What would you consider a "living wage", in the current economy?

[NNN0LHI]

Now when you think about this consider it for someone living on one paycheck with a spouse and a couple of children to support off that one living wage. And remember kids eat non-stop. I watched my two grandsons eat $5 dollars worth of grapes before I could blink.

I would say at minimum it should be $25 dollars an hour with a medical insurance package included.

What do you think?

Don

[RKP5637]

1. That = $52k/yr and I agree that would be a minimum in today's world. n/t

[CAPHAVOC]

2. There should be a minimum income. Unrelated to work.

For all. Expand Social Security and eliminate all Government Social Programs. Any work could be additional income. Social Security would start at graduation from high school. Every adult should have Medicare and Social Security as a "starting point." They could then choose to live in squalor or improve their conditions by working. But at least it would stop the National Pity Party.

[sorrybushisfromtexas]

6. at a minimum and that would be tough

My son lives in a high rent area. He made $107,000 last year. He has no credit card debt but is smothered by student loan and medical debt. He does not even have cable t.v. He barely makes it. He works two jobs, has a wife that does not work, and two kids.

He is not healthy, has a couple of hospital visits a year, both kids have had surgeries, and my daughter in law has rheumatoid arthritis.
There is about $1000 a month payment on student loan debt, $1350 a month rent, $650 a month on car payment on 1 car( daughter in law wrecked a car they were upside down on so they paying for two cars even though they have one. They have over 25,000 in medical debt.

He lives paycheck to paycheck. If he misses a day of work they are in the hole. He missed Friday because of sickness and has had two ER visits this weekend. He will probably miss work at least 3 days next week. They are toast this month.

[CAPHAVOC]

7. Under my brilliant plan he would pay a 50% flat tax on his income. About 53,000.

Leaving 53,000 in addition to his and his wifes social security check. That might be a total of 78,000 expendable if social security was 1,000 for each. He would have no medical debt because they would all have Medicare. I would tax all income at 50% from dollar 1. We gotta do something this mess is not working.

[ThomThom]

60. Are you sure you are in the right forum?

Flat tax?

[pipoman]

22. Not hardly a measure of what minimum means in most

people's opinions..just say'n

[snooper2]

47. So he's taking home around $5800 a month---

and still having issues?

[Swede Atlanta]

12. Was this intended in jest?

As a society we need to recognize that a minimum wage means the wage that a wage-earner earns in exchange for their labor. Do we need to have a differentiation between "student" workers (beware of how that is defined) and "permanent" workers? Perhaps. But when we allow businesses to pay and compensate workers below what that worker needs to provide safe and adequate housing, safe and adequate water, safe and adequate food, safe and adequate medical care, etc. this is not what Jesus would do (for those Xtian lurkers).

I realize that an employer of a fast-food restaurant wants to pay workers the absolute minimum but we need to realize that we may need to pay a bit more for our burgers, pizzas, etc. in order to ensure all of us have a level starting point.

The rest of the world does it but oh, wait, we are exceptional. Yes we are exceptional in screwing our own people to benefit our corporate masters.

[CAPHAVOC]

14. Absolutely not a jest.

The two best social programs that have stood the test of time are Social Security and Medicare. Now think outside the box. Why limit it to only those over 65 and rising. Make it a starting point not an ending point. Do not tax corporations tax all the income they produce to individuals at 50%. They are not people. I would give every citizen rich and poor Social Security at graduation and for life and tax all income at 50%. No deductions subsidies scams or back room deals. How is that not totally fair. But I would eliminate ALL government social programs other than Social Security and Medicare. None would be needed. It would stop all the bickering, graft, and social engineering. Maybe we could all work together for prosperity.

[Recursion]

15. Why? What widgets are going unmade or services going unprovided right now?

The whole point of productivity gains is that we don't all *have* to work to have all the stuff we want to use and eat.

[Puzzledtraveller]

19. Okay Winston Smith, I'll share my Victory gin with you.

[CAPHAVOC]

21. And was not even trying.

But The Gin sounds good. I did not know I was that deep in it.

[elias7]

27. You want to turn social security into an entitlement program? Math doesn't work.

How do you determine how much SS someone would get, as there is a formula based on what income you make in your lifetime?

How about high school dropouts? When do we start paying them?

