John Kerry was very clear about his feelings toward Edward Snowden today.

[pennylane100]

He called him a coward, suggesting that he should man up and come home. While I have mixed feelings about what Snowden did, he was certainly no coward.

Our previous president is a war criminal. His lies caused the death of hundred of thousands of innocent people and a refugee problem that left millions homeless. If Kerry had suggested we treat him like the monster he is and make him pay for all the carnage he knowingly left behind, I do not remember him speaking up. But when someone exposes this country's dirty laundry, he finds his voice. That sounds like a coward to me.

[merrily]

1. Kerry was clear about repeating the company line as to Snowden. However, I thought his remarks

singularly unimpressive.

"I am not about to get into....." is not exactly a rebuttal.

As a lesser point, Kerry either misunderstood or deliberately mischaracterized what Snowden said about Cuba.

In all, nothing to crow about.

[WillyT]

2. Which Kerry ???

This guy...



Or this guy...

[zeemike]

37. Well all of them are the Scull and Bones Kerry.

and no doubt loyal to the patriarchy of the Bush family.
So he can never dis a fellow bones-man.

[ucrdem]

3. John Kerry speaks for me.

That's why I voted for him.

[Tikki]

33. He speaks for me, also.

Tikki

[cantbeserious]

39. John Kerry Does Not Speak For Me - Snowden Is A Hero In My Eyes - John Kerry Not So Much

Kerry has become a defender of the 1% - Nothing more, Nothing Less.

[MADem]

51. Yep, I can dig it. nt

[Chan790]

53. me, as well. n/t

[msanthrope]

4. He also called him "pretty dumb." Spot on! nt

[sendero]

5. Fuck...

.... John Kerry for throwing the 2004 election by being a moronic milquetoast, and fuck his idiotic position on Snowden.

[JJChambers]

6. Kerry was a shill in 2004 and is still one today

He was an icon in the Vietnam war era. But he sold his soul long ago.

[MohRokTah]

7. Kerry was spot on. eom

[AverageJoe90]

8. And, TBH.....good for John Kerry. No offense meant to OP, though. nt

[LittleBlue]

9. Kerry didn't even have the courage to vote against the Iraq War Resolution

Snowden threw away his whole life to oppose something he thought was wrong. Kerry wouldn't even risk his political career.

The coward here is Kerry, and unlike Snowden he has the blood of thousands on his hands.

[JI7]

14. if it's wrong why did he run off to china and russia ?

[LittleBlue]

34. Because leaking is an offense that will get him life imprisonment in

solitary confinement. George Bush, and all those who helped him kill thousands of soldiers and hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, will never face prosecution for their war crimes. Because they run things and Snowden doesn't.

[woo me with science]

36. Well said. nt

[Shemp Howard]

38. Exactly, LittleBlue!

The Japanese strike at Pearl Harbor was preventive in nature (from their point of view). No matter. Every decent person knows that preventive wars are immoral and illegal.

The Iraq war was a preventive war. So it was illegal and immoral. But the majority of Congress decided to vote for the Iraq War Resolution anyway. Why? Because they were cowards, afraid to subject themselves to the type of treatment the Dixie Chicks later received. So the cowards voted for war.

Every person who voted for that Resolution (Kerry, Hillary, etc., etc.) should have resigned in shame.

[ProSense]

10. Evidently, Kerry

pissed off Greenwald, which led to this whine:

Kerry's macho bravado ("man up&quot is not just obnoxious but deceitful, since he'd be barred from arguing justification http://mashable.com/2014/05/28/john-kerry-edward-snowden/

https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/471705426372100096

Does Greenwald actually believe Kerry should be concerned that a self-confessed spy shot himself in the foot?

Greenwald needs to focus on his new threat to release names. Maybe it'll be the Government's "worst nightmare" he predicted last year.

"Snowden has enough information to cause harm to the U.S. government in a single minute than any other person has ever had," Greenwald said in an interview in Rio de Janeiro with the Argentinean daily La Nacion.

"The U.S. government should be on its knees every day begging that nothing happen to Snowden, because if something does happen to him, all the information will be revealed and it could be its worst nightmare."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023242606

I stand with Kerry.

Many people who oppose NSA overreach and recognize the value of the debate also don't approve of Snowden's actions that go beyond sparking a debate about the NSA's domestic activities. In the end, a trial is required to hold him accountable.

