On "narcing out" negligent parents

[Michigander_Life]

I cannot believe the controversy associated with this. How many children are neglected every day? Abandoned by parents? Is this "narcing out" so awful because the subject of his report was a single mother?

Well, I'm going to tell on myself too. I have called the police more than once when I've seen a parent leave their young child or children in a parked car, unattended, outside of a business. I understand that sometimes life gets hard, but I would rather meddle and be able to sleep at night, than turn a blind eye and have to deal with a dead kid who I could have saved.

I applaud our DUers who choose to get involved, no matter how unpopular that choice may be.

[boston bean]

1. From nipple alerter to DCFS alerter. Quite a feat in your week long visit here on DU.

[Michigander_Life]

7. What can I say?

Mama always taught me to speak my mind. Lord knows she did.

[Zorra]

97. ML saved many from the abominable sin of viewing an image of a baby suckling at a moms naked breast!

[WhiteTara]

99. and we're all much better for it.

NOT

[Mrdrboi]

168. ML also probably saved people from getting fired at work.

[morningfog]

259. No they didn't.

If anyone would get fired for opening a thread that had a picture of a nipple in it, they would get fired for browsing DU.

[dsc]

285. and you know that because

well you actually don't know that you are making shit up. The simple fact is many HR departments have no problem with occasional, downtime use of computers for personal business but big problems with employees who other employees are claiming are causing a hostile work environment.

[Michigander_Life]

294. Why do you object to NSFW tags? It's a courtesy, nothing more.

Is being courteous to fellow posters so difficult?

[joeglow3]

411. Not at my company

We have a filter that blocks websites we are not allowed to visit (we are allowed to surf during breaks, lunch and down time). The picture in question (in a thread claiming to be about guns) is most definitely against the rules at my company (a Fortune 500 company). Thanks for playing, though.

[morningfog]

119. Zombie attack!

[Electric Monk]

123. I wonder if the number 58 has any special significance to them? I'm guessing it does. nt

[neverforget]

208. I've been wondering that too

[Change has come]

225. Yup

[TexasTowelie]

258. Okay, I'll admit it--I'm ignorant. Please explain or provide a link.

Thanks.

[morningfog]

261. Former poster:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=292212

[LAGC]

378. Couldn't have seen that coming...

That one disrupted poorly.

[BainsBane]

128. LOL

I had sympathy for the nipple alert, this not so much.

Leaving a child in a parked car is different from the situation described in the other case. Anyone who reads that thread with any care can see there is something strange going on.

[ecstatic]

244. lmao! nt

[KittyWampus]

2. there are usually options open before narcing. Unless you are a mandated reported like a teacher.

[seabeyond]

4. it really is complicated. having been in the position myself, many of us have. it is not simple.

i read the thread. i would never have left boys at that age. i was also in a position, i never had to make that choice

[boston bean]

12. That story as presented in the other thread was not about

concern for the child. It was all about the poster and her personal feelings, really not about the children (there were two of them) at all.

Speaking to that is not a denial that children do need help sometimes. These are not equivalent things we are discussing here.

That is obvious to anyone who read the other thread, and took great offense to it.

These false equivalencies and new threads about this are ignoring what the real crux of the issue was in the first story.

[moriah]

76. I don't care if the woman thought the mom was a saint or a serial killer....

... if she saw neglect, she in my opinion had a moral duty to report it to the authorities. I'd have had a legal duty as well.

And by "neglect", I mean leaving a five and 10-year-old alone overnight, not cooking microwave cuisine or watching PBS.

[boston bean]

80. Umm, she called the cops, the kids were not alone. She was WRONG.

I take everything this woman says to be suspect and she is having personal motives in getting this woman off her property because she has not paid last months rent.

[moriah]

90. When she's repeatedly said she's refused to evict them?

Holy hell, BB... I love you a lot, you know that I hope, but it's a lot easier to evict someone for failure to pay rent than it is to try to hope that the system will take them away, when Chicago DCFS takes only 5% of kids reported to them (per their mandated reporter manual).

But Illinois is actually better than a lot of states, in that this is also in their mandated reporter manual:

The Department of Children and Family Services has a statutory mandate to make a special effort to stabilize and preserve families that are involved in child abuse or neglect allegations. The Department uses its own child welfare staff and private agencies to provide a variety of services to help the family survive and to change patterns of abusive or neglectful behavior. These efforts are based on experience that shows that some children, even in abusive or neglectful situations, may do better when kept with their families than when they are placed in foster care. The services provided include such things as:

service referrals and linkages
housing assistance
substance abuse assessment and treatment
homemaking assistance and training
parenting education and support
limited financial assistance
mental health and family counseling
day care or respite care

Which is exactly what this family needs.

Hopefully they'll get it, now.

[boston bean]

92. Really, you sure about that. She's never wanted them out?

ok, you believe what you want. I'll believe what I want.

ETA, if you don't want someone living at your place, calling authorities on them is a great way to get them to LEAVE of their own will, wouldn't you say?

[moriah]

96. Why bother trying to force someone out when you have perfect legal grounds for eviction?

Unless you're accusing a long-term DUer of just being a twisted psychopath who enjoys meddling in the affairs of others for her own convenience and amusement.

[boston bean]

122. No, it's much more simpler than that.

She wanted her out. What better way than to call authorities and make life a living hell?

[moriah]

126. Uh, legal eviction for failure to pay rent. Easy. Cheap.

Could have been started on the 5th of this month and there'd be a court-ordered move-out date in place already.

[boston bean]

130. Yeah, I'm sure that would have been easier than just a phone call.

Making it untenable for her to stay. Yep...

[moriah]

139. It's a hell of a lot more likely to be effective, and a lot more legal.

So now you are accusing another long-term DUer of maliciously reporting false allegations of neglect, just because they don't wanna go to the courthouse and file a few papers? Talk about

[boston bean]

140. I'm saying it happens.

[moriah]

158. And you're so quick to assume it's happening here.

The first priority in all of this should be the kids -- yes, both of them, because a 10-year-old should not be forced into being responsible for a younger sibling to such a degree at that age. They're still kids themselves and should be allowed to be children instead of forced to be adults so damn fast.

Child welfare agencies are not the huge boogeyman people seem to think they are. For cases of child neglect, Illinois has a "Differential Response" program that provides emergency cash assistance when needed, day care, gets people moved up on the housing list, whatever needs to happen so that the social safety nets out there are working properly for the children. Better than my state, though we try too. That's what social workers are for -- they aren't baby-snatching psychos who are out to destroy good families to make money off of adoptions like the wingnutters think.

If, God forbid, there *had* been a fire when those children were home alone, I'm willing to bet 99% of the people jumping all over this woman for reporting her suspicions would be attacking her if she admitted she had known the kids were home alone and hadn't called the cops. Because if someone knows abuse or neglect is occurring, they have an obligation to those kids to report it to the proper authorities so something can be done.

[boston bean]

173. I just read through this thread and please go see post # 115.

[moriah]

182. And your point?

She was happy to see her STBX go, and thought it was awful that he was trying to evict these people because they might not have anywhere to go (though the way it was phrased was cringeworthy).

Sounds like a landlord who's going to file a false child neglect report charges to make them leave, though, doesn't it? I mean, if she wanted them out, they could have been gone in May if she'd gone along with the STBX.

[mopinko]

281. ftr, if i wanted her out, i screwed my own pooch.

i doubt i would be able to evict her until social services is through. that is likely 90 days.
i trust that they have some experience with this sort of thing, and that i will be contacted for some sort of conciliation, which i hope is successful. cleaning up after the stbex, i am getting pretty good at that.

and really, i love this woman. honestly. i tried hard. but in the end, these kids need an adult to stand up for them.
they think the heat and hot water are off because i didnt fix them. i sorta suspect she wants to keep it that way, and knows they will ask me. that is why she wouldnt let me watch the boy.

the accusations that there is anything creepy happening here are flat out libel. and they are being read by others, as has been pointed out to me.
i know who my local caver is. you can bet this is going through a very ugly grapevine right now. fortunately, i know that i will be the target, not them.
they dont scare me.

[2pooped2pop]

287. social services won't be off her ass for at least 6 months

and I hope you don't get your rent during the entire process.

[moriah]

318. If you think social services SHOULDN'T be "on her ass"....

.... then you either have a very misguided, vaguely wingnutterish view of what social services does (no, they are not the psycho baby-snatchers who make money off of destroying good families and stealing the kids to be adopted that the wingnutters make them out to be, they HELP people, and this family needs that help desperately), or you fail to realize the seriousness of the situation.

"Home Alone" the movie was funny. For a five-year-old kid though, being left home alone for half an hour could be a terrifying experience. A bored five-year-old while his mother sleeps all day is a recipe for disaster by itself. Leaving two children those ages home alone overnight, even once? Flat out wrong. I don't care if the child is theoretically "capable" of such a task, and that's questionable at that age. They should not be forced into that much responsibility for younger siblings so young. Kids forced to grow up too fast often turn out okay (or better than okay), they're resilient little people. But just as often they don't -- if they had to be an adult as a child, why would they think they need any supervision as a teenager?

I hope this family has the assistance of a social worker and the Differential Response team for far longer than six months, so that they are able to get the help they need to get the situation back where she can manage it by herself. They can pull the strings to get her into housing faster, so she'll be paying a rent she can afford without a graveyard premium. They'll be able to get the kids into free summer camps (since the five-year-old, hopefully, will be going to school in the fall -- and yes, there are several, including many done by the Y, in Chicago) so she has childcare year-round and can be home with her kids at night. And that's just the tip of the iceberg of things they can help with. You can bet money her gas will be on very soon.

All of those things are far cheaper for a strapped system than taking two children into foster care. And your vitriol against this poster is shameful.

[2pooped2pop]

320. funny how some people just don't like the fucking police and

social services up in their asses. Who knew?

[moriah]

326. When you have kids, you do what has to be done.

If that means taking help from social services and being grateful that the help is there, no matter how much you might hate why you were offered it, you take that help and you ARE grateful.

Otherwise you're letting pride and bullshit get in the way of what's best for your kids.

[2pooped2pop]

328. I know plenty of people begging for help and getting rejected

This woman needs a new roommate and a new landlord. Gas is not the issue in summer.

[moriah]

341. In this case, apparently, she was having helped shoved in her face and rejecting it.

New roommate and new landlord, right. And not because they both agreed the situation needed to be reported to social services, I'm sure.

And good luck attracting a roommate who is not only okay with taking care of her kids for her, but also fine about not being able to get a hot shower.

[2pooped2pop]

363. isn't the roomate also liable for that hot water? n/t

[mopinko]

365. part of the gas thing

was about driving the roommate out.

things are complicated. they really are.
if we just knew where she was on the list, we could get our end of the process started. we can't apply without a tenant who has moving papers.

and yeah, no hot water. the 10 yo does the dishes in cold water. a hot shower once a week at aunties, and bowl of water in the microwave the rest of the week. which, btw, is likely the 10yo's job in the morning. what could go wrong.
and no home cooking. since march.

[CreekDog]

293. You love that woman?

Gee good thing you don't hate her.