I dont get the math. For example, this year 3.2 million people will graduate from hs. Let's be fair and pay all dropouts when they hit 18 as well: another 1 million. So what's the living wage? $1000/mo? $12k/yr? That's $50 billion for one single age group per year. With a life expectancy of 80, that means 67 single age groups get paid, coming to $3.3 trillion/ yr, which pretty much is The entire 2012 budgetary spending (20% of which currently goes to ss), despite revenue of only $2.3 trillion.

Right now ss pays for itself, $820 Billion in $725 billion out. You want to expand SS 400%.

If you decide that a living wage is $50k/yr, your program will cost $14 trillion.

And taxing at 50% really would build resentment by those who work. The Fox meme of us paying for freeloading welfare recipients would actually be somewhat accurate.

[SATIRical]

28. Feel free to start writing those checks

"Any work could be additional income. "

Wow. This is so divorced from reality I don't know how to address it.

So who is providing all of this "free" stuff to everyone?

[CAPHAVOC]

29. It is he same free stuff we are providing now.

Just a direct cash payment without all the middlemen in the Government. It is fair because everyone gets it. Provided by a 50% tax on all income. From the first dollar. There would be no other taxes. No Tax Code. Real Change. Not lip service. Of course the K-Street Lobby Industry would cease to exist. Oh Darn. All the social engineers would have to find productive work to do. All the mismanaged social programs would be up in smoke. The National Pity Party would have to end.

[SATIRical]

30. And what free stuff is that?

My 18 year-old son doesn't get any free stuff from the gov't (besides the existence of the gov't, military, roads, etc).

So, how are those things being paid for in addition to that income to everyone?

There is mo math in the world that could make your system work.

[CAPHAVOC]

31. He would get a social security check if he is graduated. So would you. And Medicare.

The others would have to come from the 50% tax. 50% is the fair share. No matter how much you make. Simple math will make it work. Add up 50% of all income. That is how much you have to spend. Install Medicare for everyone and social security for all high school grads and add it up. Thats it. You just could not spend more than the 50%. This system would work great. Much better than the mess we have now. Half of all the money made in the USA is plenty.

[SATIRical]

32. Problem

That stuff is funded because money is taken from people who work. Most of those people at or even somewhat close to that "minimum income" would simply stop working. I know I would.

I know my son would quit his job immediately. So that money going into SS and Medicare would be gone. As would his federal income tax which contributes to that "other".

And let's not forget all of those people who currently choose not to work or cannot find a job. The money for them needs to come from somewhere.

Let's do the math.

Let's say there are $100M eligible people for your minimum income and that the income is $25K. That's $2.5T.

Assuming half of the people choose to work, they would have to average making $100K in "additional" income just to pay for their and every else's minimum income. And that is with ZERO dollars going to ANY gov't functions.

[CAPHAVOC]

36. No. It would not be that much. Just enough to live.

To have anything besides enough to eat a place to live and needed care for an illness or injury you would have to work. And pay 50% tax. But that would be up to you in this plan. There is only so much money in the hat. It will have to be doled out equally in a fair manner. But the 1% will pay 1/2 of all they make. So there might be more than you think. Hard choices will have to be made. This plan is brilliant. Everyone will have a good starting point. After that it is up to them. Nobody will starve or be without some kind of shelter or medical treatment if needed. And best of all we will not go bankrupted. Like we are now. It would not be a "safety hammock". But a survival dole. There would be at least 300 million people or whatever our population is. At 500 a month for each how much is that a month. 150 billion? A family of 2 would get 1k.

[SATIRical]

37. Oh dear

If you are doing it per person instead of per family, it gets worse.

And if you think $6K per year for a single person is a "living" wage then congratulations because we are already there. At 40 hours a week, minimum wage is already over $10/year even after withholdings/tax.

BTW, $500/month will not get you an apartment in most towns. I hope you don't mind not eating....


on edit: Oops! I just saw you wanted health care as well. You'll need to add that cost in as well.

[CAPHAVOC]

38. Only for the ones out of school for the dole out of school.

Everyone gets medicare. I just looked up the national debt clock. We are only getting 2.2 trillion in taxes. That would double at least with a 50% tax. Look it up. It has all the data in real time. You would need to work to get more than the dole. Or get charity.

