I don't remember DUers being upset when Dr.Tiller's murder was

[sufrommich]

shown to have roots in the extremist anti choice movement,nor when the Knoxville church shooter was found to be an extremist right winger.Both killers were triggered by extremist viewpoints just as Elliot Rogers was and yet there is considerable pushback to making a connection to an extremist men's group with Rogers. Why?

[DURHAM D]

1. Elliot's body of work available for everyone to watch. nt

[SidDithers]

2. I think DUers were just as vocally upset over Tiller's murder...

Checking the archives, there are dozens and dozens of threads about Tiller and Scott Roeder.

Sid

[sufrommich]

3. I meant that DUers weren't upset that the extremist

anti choice movement was being blamed as a trigger for violence against abortion providers.

[NutmegYankee]

6. I imagine because basically none of us supported the anti-choice movement.

I can't say the same of DU for the the MRA movement.

[nomorenomore08]

25. Question is, why would they? What essential "rights" of theirs are under attack?

[NutmegYankee]

56. Not a clue.

[Jamastiene]

77. They think that if any nonwhite, nonmale, nonstraight people get rights,

they will lose theirs. I guess they think there are a limited number of rights to go around and in order to give other people rights, they will have to give up their rights. I'm not sure why they seem to think that, but many of them do.

Or maybe they just want to keep their boys only, no girls allowed club houses intact so they can sit around and talk about how much they hate girls, like 9 year old boys are known to do.

[nomorenomore08]

80. They are extraordinarily immature, self-centered people. That much is true. n/t

[Jamastiene]

76. I started to tell you that you had a shitty memory until

I caught on to what you were saying. You were not talking about those of us who want right wing extremists who commit horrible crimes to be counted as domestic terrorists by our government, right? In this case, you mean the other side who defends the horrific shit like what this Rodger guy did and wanted to do, right?

It's first thing in the morning and I'm NOT a morning person. Sorry if I initially misunderstood you. I'm soooo not a morning person.

[Squinch]

7. The point is that there seemed to be a mindset that was the clear cause of the murder and

no one on DU was upset when that mindset- extreme anti choice politics - was named.

In this case there is a mindset that is a clear cause of the murders - namely MRA ideals and a hatred of women - and there are tons of threads and comments here where posters are angered that this mindset is being named.

It's a double standard.

[Tsiyu]

35. ^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^

While I believe he had this hatred for women long before he hooked up with MRA and PUA groups, they validated his unhealthy misogyny and are culpable in feeding his hatred of females.


We are hypocrites if we impugn and impute other extremist groups but not this particular one...

[DonCoquixote]

57. I'll see that and raise you one

That mindset is one that many people, even on the left, sympathize with. It is hard to defend people that kill a doctor (especially a white male doctor) that was the only place offering abortions (which frankly are just as desired by the men, especially ones that do not want to pay child support.) It is another to shine the spotlight on the fact that a lot of angry suburban dudes feel their rightful throne was been usurped. These people see women and other minorities as means to their ends, yes they can get rich, be president, be whatever, as long as they remember to have dinner waiting for them when they get home.

[Squinch]

68. Yes. We have even seen posts that suggest that what Rodger did was understandable

because women had rejected him.

[myrna minx]

78. +1

[Jamastiene]

79. They don't want their meetings at their no girls allowed club houses

interrupted. They are acting like 9 and 10 year old little boys who hate girls and want to have a no girls allowed, boys only club. They think we are going to take their club house or make them allow girls in it and they are pitching a temper tantrum over it.

[Squinch]

81. And when someone says, "Hey, those boys in the other 'no girls allowed clubs'

are beating up girls with rocks," they put their fingers in their ears and say "Lalalalala. We don't want to talk about that."

[BanzaiBonnie]

4. The Pick up Artist groups and Men's rights groups

are the current big he-man woman haters clubs. They can fuel to those who have mental health problems into acting out. They pour gas on the fire and hold a fair measure of responsibility.

[intaglio]

54. There are a whole alphabet soup of sexist hate sites

Here's Rational Wiki's List

[treestar]

5. In fact there was a lot of assignment of blame to

the anti-choicers. We are often prone to it. Giffords' shooting we wanted to attribute to right wingers. Any violent act with the gunman leaving any evidence of a political leaning is used, just as the right will find a way to make it about Muslims if they possibly can. This is the same thing.

