathetic. It's not that we hate women. It's that we love and desire them, and we hate that perceived weakness in ourselves. Many of us come to the conclusion that we'd be much better off if we did not desire women, but most of us can't help it. It seems to be instinctual. Testosterone is an evil master.

Ultimately, though, this is all self-loathing, not hatred of women. In part, this explains why most of us become better people as we age. Once those testosterone levels start to drop, people become much more calm, stable, sane, and reasonable ... or, so it appears to me.

Thanks for the response.

-Laelth

boston bean

(36,221 posts)
22. Hell, if these men that you are speaking of just hated themselves
Mon May 26, 2014, 01:51 PM
May 2014

we wouldn't have these problems would we?

But no, they have to hate women. Kill them, feel entitled to them. That isn't anything that is biological, it is a twisted ideology and sick thinking using biology as a crutch to act and think a certain way.

Laelth

(32,017 posts)
25. That doesn't follow in my mind.
Tue May 27, 2014, 07:48 AM
May 2014

What we see, instead, is tragedy resulting from people hating themselves. They scapegoat others because they can't face their own self-hatred (too much cognitive dissonance), and the results are tragic, but, once again, you and I are speaking at cross-purposes. My purpose is to understand so that I can craft a working solution. Yours seems to be to educate and condemn (i.e. create social pressure), because it appears you already have a firm opinion on the nature of the problem and the proper solution. I don't share your confidence. I am looking for answers that will be more descriptive and strategies that will be more effective.

I don't deny that education and condemnation are useful tools for shaping social norms and even government policy, but neither of those strategies will get more men to vote for Democrats. Too many men (and the women who love them) vote against their best interests, and that's what I am trying to change. That's also why I need different strategies than the ones you are comfortable with. Condemnation and education, from what I can tell, push many people into the waiting arms of organizations aligned with the Republican Party (i.e. the masculinist NRA and patriarchal fundamentalist Christianity). It's time for new strategies.

-Laelth

Laelth

(32,017 posts)
24. That would be more accurate, certainly.
Tue May 27, 2014, 07:43 AM
May 2014

But to be safe, I prefer to take the word "hate" out of the equation. Accusing people of hate causes instant defensiveness, and I don't think that's useful in promoting dialogue.

-Laelth

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
26. love and desire
Tue May 27, 2014, 08:04 AM
May 2014

that seems to be where you bottom line it. love and desire.

doesnt seem any different than women. love and desire.

yet... you post.

Testosterone is an evil master.



what does testosterone have to do with shit? love and desire. men and women love and desire.

now, i get that you say that because men love and desire they get pissed. and that certainly makes sense. first thing that really makes sense it the stupid of this. i can get that. but... men being pissed cause they love and desire really has nothing to do with testosterone. women love and desire equally.

i think men need to fall less in love with the magical, ever awesome testosterone.

tell me. how often are we glorifying and praising, bowing down and making estrogen our... god and savior?

all the time we are going on and on and on and on about the awesome testosterone.

yet... women, society none of us seem to feel the need to do the same with womens hormones. why?

maybe if we address these issues, honestly. we may get to some real shit.

Shankapotomus

(4,840 posts)
28. I don't think that's the problem
Tue May 27, 2014, 08:40 AM
May 2014

I think happiness can be found by ourselves. We don't really need anyone for it. The problem is the shaming of those who are alone by those who think happiness is only found in other people. I think people can handle being alone if that's the way the dice rolls. It's the negativity society attaches to being alone they can't handle on top of it. It's the negativity and shame that compels some to feel unhappy alone and seek to rectify it by seeking partnerships they otherwise might not seek so desperately.

A lot of this wanting a partner out there is not based on real attraction or innate drives but wanting to desperately escape the negativity society associates and reigns down on single people.

Laelth

(32,017 posts)
29. I must disagree.
Tue May 27, 2014, 09:22 AM
May 2014

I think humans are social and sexual animals. I think we all want touch, love, affection, communication, and sex. Of course, people can live healthy, happy, and productive lives without a partner, but I think we're all healthier and happier when we have a partner (and numerous scientific studies support this belief).

I have no desire to shame people who are alone, and I think it is wrong to do so, but I think it is both unhealthy and unwise to pretend that people are not both social and sexual.



-Laelth

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