"not all men". .

[niyad]

. . .



But if you think for one second, for one solitary second, that demanding tolerance for men as a group, that dismissing the reality of violence against women because not all men kill, not all men rape, if you think that’s more important than demanding justice for those who have been brutalised and murdered by those not all men, then you are part of the problem. You may not have pulled the trigger. You may not have raised your hand to a woman in your life. But you are part of the problem.

. . . .

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2014/05/26-4

[GeorgeGist]

1. Bigotry.

Trash.

[niyad]

2. "if you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem" is the truth.

[boston bean]

5. first post, is accusation of bigotry for speaking about bigotry.

Reminds me of the reverse racist crowd. It aint a pretty sight.

[niyad]

7. indeed

[redqueen]

15. Yep. nt

[niyad]

21. hmmm, I wonder. . . .

[Iggo]

31. Not too hard, I hope.

[niyad]

3. . . .

[rrneck]

4. That's just plain wrong. nt

[niyad]

6. really? why?

[boston bean]

8. I wouldn't have asked that you may receive a word salad thesis

that you will be too stupid to understand for not agreeing with.

[niyad]

9. I know--and all this without sufficient caffeine.

[niyad]

19. and it appeared right on schedule.

[rrneck]

13. I hope this isn't too long.

http://www.socialresearchmethods.net/kb/fallacy.php

A fallacy is an error in reasoning, usually based on mistaken assumptions. Researchers are very familiar with all the ways they could go wrong, with the fallacies they are susceptible to. Here, I discuss two of the most important.

The ecological fallacy occurs when you make conclusions about individuals based only on analyses of group data. For instance, assume that you measured the math scores of a particular classroom and found that they had the highest average score in the district. Later (probably at the mall) you run into one of the kids from that class and you think to yourself "she must be a math whiz." Aha! Fallacy! Just because she comes from the class with the highest average doesn't mean that she is automatically a high-scorer in math. She could be the lowest math scorer in a class that otherwise consists of math geniuses!

An exception fallacy is sort of the reverse of the ecological fallacy. It occurs when you reach a group conclusion on the basis of exceptional cases. This is the kind of fallacious reasoning that is at the core of a lot of sexism and racism. The stereotype is of the guy who sees a woman make a driving error and concludes that "women are terrible drivers." Wrong! Fallacy!

Both of these fallacies point to some of the traps that exist in both research and everyday reasoning. They also point out how important it is that we do research. We need to determine empirically how individuals perform (not just rely on group averages). Similarly, we need to look at whether there are correlations between certain behaviors and certain groups (you might look at the whole controversy around the book The Bell Curve as an attempt to examine whether the supposed relationship between race and IQ is real or a fallacy.

I bolded the most important bits in case you don't want to read the entire thing. It's not fair to hold people personally responsible for the actions of others. Do you think you are holding others personally responsible? Are you passionately arguing for societal reform and expecting others to contribute to that reform? Maybe. But others aren't going to feel that way if you take that attitude.

How many times have we heard that the feelings of the aggrieved are the only standard of measure that matters? When you associate average everyday people with rapists and murders you insult them. They are the aggrieved and your OP takes people to task for some reason other than raising awareness of the brutality of a small segment of the population. But if it makes you feel good, carry on.

[niyad]

16. keep trying, I need the laughs.

[rrneck]

18. Good. So does everybody else.

You're not the only one reading this.

[AverageJoe90]

37. This. Just this.

I bolded the most important bits in case you don't want to read the entire thing. It's not fair to hold people personally responsible for the actions of others. Do you think you are holding others personally responsible? Are you passionately arguing for societal reform and expecting others to contribute to that reform? Maybe. But others aren't going to feel that way if you take that attitude.

How many times have we heard that the feelings of the aggrieved are the only standard of measure that matters? When you associate average everyday people with rapists and murders you insult them. They are the aggrieved and your OP takes people to task for some reason other than raising awareness of the brutality of a small segment of the population. But if it makes you feel good, carry on.

Very true. And I realize that in many cases, the offense isn't intentional and is usually the result of miscommunication, or whatever. But it's still a problem. Some here may not realize this fully, but people often feel defensive, not because of what is said, but rather, *how* it's said. How one elucidates their point is a very crucial part of education. For example, in regards to Civil Rights, why do you think people listened to MLK a lot more than Malcolm X? Neither man minced their words. Both made clear the reality of injustice against African-American and other People of Color. But MLK's message was much more conciliatory than Malcolm X's original message(pre-Mecca, that is), while still telling it like it was.....to put it in a (tiny) nutshell.