[TDale313]

11. Here's the question, though:

Was there a significant pushback here, on DU, against DUers who mentioned the connections Tiller's murderer had to those groups? Did post after post decry how that was unfair, a broad brush, blame of all anti choicers? That it was unfair politicization? In general, I'd say no. Perhaps elsewhere, in more conservative circles, but I don't remember that being a huge reaction here.

I am seeing that pushback against people who mention that Rodger had potential ties to and attitudes that mirrored some MRA groups.

Why the difference? Because, I would argue, there are more (or at least more vocal) DU members who are uncomfortable seeing MRA groups called out than there were members who were uncomfortable seeing anti-choice groups called out after the Tiller murder.

[redqueen]

12. Thanks for spelling it out. nt

[yuiyoshida]

15. +1

This

[treestar]

16. No, there wasn't

Some DUers are sympathetic to the MRA kind of position. I guess a person can be liberal on economic issues while thinking more like an MRA than a feminist. A little surprising. But I remember the women's movement started when, in the days of anti-war protest, women realized they were still supposed to cater to the men and made their own movement, because they realized the men were protesting the war and society but still OK with women being beneath them.

[Squinch]

8. Kick. The double standard is, in itself, an example of a systemic

misogyny.

[redqueen]

9. I think we all know why. nt

[Donald Ian Rankin]

10. What does "making a connection to" mean in this context?

I haven't been following the Rodgers case closely, but that's a phrase that sets alarm bells ringing for me.

[stranger81]

13. Uh, really?? IIRC, there was quite a lot of discussion here of extremist influences

on both incidents, especially with respect to Dr. Tiller's murder (may he rest in peace).

[vi5]

63. I think the original posts point was...

..that yes, in those cases we made the connection to how the reprehensible rhetoric led to violent action to specific intended targets. And there was little to no pushback among DUers to the attempts to draw those connections.

Yet there are Mens Rights people on DU and Elsewhere even in other "progressive" forums who are insisting that we don't draw the connection to the fact that this guy used the exact same rhetoric of male entitlement and victimhood that they do every day, and the anger and rage at women that they express every day.

[stranger81]

67. Got it -- my bad.

Agree with the OP.

[Skidmore]

14. Actually I remember quite a bit of discussion

and some of it involved the role Bill O'Reilly's rhetoric played in possibly fomenting this murder. What I don't recall is a contigent of people on DU actively pushing the NRA line and trying to make excuses for it.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

17. the answer is simple.....

Males do not like any talk about male violence.

The vast majority of violence in the world is and always has been acted out by men, but this fact must never be pointed out. Because acknowledging that fact would mean having to admit that there's something wrong with patriarchal values. It would ask men to reflect on their beliefs. It would mean men would have to develop empathy for those different than themselves.

[defacto7]

55. Point for point I agree to a degree... but

"Males do not like any talk about male violence."

I do. It's a blight on humanity.

"The vast majority of violence in the world is and always has been acted out by men"

True.

" but this fact must never be pointed out."

Well, we just did.

" It would ask men to reflect on their beliefs."

Actually I rely on facts.

"It would mean men would have to develop empathy for those different than themselves."

I do my best to develop empathy in everything I do.

Not trying to argue with your points that are universal, but not all men are what you are implying and you are implying all men. I don't know the figures on men's positions by study but I can say this one is very much an advocate for understanding and respect for all humans, all creatures, and the earth.

[scruboak]

82. "Not all men" is often an excuse

to do nothing.

"Not all Catholic priests" are pedophiles.
"Not all whites" are racist.
"Not all police" are murderers.

See the problem? Many people say "but, but, I personally don't do that, so why should I get the blame?"

Everyone is part of a group. Things are being done in your name all the time. If you don't try to stop those things, then you are part of the problem. It's not enough to sit there and say, "Not all men..." When you do that, you become part of the problem. If you truly believed in fighting the global culture of male violence, you would not be saying those words. Not even one little bit. You would be on the side saying, "This is an outrage and I will no longer stand for it."