I stand with Jimmy Carter:

Carter: Snowden's leaks 'good for Americans to know'

Susan Page

NEW YORK -- Former president Jimmy Carter defended the disclosures by fugitive NSA contractor Edward Snowden on Monday, saying revelations that U.S. intelligence agencies were collecting meta-data of Americans' phone calls and e-mails have been "probably constructive in the long run."

<...>

Does he view Snowden, now granted asylum in Russia, as a hero or a traitor?

"There's no doubt that he broke the law and that he would be susceptible, in my opinion, to prosecution if he came back here under the law," he said. "But I think it's good for Americans to know the kinds of things that have been revealed by him and others -- and that is that since 9/11 we've gone too far in intrusion on the privacy that Americans ought to enjoy as a right of citizenship."

Carter cautioned that he didn't have information about whether some of the disclosures "may have hurt our security or individuals that work in security," adding, "If I knew that, then I may feel differently." And he said Snowden shouldn't be immune from prosecution for his actions.

"I think it's inevitable that he should be prosecuted and I think he would be prosecuted" if he returned to the United States, the former president said. "But I don't think he ought to be executed as a traitor or any kind of extreme punishment like that."

- more -

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2014/03/24/usa-today-capital-download-jimmy-carter-edward-snowden-probably-constructive/6822425/

Bernie Sanders:

<...>

BLITZER: What about Snowden? Do you think that he committed a crime or he was simply a well-intentioned whistle-blower?

SANDERS: Well, I think what you have to look at is -- I think there is no question that he committed a crime, obviously. He violated his oath and he leaked information.

On the other hand, what you have to weigh that against is the fact that he has gone a very long way in educating the people of our country and the people of the world about the power of private agency in terms of their surveillance over people of this country, over foreign leaders, and what they are doing.

So, I think you got to weigh the two. My own belief is that I think, I would hope that the United States government could kind of negotiate some plea bargain with him, some form of clemency. I think it wouldn't be a good idea or fair to him to have to spend his entire remaining life abroad, not being able to come back to his country.

So I would hope that there's a price that he has to pay, but I hope it is not a long prison sentence or exile from his country.

BLITZER: You wouldn't give him clemency, though, and let him off scot-free?

SANDERS: No. BLITZER: All right, Senator, thanks very much for joining us.

<...>

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1401/06/sitroom.02.html

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024292659

I stand with anyone who recognizes that one doesn't have defend Snowden, Putin's tool, to be on the "right side of history."

Senator Blumenthal: prosecute Snowden, overhaul FISA courts.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023425884

Rep. John Lewis: "NO PRAISE FOR SNOWDEN-Reports about my interview with The Guardian are misleading"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023427908

“What Mr. Snowden did is treason, was high crimes, and there is nothing in what we say that justifies what he did,” said Richard Clarke, a former White House counter-terrorism advisor and current ABC News contributor. “Whether or not this panel would have been created anyway, I don’t know, but I don’t think anything that I’ve learned justifies the treasonous acts of Mr. Snowden.”

From the beginning, it was clear that Snowden broke the law (http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023439290). There was a point where even Snowden supporters accepted that he knew he broke the law. Snowden said it himself.

Fleeing the country and releasing state secrets did not help his case.

His actions since then have only made the situation worse.

Whistleblowers have been making that point, some in subtle ways.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023236549

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023035550

Of course, this is dimissed because they're also critical of the NSA. It's as if some think that you can't be against NSA overreach (http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023002358) unless you support Snowden.

In line with the OP question: Were you against Clarke when he went after Bush? Were you for Scooter Libby when he leaked Plame's identity?

[pennylane100]

66. Very good questions.

Unfortunately, I think we all know the answers.

[pacalo]

11. Daniel Ellsberg's whistleblowing helped to end the Vietnam war that John Kerry protested.

What politicians say when their young lives are being put in danger due to lies & what politicians say after they join the PTB circles should not be surprising.

Snowden is not a coward.

[ProSense]

12. Kerry:

Kerry: If Snowden Is A Patriot, He Should Stay In The US And Make His Case

Secretary of State John Kerry said Wednesday that if former National Security Agency contractor Edward Snowden was a true 'patriot,' like famed Pentagon Papers leaker Daniel Ellsburg, he would return to the U.S. and have his day in court.

