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Thu May 29, 2014, 06:40 PM

 

"The Hard Left are no different than the Hard Right"

Last edited Fri May 30, 2014, 10:27 AM - Edit history (4)

"Both swiftboating Kerry. In fact, the hard left is just infiltrators from the right pretending to be left."

That's a reasonable summary, I think, of what I've been reading today.

Fabulous.

When the Right "swiftboated" Kerry, they made up lies and used these lies to attack Kerry. The swiftboating from the Left - which is exactly the same as from the Right, dont'cha know - simply points out well-known facts. But if you're Left of the Third Way, facts are apparently as unfair as lies.

Okey-Dokey.

As to the Left being the Right in disguise... what seems to qualify as being "Hard Left" these days is wanting:

- an end to the Bush/Obama Spy on Everyone program
- Medicare for all
- fair taxation of the wealthy - repealing the other [strike]two-thirds[/strike] 82% of the Bush tax cuts would be a good start
- a dramatic reduction of our military, and keeping them out of murderous mischief
- US laws to apply to bankers the same they apply to the rest of us
- economic policy that gives the 99% a fair shake

Anarchy! No actual Democrat could want such things! Must be a Republican operative or stealth Libertarian!

Well, guess what: Last time I checked, roughly two-thirds of Americans were also in favor of each of these things.

Hard Left, my ass. We're the middle. Sorry that's so #%^*ing unreasonable.

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Reply "The Hard Left are no different than the Hard Right" (Original post)
MannyGoldstein May 2014 OP
ProSense May 2014 #1
rhett o rick May 2014 #43
MissDeeds May 2014 #65
rhett o rick May 2014 #70
hobbit709 May 2014 #69
ProSense May 2014 #87
Raksha May 2014 #75
ProSense May 2014 #88
rhett o rick May 2014 #94
lark May 2014 #97
sabrina 1 May 2014 #85
Rex May 2014 #2
Spitfire of ATJ May 2014 #27
carolinayellowdog May 2014 #38
Rex May 2014 #118
Maedhros May 2014 #3
Art_from_Ark May 2014 #5
JoeyT May 2014 #7
Maedhros May 2014 #45
G_j May 2014 #15
alfredo May 2014 #30
reddread May 2014 #34
840high May 2014 #36
Ed Suspicious May 2014 #39
villager May 2014 #73
KittyWampus May 2014 #40
rhett o rick May 2014 #44
Enthusiast May 2014 #50
lark May 2014 #100
kath May 2014 #103
BrotherIvan May 2014 #46
sabrina 1 May 2014 #98
JDPriestly May 2014 #105
Enthusiast May 2014 #51
MissDeeds May 2014 #67
Blanks May 2014 #91
Maedhros May 2014 #93
Blanks May 2014 #107
Maedhros May 2014 #108
Blanks May 2014 #113
Maedhros May 2014 #115
Blanks May 2014 #117
lark May 2014 #99
Maedhros May 2014 #101
lark May 2014 #102
Maedhros May 2014 #104
noiretextatique May 2014 #110
blkmusclmachine May 2014 #4
SwankyXomb May 2014 #23
Raksha May 2014 #76
dawg May 2014 #6
PowerToThePeople May 2014 #8
socialist_n_TN May 2014 #10
Maedhros May 2014 #95
KG May 2014 #18
Raksha May 2014 #77
PowerToThePeople May 2014 #78
Oilwellian May 2014 #9
Raksha May 2014 #80
Maedhros May 2014 #96
baldguy May 2014 #11
Demeter May 2014 #14
11 Bravo May 2014 #21
Bobbie Jo May 2014 #35
KittyWampus May 2014 #41
morningfog May 2014 #42
Comrade Grumpy May 2014 #47
Raksha May 2014 #81
MannyGoldstein May 2014 #16
reddread May 2014 #12
MisterP May 2014 #13
ProSense May 2014 #17
MannyGoldstein May 2014 #37
ProSense May 2014 #53
MrModerate May 2014 #19
DisgustipatedinCA May 2014 #20
winter is coming May 2014 #25
MFrohike May 2014 #32
YOHABLO May 2014 #22
Fearless May 2014 #31
Raksha May 2014 #83
zeemike May 2014 #24
Spitfire of ATJ May 2014 #26
Simeon Salus May 2014 #28
Enthusiast May 2014 #49
Raksha May 2014 #84
stonecutter357 May 2014 #29
cantbeserious May 2014 #33
Enthusiast May 2014 #48
djean111 May 2014 #52
Enthusiast May 2014 #56
ProSense May 2014 #55
LineLineLineReply ?
Enthusiast May 2014 #57
ProSense May 2014 #58
MannyGoldstein May 2014 #74
ProSense May 2014 #86
Egnever May 2014 #112
ProSense May 2014 #89
berni_mccoy May 2014 #54
Scuba May 2014 #59
beerandjesus May 2014 #61
Scuba May 2014 #62
beerandjesus May 2014 #64
Scuba May 2014 #66
Capt. Obvious May 2014 #60
carolinayellowdog May 2014 #63
MissDeeds May 2014 #68
malthaussen May 2014 #71
villager May 2014 #72
donco May 2014 #79
LiberalLovinLug May 2014 #82
noiretextatique May 2014 #90
bvar22 May 2014 #92
Doctor_J May 2014 #106
TheKentuckian May 2014 #120
PatrickforO May 2014 #109
noiretextatique May 2014 #111
rock May 2014 #114
YoungDemCA May 2014 #116
woo me with science May 2014 #119

Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu May 29, 2014, 06:46 PM

1. "When the Right "swiftboated" Kerry, they made up lies and used these lies to attack Kerry."

