"Man up" is not sexist. Its just a figure of speech. It doesn't denigrate women.

[phleshdef]

Man up owes its early popularization to another American sport: football, where it originally had a more technical meaning relating to man-to-man pass defense. In 1985, for example, the New York Jets head coach Joe Walton praised the work of his defensive coordinator to The Times: “They’re playing the kind of defense that I wanted and that Bud Carson teaches — aggressive, man up, getting after it, hustling all over the field.” A year before that, a high-school coach in Texas previewed a coming game for the local paper, The Baytown Sun, by saying, “We’re expecting them to use an eight-man front with their secondary manning up on us.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/05/magazine/05FOB-onlanguage-t.html?_r=0

This is one of those things where people are looking way too hard for something to be angry over. Its a stupid hill to die on and for anyone sincerely interested in women's rights issues, its a case of choosing your battles very unwisely.

I consider myself a strong advocate for women's rights. I'm pro-choice. I'm pro-equal pay for equal work. I'm deeply concerned about issues where women tend to be the disproportionate victims, whether it be rape, domestic abuse, sexual trafficking/sexual slavery and many other things where women are getting a raw deal... not just in this country but all over the globe. These are worthy battles. These are real problems that deserve our full attention.

In terms of our own country, the conservative side of American political ideology would love to subjugate women beneath men as much as possible. They see placing women on equal footing economically, socially and in positions of leadership as a threat to the way they think people should live. We should be fighting that and not be getting twisted in knots over trivial figures of speech or the fact that some woman is looking "sexy" on a magazine cover.

I just think this kind of stuff makes us all look rather silly and it makes it harder to take us serious and does no justice when it comes to fighting the relevant, important, impactful issues regarding women and the shitty things they have to put up with.

[MineralMan]

1. Actually, it is exactly a sexist figure of speech.

It, and "grow a pair" are about as sexist as it goes. It's sexist by the very words it uses.

I think you are incorrect.

[phleshdef]

8. I'm sorry, I just think you're silly on this. And I respect your point of view on a lot of issues.

To attempt to marginalize sexism to a debate about trivial BS like this does nothing for real causes where sexist attitudes and sexist actions harm women in palpable, meaningful ways.

When it comes to figures of speech, mainstream understanding is everything. There is no widely held mainstream view that considers "man up" to be a phrase with sexist intentions. And that pretty much trumps everything else. Intentions are what matter, not the words themselves.

I bring up this same point when discussing the N word. When a white person calls a black person that word, its widely understood that its meant to be denigrating and is based on racist intentions. When a black person calls another friend a variation of that word, its widely understood to mean a term of comradery and not has racist intentions behind it.

[MineralMan]

18. Words are amazing things. They mean stuff.

"Man up" is such a simple phrase. Two words. The first word is a noun used as a verb. "Man" can be a verb, as in to "man the helm," but it's used differently in this phrase. It is treated as a really good and desirable thing to act like a man. So much so that it becomes the verb in this common sexist figure of speech.

The simplest figures of speech are often the most powerful. And this one is used to encourage people to do the stereotypical "manly" thing in whatever situation it is used. If someone is displaying emotion or crying, he might be told to "Man up," meaning to act like a man, rather than a woman. In fact, that's one of its most common usages.

"Man up!" Be brave. Be angry. Be aggressive. Be, well, you know "manly."

Yes, it's a sexist figure of speech. It's used in the same situation as "Grow a pair!"

It's exclusive. You don't tell a woman to "man up" or to "grow a pair."

It's sexist on its face. I find it offensive, most of the time when I hear it. Your mileage may differ, of course.

[phleshdef]

24. Actually I've personally witnessed women telling other women to "man up" or "grow a pair".

Its very common. And may have a regional component to it as well.

And I'm sorry, but you can't explain the meaning of a figure of speech by going on dictionary definitions alone. Mainstream understanding of what a certain phrase intends to say is more important and we do not have a mainstream understanding in our American English that "man up" insists that men are superior to women. That's just not how we mean it 99.9% of the time.

[MineralMan]

28. I believe you are incorrect in the message that "Man up" sends.

Perhaps that's worth thinking about for a moment or two. Or perhaps not.

In any case, I have made my opinion known in your thread, for whatever it is worth. I see no benefit in extending the conversation any further.