"If this man is a patriot, he should stay in the United States and make his case. Patriots don't go to Russia, they don't seek asylum in Cuba, they don't seek asylum in Venezuela. They fight their cause here," Kerry told MSNBC host Chuck Todd on "The Daily Rundown."

"There are many a patriot. You can go back to the Pentagon Papers, with Dan Ellsberg and others, who stood and went to the court system of America and made their case," he continued. "Edward Snowden is a coward, he is a traitor and he has betrayed his country. If he wants to come home tomorrow to face the music, he can do so."

In his own interview with NBC News airing Wednesday night, Snowden told anchor Brian Williams that he was "personally surprised" to find himself stuck in Russia without papers after fleeing the country and placed the blame for his current situation on the State Department.

- more -

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/john-kerry-edward-snowden-asylum

[pacalo]

16. I don't agree with Kerry on this.

[MannyGoldstein]

18. Make his case before, during, or after being tortured?

What's your thinking on this?

[ProSense]

21. Well,

"Make his case before, during, or after being tortured?

What's your thinking on this?"

...he could have made his case like those who had the courage not to flee. Thomas Tamm:

“He’s in for a pretty overwhelming investigation,” Tamm, now a criminal defense attorney in Rockville, Md., told POLITICO in an interview. “I think the government will use a lot of their resources to try to find him.”

But if Snowden is returned to the United States, Tamm said, “I think with the right representation, and with the right way of presenting what he did, I think he’ll be able to put his life back together.” Tamm says he’d even be willing to be part of the defense team.

http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=A9C45FF7-E7EB-44AD-9C5A-D2C7F0B7F276

There have been several prominent whistleblowers over the last several years who did not flee the country.

William Binney, Thomas Drake, and Tamm are whistleblowers who stayed and faced the consequences of their actions. They were not persecuted, they faced prosecution. They are not in jail. In fact, Tamm was the one who exposed Bush's illegal eavesdropping on Americans.

Snowden created a bigger problem for himself with the information he stole and revealed that was unrelated to NSA domestic activities. Fleeing to Russia did not help his cause. Apparently, Assange is trying to make it worse.

I'll leave the "being tortured" hyperbole to you.

[MannyGoldstein]

27. Was Manning tortured? nt

Last edited Wed May 28, 2014, 11:13 PM - Edit history (1)

[ProSense]

29. Is Snowden in the military? Is Snowden Manning?

Lots of people are "tortured" year after year in the same way Manning was: by being placed in solitary confinement.

Solitary Confinement Is Especially Brutal For Teenage Inmates
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023628823

Transgender Teen Spends Five Weeks in Solitary at an Adult Prison — Without Being Charged
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024996696

Now, what does that have to do with Snowden?

[zeemike]

40. That sounds like the argument Dick Cheney made for water boarding.

People are tortured all the time...no big deal.

But it has everything to do with Snowden...had he stayed in this country he would be there with Manning and we would have heard no more of him...and the press would never mention it again.

Only a fool would put himself at their mercy on some misguided idea that to be brave is to let them shut you up both physically and verbally.

[ProSense]

42. Only to you

"That sounds like the argument Dick Cheney made for water boarding. People are tortured all the time...no big deal. "

I made no such silly claim.

If you want to fantasize about Snowden being "tortured" that on you.

"Only a fool would put himself at their mercy on some misguided idea that to be brave is to let them shut you up both physically and verbally."

"Only a fool" would set himself up for such an outcome.

EXCLUSIVE: Edward Snowden Tells Brian Williams: 'I'd Like to Go Home'

By Erin McClam

Edward Snowden, who became the most wanted fugitive in the world after he leaked government secrets and fled the country, tells “Nightly News” anchor Brian Williams: “If I could go anywhere in the world, that place would be home.”

In the exclusive interview, Snowden said amnesty or clemency would be for the public and the government to decide. He said that he sees himself as a patriot, while also revealing that he plans to ask Russia to extend his asylum.

“I’ve from Day One said that I’m doing this to serve my country,” Snowden said...his desire to return to his homeland is foremost in his mind. “I don’t think there’s ever been any question that I’d like to go home,” he said.

But asked whether he would make a deal to return, Snowden said: “My priority is not about myself. It’s about making sure that these programs are reformed — and that the family that I left behind, the country that I left behind — can be helped by my actions.”