" The swiftboating from the Left - which is exactly the same as from the Right, dont'cha know - simply points out well-known facts. But if you're Left of the Third Way, facts are apparently as unfair as lies."

You're making me laugh, especially the part where you invoke "facts," which the OP allegedly includes.




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Response to ProSense (Reply #1)

Thu May 29, 2014, 10:04 PM

43. If you hate the left so much, why are you here in DU. Supposedly this is a message board for the

 

politically liberal. Attacking the left isnt "politically liberal", so what are you guys doing here?

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #43)

Fri May 30, 2014, 08:49 AM

65. +10000

 

But I think we know what "you guys are doing here" - or trying to do.

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Response to MissDeeds (Reply #65)

Fri May 30, 2014, 08:58 AM

70. Make DU into one big BOG-like message board. Encourage the liberals, lefties,

 

progressives to move to the Discussionist. I think it's called "Cleanse". That'd be a shame. I like DU and being able to discuss the important issues of the day even though some only want to disparage Snowden.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #43)

Fri May 30, 2014, 08:58 AM

69. Pro sense usually makes no sense.

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Response to hobbit709 (Reply #69)

Fri May 30, 2014, 11:15 AM

87. You think it makes "sense" to agree with information that is inaccurate?

Have fun.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #43)

Fri May 30, 2014, 10:17 AM

75. A very good point!

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #43)

Fri May 30, 2014, 11:20 AM

88. What "left"?

People simply agreeing with whatever someone else posts, however inaccurate, doesn't make you the "left."

"If you hate the left so much, why are you here in DU."

A bit authoritarian, huh?

"Supposedly this is a message board for the politically liberal."

Yeah, "supposedly," and yet people post Alex Jones' stuff and agree with it.

"Attacking the left isnt 'politically liberal', so what are you guys doing here?:

So why are you "attacking" people by trying to claim that they're not the "left" because you disagree with them?



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Response to ProSense (Reply #88)

Fri May 30, 2014, 12:33 PM

94. I disagree with the conservative ideology whether is comes from a Republican or

 

a Democrat claiming to be liberal.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #43)

Fri May 30, 2014, 12:44 PM

97. She's here to promote Obama

whatever he does or doesn't do are irrelevant, from what I've seen.

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Response to ProSense (Reply #1)

Fri May 30, 2014, 11:04 AM

85. Which 'facts' regarding what constitutes the Left are you disputing? Is it the issues, is it

the fact that Democrats have always supported Whistle Blowers who expose wrong doing in government, regardless, unlike the RIGHT, of which party is in power? So far as I know, the Left has not abandoned the principles that it always stood by. But if that has happened, could you point out which principles/issues we are supposed to abandon, not that I am likely to, but for those who are confused?

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu May 29, 2014, 06:50 PM

2. Yeah I thought was was sad too...yet the very same people will rail against anyone

 

that says both parties are the same. Funny how they just seem to magically know all this stuff.

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Response to Rex (Reply #2)

Thu May 29, 2014, 08:30 PM

27. Maybe because they don't attend the DC cocktail parties.

 

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Response to Rex (Reply #2)

Thu May 29, 2014, 09:25 PM

38. PARTIES NOT SAME, LEFT RIGHT SAME, REPEAT REPEAT REPEAT

but here in the reality based community the left and right are not the same but the parties are

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Response to carolinayellowdog (Reply #38)

Fri May 30, 2014, 06:31 PM

118. Yeah strange stuff really. The parties are not the same, but the extreme ends are just alike.

 

Sadly for the people saying this, have no idea that this is not a circle. They don't magically meet somewhere and then become the other group.

On social issues, the parties are NOTHING alike. On political issues, the extremes are POLAR OPPOSITES of each other!

Sorry, I know I'm preaching to the choir...but it just makes me shake my head. I think some people LIKE staying confused.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu May 29, 2014, 06:58 PM

3. I remember the good old days, when it was the Republicans that demonized "Liberal."

 

Last edited Fri May 30, 2014, 11:07 AM - Edit history (2)

The use of the terms "hard left" or "extreme left" is a good litmus test for whether a poster should be summarily ignored.

Anyone accusing someone of "hard left" positions on DU clearly has no grasp of politics. Traditional American liberal values are now "hard left", despite the absence of demands to nationalize industry, confiscate wealth and overthrow the government by popular armed revolt. They've simply been told that liberal objections to right-leaning Democratic Party policies are unreasonable "hard left" tantrums. They should stop listening to the people telling them that.

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Response to Maedhros (Reply #3)

Thu May 29, 2014, 07:06 PM

5. Absolutely

You have hit the nail squarely on the head.

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Response to Maedhros (Reply #3)

Thu May 29, 2014, 07:13 PM

7. I'd add "Anti-American" or "Blame America First" to that list.

It's jingoistic right wing horseshit. But it's jingoistic right wing horseshit that's gleefully spread here on a regular basis.