[CTyankee]

32. well,then, how about "put your big boy/big girl pants on." ?

women are often told to put their big girl pants on...men are given the ole "man up".

[phleshdef]

39. Yes, theres a ton of phrases people could have this debate over.

And it ultimately ends up just getting silly.

[TheFrenchRazor]

63. yes, it's because women grow up in a male dominated culture and the don't see the sexism just like

a fish doesn't see the water. heck, in the 1800's in america there were plenty of women who thought women had "all the rights they needed." thank god that ignorance did not deter the stronger minded women of the day.

[onenote]

70. Is telling a man to "be manly" or "be a man" also sexist?

I'm guessing some think it is. And some don't think it is.

[bluestateguy]

2. I agree

And I think nitpicking and word-policing every cadence, every phrase and every word out of someone's mouth denigrates the spirit of free and open debate--for women and men.

[Autumn]

3. I think I agree, It's like cowboy up or cowgirl up. In other word get back

up on that bronc that threw you and don't let it win over you.

[snooper2]

4. Woman UP!

nobody was complaining about this,

This could have been it's own thread and topic for Weeks! I missed it LOL---

LOOK YOUR BEST



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Grab a friend and join us as we host two celebrity guest speakers – Vicki Gunvalson, star of Bravo TV’s “Real Housewives of Orange County” and Miranda Levy, star of Bravo TV’s “Project Runway.” Each guest will take home a reusable swag bag filled with goodies from local vendors.


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Details

Date/Time
Date(s) - 02/08/14
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Exposition Center

[truedelphi]

35. The event described in your post almost makes me sad I am a woman.

And it is rare that I get sad over being one.

The chocolate sounds nice, and shopping is fine, but I would rather spend a week in hell than spend even the smallest part of a day with any of the women in "Real Housewives of Orange County."

[Brickbat]

5. Actually, it's pretty sexist in that it upholds binary gender roles.

Placing women on equal footing economically, socially and in positions of leadership means dropping phrases such as "man up" from your vocabulary. A woman in a board room who is told to "man up" during the course of a corporate merger would pretty much be a great example of a shitty thing she would have to put up with.

[phleshdef]

10. I reject the notion that a phrase is sexist simply because it identifies with a particular gender.

There has to be sexist intentions behind the usage of it and "man up" is rarely, if ever used with and underlying message that insists men are superior to women. Mainstream understanding of a phrase is everything and nowhere in the American mainstream do people typically interpret a sexist message when that phrase is used.

[Brickbat]

17. If you define "sexist" as "one gender being superior to the other," I suppose I can see that.

But "sexist" also means assuming genders possess inherent qualities, and that those qualities are a part of that gender. The "man up" implies that being tough, strong or resilient is a male attribute. It's not out of the mainstream to see that.

[phleshdef]

26. But next to no one who uses the phrase is saying that strength is only a male attribute.

Its like telling someone to grow up... by your logic, that phrase must mean that the older someone is, the more mature they are and that's not true at all... and no one that say such a thing means it that way.

[Brickbat]

37. "But next to no one who uses the phrase is saying that strength is only a male attribute."

It's like you don't know how words work. The words themselves imply it. Because the word "man" is in the phrase.

[phleshdef]

44. It doesn't matter that "man" is in the phrase. Mainstream recognition trumps dictionary technicality

[Brickbat]

52. What is this "mainstream recognition" you keep talking about?

Besides your own perspective, I mean. You've got several people on your own thread and writers commenting on other sites about how it's a sexist, outdated phrase to use.

[redqueen]

93. This. nt

[geek tragedy]

6. it's not the worst example, but it is a gendered term

personally, I don't take offense at it and wouldn't lecture anyone over it, but it's not a term I would use at the workplace or outside of a locker room for that matter

[phleshdef]

11. I don't think I've ever used it in normal conversatio myself. Its just not the way I talk to people.

[geek tragedy]

14. yeah, it's not me either. nt

[TransitJohn]

43. You're not supposed to use the word gendered

/things I learned at DU

[phleshdef]

47. LOL, good catch.

[m-lekktor]

7. it's sexist as all hell.

of course it's ok if a DEM says it.

[phleshdef]

13. I don't care who says it, its only sexist if you are trying to imagine sexism in places where it...

...doesn't exist.

