What if prostitution were legal?

[SCVDem]

How many Isla Vistas and how much violence against women could be avoided
If only the men had a legal option.

I am excusing no bad behavior. Just thinking about possible answers to address the
troubles some Men have before they lose it.

[sufrommich]

1. Nothing stopped Rodgers from hiring a prostitute. It's

about power, control, and acquiring status ,not sex.

[Katashi_itto]

3. In Rodgers case maybe. But what about other sex crimes?

I think it would have the potential to defuse a lot.

[sufrommich]

4. What other sex crimes?

[Katashi_itto]

5. Seriously?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Sex_crimes

[sufrommich]

9. Yeah,seriously. What sex crimes do you imagine

would go away if prostitution was legal?

[Katashi_itto]

11. Well, I can see what your mindset already is. Thanks!

[sufrommich]

13. What? You're the one claiming that legal prostitution

would "diffuse" sex crimes.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

33. and we are patiently waiting for him to espouse his infinite wisdom.

[Katashi_itto]

42. "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves,

and wiser people so full of doubts."

[Phlem]

54. +1

Excellent!





-p

[Tuesday Afternoon]

59. -1

[Phlem]

88. Oh, then to the wisest person on this board.

[Katashi_itto]

97. Obviously your certain of that

[Tuesday Afternoon]

58. yes, and I remain doubtful that I ever hear anything more wise than that from you. But, patiently -

I await ....

[uppityperson]

81. Serios question, which of those would be affected by having prostitution legalized beyond illegal pr

prostitution?

[uppityperson]

10. What other sex crimes do you mean?

Pedophilia? Rape/sexual assault? Incest? Statutory rape? I am serious, trying to figure out what type sex crime beyond hiring a prostitute could be defused by being able to hire a prostitute? Thanks

[Dorian Gray]

103. I'm curious, too.

I'm sure those pedophiles and statutory rapists would just stop having those impulses if they could just legally hire an of age prostitute! (Sarcasm)

[redqueen]

18. Why should a class of women be designated as having to serve hateful, violent men? nt

[Victor_c3]

49. Prostitutes are already out there and they already serve violent and hateful men

Making it legal would put it above the board and provide more protection for the prostitutes - or at least that would be my hope.

However, after just doing some reading, that isn't exactly happening in places where prostitution has been legalized. Germany legalized and regulated prostitution around 2000 and, sadly, little has improved for sex workers.

If you are interested, I found an decent article from Der Spiegel.

[url]http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/human-trafficking-persists-despite-legality-of-prostitution-in-germany-a-902533.html[/url]

Honestly, I haven't done enough reading on the impacts of legalization to have what I would call a thoroughly informed position on it.

[redqueen]

55. Thanks for posting that lnk. That is an excellent, excellent article. nt

[Raksha]

90. Excellent article - thanks for the link.

[MattBaggins]

51. That little detail always seems to elude them

[redqueen]

68. Which is why it has to be said repeatedly every time anyone proposes this idea.

It's disturbing that we still see it on DU as much as we do.

[MattBaggins]

72. If only I would raise my daughters to be vessels for

their dysfunctional sons.

Sounds so awesome.

[NCTraveler]

62. This. nt.

[MissMillie]

47. Sex crimes are not about sex

They're about power and control.

[cali]

91. and you would be wrong. Hasn't worked in Germany or other places in Europe.

[yeoman6987]

12. I think it should be

as long as it is only for 18 and above. I have always thought it was silly to put so much resources and money into catching two adults engaging in sex even if it is for a job (for the one of them). I mean seriously does it REALLY affect anyone? As long as the man or woman is not being forced, I think it should be legal.

[sufrommich]

22. I think it should be legal too. I just think it's

weird that anyone would think prostitution would alleviate sex crimes. I'm sure every human who's been raped will be relieved to know that their rapist wouldn't have had to rape them if prostitution was legal.

There isn't any expert in the criminal field who actually believe that rape is result of lack of sex and to imply it is,is victim blaming.