[mopinko]

361. it would have taken a phone call to get her out.

i actually have a tight community here in reality. i have a friend i could call who would have her out before she knew what was happening.
now, i doubt i would be able to evict her if i tried. so, yeah, getting her out? not so much.
besides which, she would have a hard time finding a better place.

[former9thward]

153. Maybe where you live but not in Chicago.

And it is not easy or cheap. Much easier and cheaper to call the cops.

[moriah]

160. $60 bucks, it may take a full three months to get the person out....

... but it's a lot more sure and a lot less illegal, as I said.

[mopinko]

256. if you have a good lawyer, on a month to month,

it is fast. and i have a good friend who specializes in this law, and would have them gone in 30 days.

so that there is another FACT that people are not grokking. this is not to get her out. it is to get here to take proper care of those boys.
and i am fond of this family, as i said. i am a sick old lady in the middle of my own divorce trying to what is best for these kids anyway.

jeebus you guys.

[mopinko]

257. thank you.

reading comprehension around here is sure not what i thought it was.

[JVS]

202. Not just failure to pay rent, but also failure to maintain utilities.

With the exception of one apartment where basic utilities were include, all leases I've signed made it clear that if I allowed water, gas, or electric lapse that I'd be in violation of the lease.

[mopinko]

260. thank you.

and failure to call the city, and pick up a check to get the gas paid. she has a link card, she qualifies. all she has to do it call. its only a 3 digit number, ferchrissakes.
and she lied about trying to contact them. she claimed she called 3 times and got no answer. i'm here to tell you chicago has one of the best municipal services phone centers in the country, and that just doesnt happen.

[mopinko]

211. thank ja i am not the only sane person left here.

like i kept saying, i KNEW no one was going to take those kids.
just straighten her up, help her out. she may even get some better summer camp options out of the deal.

and just btw, got a good friend who is a top flight eviction and foreclosure lawyer. one phone call, no fee. the idea that this is a plot to get them out is just NUTS.
and btw, sticking up for these kids cost me some pain i had no use for. and it will cost me more, as i'm pretty sure i wont be seeing any rent any time soon.

[2pooped2pop]

286. didn't someone also mention that in another thread

same narc said she wanted the apartment for someone else in her family? It was down towards the bottom of that narc thread.

Makes it seem fishy.

[mopinko]

352. my soon to be ex-husband tried to kick her out.

my daughter wanted him to move in there, and is still a little pissed at me that i put my foot down and didn't let him do it.
k? i STOPPED her eviction.

[mopinko]

102. kiddo, you are just making up shit out of whole cloth.

in fact my husband wanted to evict her months ago, the alderman thinks i should evict her, but i wont.

[MineralMan]

111. For whomever alerted on your post:

Disagreement is not a personal attack. It is just disagreement. Please don't alert on posts just because you don't like what they say. That's not the DU way. The alert failed 7-0. Please learn from that.

[mopinko]

358. except that the issues were the figment of people's imaginations.

whatever the interweb swarms might think, that thread was in lala land.

[noamnety]

166. Do you think there should be mandated reporters?

The thread leaves me thinking most people are opposed to teachers having to report suspected abuse or negligence.

[auntsue]

204. Mandated reporters -- teachers, dentists, doctors, even hair stylists (in CA) are only "required"

to report when they see abuse or neglect as a part of their official duties. Many take it more seriously and
report any incident they see. I reported a few thing while off duty. Retired now.. would still do it on certain circumstances

[seabeyond]

3. i am dealing with young adult niece, who expresses she wished her extended family " "narced out"

her parents, at times.

[Michigander_Life]

6. I think there's a strong desire not to meddle or get involved

And the stigma places upon those who don't "mind their own business" is strong. But damnit, if a child's own parent isn't going to take care of them and protect them, who will?

"Narcing" could save a life.

[seabeyond]

10. ""Narcing" could save a life." yes. or abuse. that last a lifetime. nt

[Michigander_Life]

14. Agreed. All kinds of abuse.

Neglect, physical abuse, sexual abuse, etc. I wish more people would say something when they see something that isn't right.

[boston bean]

19. Narcing for reasons of personal vengeance or personal disagreements

can RUIN a life that lasts a lifetime as well.

You have to read the thread to understand what this woman has done.

[seabeyond]

21. i get that. i started a thread that went circular. and i deleted. i get all the angles.

that is why i didnt participate in that thread and stopped reading.

[boston bean]

23. Well, this one here is not an accurate description of what persons

who were so appalled by her actions were stating in the prior thread which spawned this one.

We need to follow along here and not get bamboozled and give that woman one iota of support for what she did. It was DISGUSTING!

[seabeyond]

26. i am not as definite as you are. hence me making my statement in this thread. as opposed

to being a part of the other.

i am not talking about the other poster. or Op. i am addressing an issue that is close to my heart, with the understanding how hard this is.

my post is only about what i posted.

i cannot be decisive about the other OP. sorry.

[boston bean]

34. If you don't think that the woman being behind in her rent

and this landlords decision to call the cops on her, for something the cops didn't do a damned thing about and didn't find anything wrong, I don't know what else to say. Except for the fact that you may be willing to give her a pass because you think no damage was done.

Well, it was. Those kids were probably scared to death they were never going to see their mother again, and now this woman who is struggling will have to look for another place to live.

[seabeyond]

44. i am saying, i am not stepping into this argument. period.

i am not doing it.

[boston bean]

47. Well, the premise to this thread is others reaction in the original OP.

So, you are stepping into it and in a way are helping to conflate this.

[seabeyond]

51. no. i am adressing something i wanted to in the other thread. that i was unable to address cause

the conversation went personal. i had no desire to participate in that conversation. i do have, or had, the desire to participate though, in a conversation about how this issue is so big, and hard... it is hard. that is what you will read me addressing in all the posts, in this thread.

this conversation interests me because this is what i am experiencing with my niece and her two younger brothers.

[mopinko]

212. your statement is incorrect. the cops agreed completely and did take action

when they returned. they called her at work, and told her to get home.
i have no idea what happened next, as i left. but they intended to explain a few things to her, and i am sure they did.
at no time did a cop do anything scary, or were they given any reason to think they were taking their mom away.

and again, the nature of the situation required that it be witnessed. i have no idea how quickly cps would have moved on a hot line report, but i know they would have gotten a pile of bs, and it would have been finger pointing, and weeks. and still no evidence.

i called the cops so there would be evidence of exactly what was happening.
and again, there is no heat and no phone.
and ftr, it is on the tenant to pay the heat in this unit. actually set up that way by the previous owner for sec 8, where there were higher subsidies for split off utilities.
the sec8 lease requires that tenants stay current, and keep the utilities on. i got rapped on the knuckles for not having that in my lease.

[uppityperson]

213. Do you realize you have given out enough information for someone to be able to find those 2 kids?

Last edited Sun Jun 15, 2014, 01:11 PM - Edit history (1)

now that they know (you say0 the kids are alone at night? Or are you hoping the cavers won't notice the massive threads here?

I see you got locked out of your other thread by a hidden post, and now are continuing the argument here, continuing posting information so those nasties who stalk du know where these kids are? Oh, how I can tell is by your sig line, leading to your facebook page which includes your address.

HOW is giving out this information and address helping those kids?

[mopinko]

263. cavers, well

they stalk my fb, they love me.
by would you suggest that i just keep things to myself because of that? not share with the most important community i have?
fuck that noise

and so, yeah, shit could happen to those kids then. you are admitting it right here.
see?

[LeftyMom]

218. Why are you setting this family up in order to force them out of their unit?

You gave it away in a previous post: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1151&pid=5001

Making a family so uncomfortable that they have to move is illegal as all hell. You're going to lose your shirt when she takes you to court.

I hope she finds your posts about her. You've left quite a trail of evidence.

[uppityperson]

219. Is that the family being talked about? and huh to that linked post

well, looks like he might move out.

we have a 2 flat that is on the other side of the farm- so 2 doors away.
he says he is planning to tell the 1st floor tenants that we will not renew their lease in may.
as relieved as i will be to get him out, this breaks my heart. (which, of course, he knows) we have a wonderful woman from nigeria and her 2 boys. she is so happy to be there, and treats me like family. now she will have to go out and try to find another decent place that will take 2 black boys. oy.

[LeftyMom]

221. Yeah, that's them. nt

[mopinko]

272. again, not me. stbex.

i stopped that, and my daughter is just now talking to me again.

[moriah]

228. Reading comprehension. Use it.

Look at the thread. She's thrilled to be getting rid of her STBX in the divorce, she's pissed he was trying to get her not to renew the lease with this woman and her boys.

Please explain why you feel somehow this is evidence she's trying to force them out?

[JI7]

230. she says herself that the husband is not going to renew the lease and the mother and boys

will have to find another place (including one that will take 2 black boys).

[moriah]

231. Yes, that the lease was going to end in May.

Obviously, since it's June, she renewed the lease, with or without the STBX.

[JI7]

232. most likely the mother had a right to renew her lease and did it, so now she is trying to make her

leave by doing things like calling the cops.

[moriah]

233. If you guys really believe she's doing that, report HER.

But it's sickening to see these accusations being flung at a DUer who has been here longer than I have.

[JI7]

234. it's not accusations, it's what she herself is posting on the forum

[moriah]

235. Really, you, Lefty, and BostonBean are all claiming this woman is breaking fair housing laws.

A very serious accusation to fling with no evidence besides reporting a negligent mom and daring to post about her divorce on DU.

Go report her.

Now.

(Edit: fixed title.)

[JI7]

236. that post is from just 3 months ago in which calls the mother just wonderful

and how sorry she is that she will have to leave and find another place

[moriah]

237. Yes! That'll look *perfect* to the investigating authorities!

Prima facie evidence that she maliciously reported her for child neglect because she wanted her out!

Make sure you screenshot that.

[JI7]

238. as much evidence as her post on forum about mother being negligent because she wont let the boy

hang out with "grandma"

[moriah]

243. I wasn't impressed by the microwave cuisine or PBS comments, either.

A sleeping woman, however, is not adequate supervision for an awake and active five-year-old, and might face criminal charges if something happened to kids under her care while she slept. And yes, I know this for a fact. Two of my best friends from high school lost children to drowning, both kids were in the care of grandparents. One grandmother was convicted of manslaughter -- she was alleged to have fallen asleep while taking care of her nearly-five year old grandson (she had many health issues and if she did fall asleep, it wasn't intentional). Yep, 60+ year old woman wearing an ankle bracelet...

The reason why the system comes down so hard in these tragedies is so that hopefully others will learn from it before another tragedy strikes. Part of me questions whether or not I would report simply for a sleeping shift-worker caregiver if there was at least an adult present in the home at all times with the kids, even though I know what happened to my friend's little boy. But that was not the most serious allegation (honestly I find the accusation of leaving the five-year-old home alone even for 30 minutes while taking the oldest to school more disturbing -- a five year old should not be left alone at all).

Despite it not being the most serious allegation, if anyone is not troubled imagining what a creative five-year-old can do when a caregiver is alseep... they've never been around kids.