[defacto7]

83. Global male violence is an outrage

Last edited Wed May 28, 2014, 04:34 PM - Edit history (1)

and I will no longer stand for it. I have been fighting that fight in my own little world for decades. I do agree.

Where I do not agree is that a simple fallacy cannot be corrected without a large contingency appearing in many venues to derail their own threads for the purpose of stopping voices from speaking, then projecting the derailment.

You say, "If you don't try to stop those things, then you are part of the problem." That can also be interpreted as trying to stop the the whiplash effect when an atrocity or unfair condition occurs by not falling silent when an affected side demands it. It's the common fallacy of "two wrongs make a right". They do not.

We must not alienate our supporters because part of them happen to be blank . If we cannot hold up humankind as a single commonality that we have, together, all of us, then we fail to understand the atrocities we share and will never be able to stop them for lack of unity and understanding.

[morningfog]

18. Your "memory" is irrelevant. Unless you have something to support it,

it is absolutely meaningless what you claim to remember, or even what you actually remember.

I would be quite surprised if the killer of Dr. Tiller's extremism was not thoroughly discussed here.

[LanternWaste]

66. And I would be quite surprised if Tiller's extremism was being rationalized as something other than

And I would be quite surprised if Tiller's extremism was being rationalized as something other than extremism.

[Squinch]

69. The OP is saying that it WAS thoroughly discussed here.

But no one discussing it was offended when the anti-choice rhetoric was named as a cause of that tragedy.

The point of the OP is that there is a double standard here: people here are now being offended that the MRA rhetoric which influenced Rodgers is being cited as a causal factor in his rampage.

Appropriately we have no trouble pointing out the destructive influence of anti-choice rhetoric, and no one here was suggesting that the murder of Tiller was kind of understandable.

Very inappropriately, there are those who don't want anyone pointing out the destructive influence of MRA rhetoric, and posters here ARE suggesting that Rodger's actions are kind of understandable because when women reject men sexually, it really hurts!

[morningfog]

71. I misunderstood the OP, and agree with you.

[Starry Messenger]

19. Good question.

[AverageJoe90]

20. It has to do with the "Gender Wars". That's why.

With all the unfortunate truth about some people who DO jump to poor conclusions, why is that?

To be truthful, most of this problem has been due, at least in part, by the machinations of a few on here who have sought to jump into every conversation they can find and interject on how every man is a potential rapist, etc.....and it does get tiring dealing with that kinda stuff.....and I mean no offense to anyone when I say this, but it does. Can't we discuss these REAL issues without going into fringe territory?

And yes, I do realize that there are a few malcontents on here who really are prejudiced against women. And that's not cool. But a lot of this edgy, super-radical stuff we've seen on here, hasn't been helping us, as a whole. I'm sorry.

[sufrommich]

24. Nobody is "going into fringe territory".

There's a lot of anti feminist shit that gets spewed here under the guise of disliking how it's said and who's saying it.There's nothing "edgy or super radical" about the feminists here either,most of what gets said here could come straight from the mouth of Gloria Steinam and is regularly discussed in feminist circles.Claiming that some don't want to talk about misogyny because they don't personally like some feminist on DU is jaw dropping childish shit.

[AverageJoe90]

28. "There's nothing "edgy or super radical" about the feminists...." *Most*, no.

I should know, by the way, as I'm one of them. But there's no denying that we DO have a few radicals on here. Anyone can see that.

There's a lot of anti feminist shit that gets spewed here under the guise of disliking how it's said and who's saying it.

That MAY be true with a few, I suppose. With a site this big, you're bound to have a few malcontents who say shit just to raise heckles.....but then again, we've also had a few people claiming that sexism, or even racism, of all things, are supposedly endemic on this site, so yes, it does go two ways, both with Caver-style trolls(or the occasional Men's Groupie), and those malcontents on the far and/or fringe left as well.

[nomorenomore08]

34. To be honest, I don't think you know what "fringe territory" is.

I certainly don't agree with every HoF member 100% on every topic, but I find them pretty reasonable people most of the time. Certainly more reasonable than the whiny, self-centered "persecuted white males."