- more -

http://www.nbcnews.com/#/feature/edward-snowden-interview/exclusive-edward-snowden-tells-brian-williams-id-go-home-n116756

Kerry: If Snowden Is A Patriot, He Should Stay In The US And Make His Case
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025011852

[zeemike]

48. Well apparently not.

Not only here at DU but those like Elsburg and Tice who have been through it and are in the know.

But how do you think posting what Snowden said there helps your case?...should he not want to go home to his family?...do you think that shows he is a coward?...or did you just use it to fill up your post with?

[ProSense]

49. No,

"But how do you think posting what Snowden said there helps your case?...should he not want to go home to his family?...do you think that shows he is a coward?...or did you just use it to fill up your post with?"

...fleeing the country showed he's a "coward."

If he was a "spy," as he claimed, and didn't know the consequences of his actions, then he's in lala land. Thomas Tamm:

“He’s in for a pretty overwhelming investigation,” Tamm, now a criminal defense attorney in Rockville, Md., told POLITICO in an interview. “I think the government will use a lot of their resources to try to find him.”

But if Snowden is returned to the United States, Tamm said, “I think with the right representation, and with the right way of presenting what he did, I think he’ll be able to put his life back together.” Tamm says he’d even be willing to be part of the defense team.

http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=A9C45FF7-E7EB-44AD-9C5A-D2C7F0B7F276

There have been several prominent whistleblowers over the last several years who did not flee the country.

William Binney, Thomas Drake, and Tamm are whistleblowers who stayed and faced the consequences of their actions. They were not persecuted, they faced prosecution. They are not in jail. In fact, Tamm was the one who exposed Bush's illegal eavesdropping on Americans.

Snowden created a bigger problem for himself with the information he stole and revealed that was unrelated to NSA domestic activities. Fleeing to Russia did not help his cause.

[zeemike]

54. And if you ask those same whistleblowers why nothing came of it they will tell you.

That it was because they released no documents to expose it...and the NYT had the story and did not print it because the White house told them not too.

I would give you the link to the Front line coverage of this...and it is in great detail...but you would not see it...you cannot be convinced it appears to me...and no matter what the evidence you can rationalize it away.

Blind allegiance to party will destroy us as it has every time it is tried.

[ProSense]

55. Huh?

And if you ask those same whistleblowers why nothing came of it they will tell you.

That it was because they released no documents to expose it...and the NYT had the story and did not print it because the White house told them not too.

I would give you the link to the Front line coverage of this...and it is in great detail...but you would not see it...you cannot be convinced it appears to me...and no matter what the evidence you can rationalize it away.

Blind allegiance to party will destroy us as it has every time it is tried.

"Blind allegiance" to Snowden is clouding people's judgment and memory.

[Shemp Howard]

44. Kerry's statement is just ridiculous.

Kerry: If Snowden Is A Patriot, He Should Stay In The US And Make His Case

Regardless of your opinion of Snowden, that is a ridiculous statement. It almost made me laugh. If Snowden had stayed in the US, he would have been shut down and whisked away to prison. The only "case" he could have made would have been via statements from his lawyer.

Anyone (in the US anyway) who presented any proof would end up in prison also.

Kerry's comment reminds me of how a schoolyard bully talks to a little kid: So you think I stole your lunch money? Then meet me after school and we'll settle it like men.

Yep, that's a fair fight.

[ProSense]

47. Clearly,

"Regardless of your opinion of Snowden, that is a ridiculous statement. It almost made me laugh. If Snowden had stayed in the US, he would have been shut down and whisked away to prison. The only "case" he could have made would have been via statements from his lawyer. "

...by fleeing the country with stolen Government documents (some admittedly damaging) and revealing information that went beyond NSA domestic surveillance, he's in a better position, right?

EXCLUSIVE: Edward Snowden Tells Brian Williams: 'I'd Like to Go Home'

By Erin McClam

Edward Snowden, who became the most wanted fugitive in the world after he leaked government secrets and fled the country, tells “Nightly News” anchor Brian Williams: “If I could go anywhere in the world, that place would be home.”

In the exclusive interview, Snowden said amnesty or clemency would be for the public and the government to decide. He said that he sees himself as a patriot, while also revealing that he plans to ask Russia to extend his asylum.