[bettyellen]

42. we're holding progressive men responsible for acting like they are indeed, progressive.

there's no miscommunication, just some men who seem to be telling us in one way or another with a multitude of excuses "Not my problem, so I am happy to look the other way, or play dumb."
We both KNOW that is exactly what is going on here.

[Nye Bevan]

10. Using words like "some" (or even "many") instead of "all"

is what people do who are truly interested in having a constructive discussion.

[boston bean]

11. woosh! LOL

[niyad]

12. reading comprehension is a very useful skill.

[LanternWaste]

17. Which is why most public pool safety signs begin with "this only applies to bad swimmers...

Which is why most public pool safety signs begin with "this only applies to bad swimmers; good swimmers, please don't take offense-- we certainly don't want you to feel maligned as that would not be constructive..."



Well, no doubt a lot of idiots actively looking for something to be offended at would have the safety signs as such.

[redqueen]

33. Beautifully stated. Anyone who still doesn't get it... well... nt

[Whisp]

40. wow, that was perfect!...

[Gormy Cuss]

30. Apparently just using the term "men" causes the problem.

"Men should stop treating women like footstools" doesn't mean that all men are treating women like footstools. It simply means that those men who are should stop.

The retort "not ALL men" is defensive in a peculiar way given that women know that already.

[pampango]

20. Similar to: Not all whites joined the KKK but it was an accepted part of society for a long time.

Those whites who did not demand "justice for those who have been brutalised and murdered by those not all whites, then you are part of the problem. You may not have pulled the trigger. You may not have raised your hand to a Black in your life. But you are part of the problem."

A few violent members of a majority group can be a useful tool to repress and intimidate a minority group even if the vast majority of the former take no active part in the repression. If this 'vast majority' benefit from the intimidation from the violent few and do not speak up against them and on behalf of the "brutalised", they are part of the problem.

[Ohio Joe]

46. You are, of course, correct.

Well said

[gollygee]

49. You can't stay still on a moving train

Even if you aren't physically and intentionally walking in that direction, if you stay on the train you're moving that way regardless.

[AgingAmerican]

23. So men shouldn't be 'tolerated as a group?'

lol Hate much? Bigotry much?

[niyad]

24. reading comprehension is a valuable skill

[AgingAmerican]

25. But fallacies are not

nt

[niyad]

26. keep trying, I need the laughs.

[AgingAmerican]

27. Keep pushing fallacies

They really bolster your position...

[randys1]

28. Watching men be defensive about misogyny or white folk about racism is kinda funny...

Sort of like watching evolution before your very eyes, while some of us are clearly more evolved than others, it is still interesting to watch.

Funny thing is I am not at all special, yet I understand the horrific treatment of women by men, of minorities by whites...

Maybe I am just lucky, or unlucky...

[AgingAmerican]

32. Thus all men

...and whites...are GUILTY!!

GUILTY!!

[bettyellen]

35. you seem to be imaging posts that are just not there. Sad.

[randys1]

36. You have to excuse old white men, they are fearful of minorities, Women, etc

They have always been given a HUGE, GIGANTIC advantage over everybody else, and while that advantage still exists, it makes them nervous when you talk about taking it away.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

29. I don't think it's 'more important'.

On the other hand, I don't see why it has to be a competition. I can walk and chew gum.

Why are there certain subjects upon which we can't ask for exactitude and nuance that reflects reality in speech?

If we aren't supposed to broad brush elsewhere, why are we supposed to broad brush in this specific instance?

The white privilege posts often reflect a desire to create more white allies who actually understand the problems, and work, if even in small ways, against ingrained privilege. To demand justice for injustices to people of colour.

Is there something better than allies in the fight to be gained by being dismissive of those who might be allies in demanding justice simply for the sake of justifying rhetorical choices?

[H2O Man]

34. Recommended.

I do not have to agree with every word of the OP to "recommend" it. Nor, in discussions of violence, do I feel that I'm on a hot seat, because I am a man, and have a compulsive need to say, "but-but-but - not all men."

[KitSileya]

38. As Melissa McEwan just said

When asked why she addressed things to men when not all men... "Because the men who genuinely don't need to hear it don't fucking complain."

[Raksha]

39. I'm going to have to remember that one. I'm sure I'll find many occasions to use it.

"Because the men who genuinely don't need to hear it don't fucking complain."

[Whisp]

41. ++++

[Starry Messenger]

43. Boom.

[niyad]

44. excellent

[gollygee]

47. +1

Don't need their hands held and a reassuring, "Don't worry, I'm not talking about you" every time this comes up.

[redqueen]

48. EXACTLY. And the same goes for men who whine about not being 'allowed' to call themselves feminists.

Such reactionary posturing tells us a lot more than they think.

[niyad]

45. . . .