[AverageJoe90]

53. Many HoFers are, yes. But there's a few problem people as well. nt

[Squinch]

70. I'm sorry, but you are just completely ridiculous.

[liberalhistorian]

21. Then you must remember a different

DU than me, because I very much remember the vitriol against extremist anti-choice groups and the same kinds of attitudes toward, and ties with, them that are now being made in regard to the MRA and PUA groups with Rodgers. It was all over DU for days.

[sufrommich]

22. Good god,that was my point.

There was absolute agreement on DU that those murderers acted on their extremist views when they killed,that absolute agreement isn't present here when that extremism is misogyny.I don't understand why some are misinterpreting this OP.

[liberalhistorian]

23. Okay, I understand better what you're saying now,

to be fair I think the misinterpretation is because your OP is not quite clear in that regard. It actually sounds as if you're saying the opposite.

[morningfog]

60. I misunderstood your OP.

[Hekate]

26. I misread the intent of your post at first. I agree -- why the pushback now?

Extreme anti-choicers are extremely mysogynistic. They hate and fear women's reproductive powers and sexuality, and wish to control same by any means necessary.

[sufrommich]

29. What I said is that i don't remember any DUers being upset

that those killers were being tagged as extremists who acted out based on their hatred for liberals and abortion providers,both of whom left a trail of clues as to groups they unidentified with.I see some DUers who don't want to tag Rodger as the same sort of extremist who acted out based on groups he identified with.

[Hekate]

65. I agree with you, and I find it creepy and disturbing to see it here. At best, I hope ...

...that men who don't yet get the connection can grow and evolve, if you know what I mean.

[ecstatic]

27. it may not be as nefarious as you think

Whenever something bad happens, people tend to quickly decide what the cause was. Most of the time everyone is in agreement (like in the case of Tiller). When I saw the SB killer's videos and writings, my take away was that he was a mentally ill, most likely psychotic man. From there, the details of what he said didn't matter as I don't try to make sense out of what psychos say.

Others thought that this could have all been avoided if the killer could only find love and sex.

Then there were others, like yourself, who didn't see a psychotic person. You saw a man whose misogyny drove him to kill. I'm not saying that there aren't any misogyny deniers out there, but for me, it's an honest difference in perspective.

[AverageJoe90]

30. I'd say he was both a misogynist AND mentally ill.

And yes, I realize that most who struggle with mental illness are NOT murderers. They are NOT misogynists.....but this man, Elliot Rodger, was both.

[ecstatic]

32. but can a psychotic person be held responsible for holding hateful,

anti-social opinions? I thought the consensus was no, hence the difference in sentencing. That is why I stop processing further after it's clear the person is severely disturbed. Without the disorder, he most likely wouldn't have held those views.

[sufrommich]

31. The guy who shot liberals in the church was very psychotic,I would guess

Dr.Tillers killer isn't mentally balanced either,the fact is,all three killed with the belief that the people they were killing deserved to be punished based on their perception that they were killing evil people,there is no difference.

[ecstatic]

33. In this case, we got to watch video after video of the killer. We didn't get to do that

In those other cases. Had we seen them, there might have been a split between blaming severe mental illness and anti choice beliefs.

[nomorenomore08]

37. But many of his views were simply a more extreme version of stuff that gets posted all over.

MRA's, Gamers, Red-Pillers, whatever they call themselves, who basically advocate treating women like livestock.

I'm not going to link to it on here, but Return of Kings is one of the worst examples of what I'm talking about.

[ecstatic]

42. that's true, and those are the examples that should be used. Using a psychotic man as the face

of this issue hurts the cause for the reasons I've already stated. He was not in control of his thoughts. He wouldn't have held those thoughts were it not for his condition.

[nomorenomore08]

43. His views may have been less extreme (and/or violent) if not for mental illness.

But I can't help seeing the Red Pill/PUAHate bullshit as, in large part, the match that set off this one-man conflagration.

[ecstatic]

47. Without the illness, there's no telling what his beliefs would have been

It's possible he would have been a typical misogynist. The difference is, 6 people wouldn't be dead right now.