[mopinko]

254. and somehow it is just not coming through that these kids are alone ALL NIGHT.

usually 5 nights a week. a sweet 10 yo, trying to figure out what to do in an emergency.
sure, he can get his brother to get dressed, but that doesnt mean he can get him out in a fire.

[2pooped2pop]

290. I don't understand how you know so much

about who is there and who is not. You reported them to the police at what you called the "wrong time" coz shoot darn someone was there. So if you were wrong then, how many other times are you wrong.

It seems quite busy body.

[mopinko]

268. its just a lot of little things.

i'm not so concerned about microwave food as i am a 10yo who is doing the dishes in cold water, and 3 people who have to go to the relatives house to shower.

and nothing wrong with pbs, but that is all the kid has to watch. no movies, no books. in spite of offers to lend same.

[2pooped2pop]

305. newsflash! Microwaves heat cold water now n/t

[mopinko]

255. this is the most hilarious part of this.

half the people are damning me for NOT offering to help with the kid, the other half think i'm some sort of flaming pedo.
what a place.

[mopinko]

282. wrong, wrong and wrong. on the facts, just 180º wrong.

sorry to harsh your buzz.

[mopinko]

253. such amazing imaginations.

she was not given a new lease. if she can get current with her rent, and get her utilities back on, she might get 6 mos. meantime she is month to month, and as i said, out with a phone call.

[2pooped2pop]

299. I think this mother simply needs a new roommate

one who works second shift and will be home all nights.

Or this mother needs a daytime job.

and this mother, def needs a new landlord. I would never live in a place where the landlord lived that close. They tend to think because they own the property, they also own you.

[moriah]

314. Either way, my point was that if you wanted her out, she could have been out in May.

Hope you feel special in all of this, mopinko, given that people searched through 40k of your posts to find that ONE post to trash you with....

[mopinko]

375. oh, i adore my fans.

it's all about me, ya know.

[mopinko]

251. this is such a red herring

if i wanted them out, they would be out. that wasnt me trying to put them out, it was my stbex. i stopped that, inspite of pissing off my daughter.

she is month to month, and if i wanted her out i have a friend who is a top flight eviction and foreclosure atty. she owes me a favor. i wouldnt even have to get out of my chair, let alone spend half the night on the front porch with the cops.

[boston bean]

301. So, she has no problem with anything you did and she is grateful and she plans

on maintaining a residence at your rented flat?

[mopinko]

351. where the hell did you read that?

oh, yeah, you didnt.
landlord mediation is part of the package here, and i hope that we are able to mend our relationship. at least somewhat, as she will have a hard time finding anything else.

[boston bean]

372. What are you in landlord mediation for with this woman?

Were you attempting to evict, and are going through the process?

[mopinko]

379. as has been pointed out, i cant evict her now. and i stopped my ex from doing so.

if she chooses to move, i will help her find another place. she will be allowed to stay as long as she needs to on month to month.
i hope that we can patch things up. if she takes the help that she will be getting, and she gets it together, i would be happy to resign her. my own situation makes that complicated, but as soon as things settle if i still own the building, she would be welcome.

really, you people are so off base it is outright comical.

[2pooped2pop]

289. why did you delete your own OP, then come join this same one?

too many facts in your OP?

[pintobean]

291. Because she could no longer reply

in that thread? I sure don't blame her for deleting it. At least she can defend herself in this thread.

[2pooped2pop]

308. oh that's right. She got locked out when she said Fuck you to me

for asking if they were black after someone else mentioned it.

[moriah]

312. If you think it truly matters in the slightest, then it was deserved.

Though I might have lost my temper at being called a pedophile slumlord who was trying to drive the couple out illegally first, before veiled accusations of racism. (Not saying those other accusations came from you. I think your comment was just the straw that broke the camel's back -- but if you thought it mattered to a fellow DUer who's been here forever....)

People are forgetting that mopinko IS a long-term DUer, who is very transparent about who she is IRL. If people really think she's a slumlord, if people really think she's maliciously reported this family just to get them out of her rental unit, if anyone thinks she's discriminating providing housing because of race -- please, I beg you, report her!

[2pooped2pop]

317. someone said they were black

OP blew a fuse, so I said were they? Yep way out of line there.

[uppityperson]

323. I am confused. I thought they were talking about mopinko, but you say it was you being called that?

"Though I might have lost my temper at being called a pedophile slumlord who was trying to drive the couple out illegally first, before veiled accusations of racism. "

Did this happen to you in the past, or are you talking about this incident?

[moriah]

324. I was postulating how I would have reacted, had I been mopinko.

Sorry if I wasn't clear.

[uppityperson]

327. thank you, makes sense. This thing has shown me a few things

1. Communication on the internets is often partial and unclear and time taken to clarify things can help a lot.

2. It is difficult to be a parent, especially lower income. There need to be more resources available that people are able to use without being stigmatized, or feeling stigmatized, or having to worry it will make their situation worse.

3. People live in all sorts of situations. There is no one "right" way to live, to habit where you live. For instance, it is not uncommon to not have hot water available, or even an indoor toilet, or even a tv.

That said, I am done with discussing any specific instances as it is not helpful in any way.

[pintobean]

313. So, you knew. Your question was disingenuous.

I find your obsession here to be very strange, but interesting.

[2pooped2pop]

319. well good for you. At least you are finding something.

I asked because she failed to answer the first person who asked. Just like she failed for so long to tell that the other child was 10.

[mopinko]

348. too much flat out libel.

people throwing around accusations like racist and pedophile, to which i couldnt respond? what would you do?

it isnt full of facts. it full of fanciful speculation based on zero evidence.

[2pooped2pop]

360. I didn't realize when I asked that you could not answer in that post

any longer. I forgot that that's how it works.

[maryellen99]

88. In my condo complex a neighbor had the police called on her

Because she left her kids alone overnight.They were under 5 and one of them went out on the balcony (this was a 2 story condo building) crying for his mommy.

[BainsBane]

242. Two children under five

Is different from a ten year old there to look after the little one.

[treestar]

38. Very true how often do we fault the people who looked

the other way in the Sandusky case and similar cases?

[ZombieHorde]

181. In my mind,

there is an ocean of difference between seeing sexual assault on a child and seeing a mother working while her kids sleep.

[treestar]

194. Of degree, not kind

Where do you draw the line then? I would think the law, which is roughly the agreement of society. Kids that young should not be alone in a house for any period of time. I don't get being OK with that.

[mopinko]

269. me either.

especially as i know these particular kids. that 10yo would be destroy if anything happened to his brother.

[ZombieHorde]

406. The law means very little to me.

I try not to let other people's rules stop me from doing anything, but I will try to not get caught if I feel someone will try to harm me for my behavior, whether that someone is a police officer or another type of violent gang member means little to me.

Some kids, such as kids with certain disabilities, shouldn't be alone at night, and it's not ideal for any kid or even many adults, but the alternative can be so much worse. Foster care can be very damaging for a child. Being watched for "naughty behavior" can feel very creepy and stressful.

[2pooped2pop]

303. be careful what you wish for

would she really have preferred if she were removed from the home.

[seabeyond]

304. seriously. you know nothing about what she experienced and endured. nor the trauma of

having to answer the question.

maybe you ought to be careful about trivializing such an hard issue.

[2pooped2pop]

307. maybe you shouldn't have offered it

if u didn't want it commented on.

[seabeyond]

309. there is absolutely nothing wrong with looking at a very serious issue, in a serious manner.

why your need to dismiss? anyway. i really do not care. i do not know you as a poster. most often, when i am approached in the manner you have addressed my posts, i am well aware there is an agenda. i will just assume. i am done with you. a waste of time.

[2pooped2pop]

322. lol

thank you, thank you so much

[ChisolmTrailDem]

5. Here...

...you better put this on.

[Michigander_Life]

9. I won't need that

No sensible person could object to alerting authorities about young children left unattended in vehicles.

[ChisolmTrailDem]

22. They will anyway. DU is infested with predatory symbiots. nt

[Cooley Hurd]

8. Fail...

There was no indication that the children in the thread you're speaking of were in mortal danger.

[Michigander_Life]

11. Really?

What if there had been a fire? Or a break-in? Or what if the 5 year old swallowed something and began to choke?

Young children are not capable of protecting themselves.

[Cooley Hurd]

15. All of the things you've mentioned...

...NONE of them actually happened to the family-in-question; could've have happened with an adult present - and with loss of life despite the presence of an adult.

[Michigander_Life]

18. Sure, absolutely.

But an adult is better able to deal with such emergencies. And those kinds of emergencies are not some far fetched scheme to justify the narcing -- they happen all over the country, every day. They're common. They're the reason why we arent allowed to leave our young children alone and unattended.

[treestar]

35. There is a difference between adults and children

Handling of emergencies is one of them.

What would you be saying if it were a news story and something had happened?

[Cooley Hurd]

41. Not dealing with hypotheticals here...

...so no response from me.

[seabeyond]

53. thank makes the conversation very easy when not looking at "what ifs" when discussing childrens

safety

[mopinko]

262. ^^^^

and these particular boys....

my daughter was great by herself as a 10 yo. this boy, man if something ever happened. he would fail to get his brother out, and he would never be the same.

[Ms. Toad]

155. So you're fine with leaving a 5 & 10 year old alone overnight

until something actually happens to them, because otherwise it is just hypothetical?

[Cooley Hurd]

156. I'm in favor of saving a starving child...

...but not taking one from its parents because they *might* be starving (per a layman).

[Ms. Toad]

159. The layman doesn't take the children, or make the decision to take the children -

But those charged with making that decision depend on people who notice dangerous situations reporting them. Because CSB is not omnipresent, and after those hypothetical things happen, it is often too late.

A 5 year old child being left overnight in the care of a 10 year old child, (especially repeatedly) creates risks most 10 year old children (and certainly not 5 year old children) are not mature enough to handle.

[treestar]

192. First off, he would not be taken from his mother

just for this. I've had clients charged with this and pled guilty to it and they never lost their children.

Second, above you actually seemed to suggest that since adults can still be there when something bad happens, it doesn't matter if they are there or not! So kids may all as well be left alone. Who needs babysitters? Why bother to hire them? Anything could happen even if the parents were there.

[GeorgeGist]

30. the 10 yr old dials 911.

my granddaughter has known to do that since she was 5.

[seabeyond]

36. seriously? lol. almost seems like a given a 10 should be allowed the responsibility, of merely

choosing to dial 911 in an emergency. if some said that to me, with me in consideration with my 10 yr old child. i would laugh my fuckin ass off at the suggestion to be taken seriously. really.

love you dude. but a mama, a parent, with the responsibility of my children, or anyones? not even gonna make an impression. not even a little.

again, i say this understanding the mom and her desperate position. i do. hence, why i stayed out of this. i have got to walk away.

[Gormy Cuss]

84. sea, the issue isn't whether the child should have the responsibility.

It's a much better world when children don't have too much responsibility placed on them when they're too young for it. However, the reality in low income areas here and abroad is that children don't get that choice. They are often required to shoulder responsibilities that force them to act grown up rather than have the luxury of childhood experience as a child with gradual learning about the complex responsibilities of adulthood.

We need a BIGGER social safety net. We need better options for parents in poverty and for children in poverty and/or dealing with abusive situations.