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Response to JoeyT (Reply #7)

Fri May 30, 2014, 12:17 AM

45. Anyone who uses the "Blame America First" line is just Glenn Beck in disguise [n/t]

 

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Response to Maedhros (Reply #3)

Thu May 29, 2014, 07:39 PM

15. This!

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Response to Maedhros (Reply #3)

Thu May 29, 2014, 08:44 PM

30. Anything left of Joe McCarthy is the hard left.

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Response to Maedhros (Reply #3)

Thu May 29, 2014, 09:02 PM

34. the good old days n/t

 

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Response to Maedhros (Reply #3)

Thu May 29, 2014, 09:08 PM

36. ...^ that

 

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Response to Maedhros (Reply #3)

Thu May 29, 2014, 09:42 PM

39. Middle dem is republican lite.

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Response to Ed Suspicious (Reply #39)

Fri May 30, 2014, 09:58 AM

73. Is it even still "lite" anymore?

 

I'm beginning to wonder.

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Response to Maedhros (Reply #3)

Thu May 29, 2014, 09:45 PM

40. the word is ideologue and it fits many on DU perfectly. Many are clueless on how politics

 

actually works.

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Response to KittyWampus (Reply #40)

Thu May 29, 2014, 10:07 PM

44. Here's how it works. If you disparage the left THEN YOU ARE ON THE RIGHT.

 

If you support fracking, the TPP, the XL Pipeline, indefinite detention, the Patriot, Wall Street corruption, etc, THEN YOU AINT A LIBERAL. Then you aint a Democrat.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #44)

Fri May 30, 2014, 06:28 AM

50. If you embrace supply side trickle down economics and austerity measures, you ain't no Democrat.

If you are anti—labor you are certainly no kind of good Democrat.

If you support the privatization of public education you are not a good Democrat. You might tell people you are a good Democrat but you would be misleading your audience.

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Response to Enthusiast (Reply #50)

Fri May 30, 2014, 12:51 PM

100. Good lists Rhett-o-Rick and Enthusiast

Add to this anyone who doesn't support unions, who supports moving jobs offshore, who supports unlimited rights to own military type weapons, no taxes on large estates, corporate personhood, and carried interest are no Dems either.

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Response to lark (Reply #100)

Fri May 30, 2014, 01:06 PM

103. And add to the lists that anyone who supports ANY cuts to SS and Medicare, under any guise - chained

CPI or whatever bullshit name they want to give it - is no Democrat. period.

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Response to KittyWampus (Reply #40)

Fri May 30, 2014, 02:38 AM

46. LOL

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Response to KittyWampus (Reply #40)

Fri May 30, 2014, 12:45 PM

98. Politics works this way, in this country anyhow. We have two parties, one represents the

people, the working class, minorities (big tent didn't mean the Third Way/Republican lite, they have a party, it meant those not represented were welcome in the Dem Party, while not welcome in the other party).

The other party represents a Corporate, privatized war-mongering state where SS and other social programs put in place by the Dem Party, should be privatized for profit, this includes our Public Education system, our National Security etc.

The people decide which party claims to represent them and they become members of that party.

When the party strays from its stated platform, its members get to voice their disappointment, to let the party know they can NOT take the people's votes for granted, because the 'other side is worse'.

It's pretty simple, and no, politicians do not get to be on board with the Republican Party platform while claiming to be Democrats. When they do the people WILL speak out like it or not.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'people don't understand how politics works'. Unfortunately we understand all too well how IT IS working, and that is why people are angry. They DO understand. They wanted CHANGE, they were promised CHANGE from the 'way politics works'.

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Response to KittyWampus (Reply #40)

Fri May 30, 2014, 01:19 PM

105. In my opinion, DU is not about how politics works.

We all know it is about compromise and pragmatism.

DU is where we discuss our ideas, our ideals, our hopes and dreams, what we think would be best for America.

If you can't dream, if you can't discuss your dreams, you will never improve things.

The conservatives here misunderstand the more liberal DUers. Conservatives think we liberals are unrealistic. That is not true. We see reality and we want to improve it.

What we don't like about the conservatives on DU is that they are fatalistic. They accept less than should be accepted. And they refuse to discuss or respect those who discuss possibilities that are better than the reality.

It is possible to dream, to discuss and think about what should be while still accepting the limitations of what you have to put up with to get to what should be. That is the story of America. Someone dreamed of a railroad. Impossible the conservatives said. But no. The government gave companies the land to build a railroad. And the railroad was built.

Leonardo da Vinci dreamed that we humans would one day fly. And we do fly -- in airplanes -- a contraption that another dreamer created.

Someone thought that it would be good to have a government of the people, by the people and for the people. Conservatives preferred the old, reliable monarchy. Conservatives said that democracy, a republic governed of the people, by the people and for the people would be chaotic and end in misery. America revolted against monarchy and agreed to a Constitution that provides for the separation of powers between three branches of government and, by guaranteeing in the BIll of Rights certain fundamental limitations on government, makes government by the people, of the people and for the people a real possibility -- provided we safeguard our rights.

Reality based politics is necessary. But on DU the point is to get beyond it. The point is to work and talk about something better than the status quo.

That is why reports on all the wonderful things that Obama is doing are great, but more appropriate on other websites.

This is the Democratic UNDERGROUND, not the Democratic mainstream. Thank you.

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Response to Maedhros (Reply #3)

Fri May 30, 2014, 06:32 AM

51. +1 an entire shit load.