[nomorenomore08]

48. Can't really disagree. Especially the last sentence. n/t

[Demit]

62. If he weren't in control of his thoughts, he couldn't have written so lucidly.

So clearly, so eloquently. If he weren't in control of his thoughts, the thoughts would have come out as gibberish.


That's kind of startling, that you think you can say so firmly what his thoughts would or wouldn't be, if not for his condition. You're presupposing what his condition was in the first place. You are being tautological.

[ecstatic]

72. that's not true of paranoid schizophrenics

They can maintain a normal appearance and oftentimes speak and write very clearly. A family friend revealed that Rodgers was extremely paranoid and heard voices, but wouldn't take his medication.

Paranoid schizophrenia manifests itself in an array of symptoms. Common symptoms for paranoid schizophrenia include auditory hallucinations (hearing voices), paranoid delusions (believing everyone is out to cause you harm).[4] However, two of the symptoms separate this form of schizophrenia from other forms.

One criterion for separating paranoid schizophrenia from other types is delusion. Delusions make the person behave in a manner that could lead them to cause harm to themselves or others. A delusion is a belief that is held strong even when evidence shows otherwise. Some common delusions associated with paranoid schizophrenia include, “believing that the government is monitoring every move you make, or that a co-worker is poisoning your lunch”.[4] These beliefs are irrational, and can cause the person holding them to behave abnormally. Another frequent type of delusion is a delusion of grandeur, or the “fixed, false belief that one possesses superior qualities such as genius, fame, omnipotence, or wealth”.[7] Common ones include, “the belief that you can fly, that you're famous, or that you have a relationship with a famous person”.[4] Any of these delusions could lead the person to inflict harm upon others as well as him or herself.

Another criterion present in patients with paranoid schizophrenia are auditory hallucinations, in which the person hears voices or sounds that are not really present. The patient will sometimes hear multiple voices and the voices can either be talking to the patient or to one another.[4] These voices that the patient hears can influence him or her to behave in a particular manner. Researchers at the Mayo Foundation for Medical Education and Research provide the following description: “They [the voices] may make ongoing criticisms of what you’re thinking or doing, or make cruel comments about your real or imagined faults. Voices may also command you to do things that can be harmful to yourself or to others”.[4] A patient exhibiting these auditory hallucinations may be observed talking to him or herself because the person believes that the voices are actually present. All of the symptoms of schizophrenia can lead to the person acting out and causing harm. Early diagnosis is important for the successful treatment of schizophrenia.

Wiki http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranoid_schizophrenia

[Demit]

73. I see. You are basing your diagnosis on a wikipedia entry.

With all due respect to wikipedia, I suspect forensic psychologists like to look into a subject's life before coming to such a confident conclusion. Oh wait, you also have the quote from the unnamed family friend in a newspaper article. Welp, I guess that's all the evidence we need. Case closed!

By the way, your wikipedia copy-and-paste doesn't seem to say anything about a paranoid schizophrenic's writing style, whether it's 'oftentimes' very clear or not. Maybe you should edit the entry with your knowledge?

[ecstatic]

74. I give up! Elliot was a completely normal guy!

Forget the fact that he required psychiatric interventions starting at 8 years old. Only your OPINION is valid. Feel better now?

[Demit]

75. I'm just scorning your armchair diagnosis.

I don't have an opinion, certainly not one as confident as yours. I don't make amateur diagnoses. I wait for the professionals to tell me.

[bravenak]

36. I so get what you mean.

The answer is just because. This is a man's world.
http://m.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

38. Roeder had a history as a known anti-abortion activist....

....and he didn't deny it. And Lee David Atkinson (the Knoxville killer) had a trunk full of books by the usual right wing suspects, highlighted and with footnotes.

If this guy was triggered by MRA, great. Let's see some proof first before we plant the flag on that hill. His online footprint is a few visits to some anti-pickup artists website, which I don't think is MRA. People who've actually parsed through his manifesto seem to think it's clear, he didn't give a shit about anyone else's opinion but his own, and needed no "push" or confirmation of his misogyny to pick up a knife or gun and kill.