What we don't need is the presumption that parents who are struggling to find a way are neglectful and deserving punishment. In that other thread, the mother has applied for rent aid. We are failing her and others like her when we make them languish on long waiting lists because as a nation we are too cheap to fund rental housing programs sufficiently. That's just one aspect of her story. Who knows what other assistance she needs?

I'll tell you what, sea. Where I grew up there were a few families where intervention by child protective services would have been a blessing but it never happened because the families compelled the children to keep their mouths shut. All the kids in the neighborhood knew that these families were seriously screwed up even without knowing the details.

You know who got the visits? The families who were in the system via welfare or Food Stamps programs. When someone called to report, the state jumped on it if they were giving assistance to the family. Otherwise, not so much. Often the complaints were without merit (jealous exes or feuding neighbors) but when there was something to it, even if minor, the kids were removed at least temporarily. Even in good foster homes those kids were scared and unhappy and wanted to go home. If they did get reunited with their parents you can be sure that family did everything they could to stay off the radar. For some that meant going without meals and heat, or moving to smaller rat hole apartments, etc. Nothing got better for these kids.

About the only kids who did get a better outcome were those who lived in such abusive or neglectful situations that they were permanently removed and placed in better settings. There are some excellent foster parents out there. There are also extended families who sometimes step in.

[seabeyond]

87. i hear you. i hear everyone. all points are valid. that is why i am not talking about the

particulars. who am i to decide. i know piece of shit mothers. this women may or may not be. i also know kick ass parents, single fathers, single mothers who are fighting to survive and are desperate. i get that too. they are all around. i fight and up and do the most i can for those parents.

i also know piece of shit parents.

that is the point. i am NOT talking about this particular event. i do not know motive. i do not know intent. i do not have any real facts. and how i handle it? i cannot demand another handle my way. cause all things considered, parent doing the best she can, i would be there for the kids. again. not all have my ability, or desire to have their life upturned. not my place to suggest that, any more than to call the cops, not call the cops.

and i did not read that whole thread. i stopped and walked. that is not what i am talking here. but the bigger picture. which is what the OP is addressing and why i felt i might address a very real concern.

[BainsBane]

229. Except if you read through the other thread

and her explanations, it gives a pretty good sense of what her concerns are. The OP talks far more about the woman's parenting choices and the fact she won't let the kid hang out with the OP than the children being alone at night. I have to say it was the OP's criticism of the family's personal life that I found most troubling. If she had focused on concerns of neglect, people wouldn't have responded as they did.

[treestar]

193. all true but she still can't leave kids that young alone

There's got to be some way. There is also welfare and section 8 housing. There is some social safety net. It may not be enough, and of course people claim it is lazy, but maybe she should go on welfare. Or make more friends. There could be somebody willing to watch the kids that hour. I used to watch my sister's kids in the hours of the morning after she had to go to work and before her husband got home.

[Gormy Cuss]

207. TANF is limited and probably "pays" less than she makes at her job.

Making friends isn't as easy as it sounds especially since this woman isn't even from this culture. The reality is there are lots of people in this country who don't have the luxury of making better choices. Their lives are Sisyphean tasks and as a society we.just.don't.give.a.shit. We'd prefer to find fault with the struggling parents than seek better solutions.

That's the reality now. It sucked when I was a child and it's much worse now. TANF is severely time limited, whereas AFDC was there for as long as the family needed help. There aren't the JTPAs to train masses of low income workers in desirable skills. There aren't the low skill union factory jobs that used to provide families with a decent living. The minimum wage is woefully inadequate when compared to historical standards. As I wrote above, we need a better social safety net. Period.

And like it or not, ten year olds are latchkey kids all over the country. No knowledgeable person would argue that this is ideal. It is however how families try to cope in a society that treats poverty like an STD.

[treestar]

278. What group is she from?

Immigrant communities are far more cohesive than our culture is. It is our culture that is so individualistic. If in an immigrant community, I'd say it would be more likely she has friends. Heck the OP was willing to help before calling the cops. I'm wondering if the lady has some kind of emotional problem.

[mopinko]

385. she is from nigeria.

she has relatives, but yes, she is a hard one to get along with. and i think some family stuff from back home slops up here. her family was/is wealthy back there.
she does go to a nigerian church. one of those get lucky churches. sorry, there is a bit of a prejudice here. cant help it, church hater here.

but at any rate, yes, the immigrant cultures can be tight. we have a lot of african immigrants here. they might find something for her there.

[LeftyMom]

210. I don't know how it is in Chigago, but here there's years of wait to get on the wait list for Sec. 8

If I'm not mistaken they opened the wait list up to new names once about ten years ago, for a week or two. They'll open the list back up again when they work through that one. I wish I were joking.

Here cash aid for a parent of two with no other income would be about $600. Any work income would reduce that. She'd get about $300 in food stamps. Again, any work income would reduce that.

In all likelihood this mother doesn't qualify for cash aid, because if she's able to afford big city rent and a car she's probably well over the minimum threshold. Sometimes families in those circumstances qualified when things were *worse* (for example if they were homeless or had no work income for a period) and then continue to get some reduced aid as an incentive to work, but she almost certainly wouldn't qualify as a new applicant.

People who seem to think there's a ton of help for the working poor are just revealing that they've never been the working poor and don't know what the hell they're talking about.

[mopinko]

271. well, you are flat out wrong.

chicago housing authority pays fair market rent. she already has food stamps, and you dont get on the list if you dont qualify.
with 3 family members they would probably come close enough to the rent there for me to take it. even tho it is 5br.

the list is closed right now, but she has been on it for a while. if she had presented herself to the alderman's office, they could have found out where she was on the list. and helped me get into the right program to accept her.
but she didnt bother.

and the gas bill is definite. all she has to do is apply. this is a city program for exactly this situation, in response to the polar vortex that get her gas bill out of control. she has food stamps, that is all she needs to get it paid off and back on.
and btw, she has a new $100 thermostat that she wouldnt let me show her how to use. a visit from the conservation people at the gas company should fix that for her. someone she will have to listen to.

[Gormy Cuss]

298. Just an FYI: fair market rent is actually Fair Market Rent (FMR,) a HUD term.

It doesn't mean the fair market rent for the unit. The HUD FMR is calculated at the 40th percentile of gross rents (rent+utilities) in a market area, adjusted for unit size and is the level of subsidy given to housing authorities for the vouchers. From your description of this family, they would qualify for the 2BR subsidy which is $979/month.

Also, IIRC the wait time for a S8 voucher applicants in CHA is about 7 years.

[mopinko]

354. it does depend on number of occupants, but that is more than the roommate pays.

and i actually set my rent at what sec 8 was paying one of the families that moved out.

she has been on the list for a couple years.

[Gormy Cuss]

371. 1 adult, two same gender kids usually is qualified as the 2BR subsidy.

Opposite gender kids over age 5 and they would usually qualify for the 3BR level. Local housing authorities have some leeway in how they implement the occupancy rules but the above is the most common way to assess it for the S8 voucher.
The subsidy may also be adjusted based on her income. She has to pay at least 30% of her income for rent, for example.

The waiting lists BTW are rigged to give higher priority to extremely low income households. Other qualifying households can't comprise more than 25% of the voucher holders. IOW, if she's not the poorest of the poor her time on the list will likely be LONGER.

[mopinko]

382. i believe she has a special immigration status, too?

she said she didnt know that, but when she tried to check on it, they mentioned it to her. they said it didnt affect her place, tho.

if she could get some utility assistance, she might be ok.
maybe with enrolling an existing apt, these will be a little leeway.

i would rather she could make it alone, and not get another roommate. i wouldnt stop her, but she is a hard person to get along with, and i dont think the boys need any more contention. but that is just my nosy white lady opinion.

also hope they advise her to put them in the local school. she spends a lot of gas, and does a lot of drowsy driving, trying to get them the best. but the programs right here are good. they could walk to a good school. and good parks. that would be a big help also.
there is a good y that the boys could almost walk to. def could walk there after school.

and judging by the quizzing i got from the little one while sitting with him while the cops were there, she is telling them that i am supposed to be fixing the heat and hot water, but i havent done it. she knew he would ask, and i might spill. that's why she wouldnt let him hang with me, i would bet money. that one hurt. they count on me, and think i am blowing them off.
she tells a lot of stories.

[Gormy Cuss]

386. IIRC that simply means that her immigration status is one of the eligible categories.

Yes, that would not affect her place on the list --it only means that she was eligible to be on it in the first place.

[LeftyMom]

316. So no cash aid and a wait list for Sec 8? I said that. nt

[mopinko]

356. she has link, the food stamp card.

cash aid for working people is rare.

she will get her gas paid, and her heat back on.

[treestar]

279. There's no child care program?

There are tax credits for it.

I don't know about night shifts but that would be an area to look at.

[LeftyMom]

315. One needs to qualify for cash aid first, then apply for the childcare.

Tax credits for childcare are a middle class subsidy: one must have taxes to offset. Again the palpable stink of privileged cluelessness permeates this discussion.

[mopinko]

384. there are a lot of programs, including the parks, that have free slots.

if she got her sec8, park district programs are all free.
this is a heavily social service saturated area. she was already getting discounted day care on the next block, but she took him out. she said he wasnt learning enough, then he sits in a cold dark apartment.

they will hook her up, especially since it is summer time.

[BainsBane]

227. That was me as a kid

Last edited Sun Jun 15, 2014, 03:04 AM - Edit history (1)

As the eldest child living below the poverty level, I grew up responsible for looking after two younger sibling, doing the shopping, keeping the house in order, laundry, and I started earning my own money at age 10. Parents in the neighborhood trusted me to look after their kids. By age 12, I looked and spoke like an adult, though emotionally I was far from that. I have no trouble thinking a kid of 10 could be responsible enough to look after a younger sibling, since I did it all the time. I think if kids grow up in middle-class homes, they may not develop the sense of responsibility as young, but that is not this child's situation. These are immigrants from Nigeria. Ten years old is likely something quite different for them as opposed to the children of many posters here.

[Gormy Cuss]

240. I guess the good outcome of these threads is that many DUers have had their eyes opened

to one of the realities of being raised in a low income family: kids have more responsibility at younger ages. It's a survival strategy. And again, I haven't seen anyone here argue that it's a good thing. Far from it.

