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Newsjock

(11,733 posts)
Wed May 28, 2014, 08:18 PM May 2014

Carlyle Group says it doesn't own Montana water company because it owns the companies that own it

Source: Missoulian

The Carlyle Group claims it does not own Missoula’s water system and therefore cannot be named as a defendant in the city’s condemnation lawsuit, according to court documents filed by Carlyle’s lawyers on Tuesday.

... Carlyle’s claim that it doesn’t own the water system would seemingly contradicts that it would have to approve any sale of Mountain Water, as well as a 2013 letter from Carlyle Infrastructure managing director Robert Dove to Missoula Mayor John Engen indicating a willingness to listen to offers to buy Mountain Water. In the letter, Dove stated that “Carlyle Infrastructure is honored to be the ultimate owner of Mountain Water.” Carlyle ultimately rejected two city offers to buy Mountain Water in the past.

Carlyle’s argument to the court is based on the fact that Missoula’s water system falls under a tangled web of corporate ownership. Mountain Water owns and operates the water system, and is itself owned by California-based Park Water Co. Park Water and two California water utilities are owned by Western Water Holdings, and Carlyle Infrastructure Partners LP is the managing member of Western Water Holdings. Carlyle Infrastructure is a division of the global firm The Carlyle Group, which invests in public and private infrastructure projects and businesses.

In short, the essence of Carlyle’s argument is that although it owns the companies that own Mountain Water, it does not own the water system. And that means the city of Missoula has the right to sue only the direct owner of the water system, Mountain Water.

Read more: http://missoulian.com/news/local/carlyle-says-it-isn-t-owner-of-mountain-water-can/article_82fd9576-e6b1-11e3-9f2d-001a4bcf887a.html

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Carlyle Group says it doesn't own Montana water company because it owns the companies that own it (Original Post) Newsjock May 2014 OP
Hillary's buddies at it again. L0oniX May 2014 #1
The city wants a legal fight and they're getting one. badtoworse May 2014 #2
Most water should be publicly owned. The standard for an eminent domain proceeding pnwmom May 2014 #6
If the public need is being served by Carlyle, what is the need for the taking? badtoworse May 2014 #7
The public need is NOT being served by Carlyle. Carlyle is letting the system pnwmom May 2014 #8
Do you have any citations? I'm not being snarky - I have a professional interest badtoworse May 2014 #10
Here's a local one. pnwmom May 2014 #12
Thanks. This is helpful badtoworse May 2014 #14
This is the exact same way that Monsanto works. Shandris May 2014 #3
Well if corporations are "people" tech3149 May 2014 #4
Hah, nice! I like the way you think! Shandris May 2014 #5
How about we chop up the whole fucking snake? TeamPooka May 2014 #9
Uhm gollygee May 2014 #11
corporate veil piercing case, interesting to see how it goes nt geek tragedy May 2014 #13
 

badtoworse

(5,957 posts)
2. The city wants a legal fight and they're getting one.
Wed May 28, 2014, 08:29 PM
May 2014

The standard for an eminent domain proceeding should be very high. Missoula should have to prove that there is no reasonable alternative to the taking and I haven't seen any argument that substantiates it.

pnwmom

(108,976 posts)
6. Most water should be publicly owned. The standard for an eminent domain proceeding
Wed May 28, 2014, 11:12 PM
May 2014

related to water should be very low.

 

badtoworse

(5,957 posts)
7. If the public need is being served by Carlyle, what is the need for the taking?
Thu May 29, 2014, 06:12 AM
May 2014

Precedents have consequences and I think you should consider whether you want the government to be able to take things when there are other alternatives or there is no demonstrable need.

pnwmom

(108,976 posts)
8. The public need is NOT being served by Carlyle. Carlyle is letting the system
Thu May 29, 2014, 03:04 PM
May 2014

deteriorate, disregarding the region's long term needs in favor of short-term profits for its shareholders. Missoula shouldn't be the only municipality in Montana without a public water system. This should have happened long ago.