[SATIRical]

42. So does the cost of Medicare

come out of that 50%

It doesn't now. So already, your 50% of the tax revenue is less than 50%.

And yes, we may be getting 50% in taxes, but we are spending a Trillion more that that. Now, throw in sales tax as well and your $500/month is no longer $500

[CAPHAVOC]

43. Yes.

The tax is 50% from 1st dollar. But it is the only tax. If someone makes a Billion they pay 500 million. If they make 100 they pay 50. But everyone gets the dole. Including the Billionaire. Things would change a lot from the way they are now. That is the idea. We can only spend what we get. 50% of the money. No more than that.

[SATIRical]

44. The number will not work out

If you believe they do, please show it using real numbers of workers, gov't costs, and average pay for those who work.

Good luck.

[CAPHAVOC]

49. The closest place i can find

To get data is at US Debt Clock .org But it is changing so fast by the time you write one down it is wrong.

[SATIRical]

50. To get data on what?

The number of workers? A minimum income?

[CAPHAVOC]

57. No , The total tax revenue we get right now.

It has a field that shows the tax we take in. It is already over 2 Tril.

[SATIRical]

59. That's great

But we spend $3T even without this minimum income.

You haven't even attempted to show the numbers will work out.

[CAPHAVOC]

63. If the numbers worked out what do you think?

[dmallind]

54. Now - consider real as opposed to nominal income

In your scenario if everybody gets an immediate $18k or so pay increase paid for from taxes (including that increase), and fast food workers are paid $25 an hour what do you think would happen to the cost of living?

Dollars are just numbers. What they can buy is important.

[CAPHAVOC]

55. They would get higher pay and everything else would stay as is?

I do not understand the question. In my plan they would get Social Security plus the pay they get now with a 50% tax rate on the pay. At least we are thinking about different ideas to solve this mess.

[ThomThom]

61. you got everything socialism and a flat tax

Who are you? reek havoc

[Luminous Animal]

56. Believe it or not, this is an idea firmly placed in reality. So much so that Richard Nixon

attempted to advance it in Congress.

MLK Jr. was a guaranteed income advocate as well as many other notable poor people advocates and economists. In the 60s and 70s, discussions on advocacy for a guaranteed income were on the national radar and robust.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:xZFnu0K1INAJ:www.law.northwestern.edu/journals/njlsp/v4/n1/4/4Kornbluh.pdf+guaranteed+income+galbraith&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESjVOBH0ZkWEyINc_HXEVHJqoXn2WxfuNDEfLtr2oc0BU8307IkyPtfxyoxDCh-Sv9bfTmpmNCTedhw16FxKwgFoCc3-_Whnz-wqmJ8gHw_WrTB9QGzpwpV2ZIR1_3gPxsSIp5TQ&sig=AHIEtbTTDscZgCbvoI5nM80JjzExjq_OFw

[SATIRical]

58. Yeah, but it died for several reasons

A) the article doesn't address how it would be paid for (except that proposed plans would save money from the existing welfare plans)

but more importantly
B) it was meant to deal with the US being an affluent society where productivity was so high that there was no work for humans to do and we needed to fill that time with leisure. That didn't happen.

Not only that, it was meant to LIMIT consumption. Obviously you are not going to sell many Americans on that...

Just because ideas are floated or attempted, it doesn't make them successful or even feasible. For example, "trickle-down-economics" was and idea that was tried. And the result?

[Luminous Animal]

39. I agree 100%. I have long been an advocate of a guaranteed income but I don't think

the default condition should be squalor.

[CAPHAVOC]

40. How about just survival. But not absolute squalor.

Don't forget this brilliant plan is just starting to take shape. The details have to be worked out. Any ideas?

[Luminous Animal]

45. I think your pretty much on the right track. I'd rethink the taxing scheme because

I think a progressive tax is a necessity. Did you know that Richard Nixon tried to advance a guaranteed income?

http://www.nytimes.com/books/98/10/04/specials/moynihan-income.html

[CAPHAVOC]

48. It would be good

To replace the Hodge Podge we have now.

[Snake Alchemist]

3. 75K for a family of 4 in most places. nt

[libtodeath]

4. Doing some quick calculations and 25-30/hour would be about right

Healthcare should not be a consideration but considered a national right.