[mopinko]

280. i think it is mostly about the knee jerk reaction to the cops. but i know MY cops.

i repeat again, for those that missed it, that i know MY cops.

this ward was a pioneer in the nation for community policing. we have been doing it for over 20 years. there is a strong, strong working relationship with both the community, and city government, which is my real political passion. i get to meet and talk to these folks many times a year. they are a phone call away to visit our monthly dem party meeting, always noted as the strongest in the city. supported our new sheriff because of his grasp of the problems that the jail faced, but also his grasp of the solutions. he has not disappointed.

chicago and cook county, contrary to what you may have heard, actually has solid tho overwhelmed social services. yes, shit happens.
but this here situation is their sweet spot. preventing things from sliding into chaos. keeping people in their homes. and for those thinking this is a ploy to get her out, i prolly just tied my own hands for at least the next 3 months. no way i can evict her now. i could have done it with a phone call before this.

thanks to people like me, no brag just fact, we have an unfolding new day here. the old machine is nothing but a fossil, for the most part. not that the power behind it went away, but most of the old big money and mob wards are today represented by people elected by the local dfa. seriously. howard dean is a friend and a fan here.

cook county has an almost all new board over the last couple cycles, and they are true blue progressives. they have latched onto obamacare in a big way, and i predict we will show ourselves to be a model in helping the homeless and the imprisoned get the help they need to get back on their feet.

i work up close with these people. my opinions do not come from the 10 o'clock news.
again. no brag, just fact. when howard dean said the world is run by those that show up, i started showing up. and damned if he wasnt right, and damned if it doesnt make a gigantic difference.

and damned if it isnt nice to be able to trust your government. i am quite certain that should things go sideways, and the children be placed with relatives for a while, that she would get them back, because i would do everything to help her do that. and i trust that it would.
cuz, lisa madigan.

[2pooped2pop]

292. this just tells me that you think you have a right

to be in everyone's business.

I think you should just mind yours.

[Michigander_Life]

295. The welfare of children neglected by their parents is everyone's business

She did the right thing.

[mopinko]

103. there is no phone

she would qualify for an emergency phone, and she knows it.
she also knows she could put my number on that phone, and i would be there in a heartbeat. but no.

[alarimer]

172. I was babysitting at 10

Mostly during the day, true, but I don't think the world has changed all that much, or that 10 year olds are suddenly unable to dial 911 or be responsible for a few hours while the mom sleeps. Depends on the kid. Maybe I was highly dependable at that age.

[seabeyond]

174. i would not leave my kids home with 10. i babysat at 12. with parents available and at hand if i

needed them. i have known parents to leave children to babysit, at a younger age than i am comfortable. that is not my call. and not with my children.

this post is about all nighters. that is not a couple hours. i am not sure the full gist of the other Op, as i keep repeating, i did not enter this thread to talk about that thread. i do not know the situation of the other, and i cannot hold a position.

i have to edit to add.... again. i am in a position where i do not have to make desperate decisions. and that makes all the difference in the world. also. i get that.

[mopinko]

101. there is no phone.

[uppityperson]

177. How do you know? The same way you "knew" no adult was home when you called the cops, yet they were?

Or the same way you "know" what is on tv when the curtains are closed?

In the first instance here, your "knew" was wrong. In the second, how the heck would anyone know what someone is watching alone in the privacy of their place with the curtains closed?

Either way, while I understand your concern for the kids (being alone all night is wrong, I agree), your veracity has taken a hit by what you write. Too many changes as the thread went on, too many instances of things you "knew" that were proven wrong, etc.

Could it be there is a phone, yet they don't want you to know about it? Just maybe?

[mopinko]

205. the other adult in the home came to me.

tho she happened to be home that night, having taking the day off, she works the same shift, and this was a rare night she was home. she often does not even sleep there.
she verified this to the cops.

i know, because the little one turned the tv on for me, and showed me the channel that he watches. no cable means one kids channel.

both the roommate and the mom confirm, and i already knew, that there is only her cell, and she takes it with her.

the ONLY thing that i was wrong about was that the roommate had an unscheduled day off.
and btw, i knew that practice here would not be to remove the children, and it has been pointed out that llinois law does not allow for removal in this circumstance.

[Walk away]

178. Holy Cow! I'm just seeing all of this for the first time. I hope you aren't too upset...

about all of these people screaming at you for doing what you feel is the safest thing you could do for the kids.

When I was living in Jersey City I looked out my front door one night to see a toddler hanging half way out a second story window. My neighbors and I tried knocking on the locked door of the apartment but no response. Meanwhile we had called 911 and the police and fire department showed up. They actually sent a man up in a bucket to secure the child while the others broke the door in. There were two other children in the apartment but they were terrified to open the door because their mother had told them not to unlock the door to anyone. She had gone out for milk and diapers and stopped to talk to friends. IT IS NOT OK FOR KIDS TO BE LEFT ALONE.

Things could have gone very wrong that night. Lots of neighbors knew she left the kids alone but no one wanted to take the responsibility of getting involved. I guess when kids are concerned you have to go with your gut and take the abuse from others. The alternative could be much worse.

[Nevernose]

167. "In mortal danger" is not the standard

The law is child abuse and neglect. The kids in that other thread -- if everything was true as presented -- were left unsupervised for extended lengths of time on a regular basis with one elementary school child responsible for the care of another elementary age child.

If true, that's child neglect. That poster shouldn't have called the police, but the child abuse hot line, because they were not "in mortal danger." However, if you ever spend any time in and around the child protective system, you'll discover that the majority of stuff they deal with is neglect.

[DeadLetterOffice]

180. THIS. /\/\/\/\

Leaving a 5 year old and a 10 year old home alone overnight is NOT SAFE. Even if they have a phone (Seriously? A phone is not a substitute for adult supervision of small people.)

As a mandated reporter in New York State, if I was made aware of a situation like this while in my professional capacity, I would HAVE TO REPORT IT to CPS or RISK LOSING MY LICENSE.

[Bluenorthwest]

13. narcing out a person who you are also accepting payments from is a dubious moral choice

To take another's money then turn them in for being broke takes a certain sort of mindset. That is all. It is the OP's moral choice, but it would not be mine.

[seabeyond]

16. it is a business transaction. not personal. one has nothing to do with the other. nt

[boston bean]

20. Really? How can you be so sure? nt

[seabeyond]

24. how can we be sure with any of the story... that we bring the personal into.

i got that it was a business transaction from the story she gave, and the wording she used.

and you are right. i am making assumptions. as much as the one that sees it as personal. this is a tough one. for me. i do not have the answers. i do not know.

[boston bean]

25. Let's not apply false connotations to what people were really disgusted about in that first OP.

That is what I am saying.

[Bluenorthwest]

81. That is a conservative view. If it is 'business' no ethics are required. It is not how I live.

Also, the OP goes on and on about how they are all 'family'. Then it is just business.

Taking someone's money then reporting her for being broke take a certain mindset. It is not my mindset. I find that 'business is business' line to be an excuse for much evil.

[seabeyond]

85. i disagree. as i said, i stopped reading the thread quickly. but, calling cops is a ethical

decision as well as not calling, or not charging, the position you hold.

seeing rent as a business transaction separate of behaviors is not more conservative. the woman still made an ethical choice, from her point of view, whatever it was.

you are arguing that she did not make the correct choice. i hear ya. as well as all others. i am not discussing that poster right or wrong.

as i said, and will repeat. it is a hard choice. i am dealing with it now. it is not simple. that is all.

you have the way you would handle it. me? if close at hand, on same property. here is my number. i am around always. kids know i am here. steps away. basically.... freely taking care of this womans children... ignoring all other considerations that might arise.

see how it is not simple black and white?

[Bluenorthwest]

94. So where do you draw the line on 'it's just business, not about persons'? That's the same thing

some say about prostitution, human trafficking, the porn industry. Just business. Nothing personal. Separate. Unless you are willing to say there are no standards of personal behavior when seeking profit, then you need to show what your standards are, define them. They have to exist if it is not 'anything for money is ok'. So where do you draw that line?

[seabeyond]

95. again. i disagree. this is a business transaction. the ethical issue is

is another issue.

the business itself is one thing.... prostitution, porn, whatever.... i never get into that discussion. but... i often drop it to the personal. the people and the harm done to them.

obviously the decision to call the police was not about keeping money flowing. so that hardly meets with this argument. when i oppose something ethically, i do not give my money. when in a business transaction, it never goes to the personal. if there is something that arises personally, i address that.

anyway. done. we may be talking by each other. i do not know. i do not have the time to decide.

[mopinko]

267. i NEVER said that.

look, being a landlord is complicated. it aint like buying a used car.
i have a legal obligation to report crimes that i know of, child neglect or otherwise.
and i have to physically protect my property, including my own daughter, who lives upstairs.
if something happened to those kids and i knew what was going on, i would be in serious hot water. certainly at least in my own reputation in my hood.

and she wasnt reported for being broke. she was reported for neglecting her children. they have no heat, no hot water, and no phone. all those things are available to her free. she just is not connecting with them.
they will make sure that happens.

i remain very fond of this woman. she is too brave and strong for her own good. she wants to refuse help. but the help is not for her, it is for the boys. she needs to get it.

[boston bean]

17. Yep, and she will tell you herself the woman was behind in rent and doesn't pay on time.

I think it was a way to try and make herself feel good about trying to get this family out of her property without going through the legal hassle of an eviction.

[mopinko]

270. again, that is just flat out libel.

seriously.

it wasnt me trying to get her out. it was my stbex. i stopped that at great cost.
and i could have her out with a phone call to my friend the lawyer. legally.

i have a standing in this community for those that do not seem to know me.
i am risking it keeping this stuff on my property.
i have tried every single thing people have suggested. but damned if you do, damned if you dont. a bazillion people say watch the kid, which i am really too old, sick and busy to do, but when i am pissed she rejects the offer, i am a pedophile.

i am chastised for what the cavers might do to this woman.
just guess what will now happen to me.

yeah, thanks du

[Union Scribe]

274. You know these are real people right?

Does any part of your brain say, "Hey, maybe I shouldn't make ugly assumptions about people when they share personal things on DU" or have the various GD Wars just shut down so many posters' understanding that they're treating real life situations like an Olive Garden thread?

[mopinko]

383. thank you.

i cant wait to see this bubble up in through the local caver.

[TransitJohn]

27. There's no controversy

That OP was a nosey busybody with issues.

[Michigander_Life]

28. It's a good thing ..

What if there had been a fire? Or a break in? Or what if the 5 year old had choked on a Lego?

[TransitJohn]

29. LOL. eom

n/t

[treestar]

32. lol?

What exactly would you be saying? Isn't that the point of why children are too young to be left on their own?

[TransitJohn]

39. A 10 year old isn't too you to be left on their own.

Infantilizing children does much harm.

[seabeyond]

55. daddy? really? you know this how?

[TransitJohn]

68. living it

Father froze to death on an oil rig when my twin sister and I were 8, and our older brother was ten. Mom went to work underground in a trona mine on shift work. We're alive and great people.

Plus, what is with the taunting use of the word daddy? You are such a passive-aggressive poster.

[seabeyond]

72. i am pretty blatant. not much passive, in my aggressive. so, because you lived it....

there are no issues, nor should there be any questioning of it.

that being said

you and yours went thru struggles, survived. good.

[treestar]

199. That was a terrible thing

Not something that should be considered the norm.

[TransitJohn]

223. Fuck your norms

We're talking about the human condition. Isn't this a liberal board where we respect diversity? And shame on you for calling my upbring terrible. You don't know anything about it.

[Generic Other]

387. I think you are right

It's a class thing. Middle class do-gooders feel bad all around that some kids are poor and not growing up in the best of conditions. People who grew up poor see it as not a matter of choice and to them the response to their condition is just one more way for those who are better off to look down on them.

