Can we discuss the two minutes between George's 911 call and Trayvon's death

[Quixote1818]

Last edited Sun Apr 1, 2012, 05:38 PM - Edit history (1)

Here is what we know:

George called the police at 7:11 and the call lasted about 3 minutes

Trayvon's girlfriend called Trayvon at 7:12 and the call lasted 4 minutes. This shows me the girlfriend's story is probably very reliable.

At 7:17 police arrived on scene and found Trayvon dead meaning he was probably shot at around 7:16 meaning the scuffle probably lasted only about 1 minute since his girlfriend heard the phone go dead probably at 7:16.

The other thing I notice about this is Trayvon is dead within two minutes of Zimmerman getting off the phone with police so he probably ran to the other side of the building and cut Trayvon off in less than a minute of the end of his 911 call.

Also, the 911 call that has Trayvon crying in it, lasts 40 seconds before the gun shot was fired.

All I can say is everything happed too fast for them to exchange words and for Trayvon then to go back and jump him. We have a 1 minute window between the end of the phone call with his girlfriend and Trayvon's death and the cries for help lasted 40 seconds. I am guessing the scuffle only lasted about 30 seconds before Zimmerman got the upper hand and fired the shot.

On Edit I want to add this point because I think it's very important: If Zimmerman got between Trayvon and his Dad's girlfriends (place of safety) by cutting him off, that would be dam scary for Trayvon. He would not want to run back away from the place of safety. Zimmerman said he was headed toward the back exit of the property which was also where his Dad's girlfriends was. Zimmerman absolutely didn't want the "F___ing Coon" to get away and so he put himself between Trayvon and the back exit. Trayvon was blocked in at that point.

[Vattel]

1. I am glad that you are honest enough to say that you are guessing.

For all you or I know, Martin threw the first punch and had the upperhand until Zimmerman shot him.

[Quixote1818]

3. It's possible that Martin did throw a punch that landed because his emotions

and fear were running high. OR perhaps Zimmerman grabbed him and Trayvon then threw a punch. Since Zimmerman has been shown to have a temper and already thought Martin was a criminal in his twisted mind, he shot Martin not out of fear but in anger. Especially since Martin was crying for help and had lost the upper hand. That just makes sense to me but we will have to let forensics fill the gaps.

[Vattel]

5. It's not clear that Martin and not Zimmerman was crying for help.

Witnesses seem to disagree about that. The results of the voice analyses on the 911 tapes may play a huge role in determining whether Zimmerman is ultimately convicted of a crime. If the anlayses show clearly that the cries are Martin's, then Zimmerman's goose is cooked.

edited for spelling

[Quixote1818]

7. Well, at least two voice recognition experts say with a high probability

that the cries were not from Zimmerman and they were probably from a child.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/31/trayvon-martin-shooting-911-call-screams_n_1394224.html?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl1%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D148255

[mainer]

9. Big man has a gun. And he's crying like a baby for help?

Because a 150 pound beanpole is beating him up?

Really, now. Think about it. Why cry for help when all he had to do was shoot the kid?

[spin]

10. A good little fighter can often beat a much larger less experienced fighter ...

It isn't the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog.

Note: I am in no way defending Zimmerman as from the information that I currently have, I feel he initiated and escalated the situation.

[LiberalFighter]

22. How much experience does GZ have in fighting?

He possibly had some training at a police academy.

[spin]

28. That's a good question ...

and unanswered at this point.

Since I have read no reports that said that Martin had a history of violence or any that said he had martial arts training, I doubt that he possessed the skills necessary to put Zimmerman on the ground.

While it is probably irrelevant in this situation I should point out that sometimes a good street fighter can defeat an experienced martial artist. A street fighter has a limited number of tricks but he often is damn good at using them. A martial artist may have never seen or practiced against these tactics in a dojo.

[csziggy]

37. According to reports, he'd been a bouncer at illegal house parties

I believe that has been posted here somewhere. If that is true, he would know how to fight dirty - dirtier than any 17 year old kid with Trayvon's background would know how to fight.

GZ had not been to any police academy. He supposedly was trying to get a degree in criminal justice, but was still taking general education courses. He'd taken a citizen police course with the Sanford Police Department, but that did not cover self defense, just general police procedures.

[Downtown Hound]

40. Yeah, maybe a black belt or trained boxer or something could take out somebody 100 pounds heavier

than them. But for most people, it just ain't gonna happen.

[spin]

68. I agree the average person would get beat in a fight ...

with a black belt. However there are street fighters who often pose a challenge for a experienced martial artist and would wipe out an untrained person even if he were much larger.

The Black Belt Myth
By Damian Ross

At least once a week I get an email from some misguided and offended martial artist with his or her knickers all in a bunch asking me where I get off saying "Martial Arts Will Fail You in a Street Attack". But facts are facts.

***snip***

Can mixed martial artists, boxers, judo players, and wrestlers be good street fighters? Sure. Any kind of training is better than no training at all. But I'm not talking about people in the local pub having a go at each other. Leave the bar fight out of it. I am talking about a real street smart criminal that would rather see you dead.

A street attack is an entirely different proposition than combative sport or a hobby. The techniques used by depraved street thugs range from the simple and straight forward to brutal and down right nasty. So you think that junkie is just trying to slap you? No, he's got razor blades between his fingers and he's trying to slice your face open. (Thanks for the example Bill). Never underestimate the depths of human nature or the levels to which some people will go to impose their will over another human being.