There may be a few exceptions, but generally, its not used with sexist intentions. Intentions and mainstream understanding of phrases is more important than dictionary based technicalities.

[Whisp]

9. it's the same as 'grow some balls' - icky.

Kerry didn't choose the best words but that is so inconsequential in the whole scheme of things I am amazed (um, no I'm not) people are having busted artery spurts over it. They are the ones who have episodes like this over Anything Obama Admin - some for years.

[NightWatcher]

12. Is "Oh, grow up" ageist?

I liken it to saying, "suck it up".

[AverageJoe90]

15. Some VERY good points here.

Not much else I can say here. So I'll just give you kudos instead.

[unblock]

16. one could argue that tactically this isn't worth fighting about, but you can't deny it's sexist.

it overtly assigns an behavioral expectation to one gender where gender isn't and shouldn't be relevant. it's transparently sexist. the maleness of the word "man" is right there for everyone to read or hear.

something words or phrases that are, strictly speaking, sexist, arguable are invisibly so to most people, e.g., "seminal" as in, "this great book was the author's seminal work, and it created an entire new branch of literature." most people would be oblivious to the maleness of the word "seminal" in this context, so a case could more easily be made for ignoring the technically sexist nature of the word.

not so for "man up". not even close.

[phleshdef]

20. I completely and 100% deny that its sexist. And I think you marginalize sexism by insisting it is.

[unblock]

58. i don't think i'm marginalizing sexism by trying to open everyone's eyes to how subtle it can be

i don't disagree with you in the sense that some forms of sexism are worth fighting over, others are not; and this one is, in the scheme of things, probably not worth fighting over. but i do think it's important to be aware of it.

but broadly speaking, in terms of categorization, this belongs inside the scope of phrases that are technically sexist.

you seem to be arguing for some sort of narrow notion of sexism where things have to cross some threshold of badness before they're even deemed to be "sexism". i think this it's much simpler and cleaner to define sexism so as to include all terms and phrases that assign gender roles and expectations and so on as included under the term "sexism", and then have categories within that that guide us in terms picking our battles to fight against, etc.

[Lee-Lee]

19. Not sexist??

The very implication is that if you don't do the hard thing or fight hard you are not a man- so a woman.

[phleshdef]

22. Thats an imaginary implication because next to no one who uses that phrase, means that.

Mainstream acceptance of the phrase and mainstream understanding of what it implies are more important than nitpicking dictionary definitions.

Just because some phrase technically identifies with a particular gender doesn't mean it intentionally identifies with a particular gender and that's what is actually important.

[Lee-Lee]

25. Not imaginary

"Man up" "Act like a man" "Be a man about it"- all saying essentially the same thing, all with the same implication.

[phleshdef]

27. By your logic, "grow up" insinuates that older people are superior to younger people.

[Lee-Lee]

31. Your making my point and can't see it

"Grow up" refers to acting more mature- not implying superiority, but that maturity comes with age.

Likewise "Man up" infers acting or being tough = being a man, so men are stronger or tougher.

[phleshdef]

36. No, if you are nitpicking, "grow up" means to act like a person that is older.

And as we know, being older has nothing to do with acting more mature past early childhood (and I've met some 4 year olds that are far more grown up acting than say, Sarah Palin).

But of course anyone actually using that phrase doesn't mean that and people don't generally understand it to mean that.

[uppityperson]

66. "grow up" means to act like a grown up, not a child. Not an "older" person than you are but

a mature person as it assumes people who are grown up are more mature than those who are not.

[Sheepshank]

30. "THAT'S SO GAY"

I think most have finally and generally have grown beyond using the words...words have meaning. See how that works?

"Man up", use it often enough it because another useless habit, one forgets the meaning, context and origins and populations will disregard what it means and implies. BUT given attention and context, perhaps we can grow beyond using words and trite statements without thinking it through.

How is a woman ever supposed to Man Up? within the context of those words there is something a person is supposed to aspire to, a goal to attain, they are not there yet, but give enough gumption, they can finally be successful, like a man. Care to explain why MAN is set as the standard to acheive without it being sexist?

[phleshdef]

34. "Grow up"

Lets just talk about that phrase for a moment... do you think that insinuates Dick Cheney is superior to Barack Obama being he is older?

[Sheepshank]

38. it implies that

adults should have more reasoning ability than a kindergartener.

care to respond to my last paragraph?