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Response to Maedhros (Reply #3)

Fri May 30, 2014, 08:52 AM

67. Excellent post

 



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Response to Maedhros (Reply #3)

Fri May 30, 2014, 12:10 PM

91. That's ridiculous.

What I see going on here is people declare themselves 'hard left' and then when someone tries to explain the political reality that exists (i.e. each house of congress is controlled by a different party) and how that REALITY neccessitates some degree of compromise - and then it is further pointed out that the republican controlled House of Representatives refuses to compromise. Then it is further pointed out that the president can't make law without the cooperation of congress. The self declared 'hard left' then feels picked on.

The only criticism that I see toward the 'hard left' around here is that we have to be realistic about what the democrats can accomplish when they don't control the government. They (the democrats) were working toward a liberal agenda when they had control of congress - they passed health insurance reform, they passed banking reform, they were doing the people's work. The only thing that kept them from continuing to move to the left was the fact that they lost control of congress.

There's a 24 hour news network and an entire radio empire that colors everything that democrats do as BAD (even if what they're doing is identical to what the republicans have done). There are year round campaigns against everything liberal by the tea party, Americans for prosperity and a whole host of other big money organizations.

If I were czar: I'd hide every post that suggests that there's no difference between the two parties, and kick the ass of everyone who said it more than once - to the curb.

It's odd how the 'hard left' seems to be the group perpetuating this myth that the parties are the same. Because to me: There's a world of difference between the two parties. Of course if the people at the Democratic Underground don't think there's a difference between the two parties - how can we expect to win elections.

Sure, the democratic politicians can do better, but they can't do anything for us unless they get control of the house back from they 'Obamacare repealing' republicans.

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Response to Blanks (Reply #91)

Fri May 30, 2014, 12:29 PM

93. The "no difference between the two parties" line is problematic.

 

There are, of course, differences, although many are cosmetic.

There are two areas in which the two parties are much more alike than they are different. Foreign policy appears to remain consistent despite which party controls the White House or Congress, and both parties receive their funding from the same corporate sources and are thus beholden to the same interests.

You are correct about how the "hard left" (i.e. traditional liberal Democrats) sees the two parties as similar, since they are both far to the right of where they were 40 years ago.

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Response to Maedhros (Reply #93)

Fri May 30, 2014, 01:34 PM

107. One of the reasons that the party has moved to the right...

Is because the country has moved to the right (despite the statistics showing what policies voters ACTUALLY support). The fact that it is not in the people's best interest to move to the right is immaterial.

It's necessary to get a majority of votes to stay in control and since every time the democrats make a move the 'noisy minority' (a conglomeration of Fox News, Clear Channel, and the Koch brothers organizations) starts getting people to repeat their moronic little slogans - the country rejects the democrats at the polls. The politicians have no choice, but to change their positions - in order to stay in office.

The folks in office have no choice but to pander to their constituents. I have no problem with criticizing a particular vote or position (social security cuts or the TPP for example) but when the 'hard left' make generic complaints (such as there is no difference between the two parties) it appears to me that this is forwarding the agenda of the opposition because we need to get people to the polls voting for democrats - the republicans are going no matter what.

Discouraging people from voting is BAD.

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Response to Blanks (Reply #107)

Fri May 30, 2014, 01:45 PM

108. I disagree.

 

As you say, every poll shows that Americans support liberal policies: protecting Social Security, universal health care, protecting the environment, etc.

Votes are not earned in this country, they are harvested. The political parties have moved to the right and they use mass media marketing techniques to harvest the votes they need. A primary method they use to accomplish this is to point at the other side and screech about how horrible it would be if they were elected. Voters have followed their parties rightward, because voters have become tribal. Democrats must win, not because they support liberal policies, but because the Republicans must be defeated.

Voters haven't moved to the right, they have just abandoned ideology altogether in favor of tribal identity. That's why they demonize the "extreme Left" - we aren't going along to get along.

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Response to Maedhros (Reply #108)

Fri May 30, 2014, 03:45 PM

113. Voters think they've moved to the right...

Because they're bombarded with a constant barrage of right-wing media controlled messaging ('there's no difference between the two parties' comes to mind as just one such message).

The democrats lost in 2010 because of tea party messaging. It had nothing to do with the democrats not doing their job (because they were forwarding the very agenda that you just mentioned).

Since we seem to agree that this 'extreme left' are the folks who don't understand the American political system (and believe that the executive party can create law by fiat), perhaps you're right - they aren't "going along to get along" I guess we'll know who to thank for the republican controlled congress that takes the vow in 2015 when that effort comes to fruition.

I'd rather we told people to vote democrat because they have an excellent record when they're in charge of congress. Rather than discourage them from voting because "both parties are the same."

The democratic candidates in my state point out their accomplishments (stand against privatizing SS, support hospitals etc.) even though Pryor is, at best, a DINO. so, I don't agree with you - they have PACs to smear their opponent, they talk themselves up. It would be political suicide to brag about a record of extremely liberal positions because he needs 50% of the vote.

Even if 75% of the country wants an extremely liberal policy enacted - that doesn't mean 75% of the people in each individual state want it. If a candidate comes down too hard on the side of an issue that's popular nationwide, but unpopular locally - they can lose their seat.

It's a balancing act. We can't expect much from the democrats as long as the republicans control the house.

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Response to Blanks (Reply #113)

Fri May 30, 2014, 04:03 PM

115. Nah, I don't agree.

 

There are two kinds of Democrats: those who are OK with the rightward drift, and the "extreme left." I'm not the former.