[yeoman6987]

26. Rape in my opinion

is for the very weak who sees themselves as needing power and be a "man". Rape is foul and hopefully will become extinct. Prostitution will not take away rapes as rape has nothing to do with sex.....although some people really believe it has everything to do with sex....scary.

[Art_from_Ark]

21. Nothing stopped Rodgers from hiring a prostitute? Really?

The fact that it's illegal just about everywhere except a few places in Nevada, and that hiring a prostitute is more than likely going to get the man doing the "hiring" caught in a sting operation, with his picture appearing in the "Who got arrested" section of the news and getting him subjected to public and private scorn, is enough to stop most men from attempting such a thing.

[sufrommich]

27. The lack of prostitutes has zilch to do with

sex crimes. Nada,and to claim it does is vile.

[yeoman6987]

30. Risking arrest from hiring a prostitute

is a much better option than going on a murder spree as he did. Not making light of your statement but just wanted to weight the options with conclusion.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

46. Rodgers was from a rich family.

I imagine if he'd wanted to, he could have spent every weekend out in Nevada, buying sex legally.

[Dorian Gray]

104. Or Amsterdam

[seaglass]

57. He said it would make him more of a loser if he had to pay while others got sex for free.

from his "manifesto"

Eventually, Sasha had to move out of Santa Barbara, and I decided not to have any more female counsellors. It has the same effect as hiring a prostitute, I imagine. It temporarily feels good for the moment, but afterward it makes one feel like a pathetic loser for having to hire a girl when other men could get the experience for free.

[Sissyk]

69. Wait a minute.

That is not a very good argument for legalizing prostitution.

If it being illegal is enough to stop most men from attempting such a thing, then tell me again why we need it legalized? I think you might want to re-think that.

[geek tragedy]

79. so what if he didn't? he murdered because he was a misogynist psycho

not becaues he couldnt experience an ejaculation

[gmoney]

80. He didn't like the idea…

I'd read that his folks had hired some "counselors" to basically hang out with him and help him with socialization. Two guys and a woman, IIRC, in sequence. He dismissed the woman because he said he felt like she was a prostitute paid to be with him. (And I'm guessing she wasn't Swedish Bikini Team hot enough for him.)

I'm guessing in the PUA crowd, paying for a prostitute is not acceptable, or at least "doesn't count."

[LittleBlue]

2. You've managed to do it

The topic that will finish off DU



(If it survives a jury)

[ProdigalJunkMail]

17. this would only work if prostitution

was legal in Olive Garden...

sP

[LadyHawkAZ]

70. Performed by bikini-wearing pit bulls who vape in public n/t

[ProdigalJunkMail]

76. the truth has been spoken here... nt

[Blue_Adept]

20. Because there'd be no male prostitutes?

Certainly those never existed.

[seabeyond]

24. your post has nothing to do with mine.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

37. you mention nothing about gender in your post.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

66. society is a group. it is by default a *WE* thing ---

we as in the general we.

the society we.

the unit that moves forward as one and is only as far as the slowest person.

some people in this thread are being deliberately obtuse.

[Skittles]

56. most of their customers are men

[Blue_Adept]

71. Sure, but they should be taken into account as well

But there's more out there than many think too.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2009/07/06/the-sex-lives-of-male-hookers.html

And of course female prostitutes who deal only in women as well.

The dominating one is of course women for men, but the conversation should include a bit more for a topic like this rather than cut on purely gender lines.

[Skittles]

83. the idea that women would be safer if prostitution was legal is ridiculous

and adding male prostitutes into the mix does not change that

[redqueen]

86. Succinct and accurate. nt

[L0oniX]

7. It is legal ...if you are in congress. They ! for money all the time.

[PowerToThePeople]

8. Even legal, it would still be cost prohibitive to many.

I do not think it would have solved his insecurity issues. In fact, only being able to get conjugal via a monetary exchange may have added to his issues above and beyond just going without via non cash transactions.

[MattBaggins]

52. We have a winner

He would have ended up killing prostitutes

[GeorgeGist]

14. What's the sex crime rate in Nevada ...

where prostitution is legal?