“I’ve from Day One said that I’m doing this to serve my country,” Snowden said...his desire to return to his homeland is foremost in his mind. “I don’t think there’s ever been any question that I’d like to go home,” he said.

But asked whether he would make a deal to return, Snowden said: “My priority is not about myself. It’s about making sure that these programs are reformed — and that the family that I left behind, the country that I left behind — can be helped by my actions.”

- more -

http://www.nbcnews.com/#/feature/edward-snowden-interview/exclusive-edward-snowden-tells-brian-williams-id-go-home-n116756

Speaking of "ridiculous"...

"Kerry's comment reminds me of how a schoolyard bully talks to a little kid: So you think I stole your lunch money? Then meet me after school and we'll settle it like men. "

[Shemp Howard]

50. You missed my point.

I am not arguing here whether Snowden was right or wrong.

What I am saying is that Kerry's statement was ridiculous, silly even. It won't convince many people. "Oh, yes, Snowden should have risked certain arrest and suppression of his evidence, just to prove that he's a man!" Nope, that ain't gonna fly.

Evidently you disagree, but I think my schoolyard bully analogy holds. Remember, it's possible that the bully is correct, and the little kid is wrong. Either way, it was would silly for the little boy to fight the bully on the bully's terms.

[ProSense]

52. No, I didn't

You missed my point.

I am not arguing here whether Snowden was right or wrong.

What I am saying is that Kerry's statement was ridiculous, silly even. It won't convince many people. "Oh, yes, Snowden should have risked certain arrest and suppression of his evidence, just to prove that he's a man!" Nope, that ain't gonna fly.

Evidently you disagree, but I think my schoolyard bully analogy holds. Remember, it's possible that the bully is correct, and the little kid is wrong.

If you think any administration official is going to coddle Snowden, then you're letting your bias get the best of you.

I mean, Snowden and his lawyers know he broke the law. Snowden knows the extent of the information he took, as he admitted tonight. He's screwed. He's a fugitive. He's not some little kid, and it's absurd to expect that he'd be treated with kid gloves.

Demanding or suggesting he return to the U.S. to be held accountable is standard.

[Warren Stupidity]

13. Ellsberg did not flee the country.

he escaped jail because the Nixon administration couldn't keep its hands off the case, otherwise he was facing espionage charges.

I think that Snowden looked at what happened to Ellsberg and at what happened to more recent whistle-blowers and did the math.

[pacalo]

15. I'm wondering what would have happened to Ellsberg if Nixon had the Patriot Act to work with.

[Warren Stupidity]

19. As I said, if Nixon had kept his hands off the Ellsberg case, he was going to jail for a long time.

They threw the book at him. Nixon did him a favor, accidentally.

[pacalo]

23. That, indeed, needs emphasis.

Thanks, Warren.

[Aerows]

43. He would have likely been

so deep in a hole under the jail that Guantanamo would seem like paradise.

[pacalo]

59. Ellsberg would have been scraped up in pieces after the torture, then put under the jail.

The Patriot Act would have been quite the toy for a paranoid president with no tolerance for differing ideologies (re: his "enemies list&quot .

[MannyGoldstein]

17. Ellsberg is supportive of Snowden's flight

Ellsberg says that his case took place in a different America where the Constitution was respected, that Snowden would likely be tortured then imprisoned for decades.

[Warren Stupidity]

20. As do I. Indeed the bill or rights still had some meaning back then.

[ProSense]

25. Ah,

"Ellsberg says that his case took place in a different America where the Constitution was respected, that Snowden would likely be tortured then imprisoned for decades."

...the good old days.

In August 1971, Krogh and Young met with G. Gordon Liddy and E. Howard Hunt in a basement office in the Old Executive Office Building. Hunt and Liddy recommended a "covert operation" to get a "mother lode" of information about Ellsberg's mental state in order to discredit him. Krogh and Young sent a memo to Ehrlichman seeking his approval for a "covert operation [to] be undertaken to examine all of the medical files still held by Ellsberg's psychiatrist." Ehrlichman approved under the condition that it be "done under your assurance that it is not traceable."[21]

On September 3, 1971, the burglary of Lewis Fielding's office – titled "Hunt/Liddy Special Project No. 1" in Ehrlichman's notes—was carried out by Hunt, Liddy and CIA officers Eugenio Martínez, Felipe de Diego and Bernard Barker. The "Plumbers" failed to find Ellsberg's file. Hunt and Liddy subsequently planned to break into Fielding's home, but Ehrlichman did not approve the second burglary. The break-in was not known to Ellsberg or to the public until it came to light during Ellsberg and Russo's trial in April 1973.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Ellsberg#Fielding_break-in

[backscatter712]

61. Ellsberg didn't face supermaxing or psychological torture.

And Ellsberg himself said Snowden was right to get out of the country, given today's realities.