I'm sick of this talking point:

It's a balancing act. We can't expect much from the democrats as long as the republicans control the house.


It's an excuse. Democrats controlled the House for the latter part of the Bush Administration and did nothing with it. Democrats controlled the House for the first part of the Obama Administration and did nothing with it.

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Response to Maedhros (Reply #115)

Fri May 30, 2014, 06:21 PM

117. Are you familiar with the majority that the democrats had...

In the last legislative session of the Bush administration? Despite the fact that the democrats had a tiny majority (49-49-2) they actually accomplished considerably more than congress has accomplished since the republicans took control of the house, and as I pointed out before Obamacare and Dodd-Frank were accomplishments when the democrats controlled the house, senate and the White House.

Clearly we are going to disagree, but you have a nice day just the same.

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Response to Maedhros (Reply #3)

Fri May 30, 2014, 12:47 PM

99. I'm proud to call myself hard left or far left.

I question all of those that use these terms in a derogatory manner.

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Response to lark (Reply #99)

Fri May 30, 2014, 12:55 PM

101. There is little room for ideology in today's Party.

 

Democratic electoral victory has become the sole measure of success and the sole objective. We're constantly told that there is no chance to pass liberal or progressive legislation, and the only hope is to slow the inevitable march toward fascism and empire. In that context, the Party views the Left as an impediment because we expect results which they can't muster the effort to deliver.

The first words of response to any request are always "we can't."

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Response to Maedhros (Reply #101)

Fri May 30, 2014, 01:01 PM

102. The Dem party is not fond of us lefties.

We complain about their corporatist traits too much, among millions of other sins they don't forgive us for.

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Response to lark (Reply #102)

Fri May 30, 2014, 01:17 PM

104. The Third Way's motto: "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em" [n/t]

 

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Response to Maedhros (Reply #3)

Fri May 30, 2014, 03:24 PM

110. +100000 nt

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu May 29, 2014, 06:59 PM

4. Third Way "Democrats" LIE. Every day, every way. Don't trust ANYTHING they say. No way!

 

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Response to blkmusclmachine (Reply #4)

Thu May 29, 2014, 07:58 PM

23. You wouldn't trust a Republican would you?

That's all Third Way Democrats are.

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Response to blkmusclmachine (Reply #4)

Fri May 30, 2014, 10:25 AM

76. I stopped trusting Third Way Democrats a long time ago.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu May 29, 2014, 07:10 PM

6. By any reasonable standard, I'm barely left of center.

But these guys make me feel like Che Fuckin' Guevara.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu May 29, 2014, 07:22 PM

8. F it.

 



Honestly, I should be a middle of the road Dem, but the DLC/3rd way types pushed me to this via their BS on this board. Now nothing but full confiscation of the 1%s wealth will satisfy me.

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Response to PowerToThePeople (Reply #8)

Thu May 29, 2014, 07:30 PM

10. Welcome to the club..........

Or should I say "Welcome to the Party, Comrade"

Seriously though, I don't think anybody can look at what's happening now and not have, AT BEST, serious doubts about the capitalist system. Personally, I lost total faith in capitalism a few decades ago. And the Third Way types ARE capitalists. Economically, they are NO DIFFERENT THAT ANY OTHER NEO-LIBERAL ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD!

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Response to socialist_n_TN (Reply #10)

Fri May 30, 2014, 12:37 PM

95. That's the hard truth of it, and the hardest concept to convey to most Democrats.

 

Capitalism is, ultimately, the problem. Every American is socialized from birth to believe that Capitalism is equivalent to Democracy and that there is no workable alternative. The argument is that only unregulated Capitalism is the problem, and if we place reasonable restrictions on the activities of Capitalists then the problem is solved. Unfortunately, any such situation will only be temporary, because it is the nature of Capitalism to accumulate wealth and power and this eventually leads to political control. Political control leads to deregulation.

Moving beyond Capitalism is an essential step in the evolution of our civilization - at least, if we want to survive.

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Response to PowerToThePeople (Reply #8)

Thu May 29, 2014, 07:42 PM

18. you have nothing to lose but your chains...

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Response to PowerToThePeople (Reply #8)

Fri May 30, 2014, 10:35 AM

77. Ya know...at first I thought you were being facetious...

but then I realized you were serious. And I also realized I FEEL THE SAME DAMN WAY, and for the same reasons.

Re "Honestly, I should be a middle of the road Dem, but the DLC/3rd way types pushed me to this via their BS on this board. Now nothing but full confiscation of the 1%s wealth will satisfy me."

I am for CONFISCATION of the hoarded and inherited wealth of the 1% via heavy inheritance taxes and I am for REDISTRIBUTION of same through steeply progressive taxation. This is to correct the redistribution upwards that has been going on steadily since at least the 1970s and probably earlier.

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Response to Raksha (Reply #77)

Fri May 30, 2014, 10:38 AM

78. Corporatists and generational Oligarchs on both sides of the isle

 

I should edit because the propagandists on this board are not the real problem, those people and policies they they defend are.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu May 29, 2014, 07:23 PM

9. Great post, Manny

Count me in as one of those "hard lefties." For anyone to suggest I've been a stealth Republican on this site for the past thirteen years, reeks of desperation and pure, deluxe stupidity. The Third Way needs to create their own party because they are nothing like Democrats.

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Response to Oilwellian (Reply #9)

Fri May 30, 2014, 10:43 AM

80. This is what I've been waiting for--you could even say living for.

I want the Republican Party to die and the Democratic Party to split into two new parties--the Third Way Democrats and the Progressives.