I look at it the same as Jared Loughner. Everyone assumed he saw Sarah Palin's website, saw the bullseye graphic, and got the idea to shoot Gabby Giffords. I think it's pretty clear, Jared Loughner was so far beyond fucked up, I don't even know if he'd be able to comprehend the graphic on the website, or even understand that Sarah Palin was from a different political party than Gabby. He lived in his own world, completely divorced from reality, obsessed with linguistics or something, and he shot Giffords because she "disrespected him" when she couldn't answer one of his insanely idiotic messed up questions months earlier. Do we still claim Palin's website made him do it? Do you?

[geek tragedy]

41. "Let's see some proof"

Other than the explicit hatred of women he expressed and cited as the motive for his rampage?

He was an MRA, he swam in the cesspool of hatred, and that is what produced the body count.

Truth hurts, eh, guys?

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

44. He was a misogynist.

Shit, what did misogynists do before MRA's and the internet existed?

[geek tragedy]

45. Well, before the feminists came along, they made all the rules.

Once feminists started making progress in improving society, they got all upset and felt deprived and started talking about how feminists/uppity women had ruined their lives, society, etc.

MRAs are just the latest incarnation of mens' attempts to dominate women.

[giftedgirl77]

58. While there is no denying that he did it on his own...

If you read his manifesto in it's entirety you will see that 1. He has had major social issues since he was very young. 2. His violence towards couples escalated (he had 3 separate incidents prior to this) &. 3. He did send an email to his mother & sister regarding the shit he was seeing on these sites prior to the incident. 4. It was not a secret the violence he wanted to carry out, he spoke of it often.

The guy should have been in a serious mental health program.

[valerief]

39. Are you rewriting history or something? What bullshit!!!! Flamebait!!!! nt

[geek tragedy]

40. Same reason DU doesn't have an anti-choice forum but does have an MRA (or MRA-lite) user group nt

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

46. Really? What user group is that? nt

[geek tragedy]

49. The one that expresses great hostility towards women who disapprove of porn and prostitution,

tries to claim that women are usually the instigators of domestic violence, the one that obsesses over false reports of rape, that blame the Democratic party's catering to feminists as the reason men vote Republican, complaining when men who creep women out get described as "creepy, " pushing the Republican party's talking points on gender pay disparity, and is generally devoted NOT to serious discussions of issues that affect men, but rather to debunking and tearing down feminists and issues where feminists have advocated (e.g. arguing that it's okay to objectify women, that rape culture and the patriarchy are a myth invented by feminist academics.

Oh, and talking about hot chicks.

And whining that there's no such thing as Men's History Month. WITHOUT IRONY.

And complaining about anti-rape PSAs.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

52. Shit, that sounds bad

Too bad I don't see anything like that here?

Care to steer me in the right direction so we can shut it down immediately?

[morningfog]

61. Here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1114

Glad I could help.

[JackRiddler]

51. Do you mean this?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1114

[Hippo_Tron]

50. Tiller's murder was an assassination, the connection is a little more black and white

Scott Roeder fundamentally believes that he killed someone equivalent to Hitler and he has a movement full of people behind him who treat him as a hero for doing so.

Rogers didn't assassinate a feminist icon to the cheers of a bunch of extremist men's groups. He was a terribly troubled guy with access to guns who went on a shooting rampage. Extremist men's groups are just taking the opportunity to show us what assholes they are (something we already knew).

[JustAnotherGen]

59. The Unitarian Universalist Church Shooting

There seemed at the time - to be a slight resistance to acknowledging our (UU's) spiritual path. That INDEED it was a church and the community at large was targeted for our beliefs. At around the same time there were other attacks - albeit not with guns - on other UU Churches. A minor act of violence was someone ripping down a rainbow flag on the side of First U in Rochester NY - the first UU church I belonged and tithed to.

I think that there are pockets of intolerance around the membership of DU. It shows up in the strangest places at the strangest of times - but it's here.

I would say the same profile that resists acknowledging that the killer in Santa Barbara hated women also resist the concept of the divine feminine in spirituality matters, and the power of reason and truth. They simply aren't humanists - so I shrug shoulders and walk away.

[NCTraveler]

64. You received some well thought out replies showing differences...

and clearing up memories. Great when an op gets educated replies explaining the intricacies involved with their question. Good learning moment.

[Arkana]

84. Where's the pushback coming from?