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G_j

(40,366 posts)
Thu May 29, 2014, 11:35 AM May 2014

Why It’s So Hard for Men to See Misogyny

http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2014/05/_yesallwomen_in_the_wake_of_elliot_rodger_why_it_s_so_hard_for_men_to_recognize.html

Men were surprised by #YesAllWomen because men don’t see what women experience.

By Amanda Hess

<snip>

Another rude awakening played out on social media this weekend as news of Rodger’s attack spread around the world. When women took to Twitter to share their own everyday experiences with men who had reduced them to sexual conquests and threatened them with violence for failing to comply—filing their anecdotes under the hashtag #YesAllWomen—some men joined in to express surprise at these revelations, which amassed more quickly than observers could digest. How can some men manage to appear polite, kind, even “wonderful” in public while perpetuating sexism under the radar of other men’s notice? And how could this dynamic be so obvious to so many women, yet completely foreign to the men in their lives? Some #YesAllWomen contributors suggested that men simply aren’t paying attention to misogyny. Others claimed that they deliberately ignore it. There could also be a performative aspect to this public outpouring of male shock—a man who expresses his own lack of awareness of sexism implicitly absolves himself of his own contributions to it.

<snip>

The night after the murders, I was at a backyard party in New York, talking with a female friend, when a drunk man stepped right between us. “I was thinking the exact same thing,” he said. As we had been discussing pay discrepancies between male and female journalists, we informed him that this was unlikely. But we politely endured him as he dominated our conversation, insisted on hugging me, and talked too long about his obsession with my friend’s hair. I escaped inside, and my friend followed a few minutes later. The guy had asked for her phone number, and she had declined, informing him that she was married and, by the way, her husband was at the party. “Why did I say that? I wouldn’t have been interested in him even if I weren’t married,” she told me. “Being married was, like, the sixth most pressing reason you weren’t into him,” I said. We agreed that she had said this because aggressive men are more likely to defer to another man’s domain than to accept a woman’s autonomous rejection of him.

<snip>

These are forms of male aggression that only women see. But even when men are afforded a front seat to harassment, they don’t always have the correct vantage point for recognizing the subtlety of its operation. Four years before the murders, I was sitting in a bar in Washington, D.C. with a male friend. Another young woman was alone at the bar when an older man scooted next to her. He was aggressive, wasted, and sitting too close, but she smiled curtly at his ramblings and laughed softly at his jokes as she patiently downed her drink. “Why is she humoring him?” my friend asked me. “You would never do that.” I was too embarrassed to say: “Because he looks scary” and “I do it all the time.”

Women who have experienced this can recognize that placating these men is a rational choice, a form of self-defense to protect against setting off an aggressor. But to male bystanders, it often looks like a warm welcome, and that helps to shift blame in the public eye from the harasser and onto his target, who’s failed to respond with the type of masculine bravado that men more easily recognize. Two weeks before the murders, Louis C.K.—who has always recognized pervasive male violence against women in his stand-up—spelled out how this works in an episode of Louie, where he recalls watching a man and a woman walking together on a date. “He goes to kiss her, and she does an amazing thing that women somehow learn how to do—she hugged him very warmly. Men think this is affection, but what this is is a boxing maneuver.” Women “are better at rejecting us than we are,” C.K. said. “They have the skills to reject men in the way that we can then not kill them.”