[Rozlee]

15. People hire prostitues all the time, whether they're illegal or not.

If he was a virgin, a call to an escort service or a stroll through a red light district would have ended that lickety-spit. He was bitter that women rejected him 'cause he was a loser. Granted, prostitution is a non-violent crime and cops should have better things to do than be hauling consenting adults into jail. Like waging the noble War on Drugs.

[redqueen]

16. Oh dear Goddess not this again.

No, being able to rent a woman's body as a masturbatory aid will not change this.

There are escorts, there are college students who are prostituting themselves, there is no shortage of disadvantaged individuals forced to sell sex to survive.

Being able to fuck prostituted women will not make men who think women are things they can own suddenly change their minds.

And furthermore, why should a class of women be designated as having to serve such hateful, Violent men, in order to protect the other class of wkmen from being harmed by those hateful, violent men?

[Whiskeytide]

19. Well, for one thing, Republican...

office holders and candidates would have to suffer a lot fewer scandals!!! (and, I guess, to be honest, a few Democrats as well).

I have generally supported legalization or at least decriminalization of the sex industry. It would be safer for the women involved, and would go a long way toward removing the criminal element from the equation. I know there are pros and cons, as with most everything, but I don't think you can ever eliminate the oldest profession as some would prefer. And the more we pass laws to drive it underground, the deeper it goes underground. At the very least, we should try to deal with it intelligently and rationally.

[seabeyond]

28. would go a long way toward removing the criminal element from the equation. I know there are pros an

i am not getting into this argument. or this thread for the mattter. but i saw this comment of yours on my way out.

no. you do not know the pros and cons if you are suggesting it would go a long way removing the criminal element from the equation.

the places that have made it legal have found exactly the opposite. they are trying to figure out how to correct this, right now.

[Whiskeytide]

43. I'll look into that when I have more time...

... you may be right. I am sure that any efforts to decriminalize the sex trade would spin off a host of additional problems that would have to be dealt with as well. But that IS the function of government, right? The current state of the law is as ineffective as the war on drugs and prohibition in the 1920s, if not more so.

My post was a little off topic from the OP's theory that legalizing prostitution might reduce the frequency of sex crimes. I don't think I agree with that. I was simply saying that it seems like a huge waste of time and resources to try and prohibit something that is probably not going away anytime soon, and that we could do a better job of dealing with it presently.

And maybe I'm being simplistic, but it seems to me that making prostitution a crime means that sex workers have to do it in the shadows of our society - making them more vulnerable to violence and much less likely to seek help when they need it. They often have to work under the so called "protection" of people who view them - and treat them - as profit centers, not people.

Its never a good thing if any sex worker is forced into the profession by circumstance. But it seems to be a colossal failure of our society if we then arrest and prosecute them. No easy answers to this one, but I'm pretty sure criminal prohibition is not the answer.

[Recursion]

23. Oh boy, this **** again

Sex is not something that women "have" and "give" to men. Sex work isn't a "release valve" for that problem; it exacerbates it.

[LisaLynne]

25. Honestly, this guy didn't just want sex.

He wanted access to any woman he found attractive. That's the basis of this sort of thinking. It's not about sex, IMHO, it's about control. People like him don't like it that women are allowed to say no and have control or be seen as just as good as men in society.

[Mr Dixon]

29. well now

Glad you had the balls to ask this question, can’t say it didn’t cross my mind, not sure it would help or hurt. IMO this kid was going to snap regardless.

[ismnotwasm]

31. It implies that men are slaves to their sex drives

That they gotta have it and women have to provide it. There a number of countries where prostitution is a legal. All with particular problems involved rape, trafficking ect you can look up yourself


But here, let's look at Nevada in the US

 The rape rate in Nevada has been consistently higher than national rates over time.
 Most arrests for sex offenses in Nevada in 2007 involve prostitution (77%) and only a small proportion of these arrests involve forcible rape (3%). Nationally, the relative proportion of arrests for rapes (13%) is higher and substantially lower for prostitution (42%).
 In Nevada, only about 21% of rapes known to the police are cleared by an arrest. Adult males are the most common arrestees for rape and a large majority of arrestees for prostitution are women.