In a sense this has already happened. What we have here on DU ARE these two de facto parties, only pretending to be one. But it's an increasingly hollow charade and it can't go on for much longer.

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Response to Raksha (Reply #80)

Fri May 30, 2014, 12:41 PM

96. Unfortunately, which Parties are allowed to exist and which ones wither and die

 

are outside of the control of the electorate. Corporate funding is the determinative factor.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu May 29, 2014, 07:32 PM

11. "Barack Obama is no different than George Bush."

 

Of course, Barack Obama doesn't use the Tea Party's talking points.

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Response to baldguy (Reply #11)

Thu May 29, 2014, 07:38 PM

14. He's more articulate...or reads the teleprompter better, at least

 

and he's demonstrably poorer. But his grandchildren will have caught up.

But as for policy, no, there's no difference. Same PNAC foreign policy, same Rubinite economic policy, same laisse-faire women's rights policy, same safe-harbor seeking (c'mon, is anyone FOR concussions?).

We was had.

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Response to Demeter (Reply #14)

Thu May 29, 2014, 07:49 PM

21. Wonderful! A teleprompter reference! Now I don't have to listen to FoxNews ...

anymore in order to hear that particular line of horseshit.

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Response to 11 Bravo (Reply #21)

Thu May 29, 2014, 09:06 PM

35. Heh, with the accompanying toon

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Response to Demeter (Reply #14)

Thu May 29, 2014, 09:46 PM

41. teleprompter? Says it all about you. Same PNAC policy? So what about Syria. Pathetic post.

 

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Response to KittyWampus (Reply #41)

Thu May 29, 2014, 09:51 PM

42. The people of the UK and the US stopped the march to war in Syria.

 

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Response to morningfog (Reply #42)

Fri May 30, 2014, 02:46 AM

47. I'll give Obama credit for understanding he had no popular support for that.

 

And bouncing it back on Congress was a deft political move.

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Response to Demeter (Reply #14)

Fri May 30, 2014, 10:47 AM

81. Exactly!

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Response to baldguy (Reply #11)

Thu May 29, 2014, 07:40 PM

16. True!

 

Most Tea Partiers don't want to cut Social Security, nor do they want Operation Spy On Everyone.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu May 29, 2014, 07:36 PM

12. better tippers per all the hookers I've met n/t

 

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu May 29, 2014, 07:38 PM

13. of course Dems advocating GOP policies will say anyone against them is an infiltrator

only there to get GOP policies passed!

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu May 29, 2014, 07:41 PM

17. "fair taxation of the wealthy - repealing the other two-thirds of the Bush tax cuts"

What does that mean? What "two-thirds"? Is that like the "vast majority"?

Obama and the One Percent

Another week, another outburst by a one-percenter comparing progressive taxation to Nazi atrocities. I particularly liked the end:

Kristallnacht was unthinkable in 1930; is its descendent “progressive” radicalism unthinkable now?

<...>

You do wonder why the WSJ published this screed. Do billionaires have the right to get their views aired, regardless? Did the Journal think that it was doing a public service by letting the rest of us see the loose screws in this guy’s head? Or — what I suspect, to be frank — did the relevant editors actually think he was making a useful point?

Anyway, thinking about this sort of thing makes me realize that there’s a danger, especially for progressives, of confusing the proposition that Obama’s billionaire haters are stark raving mad — which is true — with the proposition that Obama has done nothing that hurts the plutocrats’ interests, which is false. Actually, Obama has been tougher on the one percent than most progressives give him credit for.

Start with taxes. The Bush tax cuts haven’t gone completely away, but at the very high end they have been pretty much reversed; plus there are additional high-end taxes associated with Obamacare. The result is that taxes on wealthy Americans have basically been rolled back to pre-Reagan levels:



- more -

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/01/26/obama-and-the-one-percent


The new heatlh care law raised the payroll tax for high income earners and taxed investment income.

Net Investment Income Tax

A new Net Investment Income Tax goes into effect starting in 2013. The 3.8 percent Net Investment Income Tax applies to individuals, estates and trusts that have certain investment income above certain threshold amounts. The IRS and the Treasury Department have issued proposed regulations on the Net Investment Income Tax. Comments may be submitted electronically, by mail or hand delivered to the IRS. For additional information on the Net Investment Income Tax, see our questions and answers.

Additional Medicare Tax

A new Additional Medicare Tax goes into effect starting in 2013. The 0.9 percent Additional Medicare Tax applies to an individual’s wages, Railroad Retirement Tax Act compensation, and self-employment income that exceeds a threshold amount based on the individual’s filing status. The threshold amounts are $250,000 for married taxpayers who file jointly, $125,000 for married taxpayers who file separately, and $200,000 for all other taxpayers. An employer is responsible for withholding the Additional Medicare Tax from wages or compensation it pays to an employee in excess of $200,000 in a calendar year. The IRS and the Department of the Treasury have issued proposed regulations on the Additional Medicare Tax. Comments may be submitted electronically, by mail or hand delivered to the IRS. For additional information on the Additional Medicare Tax, see our questions and answers.

http://www.irs.gov/uac/Affordable-Care-Act-Tax-Provisions

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Response to ProSense (Reply #17)

Thu May 29, 2014, 09:19 PM

37. Questions:

 

Does that include "capital gains"? Inheritance tax? What does it look like for the top 200 tax returns?