..more..
46 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Why It’s So Hard for Men to See Misogyny (Original Post) G_j May 2014 OP
for the same reason you lump all men into one group...... nt Cryptoad May 2014 #1
Great well thought out response el_bryanto May 2014 #2
Bravo, bryanto! lapislzi May 2014 #8
LOL, yes more "gender warrior"ing . shoot first, educate yourself never. bettyellen May 2014 #21
offering some astute observations G_j May 2014 #3
Honestly? leftyladyfrommo May 2014 #4
As they say AgingAmerican May 2014 #9
I didn't say that. leftyladyfrommo May 2014 #20
Amen to that n/t PasadenaTrudy May 2014 #24
Some especially good quotes from this article: raccoon May 2014 #5
Yes, it does make a huge difference. Jamastiene May 2014 #35
Back in the 80's when I was in azmom May 2014 #6
Your point? HangOnKids May 2014 #12
No point. Just azmom May 2014 #15
This Makes No Sense HangOnKids May 2014 #16
My family also azmom May 2014 #17
I'm going to friend him azmom May 2014 #18
I would not reach out to anyone who exhibited stalker tendencies.... bettyellen May 2014 #22
That would be a mistake, imo. Jamastiene May 2014 #36
I haven't really spoken to anyone azmom May 2014 #44
I think it was that a seemingly "nice guy" sort of stalked her and tried to make her feel bad for no bettyellen May 2014 #29
You are right azmom May 2014 #42
I've had that happen treestar May 2014 #31
That's so true. azmom May 2014 #41
It's hard for anyone, generally, to perceive something that doesn't directly impact them. nomorenomore08 May 2014 #7
For the same reason ... 1StrongBlackMan May 2014 #10
I'm putting SOME in all caps too these days. bettyellen May 2014 #23
Yeah ... 1StrongBlackMan May 2014 #25
I had a nightmare last night, and it was because of something I said on DU randys1 May 2014 #27
Because it makes men so uncomfortable that we are supposed to change the subject... Hekate May 2014 #11
K & R n/t TheJames May 2014 #13
K&R nt redqueen May 2014 #14
I imagine some men who don't see misogyny Sweet Freedom May 2014 #19
Wow, how simplistic and narrow minded. 'MEN"? maced666 May 2014 #26
LOL. Just don't GOD FORBID, comment on the CONTENT of the OP instead of attemting to nit pick it bettyellen May 2014 #28
Again with the false equivalencies YoungDemCA May 2014 #45
Related: I Am Not an Angry Feminist. I'm a Furious One. redqueen May 2014 #30
I relate to so much of this, liberalhistorian May 2014 #32
one time I lied RainDog May 2014 #38
Generalization are not how adults discuss issues. applegrove May 2014 #33
I definitely would not say it is all men. Jamastiene May 2014 #34
I read that article the other day RainDog May 2014 #37
I hope your hate makes you feel better about yourself....... whistler162 May 2014 #39
LOL RainDog May 2014 #40
To the men who get defensive and angry whenever this topic comes up YoungDemCA May 2014 #43
This is a good article... one_voice May 2014 #46

el_bryanto

(11,804 posts)
2. Great well thought out response
Thu May 29, 2014, 12:29 PM
May 2014

I really appreciate the time you took to grapple with the ideas put forth in Amanda Hess's article, and boiled it down to a simple yet effective response. You really should be proud of yourself for standing up for Men, because God knows how rough we have it. I mean as men we should be allowed to harass and push around any woman we want, and thank goodness you are out there fighting the good fight.

I mean I assume that's what you are fighting for - since the article is about how woman are experiencing regular harassment, and you dismissed it with your brilliantly pithy statement.

Unless, wait, you read the article didn't you?

Bryant

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
21. LOL, yes more "gender warrior"ing . shoot first, educate yourself never.
Fri May 30, 2014, 10:46 AM
May 2014

The ignorance demonstrated in responses from SOME men is astounding.

G_j

(40,366 posts)
3. offering some astute observations
Thu May 29, 2014, 12:35 PM
May 2014

that many men could learn something from, is not an attack on men.

leftyladyfrommo

(18,861 posts)
4. Honestly?
Thu May 29, 2014, 12:37 PM
May 2014

I think men view the world thru a whole different lens than women do. I think the culprit is testosterone. The men I have known viewed things from a much more sexual viewpoint than I ever have. And it makes a huge difference. And I'm not sure there is any way to change that.

Most of the women I know are not sexual all of the time. They have to play a whole lot of non sexual roles in their lives.

It gets so tiresome trying to deal with sexual innuendo about everything and every topic. I can't tell you how many times men have said the most inappropriate sexual things to me when they didn't even know me. And I don't like it any better from men who do know me.

I want to be taken seriously.

leftyladyfrommo

(18,861 posts)
20. I didn't say that.
Fri May 30, 2014, 10:27 AM
May 2014

Obviously there are plenty of very smart men. It's just that their view of the world is a lot different than a woman's. And that is probably a very good thing.

I don't want to have to deal with unwanted sexual undertones. I am not interested in sex except with my partner. I don't think that unwanted behavior is sexy or cute or macho. It is only irritating and extremely condescending.

raccoon

(31,105 posts)
5. Some especially good quotes from this article:
Thu May 29, 2014, 12:48 PM
May 2014
Men who objectify and threaten women often strategically obscure their actions from other men, taking care to harass women when other men aren’t around.

We agreed that she had said (that she was married) because aggressive men are more likely to defer to another man’s domain than to accept a woman’s autonomous rejection of him.

When I paused outside a convenience store to stretch, a man sitting at a bus stop across the street from me began yelling obscene comments about my body. When my boyfriend came out of the convenience store, he shut up.