A street attack or close quarters battle has entirely different dynamics than a competitive sport. In a competitive fight, the possibility of being seriously injured or killed is not a paramount concern. You will suffer the same sort of injuries you might expect with any contact sport, but if it were really trying to be lethal you would have people dying in the ring on a regular basis. The combative sport is only SYMBOLIC of the real thing. The Black Belt Myth
http://www.selfdefense-martialarts.com/BlackBelt.html

To be fair, Damian Ross is selling a product but he has a good point. An experienced and tough street thug doesn't know a lot of techniques but he is very good at the ones he does know and a martial artist may have never been exposed to them. He also is interested in winning the fight at all costs even if it results in the death of his opponent. He can be very brutal and he doesn't follow any rules when he fights. His mindset is entirely different than the average person who has training in martial arts.

Note that in no way am I saying that Trayvon Martin was a street fighter. I am merely pointing out that a smaller experienced fighter can beat a martial artist. The fighting techniques are different. In the dojo during competition the martial artist is fighting against an opponent who has a similar fighting style. There are rules in the fight. On the street things can be far different. In most cases the training that the martial artist has will enable him to have an excellent chance of winning but there are no guarantees.

I remember my jujitsu instructor talking about a fight between a thug and an individual who had a black belt in karate. The black belt won the fight and turned his back to walk away. The thug recovered and picked up a rock and hit the black belt on the back of his neck. The damage caused a bone fracture and the black belt ended up paralyzed from the neck down.

[Downtown Hound]

76. Yes, it's true that anything can happen on the street

Last edited Mon Apr 2, 2012, 06:17 PM - Edit history (1)

But I've also found the whole street fighter thing to be somewhat overblown. All you need to do is look at Kimbo Slice. He was the king of street fighting, but he was practically helpless against trained MMA fighters. It's true that you do need to look out for different things on the street than in the ring, but I would bet my money on a martial artist against your basic street fighter any day of the week.

[spin]

77. I agree which is why I said ...

In most cases the training that the martial artist has will enable him to have an excellent chance of winning but there are no guarantees.

[Vattel]

11. Have you ever been attacked by a 150 pound 17-year-old?

He might well have been screaming for help. Again, I don't know if the cries were his or Martin's and neither do you.

[mainer]

16. If I were 200 pounds and had a gun, I think I could handle that.

He could have fired any time. But instead he chooses to scream "help, help!"

[Vattel]

24. You'd prefer that he fired before he tried to get help?

I mean, come on people, I am just suggesting that we don't know what we don't know.

[mainer]

25. The screams were described as desperate

Yeah, so he's holding a gun on a kid and screaming desperately? Why couldn't he just cover the kid with his gun and wait for the police, who were already on the way?

[Vattel]

33. Good question. Was it really necessary to shoot as opposed to draw and aim?

It gets tricky if Martin is on top of Zimmerman because he can possibly get the gun from him if he only draws it.

[EOTE]

82. If Martin was on top of Zimmerman, Zimmerman would have had blood all over him.

He didn't. There wasn't a drop of blood on his clothing. Lemme guess, the police took Zimmerman to the dry cleaners first? Yeah, that's the ticket.

[Vattel]

83. Really? How do you know that? Do gunshot wounds always bleed all over the place immediately?

[EOTE]

87. Wow, you're not very good at this game.

Yes, if you shoot a person while he's on top of you, you'd IMMEDIATELY get blood all over you. You don't seem to have the faintest grasp of how a human body works.

[Vattel]

97. Actually it depends on what the bullet hits.

Look it up.

[EOTE]

98. You are entirely and utterly wrong.

There is NO fatal gunshot wound that wouldn't provide a boat load of blood on a person beneath the person getting shot. You're very good at making up information when it suits your purpose. You're far less good on that information making a lick of sense. But hey, you gotta defend your racist killers, don't you?q

[Saving Hawaii]

102. I've been around people who've been fatally shot before.

Little low-velocity handgun round? They don't always produce very much blood. Sometimes they don't bleed much at all. Just looks like there's a small hole in the person's body where they shell went in. It really doesn't surprise me at all that Zimmerman wouldn't have any blood from the gunshot wound on him. It's not that uncommon. The big, gory wounds with blood everywhere that you see on TV and in the movies are not typical. They're Hollywood.

[Vattel]

103. You must be wrong! and racist too!

(sarcasm)

[EOTE]

106. No, perhaps just really ignorant.

I'll leave the racism to you.

[EOTE]

105. No way in hell his shirt would be clean. PERIOD.

He would have at least a fair amount of blood on him. If person on top of you receives a fatal wound from you, you're going to have a fair amount of blood on you. No way in hell that shirt would be clean. No jury in the world would be so idiotic to believe your assertion.

[Saving Hawaii]

108. Dude, Ive done this before.

Low-velocity, 9mm rounds from a handgun don't typically cause that much damage. The entry wound will look like somebody poked a tiny hole in the person. If there's an exit wound (out the back) that's usually a little more dramatic. There's not always a ton of blood. There's often not really any blood right away. Doesn't mean the bullet didn't go in and cause fatal injuries. It's not uncommon for gunshot wounds to not look very bad at all but to be life-threatening or fatal. Just depends what internal anatomy the bullet hits.

[EOTE]

109. Dude, you've shot people while they were wrestling on top of you?

I kind of doubt this, but I'll bite, describe this experience.

And I never said there'd be a ton of blood, but there'd be a fair amount of it. I never once made a comment about the wound, because I'm sure the wound is not terribly large or significant, but there's no way that a person underneath someone while they are being shot would not have blood on them. The body is a huge mass of pressurized blood vessels. A fatal wound combined with gravity would ensure that Zimmerman would at least have some drops of blood on him. Zimmerman had NOTHING.