[phleshdef]

42. If you get nitpicky about it, it would literally mean the older you are, the more superior you are.

Of course that's not what people actually mean when they say it and this is why I object to nitpicking at commonly used figures of speech that don't have a mainstream recognition of denigrating people of specific demographics.

[Sheepshank]

53. You are comparing apples to oranges

I'm all ears
Give them an inch and they'll take a mile
like shooting fish in a barrel
No only means no until they start enjoying it.
Ball and chain



we could go into lengths about the origins and applicability of all of them. BUT your op was specifically about Man Up. It is sexist in the extreme and implies it is the standard to attain, even if it is impossible for a woman to do so. So by default women will always fail. ON the flip side, someone who can't man up is womanly? They losing side is not being manly? So wrong and sexist on so many level and you don't want to see it?

Nothing wrong with admitting that it's an inappropriate quip, just as "that's so gay" is inappropriate and implies something that doesn't quite measure up.

[uppityperson]

67. "act older" would mean that. "grow up" implies acting like a "grown up" which is a mature person.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

46. No, here's where you fail.

You personally have decided what people who use the phrase mean, and claim that 'next to no one' uses it differently than the way you feel it's being used.

In reality, even in this small space, you've gotten plenty of feedback from people who disagree with your psychic ability to know what other people are thinking when they use a phrase.

You confuse your opinion with fact.

[phleshdef]

48. Excuse me for using common sense and being in touch with the mainstream.

Next time, I'll remember to abandon reason at the door and succumb to imagining insults where none exist.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

50. show proof that you are.

What you claim as 'common sense' and 'reason' is your personal opinion. What actual evidence (polls, studies) do you have to back up your claim? The common theme seems to be that most people disagree with you, so 'common sense' seems to be not what you're advocating.

[TheFrenchRazor]

64. of course that's what it means. why the heck else say it?? nt

[Laelth]

21. No, it doesn't denigrate women.

It may, however, reinforce patriarchy (and there might be a good reason for that).

The fact that men are taught "big boys don't cry" or to "man up" is a social construct. That's learned behavior, passed down from mothers to their sons for centuries (if not millennia). And there's probably a good reason for that. My mother wasn't stupid, and I refuse to believe that mothers (for centuries) have been stupid. They taught their male children that "big boys don't cry" and to "man up" for a long time because they knew that their boys needed love and a mate, and they knew that most women would not choose a "wimp" as a sexual partner, so they taught their boys to be "strong" and to repress their emotions. That makes good, biological sense to me.

It's mothers who teach their boys not to express emotion (and they do so for very good reasons--unless you want to argue that most mothers are stupid, and I refuse to believe that).

-Laelth

[Oilwellian]

45. It does reinforce patriarchy

I don't think most mothers today are saying "man up" to their sons. In my experience, it's been fathers who say that to their sons...I even heard my ex say it to my sons when they were little and it used to infuriate me. Most mothers today, hopefully, allow their sons to express various emotions without being shamed ie. you're weak for doing so.

Kerry expressly implied that Snowden was weak for not coming back to face our two-tiered injustice system. Personally, I think Snowden is quite brave for blowing the whistle on our criminal government and has already sacrificed enough. They want to use him as an example for anyone else who may consider blowing the whistle on our corrupt government. To hell with that.

[Laelth]

56. Fathers say it too, no doubt.

(And they probably do so for good reasons as well--unless you want to argue that fathers are stupid).

That said, I am one of those who believes that most of what we are is learned in the first five years of life, and, from what I can tell, most of us learn what we learn in the first five years of life from women. So, I argue, if patriarchy exists (and I think it does), then it is created and sustained primarily by women (as they do most of the early-age childrearing), and, if women teach patriarchy, then there's probably a good reason for that (unless we want to argue that most of our early-age teachers were just stupid).

It's a complicated and important question. Thanks for the response.

-Laelth

[uppityperson]

71. "most of us learn what we learn in the first five years of life from women"? wtf?

And did you ever reply about immunosuppresants meaning a weaker immune system, not stronger?

[Laelth]

77. While we're discussing this ...

Yes. Testosterone is an immuno-suppressant. As such, any male that survives childhood must have a killer immune system if they also have high levels of testosterone suppressing their immune systems. Thus, high-testosterone males are more desirable (biologically speaking) because their children are more likely to have that superior immune system that allowed their fathers to survive childhood despite the fact that their immune system was suppressed by testosterone.