Jamastiene

(38,187 posts)
35. Yes, it does make a huge difference.
Fri May 30, 2014, 06:08 PM
May 2014

There are men who will specifically ask a woman if she is alone at a public place. You always wonder why they'd ask such a question, until you find out why. If you tell them you are with somebody, they back off. If you tell them you are alone, they act completely different in most of those cases.

azmom

(5,208 posts)
6. Back in the 80's when I was in
Thu May 29, 2014, 12:53 PM
May 2014

High school this nice guy told my friend that he liked me and I told her to tell him I wasn't interested. I was shy and did not date throughout high school. Three years after graduation he came to my workplace to tell me how successful he was while I was still working retail and had gotten fat.

azmom

(5,208 posts)
15. No point. Just
Thu May 29, 2014, 03:02 PM
May 2014

Wanted to tell of my experience. I was really young and this guy scared me. I remembered him as a nice guy, but that day at my workplace he was really threatening. He's now on facebook, I want to friend him and remind him of what he did. I hope he matured.

 

HangOnKids

(4,291 posts)
16. This Makes No Sense
Thu May 29, 2014, 03:07 PM
May 2014

He was threatening and demeaning to you but you now want to friend him? Really? Cool story bro!

azmom

(5,208 posts)
18. I'm going to friend him
Thu May 29, 2014, 04:06 PM
May 2014

Right now. I really want to know if he remembers this incident. I still remember it very clearly and it happened a long time ago. I remember him as a nice guy and I have always wondered why he did that to me.

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
22. I would not reach out to anyone who exhibited stalker tendencies....
Fri May 30, 2014, 10:49 AM
May 2014

Remember, he had a hard time letting go of his "grievance" last time.
Don't do it. Trust me, not worth it.

Jamastiene

(38,187 posts)
36. That would be a mistake, imo.
Fri May 30, 2014, 06:12 PM
May 2014

If he came to you three years later to be a jerk to you, he's got a chip on his shoulder. That's not a good sign. Befriending him on FB will show him private things about your life and possibly subject you to all kinds of new harassment from him. I'd block him instead, but that's just me.

And yes, this is an example of what women have to think about, for those who do not understand what misogyny is. We have to constantly think in terms of our own protection, just because we are female.

azmom

(5,208 posts)
44. I haven't really spoken to anyone
Fri May 30, 2014, 09:31 PM
May 2014

About this other than my family. You are right. I am going to put this behind me. He was and maybe still I'd a jerk.

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
29. I think it was that a seemingly "nice guy" sort of stalked her and tried to make her feel bad for no
Fri May 30, 2014, 11:18 AM
May 2014

real reason at all. Aside from the fact he dealt with rejection in a very poor way. And hung on to his grievence much too long.
Who does shit like that? People we should stay away from.

You're right though, she should avoid this guy like the plauge. He's not mentally mature, it is not good to do what he did.

azmom

(5,208 posts)
42. You are right
Fri May 30, 2014, 09:28 PM
May 2014

I guess I always wanted an answer as to why he did what he did but this had way more to do about him than me. My regret is not saying anything at the time. I was just so surprised by the whole thing. I just stood there wondering what the hell was going on and then wondering what I had done to cause it.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
31. I've had that happen
Fri May 30, 2014, 11:22 AM
May 2014

They want you to feel like you lost out. Is their woman lucky? No, because he's using her as a trophy.

azmom

(5,208 posts)
41. That's so true.
Fri May 30, 2014, 09:21 PM
May 2014

He did get lots of success touring with Janet Jackson and now has married into the Jackson family.
Trophy wife for sure. I'll take the advice and not friend him. the whole thing was really unsettling because I would never have thought of him other than a nice guy, but he wasn't. I still want to think of him being a nice guy, but you are right he wasn't then and maybe he isn't now. I won't take that chance. I have a great family and too much too lose. Thank you.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
7. It's hard for anyone, generally, to perceive something that doesn't directly impact them.
Thu May 29, 2014, 01:33 PM
May 2014

Which only highlights the need for empathy and understanding.

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
10. For the same reason ...
Thu May 29, 2014, 02:36 PM
May 2014

It’s So Hard for white folks ... wait, pre-emptive correction ... SOME white folks to see white privilege ... it works to their advantage not to.

randys1

(16,286 posts)
27. I had a nightmare last night, and it was because of something I said on DU
Fri May 30, 2014, 11:01 AM
May 2014

I said that my brother and father were both misogynists (my dad is no longer with us but brother is)

I shouldnt have said that, my father was from a generation where this was commonplace, I dont want to blame him for something he really had no clue about, my brother is a different situation.

I shouldnt have mentioned either of them on here, but i did.

I am sorry dad, you did the best you could given the framework you had...

Oh, and to the OP, awesome observations...If only all men were as enlightened...

Hekate

(90,496 posts)
11. Because it makes men so uncomfortable that we are supposed to change the subject...
Thu May 29, 2014, 02:37 PM
May 2014

... to spare their feelings.

Because we're responsible for their feelings.


for I.V.