If the state feels such a compelling need to help children, then hire a sitter. Pay for childcare. Don't take her kids and pay some strangers who want an easy paycheck ( or worse) to take the mother's place. That is insensitive and not in the best interests of the children in any way.

Why is the state let off of its responsibility to provide for the needs of its citizens?

I know where you are coming from TransitJohn. Being poor means being treated by others like you are an infectious disease to be avoided. Mostly criticized for your choices, treated condescendingly by people who had never even walked in your shoes. And that is wrong.

Those kids had a roof over their head, a mother working her ass off to care for them, even the world's snoopiest landlord to make sure they were cared for. She even tried to get a room mate to help out.

Here's one of the most iconic photos in American history. How would this woman fare with DUers? We are living through a Depression. Americans out of work, families in poverty. Homelessness hitting even the formerly middle class. Without resources. EVERYWHERE. Are we going to destroy the families to save them? Because that is what it sounds like to me.

[mopinko]

401. i was raised very poor.

i have been lucky, but i never forgot. i payed it forward, and am known in my community as someone who will fight for most anyone.
and with anyone.

[TransitJohn]

407. And call the cops on most anyone

Even those who need help.

[Generic Other]

414. You have not been poor enough to know

why what you did was too extreme, Mopinko. It's a lesson for all of us. If you are getting overly involved in a poor family's life like this, make sure you do more good than harm.

But I bet you have spooked her now. I would leave if I were her. With no forwarding address. She has zero reason to trust your motives. And every reason to trust her instincts.

[HERVEPA]

66. Geez. I hope you don't have kids.

[TransitJohn]

74. Thanks for your judgement!

Always great to have nosy busybodies judge others.

[HERVEPA]

89. I have kids.

I have grandkids. I know you don't leave 10 year old kids alone.
Oh, and by the way, you've been doing plenty of judging, in case you missed that.

[treestar]

200. Well you can't be absolute on that

or you'd be saying nobody should judge anything, even if they think there is more serious abuse. That's not the point. The point is child neglect. It is not "nosy" to worry about that.

[treestar]

198. Most people disagree

No way would I leave a ten year old alone, and even more so with a yet younger child also with him.

[Michigander_Life]

33. Because emergencies don't happen, right?

Smh

[TransitJohn]

37. What if a 747 had crashed into the property?

What if a landshark knocked on the door? What if there were a zombie apocalypse.

[Michigander_Life]

52. Strawman

Realistic everyday occurrences vs fantasy exaggerations.

[TransitJohn]

62. No more than your what-ifs were a strawman.

What if there had been a fire? Or a break in? Or what if the 5 year old had choked on a Lego?

[Michigander_Life]

65. Those things can and do happen every day.

I'm still waiting for the zombie apocalypse. Eagerly.

[TransitJohn]

71. So logical argument construction isn't your strong suit.

Have a great day secure in your beliefs that you are right.

[Michigander_Life]

93. Projecting much?

You're using the zombie apocalypse as a what-if, in order to devalue the legitimate of a child choking what-if. Intellectual dishonesty and logical fallacy at it's finest. Carry on.

[ScreamingMeemie]

54. Okay...

I shouldn't be laughing, but that was hilarious.

[seabeyond]

57. so, when kids are ten, they no longer need parental supervision?

[kristopher]

134. Do you prefer taking them away from a parent struggling to survive?

Provide an option that meets the needs described in the overall package dwe all read about in the original OP yesterday. Fantasizing about some sort of option that doesn't exist makes little sense to me.

The parent isn't the problem, it is the fact that a single parent working full time can't make a wage that allows for meeting the legitimate expectations for child care needs. As it is, the least worst option is that the 10 y/o has to grow up faster than we'd hope is would be necessary.

Republicans and the 1% are responsible for that family's situation.

[seabeyond]

136. i prefer all children to have two competent, reliable parents that have access to $ that will

allow them to create a safe, happy environment without struggle.

is what i prefer.

really? in any of my posts, on this thread, you picked up i prefer children spend time in foster care, opposed to with a parent?

edit to add... i stop reading posts when the start is something like... you prefer a child to be in foster care. just perused the rest of your post.

[kristopher]

157. I asked you to make a realistic choice based on this situation.

If you think that keeping the conversation on the realistic options we have on the table is a bad thing, then you're the one playing games.

[seabeyond]

161. the reality is. you, nor i know what kind of mother this is. nothing is as black and white

as people on this board want to make it. i choose not to jump in and attack a person, but rather talk about the bigger picture. seeing how i do not really know what kind of mother this is, what really happened, what kind of neglect or harm these kids face, if any.

THAT is the reality.

do i want to see kids taken to foster? if all avenues to address the issue were made, and the children are being harmed where they are, to the point of where being out of the home is the best, .... then ya. i want them to be taken away.

i addressed something very specific. then get your post about taking the kids away.

i was being told that at ten, the kid does not need parental supervision. i challenge THAT. you made absolutely no comment about the absurdity of the poster i responded to. then gave me a ridiculous question

you want the kids to go to foster???

ya dude. that is really what i want. kids ripped from the arms of their parent.

[mopinko]

283. the realistic choice consists of help for the family, or turning a blind eye.

i am very well aware of what the cops were going to do, what was available to help the family, which this mother could not get together.

illinois law forbids removing children in this circumstance. get it? forbids.
nobody was ever going to take those children, and indeed, no one did.

i repeat. realistic options? how about what really happened?
professional cops arrived, contacted other authorities, decided when to act and when not to. they see stuff every day, and assured me, tho i didnt need it, that those kids would get an adult to speak for them, and help. help that is there for a phone call.

i should start a pool for how long it takes to get the gas back on. i have been trying since march. i would bet one week, now.

[2pooped2pop]

302. I'm sure taking showers at relatives house is not illegal

the gas is not necessary. The weather does not require it and as for doing dishes in cold water, I guess mom is too stupid to heat some water in the microwave right?

I doubt the ten year old is doing the dishes overnight.

You risked fucking up peoples lives forever for what appears to be a temporary situation.

Isn't that roommate behind on the rent too? Isn't that roommate responsible for that gas too?

[Michigander_Life]

311. So when the 5 year old chokes on a Lego?

Or swallows some chemical? Or the kids plug in something that shorts, sparks, and starts a fire?

These things happen every day. Adults know how to deal with these emergencies. 10 year olds do not. That's why what she was doing was both wrong and illegal. It was negligent. Reporting her was the right thing to do.

[2pooped2pop]

321. back to the lego?

You should try something else coz the lego is just fucking funny.

[Michigander_Life]

325. I don't think it's funny at all

Is this funny?

http://m.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/boy-5-chokes-on-lego-block-20100826-13ski.html



A five-year-old boy remains in a critical condition in a Brisbane hospital after choking on a Lego block on the Gold Coast last night.

[2pooped2pop]

329. yes, it is very funny

that you would go to the trouble of finding someone who choked on a lego to post.

[Michigander_Life]

331. Someone? A 5 year old boy. Seems relevant.

Keep digging your hole.

[2pooped2pop]

333. my hole?

am I burying myself then?

watch out, I might post a nipple

[Michigander_Life]

334. Make sure you use a NSFW tag

Or you'll end up like the last guy, who had 3 nipple posts hidden within 24 hours.

[2pooped2pop]

335. Ihope you don't get banned again too soon

U r a lot of laughs for me.

Nipple banners. That's so funny

[Michigander_Life]

336. Banned? I've never been banned.

I thank your attempt to attribute random things to me is amusing and a little creepy. Keep projecting and keep laughing at choking 5 year olds. It really helps everyone see exactly who you are.

[kristopher]

306. I'm sure you believe that...

...almost.

[2pooped2pop]

296. wow, for someone who refuses to get involved or take sides

............well, you know the rest.

[GeorgeGist]

40. What if the landlord ...

is a pedophile trying to blackmail the mother into leaving her 5 yr old with 'grandma'?

[TransitJohn]

43. A much more likely occurrence that swallowing a lego.

n/t

[seabeyond]

58. for real? i cannot figure out if you are totally joking or what.

[TransitJohn]

64. child molestation by a figure known to the family (such as the nosey landlady in the subject OP)

is much more likely to occur than accidental asphyxiation, yes

[seabeyond]

67. ah. so you arent joking. ya. reading further. i gathered. produced a lot of other considerations

[mopinko]

108. what if you are projecting.

really, some people her have really ugly subconscious minds.

[TransitJohn]

224. LOL

Off the irony charts.

[ScreamingMeemie]

42. A friend of mine's 5-year-old daughter drowned right in front of her.

Bad stuff happens; however, bad stuff did not happen here. The OP of that thread had massive personal issues with that tenant.

Of course you should call if a child is left in a car. This was not that.

[mopinko]

107. my son almost did. i pulled him out.

in fact, i saved my other son from drowning, too.
part of how i know things happen in a heartbeat.

[ScreamingMeemie]

132. You would not have been able to save your son from an undercurrent. Sorry.

[mopinko]

206. i fail to see the connection.

[2pooped2pop]

297. so are you saying that you were a bad parent

Last edited Sun Jun 15, 2014, 02:08 PM - Edit history (1)

for allowing both of your sons to almost drown? Maybe you shouldn't have put them in that situation? Yet did you not learn the first time?

[mopinko]

408. nope. i am saying you have to watch your kids.

because shit happens in an instant.

[COLGATE4]

116. As my old Law School Professor liked

to say, IF I had four wheels I'd be a wagon. Hypotheticals aren't useful here.

[Michigander_Life]

117. So you would be Ok with leaving a two year old alone?

Unattended all night?

[COLGATE4]

118. Please read what I just said

about hypotheticals. I don't have a two year old so I have no idea.

[Michigander_Life]

131. Why do you think these laws exist in the first place?

It is illegal and irresponsible to leave a young child unattended even if nothing happens to that child. Why? Because "what-if" is all too often a reality. Children are incapable of handling any number of hypothetical situations. That's the entire point of those laws.


You could leave your 5 year old home alone a thousand times and nothing ever happen. Or you could do it one time and there could be an emergency requiring immediate adult presence and action.

Get it yet?

[COLGATE4]

146. As an experienced lawyer I can tell you

without any hesitation that laws are passed for all kinds of reasons - some good, some bad, some stupid and sometimes just plain nuts. And the language of the law that is actually passed is often so imperfect or flawed that the purpose of the law being passed in the first place may well be adversely affected. So relying on the argument that something "is the law" is not a terribly persuasive way to try and make your point. You are, I think trying to solicit approval on DU for being what in the law is known as an 'officious intermeddler", i.e. someone who injects him(her)self into a situation without a legitimate reason for doing so. Throwing around all the hypotheticals you can muster (a/k/a "Parade of Horribles&quot doesn't make it any less so.

[Michigander_Life]

147. Answer one question.

Why is it illegal to leave a five year old unattended overnight?

[COLGATE4]

149. I don't know for a fact that it is. Nor

in what jurisdiction this might be the case. And I certainly have no particular insight into why a bunch of legislators approved the language of any given statute at a given time. For that you'd need to look at the Legislative History of the bill in question.

[Michigander_Life]

151. Such a lawyerly answer

I'll answer for you. It is neglectful to leave a young child unattended because a young child is incapable of taking care of itself and is incapable of handling certain what-if situations that may arise.

