Snowden Supporters versus Obama Supporters - I don't want to join either of your tribes

[el_bryanto]

This issue has heated up again, due to Kerrys unfortunate remarks. That said - it seems like for a significant number of people on both sides of the debate, you need to pick one over the other. You need to join a tribe - either the tribe that supports Snowden and Greenwald or the tribe that supports Obama.

But I'm not interested in joining either one. I am grateful to Snowden and Greenwald for bringing certain things to light, and I'll defend them against the ludicrous charges that they are secret right wingers, but I also thin5 that Greenwald has a bit of an ego problem, and the decision to save the best revelations for last was ill considered.

By the same token, I am quite certain that Obama is a better president than McCain or Romney would have been, and he's done a number of things I really like; but he's also continued the surveillance state in ways that I find very troubling, and he has clearly disappointed a lot of his supporters, who were hoping for something more than "well he's a bit better than Bush."

More to the point, I can see how people, good, honest, smart DUers can come down on either side of this issue. I can see how good honest and honorable DUers can be really down on Greenwald and Snowden, and likewise I can see how good honest and honorable Duers can be really down on Obama and Kerry. It's a complicated issue, and therefore I'm not willing to join either tribe.

The one thing I don't really understand or can't really support is condemning those who are in the other tribe as somehow dishonest or disingenuous.

Bryant

[ProSense]

1. The reason

"This issue has heated up again, due to Kerrys unfortunate remarks. That said - it seems like for a significant number of people on both sides of the debate, you need to pick one over the other. You need to join a tribe - either the tribe that supports Snowden and Greenwald or the tribe that supports Obama. "

...Kerry's comments "heated" things up again is because Snowden fans expected his claims to go unchallenged by anyone with the stature to do so. Kerry's statements were similar to what many other Democrats have said.

Snowden is the coward

Expecting any administration official to coddle Snowden is letting a bias get the best of logic

Snowden and his lawyers know he broke the law. Snowden knows the extent of the information he took, as he admitted tonight. He screwed uu. He's a fugitive. He's not some fragile kid, and no one should expect that he'd be treated with kid gloves.

It's interesting to see Kerry being thrown under a bus for calling out a self-confessed spy who stole government documents (some admittedly damaging) and fled the country. What did people expect Kerry to say?

Demanding or suggesting he return to the U.S. to be held accountable is not unusual. Kerry has earned the right to make that call.

Like it or not, Snowden dug himself into a deeper hole with last night's interview.

During the interview, he sounded like an idiot and most of his claims were absurd. I mean, the fool admitted, in his own words, that he took damaging information and distributed it and the only thing he has as a defense is that the recipients promised not to reveal the information.

9) Snowden didn’t deny turning over secrets that would be damaging or harmful. He only said journalists have a deal with him not to do it. Just a reminder: we really have no idea how many reporters or organizations have copies of the documents or the total number of documents (it’s a Greenwald/Snowden secret), but we do know that Snowden documents have been reported by so many publications that the question arises: who doesn’t have Snowden documents?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025017514

[el_bryanto]

5. And yet - I still don't to join your tribe. But I salute the speediness of your response. nt

[ProSense]

7. I don't belong to a "tribe," aka the "vast majority." LOL! n/t

[el_bryanto]

8. Oh clearly you do - but one of the articles of faith of your tribe is that you represent

the vast majority.

Actually that's an article of faith in both the Snowden/Greenwald tribe and the Obama tribe.

Bryant

[ProSense]

10. No, I don't. My theory

"Oh clearly you do - but one of the articles of faith of your tribe is that you represent the vast majority."

...is the "vast majority" has some people so scared to express their opinions that they resort to creating a both sides suck theory in order not to commit.

Snowden was never believeable.

[el_bryanto]

12. That works too - whatever you need to tell yourself to convince yourself that your tribe

is all pure and sunshine, and the other tribe is black-hearted scoundrels.

Bryant

[bigtree]

13. I agree that the 'tribe' nonsense is insulting and juvenile

. . . nothing more than an attempt to rationalize the poster's own particular bias. Being of several minds on the subject doesn't distinguish the poster at all; it just muddles the puddle where they stand.


I'm a full-on Snowden supporter, btw (Greenwald still suffers what almost every political writer does; he's hit and miss. Some good, some bad.)

[giftedgirl77]

2. Great response....

I don't understand where the God like complex comes from either side.

[Capt. Obvious]

3. And the first damn response to your OP

Rapid response today

[ProSense]

4. Hope you enjoyed it. Glad it caught your attention. n/t

[Capt. Obvious]

6. I don't read your posts

I just scroll past them. Usually it takes a while to scroll past.

[ProSense]

9. "I just scroll past them. Usually it takes a while to scroll past,"

and then post about them. LOL!

[Capt. Obvious]

11. Not always

LOL!

[malaise]

14. A very reasonable post n/t

[DirkGently]

15. Well the loopy theories are kind of all one side.

Snowden is a Commie defector. Greenwald did it all for fame and Rand Paul.

There was one about the Bush family somehow being behind the reporting.

There was a mountain of argument that FISA means nothing NSA does is illegal now. And how "metadata" is harmless, like light cigarettes.

All of that WAS disingenuous bullshit, all emanating from frantic, pointless Obama protectionism.

Nothing remotely parallel on the other side, which is basically just that it's good we've learned the things we have learned. No crazy fact twisting. No ludicrous conspiracy theories. No calls of treason and traitors and likely working for the Ruskies.

C'mon.

[Generic Other]

16. McCain and Romney are low bars for Obama to reach

but I would have to agree he surpassed them. This is not however high praise for his administration's accomplishments.