On edit: I know what a damned exit wound is, no need to dumb things down for me. There is no way in hell one can shoot a person fatally who was wrestling on top of them without getting blood on them. Common sense just ain't so common nowadays.

[uppityperson]

100. Are you really saying if a person laying on you gets shot in the chest, you won't get blood on you?

Seriously?

How?

Oh, I know! If the person on you has had all their blood drained already. Ok. That would work.

[EOTE]

81. Simply brandishing the gun would have sufficed.

You've got a very strange mind indeed if you believe that a 250lb man with a gun would be crying and pleading for his life against a 150lb kid. Really? You'd believe that for one second? If so, you're a very easy mark.

[Vattel]

85. Zimmerman is clearly no where near 250 lbs.

And I don't know why you think I might believe that he was pleading for his life. He didn't claim that he was.

As for whether brandishing a gun would have sufficed, perhaps it would have. But if Martin was on top of Zimmerman, punching his face or trying to smash is head into the concrete, the law would not demand that Zimmerman brandish his gun rather than using it.

[EOTE]

86. He clearly is. He's a buff guy.

What makes you think all those reports are inaccurate?

And yes, he did claim that he was pleading for his life. Otherwise, it's clear that he shot Trayvon Martin while he was pleading for his. You obviously know incredibly little about this case.

[Vattel]

89. The suggestion that he is 250 lbs was based on the old arrest report.

Compare the photo of the weighty Zimmerman that everyone has seen to recent photos and videos of him. He has obviously lost a lot of weight. And you say that I know incredibly little about this case.

[EOTE]

90. He's buff in the new pics, he was doughy before.

You do know that muscle weighs more than fat, right? I'm going to go by every other ignorant statement that you've said and I'm quite sure that you don't know that.

[Vattel]

91. And so you admit you are just guessing his weight based on looking at him?

I am 6' tall and used to be pretty buff, but I was never anywhere near 250. I've read that Zimmerman is 5'8" or 5'9." His friend said he is 170. That may be not be true, but 250? No way.

[EOTE]

92. You're the one who's guessing.

Almost all of the reports have said 250 and by the current pics of him, that seems far more likely than 170. You, on the other hand, are going by the word of his friend, who has EVERY reason to lie to defend the guy, and you're taking it as the word of gospel. Funny how you always seem to stand on the side of the racists, but always dismiss logic and reason out of hand. Funny how that is.

[Vattel]

96. Don't misrepresent what I said.

I said that the 170 number might be wrong. That is hardly taking it as gospel truth. The reports of 250 pounds were based on the old arrest report. Try to keep up.

[EOTE]

99. The reports of 250 pounds were NOT based on the old arrest report.

And you ARE buying the 170 number, you said it as if it were accurate, NOT as if that number solely came from Zimmerman's friend. I don't need to misrepresent anything that you've said, you've made it quite clear that you'll defend this racist asshole to the end.

[Vattel]

104. Here's what I said:

"His friend said he is 170. That may be not be true, but 250? No way."

You responded by claiming that I was taking what his friend said as the gospel truth. Anyone who is not an idiot will recognize that as misrepresenting me.

And by the way, where do you think the 250 pound figure came from? I would genuinely like to know if there was some other source of that number.

[EOTE]

107. You're more apt to believe the friend's description than the myriad media reports.

You've said that clearly. You believe one of his friends, all of whom, including Zimmerman who have been caught in numerous lies, rather than completely consistent media reports. You give Zimmerman every single ridiculous benefit of the doubt, yet clearly don't care a single whit about a dead boy. It's sickening.

[Vattel]

115. The media reports of his weight are not "completely consistent."

The NYTimes, for example:

"However it started, witnesses described to the 911 dispatcher what resulted: the neighborhood watch coordinator, 5 foot 9 and 170 pounds, and the visitor, 6 foot 1 and 150, wrestling on the ground."

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/02/us/trayvon-martin-shooting-prompts-a-review-of-ideals.html?_r=2&hp=&pagewanted=all

Feel free to admit your mistake.

What do you think the media reports of his being 250 pounds were based on? Did the police weigh him the night of the killing?

[PotatoChip]

20. Two different court qualified sound experts say the screams were unlikely to be Zimmerman's.

Source: Orlando Sentinel

Owen, a court-qualified expert witness and former chief engineer for the New York Public Library's Rodgers and Hammerstein Archives of Recorded Sound, is an authority on biometric voice analysis — a computerized process comparing attributes of voices to determine whether they match.

-snip-

"I took all of the screams and put those together, and cut out everything else," Owen says.

The software compared that audio to Zimmerman's voice. It returned a 48 percent match. Owen said to reach a positive match with audio of this quality, he'd expect higher than 90 percent.

"As a result of that, you can say with reasonable scientific certainty that it's not Zimmerman," Owen says, stressing that he cannot confirm the voice as Trayvon's, because he didn't have a sample of the teen's voice to compare.

Forensic voice identification is not a new or novel concept; in fact, a recent U.S. Department of Justice committee report notes that federal interest in the technology "has a history of nearly 70 years."

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-31/news/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-911-20120331_1_voice-identification-expert-reasonable-scientific-certainty

[Vattel]

26. That is significant.

I hadn't read that. Thanks for the information. If the experts all agree, it looks bad for Zimmerman.

[Quixote1818]

27. If they have a sample of Martin's voice and get a greater than 90% match

That will be pretty devastating.

[Vattel]

32. Yes it will.

[Downtown Hound]

42. Thank God they have that phone call

I'd hate to think of what Trayvon's family would have had to go through to get justice and respect from people like you if they didn't.