 

badtoworse

(5,957 posts)
10. Do you have any citations? I'm not being snarky - I have a professional interest
Thu May 29, 2014, 05:05 PM
May 2014

I've been in the electric power business for more than 30 years and I would expect that water companies, like electric companies, are subject to regulation by the state Public Service Commission ("PSC&quot . That means that Mountain Water can only charge what the PSC approves in their tariff. That regulation also means that their returns on equity are approved by the PSC. I have to assume that Carlyle was happy with those regulated returns or they would not have purchased Mountain Water. Carlyle would be entitled to earn that same regulated return on additional capital expenditures made by Mountain Water which would include the cost of upgrading and expanding the system to meet future needs. For that reason, it seems illogical to me that they wouldn't be willing to invest additional capital into Mountain Water - they'd make money on that investment. In fact, private equity companies, like Carlyle, look at expansion opportunities as a potential upside when they evaluate a potential investment. This whole situation makes no sense to me.

In my experience, it's unusual for a regulated utility not to make capital investments when they needed. The only reasons I can think of are 1.) they don't like the returns they're getting; 2.) They don't think the PSC will approve the expenditure and allow them to earn a return on it; or 3.) they can't raise the money. I'd be surprised if any of these applied here.

As far as public ownership goes, why should that be an issue? Electricity is just as much of a necessity as water and most people in the country are reliably served by investor owned power companies.

pnwmom

(108,976 posts)
12. Here's a local one.
Thu May 29, 2014, 05:29 PM
May 2014
http://missoulian.com/news/local/missoula-files-for-eminent-domain-takeover-of-water-system/article_d7e7703e-ba9c-11e3-97ad-0019bb2963f4.html

In 2011, the global investment firm The Carlyle Group acquired Mountain Water Co. and its parent company, Park Water in California. Missoula remains the only major city in the state of Montana that does not own its water utility.

As part of its complaint, the city argues that Mountain Water ratepayers under private ownership are lining the pocketbooks of faraway investors. In the 2013 fiscal year, the Carlyle Group’s three founders earned $750 million, or roughly more than $133,000 each per hour, and they had use of a private airplane valued at $1.1 million.

SNIP

“Defendants’ unwillingness to make improvements to the City’s Water System is evidenced by the decaying and leaking condition of the System’s Infrastructure and Defendants’ notable decrease in spending on necessary maintenance and repairs.”

“The City understands that Missoula’s Water System operated by Defendants incurs and pays approximately $2 million per year to Mountain Water’s parent company … for ‘administrative support.’ Upon acquiring the Water System, the City will be able to operate it at cost.”
 

badtoworse

(5,957 posts)
14. Thanks. This is helpful
Thu May 29, 2014, 06:04 PM
May 2014

I think this will hinge on whether the city can convince the judge that Carlyle is putting the city at risk by its operation of the water system.

The case could well get complicated because the PSC should be involved. It's fair for the judge to ask if the city complained to the PSC about Carlyle not using good practice in operating and maintaining their system. That would be the proper venue for the city to seek relief if a public utility is providing poor service. Assuming that happened, the PSC's action be very relevant. If the PSC was OK with how the system is being operated, the city's case becomes very weak. If the PSC had a problem with how the system was being operated, they would almost certainly have done something about it, but the article did not say that. I would guess, that the city never went to the PSC. If that's the case, then the judge might throw the case out and tell the city to complain to the PSC.

That stuff about Carlyle making money and what they are doing with it is mostly irrelevant. It's intended to sway public opinion, not the judge. There is nothing wrong with an investor making money by owning a regulated utility and the PSC approves the water rates. What Carlyle does with the money is their business.

I think the city is going to lose.

 

Shandris

(3,447 posts)
3. This is the exact same way that Monsanto works.
Wed May 28, 2014, 08:33 PM
May 2014

It owns companies that own companies that break into subsidiaries that own other subsidiaries, and by the time you reach the end of the chain when something horrible happens, there really isn't much you can do to get to the head of the snake.

tech3149

(4,452 posts)
4. Well if corporations are "people"
Wed May 28, 2014, 10:55 PM
May 2014

why should they be allowed to "own" other people? Wouldn't that be a form of slavery? Can't have it both ways unless you dismiss the idea of hypocrisy.

 

Shandris

(3,447 posts)
5. Hah, nice! I like the way you think!
Wed May 28, 2014, 11:05 PM
May 2014

Of course, heaven forbid we have any degree of parity between actual people and, you know, highly-moneyed corporations. What crazy ideas will we dare think up after that? Income equality that isn't measured in multiples of thousands?!

gollygee

(22,336 posts)
11. Uhm
Thu May 29, 2014, 05:06 PM
May 2014

If you own A that owns B, you own both A and B. Morons.

If I hold in my hand a rock that contains a gem, I hold both the rock and gem in my hand.

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