Overall, these data provide no evidence that legalized prostitution may reduce sexual assaults by providing a legitimate outlet for sexual desires. The data are more consistent with the assertion that legalized prostitution may increase a woman’s risk of sexual victimization. Definitive statements about the prostitution/rape link cannot be made because of the large variability in rape rates among those rural counties with legalized prostitution and the lack of control for other factors that may explain these differences across jurisdictions.
43.7 41.5 Source: Crime and Justice in Nevada (2000 & 2007).

http://cacs.unlv.edu/SDBs/Rape/Rape%20in%20Nevada%20v4.pdf

[Tuesday Afternoon]

38. ^ this post is relevant to the OP ^ thank you ^

[etherealtruth]

32. It should be legal and laws should protect sex workers

However, I don't think that it would have factored in , in this case

[karadax]

34. The guy was craving an emotional relationship.

Being a virgin was mentioned but I don't believe it was as big of a motivator as the lack of a partner.

Prostitutes are business oriented. You pay you get you leave.

This guy would have easily lashed out at a prostitute he had feelings over instead of sorority girls. He still would have killed. His mental capacity still in question.

[sufrommich]

39. He wasn't craving an emotional relationship.He

was craving what he considered an appropriate human symbol for his perceived status. He made that very clear in his manifesto.

[Xyzse]

35. I don't believe it would stop such a thing.

It is cost prohibitive, and in many of such cases, it is about power and getting what they want from who they want.

Saying that, there are some merits to such a thing, and many negatives. Some of the positives would be:

1 - A more open environment taking it out of the Black Market which would take away the more violent pimps out of business.
2 - If it is made in to an actual profession, it would mean they are now male and female in it as professionals which means testing. STDs would be more controlled, and there is licensing involved.

I don't know if I would advocate for such a thing. Even if it were legal, there would still probably be less than legal services out there, for those who do not wish to pay fees for license and other things.

However, it would limit the two parts I mentioned.

Then again, I tend to like the European systems better, since they seem to be a bit more open about things and easy going, which allows them to tackle such contentious issues such as this with more empathy.

So, I don't know... All I know is, using this as a backdoor point for allowing such a thing is a non-starter. This is not the issue on this guy. To me, the issue with him is him being overly privileged, thinking things should be easy.

[redqueen]

40. If you look at human trafficking rates in Holland,

you'll find that legalizing prostitution does not put pimps out of business.

Far from it. It makes business easier for them.

[Xyzse]

44. You're right.

I don't know enough about this subject and I was postulating.

The only thing certain I had in that post of mine, is that even if it were, it wouldn't stop or limit such a crime, since it isn't about access, it is getting what they want on who they want.

[redqueen]

48. Yep, exactly.

And since this man was hateful and violent, the idea that there should be a class of women who should act as a buffer between this kind of man and another class of women, using their bodies as that buffer, is very disturbing to me.

[Brickbat]

36. Vaginas are powerful, but not that powerful.

Getting laid would not have helped him.

[leftstreet]

41. Hell! Why not make it mandatory?

Two years mandatory service from those hot HOT ladies this nutter couldn't get his hands on otherwise! Problem solved

for the impaired:


Jeesh I can't believe the contortions and distortions going around holding women responsible for this guy's crimes

[ismnotwasm]

45. Word

To coin an old slang term

[Sissyk]

50. I think prostitution should be legal.

But, I don't think it would have made a damn bit of difference in this case. IMO, he is a psychopath and if it had not of been misogyny it would have been something else.

PS. I was lead to this thread by jury duty.

[WinkyDink]

53. I can't believe such balderdasherie is being posited here. THERE IS NO CONNECTION.

We are a sick, sick culture, a death-driven, wealth-worshipping culture. Quick! Name a poet, a raconteur, a painter, a Classical musician---who has been on television within the last year. They USED to be, with opera singers, Broadway stars, authors, and scientists. Now, it's vapid creatures of sex-tape notoriety.

We encourage young females to wear nothing and then criticize them for not becoming Nobel Prize winners. We encourage young males to become rich and powerful and then wonder why they don't grow up to be generous and kind.

Don't get me started.