[Warren Stupidity]

62. I agree with all that.

[UTUSN]

22. Meh. n/t

[mindwalker_i]

24. Dude couldn't even defend his own heroism against

band-aids.

Snowden isn't perfect, but I don't think Kerry has much right to call him a coward.

[ProSense]

26. Despite the RW talking points, Kerry has every right to call Snowden a "coward."

Kerry is spot on.

[mindwalker_i]

32. Yeah, I know your position on this

You've made it pretty clear.

[carolinayellowdog]

28. he was the richest senator, worth more than twice as much as #2

what idiots we were in 2004 to think this man was on our side.

[Blanks]

64. The Kennedy family and Roosevelt were rich. That proves nothing. eom

[Thinkingabout]

30. Snowden can't be a whistleblower, never was his objective, as long as Bush was doing illegal

wiretapping he remained quiet. then he starts making contributions to the Paul gang and afterwards hestole files and ran to Hong Kong and on to Russia. He plays Putin's patsy, reveals what was already told to us, convinces some he has "revealed" something new. He is a thief, committee espionage and ran, makes him a coward and traitor. he m,ade his bed, now he has to lie in it. Now he says he trained as a spy.

[zeemike]

45. Watch the Frontline on this

&list=WL&index=23

[ChisolmTrailDem]

31. Someone in the live thread of Snowden interview said that Snowden's documents were weak

powerpoints, indicating that Snowden is lying about his intelligence experience and level of access. However, Kerry's anger and U.S. government insistence that Snowden has done "immeasurable harm to U.S. interests" betrays that idea.

So, which is it? We can't have it both ways. Either he was a low-level grunt with access to low-level trash or he was high-level with access to documents that, when released, cause "immeasurable harm to U.S. interests".

[Aerows]

46. And there you have it

He's either weak sauce or did immeasurable harm.

Frankly, it is my opinion that he shed some sunlight on operations that our government should not have been doing in the first place, and that sunlight is scaring quite a few that operated in the dark for their own benefit, not for "security" or the "safety" of the American people.

[Historic NY]

35. Well look at this way...

Last edited Thu May 29, 2014, 08:52 AM - Edit history (1)

Snowden is not profiting on the movie rights.

[Aerows]

41. Glenn Greenwald is about to release

the names of the Americans that were spied upon. I'd imagine that will be a blockbuster.

[glinda]

56. ...

[JoeyT]

57. I always enjoy lessons in courage

from people that don't have the guts to stand up to anyone that might be able to hurt them in some way.

War criminals, financial criminals, and environmental criminals walk free or get the mildest of wrist slaps. People that don't have money and power backing them get chased to the ends of the Earth.

[mvd]

58. Good point!

[Scuba]

60. Kerry is either an idiot or has been corrupted. And he's not an idiot.

[backscatter712]

63. "Man up." Way to represent the party that champions womens' and LGBT rights, Kerry!

[Blanks]

65. Coward may be too strong...

But too many people seem to feel the same way: If what he did was right, he needs to face up to the charges.

If he were to come home and face the music, then I wouldn't find it 'objectionable' when people say he's a hero. He's too high profile - they won't torture him. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the abuse that manning suffered (torture, whatever) wasn't happening to someone who's name had been in the news. They quietly snatched his ass and it wasn't revealed until later who he was and what they were doing to him.

I don't believe that Snowden did the right thing unless he's prepared to face the music. I also expect that if he turns himself in - he wouldn't serve any time. He might be found guilty of something, but I'd bet he walks free. He needs to turn himself in.

As I said, coward may be too strong, perhaps 'lacks resolve' or 'uncommitted', but hero is definitely too strong - I'm thinking 'unafraid to fly' or 'open to travel experiences', 'tolerant of short facial hair', but hero - it's just too strong a word to describe his behavior to this point.

[pennylane100]

67. I may have agreed with you

before this statement about Snowden. I hope he has not gone over to the dark side.