[EOTE]

88. Seriously, it's sickening.

For some posters here, there could be crystal clear video of Trayvon Martin pleading for his life while Zimmerman shoots him and they'd insist that Zimmerman was only protecting himself from the gigantic, enraged black man. It makes me sick that there are those on DU who think like that.

[maddezmom]

93. and the timing and content of the phone calls seem to prove Zimmerman is lying

according to this account by Trayvon's dad by Servino:

Sanford police have stopped talking to reporters about the case, and Serino has never spoken publicly about his role in it, but here is how Martin recalls what Serino said: "He told me Zimmerman's story was that Zimmerman was of course following him and that Trayvon approached his vehicle, walked up to the car and asked Zimmerman, ‘Why are your following me?' Zimmerman then rolls his car windows down, tells Trayvon ‘I'm not following you.' He rolls his car windows up.

"Trayvon walks off. Zimmerman said he started running between the buildings. Zimmerman gets out of his car. He comes around the building. Trayvon is hiding behind the building, waiting on him. Trayvon approaches him and says, ‘What's your problem, homes?' Zimmerman says ‘I don't have a problem.'

"Zimmerman starts to reach into his pocket to get his cellphone, and at that point Trayvon attacked him. He says Trayvon hits him. He falls on the ground. Trayvon jumps on top of him, takes his left hand and covers Zimmerman's mouth and tells him to shut the F up and continues to pound on him.

"At that point Zimmerman is able to unholster his weapon and fire a shot, striking Trayvon in the chest. Trayvon falls on his back and says, 'You got me.'" The Martin family has been telling their story as part of a campaign to have Zimmerman arrested. He himself has kept quiet.

more:http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-rt-us-usa-florida-shooting-trayvonbre8320uk-20120403,0,2751266.story

The first call came from Zimmerman.

“He’s just looking at all the houses,” Zimmerman said. “Now he’s just staring at me.”

Then Zimmerman said the suspicious person, who appeared to be black and in his late teens, had his hand in his waist band. “Something’s wrong with him. He’s coming to check me out.”

As he narrates where the man was headed, the dispatcher asks, “are you following him?”

“Yeah,” Zimmerman said.

“We don’t need you to do that.”

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/16/2697604/trayvon-martins-parents-criss.html#storylink=cpy

He stays on the phone a while after this with the dispatcher. Admits he's following him and yet in his story to the police he says it's Trayvon. Just doesn't add up.

[PotatoChip]

94. Yep. Even if we were to believe GZ's *own* account,

via his dad in the first part of your post, it logically makes little sense.

GZ contradicts himself from the very start by claiming to say (to Trayvon) that he was not following him, only to do just that in the next paragraph. Supposedly (again by GZ's own account) after that reply to Trayvon, he then gets out of his vehicle and does what? He follows Trayvon behind the buildings where supposedly the young man is "waiting on him". {Yeah, right.}

Why would GZ get out of his vehicle anyway if Trayvon was as aggressive as GZ makes it sound? If GZ was truly not following Trayvon, why wouldn't he just drive away? Because it didn't happen that way, and GZ knows it. Zimmerman's very own account of what happened makes no sense.

You're right, it doesn't add up at all.

It's infuriating to think that Zimmerman is still a free man and might not have even had to worry at this point, had it not been for the public outcry. We can't let this story fade away.

[Downtown Hound]

41. Actually, I've been attacked by a bigger human being than that and no one ended up dead

And all the current voice analysis says it wasn't Zimmerman crying for help.

[arcane1]

17. Crying like a baby while unholstering his gun and aiming it

Listening to the 911 call, I find it unlikely that Zimmerman was screaming all the way up until the moment he pulled the trigger. It just makes no sense.

[Quixote1818]

21. Bingo! nt

[Zoeisright]

74. Exactly.

That was a child's cry, not a grown man's.

[libertypirate]

57. Hot head Zimmerman crying for help?

I have never even heard of a hot head suddenly start crying for help.

[EOTE]

80. No identifiable witness says that Zimmerman was crying for help.

Only an anonymous one. And we do know that at least one witness was coerced into saying that it was Zimmerman. The cries are definitely Martin's.

[pnwmom]

4. Let's pretend Martin threw the first punch, as difficult as that is to believe.

He's being chased all over the neighborhood by some big guy for no reason. Would throwing a punch be such an unreasonable reaction?

Don't forget, this is in a state where, apparently, you need very little reason even to shoot a GUN. And yet we're supposed to think throwing a punch at a stalker would be a very aggressive action?

[Vattel]

6. I don't think it would be such an unreasonable reaction.

But the issue is not whether it was reasonable for Martin to attack Zimmerman. The issue is whether Zimmerman reasonably believed that he was threatened with great bodily harm.

[yardwork]

12. So if Trayvon had shot Zimmerman, that would be ok too?

[Downtown Hound]

43. I can't help but notice that Vattel didn't answer this question

I guess the stand your ground law only applies to some and not others.

[Ecumenist]

48. Wonder why it applies to GZ but NOT the Trayon? We tell children and teens to fight, scream and

run like hell to get away from weirdos, strange people and stalkers. Why wouldn't it apply to him?

[Vattel]

113. How perceptive of you. (sarcasm)

Isn't the answer to the question sort of obvious? If Martin reasonably feared death or great bodily harm, then his shooting Zimmerman would have been (legally) justifiable under Florida's SYG law even if he could have retreated but instead stood his ground.

[Downtown Hound]

116. So shooting Zimmerman would be okay

but not punching him?