[LadyHawkAZ]

60. The only definite effect would be on the ability to report violence

against workers themselves when it happens, without the threat of jail time. There's been some data to suggest a correlation between legalization and a drop in rape, but it's never been proved to be a causative factor so I'd take it with a large grain of salt. I support legalization, don't get me wrong, but there are more than enough reasons to support it without grasping at this type of straw.

[bettyellen]

61. prostitues are already beaten, raped and murdered at higher rates than all women.

[NCTraveler]

63. I wish you were smart enough to understand your own op.

You would be disgusted.

[Proud Public Servant]

64. Prostitution is ubiquitous

What do you imagine? That there are guys who think, "guess I have to buy some guns and kill a bunch of people, since the only alternative is risking a charge of misdemeanor solicitation"?

Neither the Isla Vista shooting, nor any sex crime, is about sex. It's about power, control, and dominance. And it's about asserting those things, not receiving them as your end of an equitable economic exchange. That is why legalized prostitution is irrelevant to this question.

[Gormy Cuss]

65. What if masturbation were legal?

Oh wait. It is, and it's DIY.

[Douglas Carpenter]

67. I support legalizing prostitution because I believe in freedom - but I doubt that it would make any

difference as far as incidents like Isla Vistas or other gratuitous violence is concerned

[redqueen]

73. The article linked at this post is well worth reading.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5018916

[ismnotwasm]

77. Yup

It doesn't take much research to reveal,legalized prostitution as a huge fail, other than the Nordic model

[Gravitycollapse]

93. There is no term of greater vacuousness in history than freedom.

Because it means absolutely nothing when expressed so belligerently.

What kind of freedom? Be specific.

[Douglas Carpenter]

96. the right of consenting adults to freely enter into mutual agreements

Should there be regulations, standards and protections? Of course. But I am still against tyranny even if wrapped under the guise of all being for the public's good. Following that logic we should certainly ban authoritarian forms of religion or at least ban exposing children to them. But the greater principle of freedom still prevails so we don't do that. We can all find lots of things that we don't like and we are absolutely certain are bad for the public and then seek to ban them. For example, I don't like prostitution. But it's none of my fucking business.

[Violet_Crumble]

99. Totally agree. Here's the law where I live....

http://www.legislation.act.gov.au/a/1992-64/current/pdf/1992-64.pdf

I'm suspecting the regulations and protections in that bit of law are what yr talking about, and I don't see how anyone could be opposed to legislation like that..

[Douglas Carpenter]

105. that looks like sensible legislation

[MadrasT]

74. Last I heard, masturbation was a perfectly legal option.

Women are not on this earth to be men's semen receptacles.

[geek tragedy]

75. Oh jesus. "if only men had the option" funny how when a man

goes on a murder rampage, the reaction some have is to make sure that we should change our legal system to cater to men's demands and sense of entitlement.

sickening

[freeplessinseattle]

78. Then there might well be some dead sex workers

They can reject weirdos too, believe it or not, and are probably more in tune with red flags.

Moot point anyway, since sexual frustration is a very common concern, yet somehow the vast majority manage to deal with it without violence. Go figure.

[bluestateguy]

82. First of all, it is legal

In Nevada. And the Rodger boy had the means to make the field trip to Nevada to pay for what he had not yet experienced. He seemed to think he was above having to do that, so that's his problem.

Anyway, I think the Nevada model works, but that it is a policy that should be left for state and local governments to establish.

[Xolodno]

84. Legalizing Prostitution would definately solve the crime...

...of Prostitution.

Going a step further and having it regulated and taxed in theory....

1. Would cut down the spread of VD.
2. Improve the health and well being of Female and Male workers in the worlds oldest profession.
3. Taxes generated would pay for the regulation and health care.
4. Mandatory Psychiatric evaluations could identify problem workers and get them help.

As for anything else...highly unlikely. Save a drunk hormone raged individual who would take it a step to far in a "bar date"..but brain kicks in enough he/she takes a cab to the legalized brothel....maybe.


Of course...you will have opponents:

Vice departments in Police (significant budget cuts).

Pimp's/Johns (they make a lot of unreported income).

Religious Nuts (Need the underground market to "hide their tracks&quot .