[COLGATE4]

217. You asked a question about a law. Don't complain when

you get a professional answer. Your 'answer' is nothing more than your own, personal opinion on the subject. You have your right to it but don't attempt to make it mine or anyone elses'. I believe you're seeking others' justification and approval for your having inserted yourself into situations where your presence wasn't required.

[2pooped2pop]

344. u ask a lawyer, then get pissed that they answer like one?

Do you always bark up all the trees but the right ones?

[Michigander_Life]

355. Whose pissed?

I'm enjoying watching people try to form an argument about how it isn't, or shouldn't be, against the law to leave a young child in the care of another young child for extended periods of time.

The answer is obvious. It's one of those laws that, on it's face, is simply "duh."

[2pooped2pop]

359. yep, I do believe you are enjoying your shit stirring. n/t

[Michigander_Life]

364. Wow.

Advocating for neglected children is "shit stirring" now. Lovely.

[2pooped2pop]

369. reopening a discussion that is this wild is shit stirring

[Michigander_Life]

370. We shouldn't discuss controversial topics?

Wouldn't that get boring? I like vanilla ice cream as much as anyone, but other "wild" flavors have their place, too.

Here's some sound advice which you will learn after you spend enough time on discussion forums: if you don't like people talking about something, it is better to just ignore the thread, than to try to berate people for talking about it.

Obviously by the incredible number of posts throughout the various threads on this topic, many DUers are eager to discuss and debate this "wild" discussion.

[BainsBane]

246. The child was not unattended

His older brother, age 10, was with him. When the OP claimed the child was alone, there was actually an adult supervising them.

[mopinko]

265. a 10 yo is not an adult.

tho she thinks he is.

and i repeat, there happened to be an adult. the same adult who came to me and asked me to do something about the boys. but it was an unscheduled say off. when she left the house, she knew the boys would be alone again, for an hour and a half. she got me out of bed, and asked me to call again. i did.

and i also repeat, there is no gas. no heat, no hot water. it was not a gas company shut off, it was voluntary. nonetheless, i hooked her up with a local agency and when that failed, gave her info on a city program that would pay the bill, all she had to do was make a call.

and no house phone, only mom's cell that she takes with her.

[2pooped2pop]

300. u r right that a 5 year old should not be left alone overnight

and this one wasn't. He had his older brother and was suppose to have the roommate there as well.

So this mother chose to keep her job so she could keep her children and went to work possibly expecting the roommate to return shortly.

No question she needs either another job or another roommate and maybe she should have just quit her job and waited for the eviction. But she is trying. She does work.

I have seen latch key kids at 5 years old staying home til their parents get home. They were white, so maybe it's ok for white people who are latch key kids, just not for black people who are struggling?

there is no good answer here but from where I come from a narc is dealt with in the manner they should be dealt with, and it isn't a party.

[treestar]

31. It takes a village

and our individualistic society has no village. the government is our contact that way. It's what right wingers complain about, but we are supposed to see it as helping.

[TransitJohn]

45. Having the fucking cops called on me ain't no village mate I'd like to build community with.

It's the opposite of 'it takes a village'.

[treestar]

191. So you are entitled to ignore the laws if you don't agree with them?

If I see you run a red light, it's is not neighborly to call the cops on you?

[2pooped2pop]

332. in my neighborhood if you did that

they'd beat you senseless. Narcing on a red light run? Many people make that mistake but never in my life have I known a Goober Pyle that would take it upon themselves to call the police. Unless they are speeding through your neighborhood on purpose, it is not your business.

Goober Pyle? Citizens arrest, Citizens arrest. lol

&feature=kp

[Puzzledtraveller]

46. I am a caseworker for CHFS

Cabinet for Health and Family Services in Kentucky. We take reports very seriously.

[Nye Bevan]

48. The thing to do is ask yourself how you would feel if those kids burned the house down

and got killed, or came to harm some other way, and you could have said something to prevent it but did not.

One option of course is to tell the parent that you know the kids are being left alone, that you are not comfortable for exactly that reason, and that you would need to report the matter if it continued.

[mopinko]

104. she was warned.

imagine you are 10, and you fail to save your brother's life.
i cant live with that, either.

[uppityperson]

49. Make sure you are clear as to who you are doing it for, and why.

Getting mad because an adult does not accept your "offers" for their children, because they do not school their children as you would, is wrong.

Make sure who you are doing it for, and why.

[Michigander_Life]

61. Intentions are not that important here

I suspect she had good intentions and was genuinely concerned for the children. However, even if she contacted the authorities solely over a personal vendetta against the mother, and reported that the 5 year old and 10 year old were being left alone overnight, the fact is that they were still being left alone overnight.

They were in danger and being neglected. Filing a report was the right thing to do.

[uppityperson]

63. Intentions are very important. Overloading a system for personal vendettas takes away resources

available for those truly in need.

As I wrote, make sure you are clear as to who you are doing it for, and why.

[Michigander_Life]

70. I wonder..

Do you think someone with a personal vendetta should be allowed to report legitimate child neglect?

[uppityperson]

73. Strawman.

Make sure you are clear as to who you are doing it for, and why.

[Michigander_Life]

75. Honest question

If the kids are in legitimate danger, does the vendetta matter?

[uppityperson]

77. Make sure you are clear as to who you are doing it for, and why.

[Michigander_Life]

79. Interesting.

[Gormy Cuss]

86. Honest question.

What if the person with the personal vendetta is reporting minor neglect out of spite while ignoring serious abuse or neglect in a friend or relative's household? Does the vendetta matter then?

[Michigander_Life]

91. No

The person is reprehensible. But reporting some neglect is better than reporting no neglect.

[moriah]

82. What about reports made solely to CYA for mandated reporter status?

Such as the report made against my ex-roommate by a doctor when he didn't realize his daughter had a hairline fracture in her foot for 48 hours. She banged it up at a school carnival on a Friday night, the school nurse thought it was fine, she walked on it but slowly the next day, and then ran that Sunday morning. We then went to the state fair, where she was on video running around without a limp for several hours -- but later that night with her mother started having pain. The ER doctor was required to report a delay in seeking medical attention and let the system sort it out.

Similarly, it wouldn't have mattered if I thought a mother was doing the absolute best she could without help, or being a lazy fuckwit. If I learned that through shitty circumstances or choice she'd been leaving her five and ten year old children home alone overnight, I would have a legal obligation to make a report. It's not about the parent. It's about the kids.

If the allegations are true, it's not that this woman is a bad mother -- it's that she desperately needs help. That's what the system is there for.

[uppityperson]

83. Mandated reporting falls into make sure you are clear as to who you are doing it for, and why.

If you are mandated, that is the "why".

[2pooped2pop]

330. actually we don't know if that is the truth at all

the story does seem to change and someone was there when she was sure they were not, so I can't go on her word that no one is ever there.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

98. this. make sure that you are not narcing because you want to be a grandmother

and the mother of the child doesn't think you should

[mopinko]

112. the mother asked me to stand in for her mother.

but even so, turning down help from a friend, again, is just mean and dumb.

it tipped it because i had tried to help in a lot of ways, including telling her that this had to stop and i was gonna report her, and here she was smacking it down. flat out.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

113. still no reason to involve cops. nt

[boston bean]

121. I'm sure the I'm gonna call the cops on you is a way to ingratiate oneself

further. It usually has the opposite effect though.

[moriah]

125. Pray tell, why not?

Hell, I'd have been obligated to do it sooner, as soon as I'd known they'd been spending nights alone. I wouldn't have had the luxury, under the law, of getting to go to the parent and having a "Come to Jesus" talk with her before reporting suspected child neglect, like this person tried to do. If I had waited and something happened to those kids I'd be spending time in jail.

I'm glad mopinko didn't wait any longer.

[uppityperson]

124. "turning down help from a friend, again, is just mean and dumb"? This, mopinko, is what bothers

me about all of this. You continue to insult her for turning down your help. She turns down offers so is "mean and dumb". THIS is what I have a problem with here. When I offer help, the person I am offering it to has the option of accepting or not accepting and I would NEVER call someone "mean and dumb" for not accepting my help.

I am not there, do not know the situation beyond what you have said, but do know that calling someone "mean and dumb" for not accepting your help is downright wrong.

ETA, I figured out why you have come to this thread rather than continuing in your thread. A hidden post.

[moriah]

154. When it comes to protecting your kids, you should do what you have to do.

Why turn down offers of financial assistance, when your children don't have hot running water to take baths in? (No, heating water in the microwave for months on end for bathing is not a solution.) Pride? That isn't an excuse to neglect your child. If there's an alternative that's doable and makes life better for your kids, you do it! And yes, failure to act in the best interest of your children is both mean to the kids, and dumb, in my opinion.

[uppityperson]

164. in which case, taken to the extreme, she should just adopt those kids out. Give them to someone

who can care for them in the manner you think best. As you write "failure to act in the best interest of your children is both mean to the kids, and dumb, in my opinion." Your advice is to give them away to someone who could provide better, in your opinion. Otherwise you are "mean and dumb".

[moriah]

179. In some extreme cases, yes, that's the better choice. (NOT saying in this one.)

When my father was diagnosed with HIV in 1992 and not expected to live to see *me* turn 18, my 5-year-old little half-sister was the subject of heavy CPS supervision. Her entry into the system's notice was when Dad's second wife (it's hard for me to call that woman "her mother&quot left her with a drug dealer as collateral, made a score, and left the family when she was six months old. Dad worked on the road as a truck driver until his diagnosis, doing drugs too but at least sending enough money home to his mother to keep a roof over their heads. My paternal grandmother needed double knee replacements, and was in a wheelchair by 1996, not to mention apparently had a nasty habit of hitting my little sister with a flyswatter when she "misbehaved".

The best thing Dad did for my little sister was to agree to the termination of his parental rights. He couldn't take care of a kid, his mother was rapidly becoming an unsuitable caregiver, and there was no other blood family in state to adopt her. She was instead able to get adopted by the same family that had adopted her older brother (who has autism and severe heart defects from his mother's drinking and cocaine use, my little sis has fetal alcohol syndrome herself). They adopted eight kids in total, three with special needs, and I've met them all. A very loving family.

Extreme cases, of course, are what make things get taken to extremes.

-----

If you're comparing the level of sacrifice for your child's well-being between going to fill out a LIHEAP application with assistance from a local alderman to get your gas turned on and giving them up for adoption, and seeing them as equal, there's an issue that's not at all about the welfare of the child.

[uppityperson]

184. I had cops called on me by my ex after I hung up the phone on him rather than argue. He told them I

was drunk since I'd never hung up on him before. A quick visit from cops and they became aware of his issues and said if he persisted in calling them over bs, they'd have a talk with him.

Later that same ex claimed he was the better parent as I had had the cops called on me, and hence he was more fit to be custodian.

Best wishes to you and yours in what sounds like a really tough situation.