[Vattel]

117. Huh? Punching him would be okay too.

[pnwmom]

50. Exactly. I guess he who shoots first, wins. n/t

[yardwork]

51. Nice law we have there. My state has one too.

Somehow I doubt that a black person would be give the same benefit of the doubt that is being extended to George Zimmerman for over a month now.

[pnwmom]

54. If the races were reversed, I also can't believe there would have been the same lack of concern. n/t

[noiretextatique]

46. the SYG law applies more to Trayvon than to zimmerman

since it is becoming clearer with each passing day that zimmerman was the aggressor. and it is also clear that zimmerman lied about the injuries he sustained, and therefore lied about how he claims he was injured. liar...and murderer.

[LiberalFighter]

23. And for all we know GZ instigated the confrontaion verbally

that resulted in Martin reasoning that he needs to do something to save himself.

Eye witnesses have been creating holes in GZ's testimony that suggest he concocted a story.

[jwirr]

59. Got the upper hand while he was talking on the phone to his girl friend? Wouldn't he need both hands

for that? Not to mention he was probably still holding the skittles and tea. Look Mom, no hands.

[shimonitanegi]

66. How did you know that Martin threw the first punch?

There is no single eyewitness that could confirm your story.
Now you are the one who is guessing, aren't you?
Or you just took the killer's story at face value, which is ridiculous.

[sabrina 1]

71. It doesn't matter whether he did or not. HE was being accosted by a total stranger

and what I wish is that he had managed to knock Zimmerman out cold. Had he been able to do that, he would be alive today and he could honestly claim self defense which had an absolute right to do.

Why is it important to you whether Trayvon threw the first punch or not? What would you do if some strange person had been following you, then cut you off blocking you from getting to your own home when all you were doing was returning from the store?

[Ruby the Liberal]

2. It is a pretty tight timeline.

How someone's life could be "in danger of being spoon fed and wearing diapers" in less than a minute would suggest that Mike Tyson himself was tossing punches.

[csziggy]

38. AND all that head bashing didn't leave enough marks

For the EMTs who treated him at the scene to take him to the hospital to check him for scrambled brains, or for the police who had placed him in custody to take him to the hospital so the PD wouldn't be liable, or for any marks or blood to show on the SPD security recordings that have been released.

Oh, and how about the interviews with the funeral director who prepared Trayvon's body for burial and saw no marks that indicated a struggle - no cuts or bruising to his hands or marks of any other kind?

I get the feeling that GZ pulled the gun on Trayvon pretty much as soon as the kid confronted him ("Why are you following me?" according to the girlfriend) and the 40 seconds of screaming was Trayvon begging this gun carrying crazy man not to shoot him.

[Sulla]

8. The salient questions: After running, where did Trayvon disappear to?

How did he end up being killed back close to where he was originally spotted by Zimmerman?

[yardwork]

13. Maybe he never ran.

[magical thyme]

14. who said Trayvon was running?

the OP said "Zimmerman probably ran"

[arcane1]

15. Probably hiding from him, that's my guess

and then later shot to death in a neighbor's back yard.

[Sulla]

18. Why not just go home?

He was certainly close enough. If he was hiding nearby, wouldn't he have been able to see and hear Zimmerman while he was on his cell phone?

[arcane1]

19. Last I heard, he was on his way home when he was accosted by ZImmerman n/t

[K Gardner]

29. Didn't the girlfriend say it was raining and Trayvon had ducked under

a back porch for shelter, at some point. I do remember reading that somewhere.

[Sulla]

31. So how could it have happened?

Martin takes off and immediately hides. Zimmerman comes by and can't find Martin, so he walks back in the direction of his truck. Thinking the coast is clear, Martin pops out and starts walking toward his house. Zimmerman then comes back, sees Martin, and accosts him?

[arcane1]

34. That makes more sense than Zimmerman's story

and it's assuming he's telling the truth about going back to his car.

[Oilwellian]

35. But Zimmerman did find Martin

According to Martin's girlfriend, she heard their initial exchange. Martin: "Why are you following me?" Zimmerman: "What are you doing here?" And then she heard a scuffle and Martin's phone went dead.

There are other witnesses to this scuffle as well. But that was not the time that Martin was shot. At some point in the scuffle, Martin broke away and continued toward his father's home. He traveled 3 condos further when Martin caught up with him. That is when the 911 call occurred where you could hear Martin's cries for help. Ms. Cutcher is also a witness to where Zimmerman was, within seconds of the gunshot. According to her, he was standing over Martin's body, straddled, and his hand was on his back. She also claims there was no fighting immediately before the gunshot, only the cries for help. After she spoke with neighbors, she learned a fight had occurred but that was 3 or 4 condos down from her back yard where Martin was shot. There's also the little boy whose testimony is consistent with Ms. Cutcher's. Zimmerman was standing, immediately after the gunshot. That doesn't fly with Zimmerman's version of events.

The 911 call that contains the 40 seconds of cries for help, leads us to question what was occurring during those 40 seconds. I have a pretty good idea what happened during that time and I suspect we will all be sickened by the details to come.

[csziggy]

39. Trayvon's path was pretty much straight to where he was staying

Take a look at the map on this page: http://marinadedave.com/journal/2012/3/22/the-tragedy-of-trayvon-martin.html

Trayvon was staying at the other end of the block from where his body was found - in an walk through of the death scene, Trayvon's father said "70 yards to the back door."

From the clubhouse, where GZ first saw Trayvon to where the body was found is about 422 feet. The amount of time from when GZ said the kid was running to when the screams are heard on the 911 call is maybe a couple of minutes.