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #37)

Fri May 30, 2014, 06:41 AM

53. I see you didn't answer my question

You know why? The statement is nonsense, as is a few other points in the OP.

Do you have a link to a poll showing two-thirds supports something that isn't accurate?

"Does that include "capital gains"? Inheritance tax? What does it look like for the top 200 tax returns?"

It does include "capital gains," and what does the "the top 200 tax returns" have to do with your claim?




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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu May 29, 2014, 07:43 PM

19. There is no hard left of any stature in the US.

 

We've let the wingnuts redefine up as down and black as white.

And now we're paying the cost.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu May 29, 2014, 07:45 PM

20. Centrist Exceptionalism

 

If you're any to the left of a centrist or any to the right, you're an extremist and you're all the same. This represents a failure in logic and is widely used by a handful of dull and unimaginative people. There's no truth in it, of course, but if George W Bush taught us anything, he taught us that repeating a lie over and over will cause some people to eventually believe it. And that's what they're after. Screw 'em--they've got nothing.

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Response to DisgustipatedinCA (Reply #20)

Thu May 29, 2014, 08:02 PM

25. +1. The center is not the same as the middle.

The "middle" is where the country is. The "center" is where the country gets sold out.

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Response to DisgustipatedinCA (Reply #20)

Thu May 29, 2014, 08:58 PM

32. Nice phrasing!

Centrism is generally mealy-mouthed platitudes and a dim-witted, at best, understanding of the world. It's a way to seem respectable without actually doing the work of making oneself respectable.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu May 29, 2014, 07:53 PM

22. Let's not forget, Hilary Clinton, our next president, was a Goldwater Republican. YUK!

 

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Response to YOHABLO (Reply #22)

Thu May 29, 2014, 08:52 PM

31. Still is.

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Response to Fearless (Reply #31)

Fri May 30, 2014, 10:52 AM

83. Yup, she still is. You're right about that.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu May 29, 2014, 08:02 PM

24. And hear I am stuck in the middle with you

Which is not a bad thing...I could have drank the Kool Aid and been a talking robot.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu May 29, 2014, 08:28 PM

26. It IS to the Beltway.

 

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu May 29, 2014, 08:33 PM

28. Recall the quote attributed to Adlai Stevenson

“If the Republicans will stop telling lies about the Democrats, we will stop telling the truth about them.”

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Response to Simeon Salus (Reply #28)

Fri May 30, 2014, 06:18 AM

49. That was a good one.

From a long time ago.

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Response to Simeon Salus (Reply #28)

Fri May 30, 2014, 10:56 AM

84. Still a good one but it needs to be updated a bit:

"If the Third Way will stop telling lies about the Progressives, we will stop telling the truth about them."

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu May 29, 2014, 08:40 PM

29. Is this comrade eddie are benghazi thread?

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu May 29, 2014, 09:01 PM

33. Thank You For Sharing

eom

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Fri May 30, 2014, 06:17 AM

48. Way to go, Manny!

If two thirds of Americans favor those things, that makes those things CENTRIST.

But that does not stop the Third Way assholes and their media allies from trying to define centrist as something that it isn't.

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Response to Enthusiast (Reply #48)

Fri May 30, 2014, 06:36 AM

52. Exactly!!!

 

I now see the Centrist apologia as just dragging the left to the Right.
Because the right is so fucking profitable.

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Response to djean111 (Reply #52)

Fri May 30, 2014, 06:53 AM

56. Yes.

Listen how they claim Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren are too liberal to be elected.

While Bernie and Elizabeth are as centrist as can be on every damned issue.

One's position on the issues should be the determining factor in political labels.

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Response to Enthusiast (Reply #48)

Fri May 30, 2014, 06:46 AM

55. Yeah, "way to go, Manny!"

Post anything and we, the "vast majority" will believe it, even when it's just an unsubstantiated claim, like this the one about the Bush tax cuts. There is no such thing as repealing the other "two-thirds" of the Bush tax cuts affecting the wealthy. The tax cuts for everyone in the top one percent was repealed.




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Response to ProSense (Reply #55)

Fri May 30, 2014, 06:54 AM

57. ?

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Response to Enthusiast (Reply #57)

Fri May 30, 2014, 06:56 AM

58. LOL!

Hi-five!!!



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Response to ProSense (Reply #55)

Fri May 30, 2014, 10:13 AM

74. My bad, it should be 82% not two-thirds

 

Budget Deal Makes Permanent 82 Percent of President Bush’s Tax Cuts

I regret the error. Even more, I regret the situation we've been put in.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #74)

Fri May 30, 2014, 11:13 AM

86. Really?

"My bad, it should be 82% not two-thirds"

When you wrote "fair taxation of the wealthy - repealing the other [strike] two-thirds[/strike] 82% of the Bush tax cuts would be a good start"

...you were referring to repealing the tax cuts for those not in the top one percent?

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Response to ProSense (Reply #86)

Fri May 30, 2014, 03:34 PM

112. Sadly

 

Not only will he not respond to his intentional misrepresentation of the facts, most people who are following lockstep wont see this rebuttal.

Thanks for trying though.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #74)

Fri May 30, 2014, 11:25 AM

89. BTW, that bill extend long-term unemployment benefits for one year.

It expired at the end of December, and Democrats have been fighting to have it renewed.