Sweet Freedom

(3,995 posts)
19. I imagine some men who don't see misogyny
Thu May 29, 2014, 04:12 PM
May 2014

like everything just the way it is and don't want changes implemented that hold them accountable for their bad manners and bad behavior.

 

maced666

(771 posts)
26. Wow, how simplistic and narrow minded. 'MEN"?
Fri May 30, 2014, 10:55 AM
May 2014

As if men could possibly be degraded down to a group identity with a broad brush statement. Not even the old 'not all men of course' is enough to make up for this idiocy.
Wonder if the author would ever try to corner women into a think-group corner this way...

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
28. LOL. Just don't GOD FORBID, comment on the CONTENT of the OP instead of attemting to nit pick it
Fri May 30, 2014, 11:09 AM
May 2014

into oblivion.

 

YoungDemCA

(5,714 posts)
45. Again with the false equivalencies
Fri May 30, 2014, 09:34 PM
May 2014

And nowhere did the author say that all men can't see misogyny. Generalization is inevitable when talking about large social groups.

liberalhistorian

(20,814 posts)
32. I relate to so much of this,
Fri May 30, 2014, 11:27 AM
May 2014

and boy do I remember the times that I had to ask a male friend to pretend to be my "boyfriend" or even "husband" to get an aggressive, obnoxious entitled wanna-be "suitor" who wouldn't take a polite no for an answer to leave me alone at a party/gathering. Most of the women I know are very familiar with having to perform that little "trick". Once, said long-time male friend was a DJ at a reception and an obnoxious drunk kept trying to put his hands on me, demanding my phone number and that I dance only with him. My friend saw the situation right away when I asked him to pretend to be my "boyfriend", and said he actually saw a lot of similar situations in his work. And it doesn't even stop once you're married, frankly, except that now I really don't have to "lie" about having a husband or boyfriend.

RainDog

(28,784 posts)
38. one time I lied
Fri May 30, 2014, 07:53 PM
May 2014

to a very large college football player who had come to my city to visit me that I had just had an abortion in order to avoid sex with him... as in, it was medically not possible.

...later a female friend of mine called me to ask how I was doing after my "abortion" and I then realized he had told people I had had an abortion... when this was never the case.

but I only said that after he wouldn't take all kinds of "nos" for answers.

Jamastiene

(38,187 posts)
34. I definitely would not say it is all men.
Fri May 30, 2014, 06:03 PM
May 2014

There are quite a few men, who of course have never experienced misogyny, who do understand that women go through a lot of shit.

But, those who don't get it, REALLY don't get it. They are the problem.

RainDog

(28,784 posts)
37. I read that article the other day
Fri May 30, 2014, 06:22 PM
May 2014

Hess is doing some good work regarding this issue.

The reality is this: members of marginalized groups in society know more about the workings, lives and outlooks of those who are part of the power structures. This holds true whether it's race, women, sexual orientation, religion... and on and on.

Those who are part of the majority or part of the power structure (as Hess notes, women make up half the population, but this does not show up in the gender of those represented to serve in the legislature) have the... yes, privilege of maintaining ignorance about the experience of others outside their group.

Women have to develop ways to avoid the anger and/or violence of men when those men feel rejected as a defense against those same males. This, to me, is something that is often unspoken, learned from experience, but is as true as "the talk" African Americans have to give to their children, especially sons, about how to avoid being harmed by the police or, frankly, any person who reacts to them based upon false assumptions about them.

RainDog

(28,784 posts)
40. LOL
Fri May 30, 2014, 08:22 PM
May 2014

that schtick is so old. The entire OP was a quote from a writer, Amanda Hess.

If you bothered to read the article, you would see that your quote is sort of "Elliot-y" and not at all about about the issue in the article.

 

YoungDemCA

(5,714 posts)
43. To the men who get defensive and angry whenever this topic comes up
Fri May 30, 2014, 09:29 PM
May 2014

Why can't you listen to the perspectives of women, including the women in this very thread? Why is this so difficult for you to do?

I am of the male gender, yet I at least try to understand, to listen, to have empathy and compassion for the countless women who are constantly being demeaned, bullied, harassed, groped, and shamed by men for the crime of being women.

Maybe ignorance is willful in this case....

one_voice

(20,043 posts)
46. This is a good article...
Fri May 30, 2014, 09:49 PM
May 2014

a lot of truth there.

Sloppy drunk men can be some of the most aggressive and are often difficult to 'shake'. Sometimes if they're with a group of guys the other guys will step in and get control of them. While it doesn't happen all the time it is happening more and more. It seems the more men are learning about things like this the more they are becoming aware and stepping in. Awareness is the key.

Men need to think about how they would feel if it was their mother, daughter, sister, etc. I think that puts in a different light for them.

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