If Trayvon walked at a normal rate, that amount of time is not far off. According to the phone call with his girlfriend, Trayvon did no run the entire way, just far enough to think he'd lost the guy following him. He wasn't "hanging around" or back tracking, he was just headed home for the night.

[Quixote1818]

44. If Zimmerman got between Trayvon and his Dad's girlfriends (place of safety)

by cutting him off, that would be dam scary for him. He would not want to run back away from the place of safety. Zimmerman said he was headed toward the back exit of the property which was also where his Dad's girlfriends was. Zimmerman absolutely didn't want the "F___ing Coon" to get away and so he put himself between Trayvon and the back exit. Trayvon was blocked in at that point.

[csziggy]

45. If anybody needed the protect of Stand Your Ground, it was Trayvon

Zimmerman was the aggressor and the one who stalked Trayvon. The kid was just trying to go home.

Now that it seems almost certain that it was Trayvon screaming for help*, Zimmerman's claims are discredited. If I were him, I would turn myself in for protective custody until the Grand Jury or the Special Prosecutor come to their decisions.

*I only say "almost certain" because Trayvon's voice has not been tested against the 911 screams. There is the possibility that when tested, his voice will not match either, which could mean that the test is not valid or that the recordings are not of sufficient quality for the software. That is highly unlikely since the expert said the files were very good quality in his MSNBC interview. http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/04/01/10963191-trayvon-martin-case-911-call-screams-not-george-zimmermans-2-experts-say?preview=true

[Quixote1818]

47. Please let there be a recording of Trayvon's voice

Because if there is an it's a 90% match or better then I think that could be enough to put Zimmerman behind bars. Why would he shoot a boy pleading for help? There is no possible explanation or defense in that case.

[Ruby the Liberal]

60. Someone out there has to have a voicemail

But proving beyond a shadow that it is Trayvon's voice in the VM may be challenged.

[csziggy]

65. I have no doubt that there are recordings of Trayvon's voice

Just not ones that the Orlando Sentinel could get hold of to use for this particular test. The Martin attorney is very smart - google Benjamin Crump and take a look at his bio at his firm's web site. I'm positive Crump will get the same test done by his own experts as soon as possible.

There was 44 seconds of pleading on the 911 recording. It's heartbreaking. From the first time I listened to it, I was very sure it was not Zimmerman. For that young man to beg like that for 44 seconds makes this first degree murder, IMO.

[Sulla]

55. Look at where Zimmerman's truck was parked.

Trayvon would have already been past Zimmerman's truck when Zimmerman got out to pursue after him, which means he would have been around the corner and down the sidewalk on which he was killed in no time. THEN another two minutes elapse before Zimmerman ends his call.

[Quixote1818]

62. So you are suggesting Trayvon was stalking Zimmerman while talking to his girlfriend?

Because that call ends at 7:16. Martin dies in the next minute. George is RUNNING after him and cutting him off at around 7:14 mark and clearly they came head to head while Trayvon was on the phone with his girlfriend at around 7:15 and 30 seconds maybe 45 seconds.

Zimmerman's call ends at 7:15 because it was 4 minutes long and started at 7:11. Don't believe me then check out how long it is here on the third video: http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/04/01/10963191-trayvon-martin-case-911-call-screams-not-george-zimmermans-2-experts-say?preview=true


The time line for Zimmerman to cut Trayvon off is spot on!

[csziggy]

70. Why does it matter where Trayvon was? He's the DEAD person in this situation

But if you want to figure this out - GZ reported Trayvon first when GZ was at the clubhouse. I'm thinking that since GZ lives at the far SW corner of the subdivision, he was on the road that goes in front of the clubhouse and was getting ready to turn left to go out the entrance when he saw Trayvon for the first time.

There are two possibilities for Trayvon's route - he could have come in the main entrance or he could have cut between townhouses at the NW corner of the subdivision where the brick wall starts along the main road in front of the subdivision. From the main road entrance to the little side structure next to the clubhouse is about 210 feet. From the corner where Trayvon could have cut through it's 395 feet. Coming that direction would fit what GZ said, "He's walking along looking at the houses."

GZ's call connects with the dispatcher at 19:09:34 - the dispatcher entered the first description and dispatched the first car at 19:11:17.

The average human walks about 3 mph or 265 feet per minute so if Trayvon came from that corner it would have taken almost two minutes for him to walk that distance, or the longest amount of time that GZ could have seen him. If Trayvon came in the front entrance, it would have taken him about 45 seconds. That amount of time fits with GZ saying at about 45 seconds into his call, "Now he's just staring at me." But it does not fit with GZ's further saying at 1:16 seconds into his call "He's coming to check me out."

We're now at 19:11:17.

GZ tells the dispatcher that Trayvon is running. At 19:11:59 the dispatcher enters that information in the call log. Trayvon's girlfriend connects with him at 19:12:00 (there were also calls from her at 18:54 and 19:04 - either the calls kept getting dropped or they would disconnect and she'd call back. I do not have a record of the length of each call but the last one according to sources lasted 4 minutes.) Trayvon tells his girlfriend that some guy was following him, that Trayvon had ducked under a porch and put his hood up, that he ran away from the guy and thought he lost the guy.

The girlfriend told Trayvon to run and he told he he was not running, he would walk fast. It's not clear how much of this information was shared as or after it happened. It's possible that some was shared (guy watching me, ducking under the porch, running) on the call that connected at 19:04 and that call may have been disconnected just before Trayvon ran - GZ, "He's got his hand in his waistband."