[guitar man]

5. Depends on where you live

Here in Oklahoma I'd say $20-25 an hour minimum. Other parts of the country with higher cost of living should be higher.

[Kalidurga]

8. A family can actually scrap by on...

about 15 dollars an hour that is about 2x the minimum wage. Of course, that means getting an apartment under 900 a month. I say apartment because at that wage it's hard to get a loan for a house. Ironically a decent house would be cheaper. You would have to drive a fairly crappy car and the family would only be able to afford one. If there are two working adults, hopefully both can get a job around that pay scale, then they would be able to do a little better than scraping by. But, in this scenario they can have not one, but two crappy cars. Of course, buying brand new clothing on this budget would be a stretch, but you could get new occasionally. Don't worry about getting the best food either, that probably isn't going to happen. But, you can still eat pretty good food, beans and rice are very nutritious and you don't have to worry about pink slime. I hope you like Little Caezars as well because dining out at a decent restaurant is going to be a once in a blue moon occasion. Many people who hate poor people and who have never been poor complain about poor people having the internet and cable. But, at this wage it is almost a necessity. It is much cheaper to pay for cable and internet than to go out for entertainment. Humans definitely need entertainment without that things can get ugly real quick.

My personal experience is that living on fifteen dollars an hour is difficult, but it isn't an entirely grim proposition. I knew a lot of people at the time that had much less and it was pretty bad, sometimes it was hard to even come up with bus fare for them. A coworker I knew would bring food to another coworker, who made more money than she did, but he was paying out a lot of money in child support, he probably had about 6 bucks an hour after that was taken out. I would occasionally give money to people that I knew were in bad shape in a particular week, because I didn't like seeing people go hungry either. I don't know nor have I ever known a poor person that would waste money.

[CreekDog]

65. there are no apartments here for $900

won't even get you a studio here.

[obey]

9. In the current economy and at today's prices

beginning at age 18 everyone should be guaranteed an annual income equal to twice their age.

Those making more should be taxed enough to provide that level of economic security for the others.

A Federal agency needs to be established to recalculate the income needs and taxing rates on a yearly basis.

Level the playing field and the rising tide will lift all vessels.

[oldhippie]

18. Good God, man .....

beginning at age 18 everyone should be guaranteed an annual income equal to twice their age.

That's cruel. $36 a year is gonna be tough for an 18 year old to live on. A whole bunch of them are going to have to get together to even buy a tent.

I think I'd try something else.

[obey]

24. I guess I phrased that wrong

I was flashing back to the late 70's early 80's when the rule of thumb was "earning your age" meant 30 yrs old = 30K a year for example.

But that was yuppie talk too, so there ya go.

[joshcryer]

66. I make around that much and I'm 35. Minimum wage is about $16k.

I know you were being cheeky, but I'd happily take $70k!

[oldhippie]

67. Never mind. Both of you entirely missed the point ....

... of my cheeky little comment. I should be more careful about relying on reading comprehension when I make my little jokes.

Peace

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. Depends on the state

In San Diego it's been estimated in the neighborhood of 18.00.

[safeinOhio]

11. "living wage"?

Depends on what you call living.

[2ndAmForComputers]

13. Take the rent for a two-bedroom apartment

Plus gas for 1,000 miles for an average car
Plus monthly groceries for three
Plus 600 KWh electricity
Add $500
Divide by 160
That's your number

[NYC_SKP]

16. Add $1500 to that for health care insurance, or a bit more. n/t

[hughee99]

33. Tax free?

I had to figure in local, state and federal taxes as well, and that made my number jump by about 25%. I came up with about 80K a year, based on Massachusetts numbers, which works out to about $38-39 an hour.

[Nikia]

17. Around $15 per hour if nothing bad happens

If you have childcare costs, you probably need a little more.
I have known some families that have done it on around $10. These families usually owe money to friends and family and have accumulating medical bills whether or not they have insurance or not because almost every penny goes to bills or food. I would like to add that you can get apartments at around $400-$500 in town.

[Egalitarian Thug]

20. there are pretty wide regional differences, but I think you're in the ballpark.

$20 - $25 is adequate for most of the country. Obviously some places require more, but since we have to deal with the nation as if it were a homogeneous entity, that is a good place to start.