Socially...how shall I say it...Prude? Morally thinking superior?...individuals who believe its their duty to impose their "morality" on you.

Politicians who want no record of their "loose lifestyle" etc.

[redqueen]

87. Actually, pimps advocate for the legalization of prostitution.

If you want to know why, read the piece linked here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5018916

[ConnorMarc]

89. I Come From A Culture Where Prostitution Is Legal

And I've been living in America now more than half of my life.

I came here as a teenager and I can tell the differences of cultures.

America has a puritan culture, it can't escape from it, at least not yet, and that culture is evident in it's laws.

Therefore it is hard to see how having legal prostitution would result in fewer sex crimes for many folks, including many who are self-professed liberals.

It would.

Common sense dictates that removing the illegality of it would greatly reduce not only sex crimes, but crime in general.

Of course this wouldn't eliminate it, but it would have an effect.

Over time of course. I started my response as I did for a reason, to factor in the Puritan American culture, which would have an effect on how the populate responds to laws. Due to America's puritanical culture, sex is viewed as dirty, and this feeling permeates throughout the culture. Just look at the ratings of television and big screen movies. Blood and gore and rampant violence is much, much, much, much more acceptable to the American sensibilities than some sex.

If America were to legalize prostitution, it would take some time to permeate the culture and normalize.

Europeans have a culture that doesn't have such a puritanical view of sex, hence they can have nude beaches everywhere, no problem. In fact, it's not even called a "nude beach" it's just a beach. That's because nudity is normalized. It's not normalized here, so even if it were in some places, it would be seen as some rare, special or racy thing. ie. legal prostitution in CERTAIN parts of Nevada.

I saw some posts about the sex crime rates where prostitution is legal and how it didn't drop the crime rates, but raised them.

I'd like to see some evidence of that, because I'm not buying it.

[Violet_Crumble]

98. So do I, and I agree with you on the cultural thing...

There's varying laws in different states here, but in mine it's legal and well-regulated by the government. Have you ever seen 'Cops'? I was really shocked to see prostitutes out on the street and being arrested by cops. I've never seen a prostitute out on the street here, and sex workers here have the same working protections and rights as other workers. I really don't get the mindset of anyone who claims to care about women (and let's face it, they do make up the majority of sex workers), yet wants to keep prostitution illegal and sex workers without any protection.

I don't agree with the OP at all, though, as like many others in this thread, I see no connection between sex work and reducing sex crimes.

[lovemydog]

101. Yes, puritanism and repression

are two factors that contribute to, rather than reduce, the violence in the United States. I've lived in different countries in Europe. And traveled throughout many parts of the world. I agree with you that the strong strain of puritanism in the USA leads to a great deal of repression. I'm in favor of legalizing prostitution. For the simple reason that it can then be more carefully regulated and made safer for all concerned. It would reduce human trafficking. And lead to more humane and better working conditions for all involved. Thank you for your post. Welcome to DU. Have fun here!

[AgingAmerican]

92. If it were done right

If the girls kept their own money and it was conducted in a veritably safe manor, then I wouldn't care. I don't, however, believe the availability of legal prostitutes would help people like that Elliot Rodger guy.

[m-lekktor]

94. you obviously didn't read his "manifesto".

he never would have paid for it. that would have been beneath him. he was upset that women weren't naturally drawn to his magnificence (his word to describe himself).

[Heidi]

95. If he wasn't worried about the illegality of killing people, why do you think he

would have worried about the illegality of prostitution?

[Laelth]

100. I appreciate the spirit of this OP.

We need to be thinking along the lines of "what should we do?" That said, there's a whole body of case law (in most states) on this subject that would be affected by such a change (especially marriage/divorce/child custody law). That case law says sex can not be "consideration" for a binding contract. That, for one thing, would have to change.

I have not fully explored the implications of this proposal, but it would be a much trickier proposition that most imagine.

-Laelth

[Dorian Gray]

102. I don't think legalized

prostitution would have changed anything for Rodger. He would have just been seething that he had to pay for it.

And I suspect more trafficking and other horrendous crimes against women would increase. See Amsterdam.