From the clubhouse porch where it is thought Trayvon stopped to raise his hood to the corner of the sidewalk where he turned to go home is 412 feet. At a walk it would take a little over a minute and a half to travel. If he started just before 19:12, that would get him to the corner of the sidewalk at 19:13:30. GZ's call ended at 19:13:45.

One of the versions of GZ's story claimed he "went to the next street then headed back." From where his truck was parked to the next street past where Trayvon would have turned is 344 feet, then 93 feet back to the corner of the sidewalk. It would have taken GZ over a minute and a half to walk that distance. If GZ left after the end of his call to SPD that would bring him back to the corner at 19:15:10.

The girlfriend's call ended at 19:16. She described hearing Trayvon ask "Why are you following me?" and a man ask "What are you doing here?" So Trayvon had a couple of unaccounted minutes and GZ had not quite a minute unaccounted.

The first 911 call came in at 19:16 and the screams, now KNOWN to not be GZ's went on for 44 seconds before the gunshot ended them. The first police units arrived at 1917

Trayvon's body was found roughly 40 feet up the path - it would take about ten seconds to travel that distance. But let's deal with the couple of minutes that Trayvon "lingered". He thought he had lost his follower, he's talking to his girlfriend. When he gets back to where he's staying, his 13 year old soon to be step brother will be there. I don't know about you, but when I was dating, I didn't want my little sister listening to my calls to boyfriends. IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT TRAYVON WAS DOING - he was not doing anything illegal. He was talking to his girl - the first and last love of his life, apparently.

We'll never know what GZ was doing with that extra 50 seconds - stalking Trayvon?

I think Trayvon had turned the corner and was spending time before he went back to the townhouse. Then this strange man who'd been following shows up. Exactly what happened in those last forty four seconds of Trayvon's life is known only to George Zimmerman, but from the tone of those screams, Trayvon was being terrorized by this vigilante who then shot him.

The times and quotes are from transcripts of the various calls which are at different places online; from my time checking the recording of GZ's call and the 911 call with the screams; from the initial police report available on the City of Sanford website; and from the reports of the girlfriend's call to Trayvon and screenshots of the call log shown on ABC News. The measurements are from Google Earth using their measuring tool.

[Sulla]

72. "IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT TRAYVON WAS DOING"

Sure it does! Zimmerman is claiming that Martin doubled back and attacked him. If it could be demonstrated that Martin had to have doubled back then we have to ask ourselves this: if he wasn't doubling back to confront Zimmerman in some way, what was he doing?

[Quixote1818]

73. Why are you so quick to believe the person with a history of violence

who was clearly stalking the boy and condem the person with no history of violence? Is it because he is black?

[csziggy]

78. Since Zimmerman is claiming self defense it should be up to HIM to PROVE he was attacked

So far none of the evidence has supported his claims.

Zimmerman claims Trayvon attacked him and beat his head against a concrete walk. Video of Zimmerman less than an hour later does not show injuries or messed up clothing that would be expected if there had been such a struggle.

Zimmerman claims he was the one screaming on the 911 recording. Two experts using two different methods have ruled Zimmerman out as being the one screaming.

I'm tired of hearing Zimmerman's friends and family members elaborations of the original story. They grow more and more convoluted as more facts come out and are getting far from believable.

[Ecumenist]

49. Really? You guys must be contortionists in the way that you're trying to justify zimmy's

MURDER of Trayvon. Why Sulla? Oh and BTW, Enjoy your visit.

[Sulla]

56. Why, you ask?

Tawana Brawley and the Duke rape case is why.

[Ecumenist]

58. That doesn't make NAY sense, but that's alright becuase you;re about to be served a pizza!

BYE

[Sulla]

61. Sure it does

Both those cases blew up in the faces of a lot of folks and made them look pretty fucking dumb. If thise case swings against Martin, Al Sharpton in particular will have pulled off quite a trifecta.

[Quixote1818]

63. And the Rosa Parks and Terry Schiavo cases blew up in the faces of wingnuts

Last edited Sun Apr 1, 2012, 08:38 PM - Edit history (3)

and other's like you? So what is your point? Also, this case is 100% different from Brawley and the Duke case because a 17 year old kid is DEAD because some ass hole was stalking him. He can't even begin to be like Brawley and the Prostitute in the Duke case because he is dead! Get it?

Here are some other things that blew up in the faces of Republicans:

[Ecumenist]

67. What kind of HUmanoid are you? What does the outright murder of an unarmed teenager have to do with

Tawana Brawley and Duke Rape Case? Are you trying to say that his murder was justified because of something that has nothing to do with it other than the color of their skin? What's wrong with you? Oh and BTW, this will not blow up in anyone face except Zimmerman the liar.

[librechik]

84. did you sign up here just to drop Nuggets of info like that?

go back to Faux where your lies will be applauded

[vaberella]

110. He didn't run.

And considering his girlfriends account is reliable she said he told her that he would not run. Zimmerman however did run to cut him off.

[K Gardner]

30. I really appreciate the way you laid this out here with the timeline..

Yes, we have to 'guess' at some things, but most of what we know are indisputable facts.

Now we try to get the numerous and differing stories from Zimmerman's side and fit them into this timeline.

Bottom line: They don't fit.

Thanks. K&R

[joe1991]

36. Zimmermans lies keep piling up

from his first call to police where he says Martin "looks like he's on drugs" "is holding something" "is coming right at me"; his lies or heavily exagerations about being beaten and having a broke nose, to telling the police it was him screaming for help, Zimmerman's story just doesn't add up.