Hope that makes sense.

And most of us learn most of our social encoding from our mothers (or whomever rears and nurtures us for the first five years of our lives). Do you deny that?



-Laelth

[uppityperson]

80. War is Peace? They have such great immune systems that they have to be suppressed? seriously?

No, that makes no sense.


"or whomever rears and nurtures us for the first five years of our lives". And whoosh go the goal posts from "mother" to "whomever".

[Laelth]

86. You might benefit ...

... from some education on the concept of good faith. Until you are willing to discuss this matter with me in "good faith" I have no interest in expending my energy on you.

-Laelth

[uppityperson]

87. I disagree strongly with your take on why women chose which men and for what reason. wiki links asid

I disagree with you. Not going to insult or call you names, though I might and do throw in smilies.

[Laelth]

23. Big boys don't cry.

For your listening pleasure:

-Laelth

[phleshdef]

29. I'm more into this myself...

[Laelth]

33. Great song.

Yet the primal screams (and pathetic whimpers) of men continue to be dismissed and ignored ... to the detriment of us all.

Not sure how to change this, but I am convinced that it needs to change.

-Laelth

[G_j]

76. the way it used today is sexist

no doubt in my mind..

[Laelth]

79. That label, "sexist," means very little to me.

The world is "sexist" because we are gendered animals. We will have to accept some "sexism" until there's no difference at all between the genders.

On that score, I side with the French. "Vive la difference!"

-Laelth

[G_j]

82. they way I've seen it used consistently, is to tell a man that he is not man enough

or that he needs to be less feminine. I have no problems with differences, but this is used as a value judgement IMHO.

[Laelth]

84. With that I fully agree.

And it's a problem. And it hurts Democrats.

More on that here.

-Laelth

[yellowcanine]

40. Whatever, it is tiresome, just like "grow a pair."

[TheFrenchRazor]

65. correct. male=strong, female=weak. tiresome indeed. nt

[TransitJohn]

41. Did someone really think it was sexist?

It means to play man-to-man defense, as opposed to a zone. A synonym is match up.

[Dr. Strange]

49. So Kerry was trying to get Snowden to stop playing zone defense?

Kerry sucks as a coach.

[TransitJohn]

54. It means play tougher by denying the ball to an opponent

I can't speak to what Kerry was trying to say

[NuclearDem]

51. Yes it is.

In the same vein as "don't be a p***y."

[BeyondGeography]

55. Well, it is better than, "grow a pair"

as long as we're aiming low.

[MineralMan]

59. Same meaning, though.

[bettydavis]

57. masculinity = strength, power,maturity,responsibility

leaving femininity to = weakness, timidity, immaturity, irresponsibility. It's so easy to effing understand I can't even believe people are arguing that it's not a sexist phrase. strength, power, maturity etc are not masculine traits they are admirable traits. It's unbecoming of someone in his position to use a phrase like that. It's undignified and yes TOTALLY sexist.

[carolinayellowdog]

83. nobody is ARGUING it's not sexist, it's INARGUABLY sexist so they just DENY it is sexist

Have you seen anything that rises to the standard of an argument, rather than an assertion against all evidence?

[Nye Bevan]

60. Definitely mildly sexist on a par with calling Snowden a "girly-man".

Not offensive enough to warrant working up a purple-faced rage and demanding Kerry's resignation, however.

[hunter]

61. Can't tell you how many times I was told to "Man Up" or "Fake it 'til you make it..."

... and all the other "Pull yourself up by your bootstraps" flaming bullshit.

In middle school and high school I was a skinny, squeaky, reactive kid. The bullies called me "queerbait."

Thank god I was safe at home from that sort of abuse. I got zero pressure from my parents to "tough out" high school. The weird thing is, of all my siblings, the two of us who quit high school are the university graduates...



One day in middle school one of my more conservative teachers took me out into the hallway to give me the "man up" speech. After a few minutes I was getting really fidgety and then I ran for it. He grabbed my arm, but I broke free.

Nothing came of it. The school called my mom, but she told them as she often did, no worries, he'll probably be home for dinner. And mostly I was. The school administration was more afraid of my mom than they were of me. She was always a mama bear terror if they called her to school when I got in trouble. One never knew where the blame would fall, on me, the school administration, or the kids (or their parents) who were tormenting me.