[got root]

23. For a single person, at least $25 an hour, 40hrs a week, + healthcare & vacation

[Initech]

25. I think it depends on where you live, in LA it should be $25 - $35 an hour w/benefits.

Rent here is completely ridiculous and you *HAVE* to own a car in order to get anywhere, we don't have viable mass transportation options here - the cost of owning a car - payments, maintenance, etc, is ridiculous.

[Odin2005]

26. Here in Fargo I'd say $15/hr

[Cleita]

34. You are right and it's do-able if we cut out two-thirds of military spending.

We as a country could put everyone out of work to work doing something that needs doing like rebuilding infrastructure, converting our energy from dirty to clean like solar, wind and hydro. There is so much that needs doing. This is turn would stimulate other businesses that would provide services and goods to people who now have money to buy things creating more jobs.

Oh, also we need to nationalize our national resources so that our oil, minerals, ores and lumber revenues can be used to pay for a lot of this. Also, our millionaires and billionaires need to start paying higher taxes. Finally, we need to dump NAFTA and CAFTA and start charging high tariffs on our imports.

I might as well try to spit in the wind though cause only revolution will bring this about.

[trollhouse cookies]

35. At least $15 an hour.

[BanTheGOP]

41. I wrote on this OVER THREE YEARS AGO...isn't anyone listening??

Rhetorical question. Our legislators in Congress are as feckless as masturbating Bushwackers.

From my blog archive: DEPRESSION: ONE HUNDRED PERCENT CAUSED BY rEPUBLICANS

THE ANSWER:

1. Nationalize all industries over 50 employees. Eliminate stockholder boards, install boards that have greater emphasis on needs of people, not the greed of the unproductive.

2. Create a maximum tax, immediately, of all individuals, taxing them 100% when they make 10 million dollars. Create a tax rate of 70%, immediately, for all those who make more than 1 million dollars. Create a tax rate of 50%, effecitve immediately, for all those who make $150,000 or more annually. Up the state tax rates by a similar percentage.

3. Immediately mandate rules for officials. NO private planes, NO perks not available at reasonable cost to their lowliest employee.

4. Immediate minimum wage hike to at least $10 hour, indexed higher for more expensive areas (NY, for instance, would be $15 or so). This will stimulate the local economies, which are key.

5. Eliminate all lobbyists. Period. ONLY citizens can petition their representatives, and then each citizen should NEVER have more access than ANY OTHER CITIZEN.

This is just for starters. This can be done with NO problem if we have a 60-seat democratic majority in the senate.

FINALLY... start the process to decertify financing, and ultimately make illegal, the existence of the republican party through RICO statues.

MAKE IT SO!

Now, I wrote this in 2008 shortly after Barack Obama won the election. So full of promise back then, but we weren't prepared against the republican nuclear attack (though I was).

The more things change the more they stay the same. To that end, BAN THE FREAKIN' rEPUBLICAN PARTY ALREADY!!!

[Stan Smith]

46. I love that plan.

I have one problem though, when you say, Eliminate all lobbyists. Period. ONLY citizens can petition their representatives, and then each citizen should NEVER have more access than ANY OTHER CITIZEN, that could be dangerous. We could end up silencing groups that have done so much good for us all. Like unions, environmental groups, gay rights groups, and so on. We need the power of those groups to petition for all of us.

[lunatica]

51. The ability to pay for rent, utilities, clothes, food and medicine and still

have money left for a movie and dinner once a month.

[Enrique]

52. that's about the median household income

and it's about twice the median individual income. I'm not sure what the definition of living wage is, but by that figure, half the households in the U.S. aren't making it.

[closeupready]

53. I don't know, but $10 is approx. what min. wage would be

if it had kept up with inflation. So since minimum wage is almost by definition NOT living wage, you'd probably have to double that, and index it for local cost of living, so that for example, in San Francisco it would be $25 or $30/hour.

[ThomThom]

62. $20 to $25

and change the tax code 90% over a certain level. 75% and 50% brackets 0% at the bottom

[sendero]

64. Depends entirely..

... on where in the USA you live.

[Egalitariat]

68. It's a very interesting question. If everybody who currently makes minimum wage started making $52K

per year, what would that do to the cost of goods and services? Would they rise to the point that the new living wage was not a living wage anymore?