Also, most of us know that a day or two after a fight bruises and swelling really show up and look horrible. If Zimmerman was beat up, his lawyers would have taken lots of photos, and would have likely released a couple to add sympathy for their client.

One more tidbit, after listening to all the released 911 calls, only one person sees a bit of the scuffle and says the person on top was wearing a "white t-shirt". We've heard Martin was wearing a dark grey hoodie, Zimmerman in the police tapes is wearing a very light gray t-shirt underneath the red and black jacket. Was he wearing it at the scene or did police get it from his truck? -those answers would be helpful.


all tapes and calls released by Sanford law enforcement:
http://sanfordfl.gov/investigation/trayvon_martin.html

[Ecumenist]

52. Welcome to DU Joe! Right glad Tameetcha!

Regarding zimmy's shirt, although it was light grey, in low light, it wold appear to be WHITE. Trayvon had a dark gray to Black hoodie. Further, 3 eyewitnesses directly stated that HE WAS ON TOP OF TRAYVON, not the other way around. Mary Cutcher and her roommate and third, as yet, anonymous eyewitness. So, Vattel, it would seem with the video, the 3 eyewitnesses, the voice analysis has the "hero" in a bad place and I expect it to only get darker for the murderer.

[JI7]

53. how about the lies from his dad about how Trayvon told Zimmerman he was going to die

and when Zimmerman shot Trayvon , Trayvon said "you got me".

how can anyone believe this shit after obviously made up bs.

[shimonitanegi]

64. Nobody but Martin and Zimmerman knows what really happened.

We know that Zimmerman's story is somehow fishy and stinky.

[spin]

69. We can also agree that there are a lot of questions about how the investigation ...

was conducted. Something or several things stinks in Sanford Florida.

[coeur_de_lion]

75. Great and informative thread

Thanks to all for posting the links.

[Catherina]

79. Great work! Great thread. Bookmarked n/t

[KansDem]

95. What happened to the Skittles and Iced Tea?

The reason why I ask is, whenever I'm carrying objects to a destination, I find myself preoccupied with getting there with those objects intact. That's why I find it hard to believe that Martin attacked Zimmerman. What did he do? Put his Skittles and iced tea down on the ground so he had his hands free to pummel Zimmerman? If things were moving too fast, did he throw them down? Did Martin try to fight Zimmerman why holding onto his recently-purchased items?

What happened to his merchandise?

[vaberella]

111. Huh...maybe that's how Zimmerman got the bloody nose.

The kid did use to do football. Maybe Trayvon threw the iced tea at Zimmerman's nose resulting in the bloody nose. As Zimmerman is bent over he throws the bag of skittles...leading to the scratches on the head. Or vice versa. Trayvon then would never have physically hit him but used what he had a weapon. Or maybe instead of the skittles Trayvon through his cellphone at Zimmerman's head. Then Zimmerman fired the gun.

[stevenleser]

101. Do you have links to the timeline?

I'd love to have that to talk about.

Thanks in advance either way.

[spin]

112. I hate to mention this but ...

The experts who have used voice analysis to determine what Zimmerman said differ in their results.

One day, one expert says he said, "F***ing Coon." The next day another expert says the term was, "F***ing cold." Another expert comes up with, "F***ing punks."

All I can say is that is why our legal system is far superior, as flawed as it is, to replacing it with a judge and jury composed of reporters and editors who have a vested interest in increasing readership or viewership for profit.

It would be wise to wait for the results of the investigation and hopefully the trial before making any decision on Zimmerman's guilt or innocence. We can insure that a fair and unbiased investigation is conducted by peaceful demonstrations. If I can believe what the media is reporting, it is my opinion that until this incident reached national attention the investigation by the local authorities was either incompetent or for some unknown reason was biased in Zimmerman's favor. Some reports say that the detective on the scene wanted to arrest Zimmerman but was overruled by the police chief and a state attorney. This of course has been denied by the involved parties.

The reason that the media chose to focus so much attention on this incident was because of their its hatred of "Stand Your Ground" laws which they view as a license to kill. They may have a point but in my opinion these laws merely removed the duty to retreat when a innocent person is confronted by an individual who has every intention and the ability to inflict serious injury or to kill.

Retreat maybe a good option in such a situation but there are times when it can also be a poor choice. Requiring a victim to first retreat can allow an significant advantage to his attacker. The "Stand Your Ground" laws really didn't alter the basic requirements for legitimate self defense. A reasonable man standing in your shoes should agree that the threat from a person who had the ability and the intention to inflict serious injury or to kill was immediate or immanent. You should not have initiated the encounter and escalated it to the point that violence would occur. Such laws do not require the attacker to be armed with a lethal weapon because a significant disparity in age, size or physical condition may enable the attacker an advantage that the victim would be unable to overcome.

It is quite possible that the wording of the "Stand Your Ground" laws has allowed some people to avoid prosecution. It could be argued that even before the advent of these laws and in a case where there were no witnesses that a person who should have been charged with murder or manslaughter could simply claim that he did his best to retreat. I remember that in the days before "Stand Your Ground" laws passed the common advice was to sure that you killed your attacker because "dead men tell no tales." I never agreed with this advice as have I no desire to kill another person but merely to stop his attack before he is able to put me in a hospital or six feet under.

I believe and hope that Zimmerman will be arrested and prosecuted for his actions. I base this on the fact that a dispatcher told him not to continue to pursue Martin. Had he followed that advice the incident would have entered without a tragedy. If he ignored the advice and left his vehicle in order to confront Martin, in my opinion he lost his right to claim self defense either under the old law or the newer "Stand Your Ground" law.