I did not live a "protected" life in any way. For most things I was expected to do my homework and make things right whenever I screwed up. If, as a volatile teenager, I punched a hole in the wall I had to patch it better than new. If I got a ticket driving or parking I had to pay it. If I was irresponsible with the family car, I didn't get to drive it. If I was late for dinner, I made my own.

[TheFrenchRazor]

62. of course it's sexist, and stupid. doesn't mean i'm going to die on any hill over it, but if you

say it, be prepared to experience some negative reactions. and truth is, a lot of times when men say stuff like this, or use the b-word or other sexist expressions, women may not say anything, but i guarantee you that the make a mental note about the speaker, and it is not a favorable one.

[treestar]

68. I agree, I had heard "woman up"

maybe we need another term for the concept. Face up to, perhaps.

[mwrguy]

72. It is sexist & cisgenderist and contributes to the culture of toxic masculinity that produced

Elliot Rodger

[phleshdef]

92. ^ And that folks is what I call trying WAY too hard.

[uppityperson]

73. Of course it is sexist. It implies being a "man" is better than not.

[dilby]

74. Does anyone even care? Really out of all the concerns in the world we are worried

if Kerry used a sexist term when addressing Snowden. People on these boards need to Man Up and stop worrying about terminology.

[gollygee]

75. Of course "man up" is sexist

It suggests that to be strong and capable is to be a man.

However, that statement is by far not the worst case of sexism I've seen in our government, so I don't really care. I am much more concerned about threats to women's reproductive rights.

[Warren DeMontague]

78. I prefer to say "mang up"

know what I mean, mang?

[hamsterjill]

81. It doesn't bother me, but I can see how it would bother others.

There are simply many other phrases that I would take greater offense.

But to me, the world is not going to change to accommodate every single phrase that MIGHT tick someone else off. A lot of what is said boils down to the intent behind the words. I mean, we all need to be sensitive to others' feelings. Absolutely. But there comes a point where it's just absurdity when someone finds a complaint with everything.

And when the subject of bullying comes up - no one should have to put up with being bullied, and I am happy that awareness on that subject has increased, especially for school age children. But I think we also need to do more to build up the self esteem, etc. of those who are the targets of bullies so that they are better equipped to deal with bullies. It's not enough to expect that there will never be bullying because there always will be. Just as there will always be phrases that someone is offended by. It's important that those on the receiving end have the confidence not to let it destroy them.

[Squinch]

85. I worry less about it denigrating women than I do about it denigrating whatever man or boy it is

being tossed at.

What it says is, "Whatever you are doing right now, it isn't manly enough." With "manly enough" being very narrowly and restrictively defined.

...a dad saying to his crying boy, "man up" means don't cry.
...a man saying to his friend who is frightened to do something, "man up" means he isn't allowed to be frightened or to let fear inform him or to show fear in front of other men.
...a woman saying it to her husband or son means, "you are not sufficiently masculine for me to approve of you right now."
...someone saying it to a boy who has some effeminate gestures or traits means, "homosexuality is not acceptable."

It hurts you a lot more than it hurts me. Too bad you can't see that.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

89. Eternal boyhood is the dream of a depressing percentage of American males,

Eternal boyhood is the dream of a depressing percentage of American males, and the locker room is the temple where they worship arrested development. Russell Baker

[MrScorpio]

90. I just wanted to stop in and say...

That ANYONE accused of being of being a misogynist on DU is nothing more than a rank amateur compared to the kind of people that I'm dealing with on the Discussionist.

Some of the men on that site make Fred Flintstone look like a feminist icon by comparison.

The utter contempt that they show towards women there is totally outrageous and completely unambiguous.

Of course, that's not to excuse any of the struggles against the unenlightened views towards women that invariable pop up around here from time to time.

But there, the misogyny is at a completely different level.

Just wanted to point that out.

I will now return you all to your regularly scheduled DU GD donnybrook.

Take care.

[phleshdef]

91. Hehe yea, I'm posting over there too, lots of wild characters.

[MadrasT]

94. I've been reading over there out of curiosity and yeah, it is ugly.

Not feeling inclined to want to jump in to that particular mosh pit though.