Elizabeth Warren: This is just wrong
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024339902

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Fri May 30, 2014, 06:46 AM

54. You forgot to add "When blaming everything on Obama"

 

Both the hard-left and the hard-right love to do that. But of course, you knew that already.

And please, spare me with pretending to be the middle.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Fri May 30, 2014, 07:18 AM

59. I don't think our tent is too big, it's just the wrong shape.

 

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Response to Scuba (Reply #59)

Fri May 30, 2014, 07:53 AM

61. That's right. It ought to be shaped like that cute picture of Obama playing with puppies.

Cuz that's what being a Democrat is all about, right?

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Response to beerandjesus (Reply #61)

Fri May 30, 2014, 08:09 AM

62. Nothing else matters.

 

Except, to some of us, policy.

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Response to Scuba (Reply #62)

Fri May 30, 2014, 08:34 AM

64. Whoa, policy? You must be HARD left.

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Response to beerandjesus (Reply #64)

Fri May 30, 2014, 08:52 AM

66. Yes, I'm one of Rahm's "fucking retards".

 

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Fri May 30, 2014, 07:38 AM

60. Good thread

and everyone I'm reading here agreeing with you.

DU rec

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Fri May 30, 2014, 08:29 AM

63. "the Left" has been a convenient straw bogeyman for generations

Today's lazy sloganeers would throw Charlie Pierce, the Rude Pundit, and Juan Cole under the bus of "the Left that deserves to be hated and denounced by the president's supporters." Along with the Pulitzer judges, Jimmy Carter... who's next under the bus?

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Fri May 30, 2014, 08:57 AM

68. Spot on

 

Thanks, Manny

K&R

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Fri May 30, 2014, 09:45 AM

71. Me, I want *unfair* taxation for the rich.

Guess that makes me far Right under the new rules.

-- Mal

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Fri May 30, 2014, 09:57 AM

72. According to the rightwingers here who are busily recalibrating "the center," Hubert Humphrey

 

...would be "hard left"

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Fri May 30, 2014, 10:41 AM

79. I thought it was obvious

that we now had a four party system in the US. In addition to Democratic candidates; on the left, hard left, on the right, republicans, have the tea party. Both parties spend too much of their time mooching campaign funds. Bernie Sanders is the answer, IMO.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Fri May 30, 2014, 10:49 AM

82. Stop making sense!

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Fri May 30, 2014, 12:04 PM

90. damn right

When the so called 'hard left' has the power of the koch brothers...then we can talk. Until then dumbest argument ever!

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Fri May 30, 2014, 12:12 PM

92. Mainstream-Center FDR/LBJ Democrat here,

......now labeled a Fringe Leftist in the "New Democrat" 3rd Way Centrist Party.

I haven't changed,
but something sure has "changed".



[font color=firebrick][center]"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans.
I want a party that will STAND UP for Working Americans."
---Paul Wellstone [/font]
[/center] [center] [/font]
[font size=1]photo by bvar22
Shortly before Sen Wellstone was killed[/center]
[/font]

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Fri May 30, 2014, 01:31 PM

106. Also, wanting to scrap the for-profit school experime and go back to public schools is "libertarian"

 

Some funny stuff posted these days

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #106)

Fri May 30, 2014, 10:20 PM

120. Funny the correlation between tolerance and even embracing privatization of all sorts

, the get out of jail free cards for the rich and connected, the acceptance environmental devastation, least insistent on strong regulations and the resources to enforce them and the folks hollering Libertarian!!11!!

The very folks the swallow the soul of the ideology hurling it at everyone deviating from the corporate line is beyond laughable on it's face.

But hell, even by this stupid definition I'm going to go with better Libertarian than flat out fascist, no matter how broad demographically that fascism promises to be (when not too terribly inconvenient).

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Fri May 30, 2014, 03:11 PM

109. I agree, Manny. We are not the 'hard left' but what's left of the middle

What amazes me is that the dialog has gone so far right that if you dare to open your mouth and ask how some policy will actually HELP Americans, and advocate policies that do help us, you're painted as a (gasp!!) socialist (shiver!)

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Response to PatrickforO (Reply #109)

Fri May 30, 2014, 03:29 PM

111. why alienate your base?

To woo people who will not vote for you?

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Fri May 30, 2014, 03:55 PM

114. "repealing the other 82% of the Bush tax cuts"

Finally! Something that bush* wasn't responsible for. (He wasn't the one to make them permanent, he merely established them to begin with).

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Fri May 30, 2014, 05:55 PM

116. Sometimes I seriously doubt if some on DU even know the basics of our political system

 

and the way the government works.

Helpful tip: The people and the government are not the same, and "We the People" only elect a small number of federal officials (537-the President, Vice President, and the Congress) out of several million people who work for the government. And of those 536, exactly two of them are accountable to ALL of the voters, once every four years. And half the population doesn't bother, for whatever reason, to participate in electing the head of state AND government of the most powerful country in the world. This, of course, is without mentioning the role of the Electoral College, congressional gerrymandering, unequal representation in the Senate, the role of the Supreme Court and all the other parts of the judicial system, concerns over federalism and states rights and local control, the role of the mass media, the role of money in politics, and so many other factors that make enacting a progressive/left-wing/liberal agenda-even if it's popular with the public, as you and others have noted-so damn difficult.

I understand your frustration-really, I do. I share many of your concerns, believe me. But that doesn't mean we can ignore the reality of how our political system works.

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