[mopinko]

209. so, your motives start to show.

look. i was mad because she was saying no to the child. saying no to some learning and fun while she took a nap. i dont blame her for what she cannot provide so much as for what is offered to her kids that she say no to. for no discernible reason.

this whole making something creepy here, or creating some drama, that is just nonsense. you people are on the interwebs. you cant see me. you dont know who i am.

and i repeat, my own child lives upstairs. i would rather that she not be scarred by the thought that SHE should have done something if the worst ever happened. to say nothing of anything happening physically.

i repeat. i tried every damn thing that was suggested in that thread short of giving away my retirement savings to support someone else's kids.
and so did the roommate. and i repeat this. the roommate came to me.

[2pooped2pop]

340. their motives start to show?

the poster can have whatever motives they want for thinking you are wrong.

I think the poster was pointing out how easy it is for people to file false claims for their own agenda. Ahem

[2pooped2pop]

338. a lot of people turn off the gas in the winter

they don't want to pay the bill for the pilot light and have other cooking and bathing options like this woman does.

[moriah]

343. House is gas-stove and gas hot-water.

I do a lot of microwave cooking, but nuking and carrying enough hot water to the bathtub to give yourself and both of your children a hot bath is a ridiculous waste of time when someone (the alderman in this case) was offering to get it turned back on for you.

[2pooped2pop]

345. maybe they don't want the bill

I think microwaving your water for cooking is fine. For bathing too if that's what you want. However somewhere in this mess it was stated that they bathe at a relatives house. That is also acceptable.

[moriah]

347. "What you want" when you have kids is no longer that important.

If they have relatives to bathe with, why on earth aren't those relatives taking care of the children overnight?

[2pooped2pop]

357. obviously I can't answer that.

Maybe it would be a solution to have someone come over on nights that the roommate doesn't show up. I believe the original story was that the roommate was suppose to be there but sometimes wasn't.

I know a lot of people who shut off the gas in summer. Maybe the wonderful landlord should replace the gas hot water heater and gas stove with an electric one?

[moriah]

366. If my landlord took my gas stove, we'd be having a fight. Heh.

I love cooking on gas. i burn way too much on electric.

[2pooped2pop]

362. it was turned off voluntarily

y would they want the alderman to turn it back on? Maybe an elect stove and electric hot water heater would be more valuable to her?

[mopinko]

403. now you are off the deep end.

spect that rich landlord to buy those when the gas could be back with a phone call?
or do you think she should flip for that.

i repeat. the city would pay her bill with a phone call. i predict that gas is back on on wed.
she cant accomplish this. she needs a social worker. those boys need a social worker.

[2pooped2pop]

337. yes, maybe she is turning down this particular persons help

for good reason, like maybe she thinks this particular person is a nosy busy body. And maybe when she calls her mother there is another word attached that we are not being told?

[BuelahWitch]

183. Maybe the help you wanted to give was not the help she needed

If the story is true, then yes, the woman needed help. Saying, "I know you're having a rough time right now, what can I do to help, what do you need?" will solicit a better response than, "You need to do this and this and this." Just because someone is poor does not mean they should be ordered around. She does not live the same life you do, she has rights too.

I guess no one damning this mother has ever worked a graveyard shift. I can tell you, it's hard on a body. Double hard working those hours and being a single mother. You gave her more stress by calling the cops on her. Now she will likely be forced to go to appointments during the day when she should be resting. But she'll have to or they'll take her little boys away.

You sound very spiteful that she turned down the help YOU wanted to give, so you just gave her more grief. That was a horrible thing to do.

[mopinko]

214. i tried many ways. many.

and this was not help for her, but for her child. a kid who really needed some outside time. she had no reason to say no to HIM. if you had seen his face, it would have pissed you off, too.

and i did my share. i pulled that weight for 10 years, including many 60 hour weeks.
i'm not DAMNING anyone. i'm trying to help all 3 of them. if she cant get it together, fine, lets take it to the next level. dont lets look the other way out of pity.

[JI7]

222. the mother is from Nigeria, i know in other parts of the world many people use

terms like Grandma, grandpa, uncle, aunt etc for people they may see regularly but are not related, especially if they are older. it's seen as a sign of respect.

so i'm thinking this may have been the case with the mother if it's a custom in nigeria also.

seems the landlord took it far too seriously and as something more than it actually was.

[mopinko]

277. yes and no.

it was said with dead seriousness. including being informed that when my own daughters screw up they get a whack with the clue stick, and she should expect the same.

i am invited to family gatherings, all visiting friends and relatives come by my house. she comes from an expansive definition of family, one that includes grandmas who will sit you down and set you straight.

we had several long heart to hearts about this situation. she does accept me as her mother. she lost her own mother recently. it started because of how much i and my farm remind her of her grandmothers home.
and she KNOWS that if she got those kids a phone, which would be free, btw, i would want my own number to be first.

this was a big reason i rented to her. i wanted someone who would be at home.
and all the kids in the hood come to my farm. there are no fences.

[2pooped2pop]

339. I'm sorry but whacking with a cue stick is abuse

You should watch how you turn a phrase or some do gooder nosy neighbor might be calling cps on you.

[Amaril]

417. And you should pay closer attention to what you read

She said "clue" stick NOT "cue" stick. One is a euphemism for giving someone a reality check, the other is a physical battery.

Though, with as nasty as you have been to this poster, one does doubt that the misreading was accidental.

[uppityperson]

342. "if she got those kids a phone, i would want my own number to be first"

"this was a big reason i rented to her. i wanted someone who would be at home."

[mopinko]

374. at home with my farm.

not home all the time with the kids.

[uppityperson]

377. "if she got those kids a phone, i would want my own number to be first"

This is the problem I am having with you, mopinko. Not that you are concerned with the kids safety but that you are resentful of the mom's refusal to let you insert yourself into her children's lives as you want to. Your "offerings" come with strings, conditions, and you are resentful when the mother refuses you.

[mopinko]

381. or not. but it is my building, my home is 2 doors away. my farm is adjacent to the 2flat.

if she didnt want my number on there, fine and dandy. but i would be the first one there, with the keys, and a place for the kids to go.

we already have strings. as i have explained repeatedly, over the year that she has been here, we have become family.

and ftr, i make it a habit to watch out for the kids in my life. most of my kid's friends still call me mom, and come back to visit. i have more family of choice than blood, and i am 100% irish catholic.
they all get radical acceptance. and they all know where to come when they cant come to their parents. i have dragged many a kid over the hump into adulthood, including my five.
which, btw, tho we have had battles, are the farthest thing on the planet from a "hot mess", another libel. and dragging my kids into it is just about as low as low goes, imho.

[840high]

392. You did the right thing.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

349. thats certainly the custom in india. nt

[LittleBlue]

50. I would not have narced out the single mother in the other thread

But I don't think mopinko deserved what she got in that thread.

She was suspected of having disingenuous reasons for contacting the police. I think she felt genuine concern for the children.

[maddezmom]

56. Agree, it got really ugly

[ScreamingMeemie]

59. I believe it was her reaction to others that got a lot us scratching our heads.

To me, she almost sounds like an angry MIL (I have one). It seemed like she focused more on the 5-year-old for some reason, to be honest. Like the 10-year-old didn't count.

Being very familiar with Chicago myself, I know that children are taken on first calls of that type.

[JI7]

162. this is how i saw it, the responses just made it worse

if she had just posted about how young kids were being left alone so she reported it , that would be one thing.

but based on all the posts it looked more like she was upset the mother wouldn't allow the 5 year old to be with her .

[Union Scribe]

275. If you mean your responses

(and those of your confederates who jumped to attack because it's all a big internet game and apparently DU is 4chan now or whatever) then yeah they made it all rather worse.

[2pooped2pop]

346. confederates?

really?

[Violet_Crumble]

197. I agree on all counts...

There were some vicious attacks on her in that thread. She didn't deserve that...

[Warpy]

60. I think it was likely a tough call, much less clear than seeing an infant or toddler

locked in a hot car.

Help had been offered and rejected. That's a bit different than the single mom doing the best she can until help can be arranged.

People looked at kids very differently in the late 50s. I was a latchkey kid and I had classmates who went home and were responsible for starting supper and changing any diapers that needed to be changed. At ten.

Many ten year olds are capable of doing much more than parents expect of them. Whether they should do it is something else.

[AngryOldDem]

69. Whatever you do, if you can live with your conscience, so be it.

That's all I'm gonna say on this subject.

[B2G]

78. Those kids are not really 'alone'.

They have very vigilant landlord watching them at all times it would appear...and her daughter lives just upstairs of them.

They are asleep for the majority, if not all of the time the mother is at work. Far safter than leaving them during the day when they could get into real trouble.

And BTW, I was making bank at age 10 babysitting.

[mopinko]

114. they are not my daughter's children.

yes, i would be there. but the kids dont even have a phone to call me.

my daughter would also be quite wounded if something were to occur. imagine seeing the emt's wheel out a couple burnt kids.
that would not be a good thing.

they have been told to come to me, but who knows what a timid kid will do in the face of an emergency. freeze is my guess with this particular kid.

[B2G]

115. Gee, just a few months ago she was 'wonderful'

"we have a 2 flat that is on the other side of the farm- so 2 doors away.
he says he is planning to tell the 1st floor tenants that we will not renew their lease in may.
as relieved as i will be to get him out, this breaks my heart. (which, of course, he knows) we have a wonderful woman from nigeria and her 2 boys. she is so happy to be there, and treats me like family. now she will have to go out and try to find another decent place that will take 2 black boys. oy."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/11514986

[mopinko]

284. she's still wonderful.

i love her. but she is making the wrong decisions for her kids.

as has been pointed out repeatedly, i tried. hard.
i did pretty much everything that people in that thread said i should do.
for no reason i can see she turns down help, and fails to get help that is a phone call away.
she could get her gas bill paid by the city, and she could get a phone for those kids for free.

i sincerely hope that i am able to patch things up with her. i am sure she is scrambling to look for another apartment right now. i hope she doesnt find anything.
she is likely looking anyway, and she will have a hard time with the rent when the roommate moves out, which will be soon.
sec8 would be fine, she could afford it herself. but she didnt bother to go find out where she is on the list, which the alderman thought they could do.

it will be tough to find something, and hopefully all will be patched up by the time she gets anywhere.

[SidDithers]

100. Day 10 and more chastising of DUers...

interesting.

Sid

[uppityperson]

105. Huh, I missed that. As they replied to me "Interesting".

[Michigander_Life]

110. Chastising?

Your comment is duly noted.

[ohheckyeah]

106. I didn't comment in the original thread because

most everything had been said.

I don't know what the real situation is, partly because the OP couldn't be bothered to write out coherent sentences. If you can't be bothered, don't get pissed off when people don't understand what you were trying to say, and for God's sake, don't make out like you are the poor, martyred landlord.

On a message board, the only way to be even remotely understood is to communicate in a fashion people can understand. It's really not that hard to capitalize the first word in a sentence and write out a complete sentence. I'm tired of trying to make out gibberish.

[TransitJohn]

129. +1

Fucking A.

[laundry_queen]

186. omfg YES! Thanks for saying that. nt

[ohheckyeah]

196. You're welcome and

it's nice to know I'm not the only person that it irritates.

Thanks to both you and TransitJohn for your reply.

[Bobbie Jo]

216. THIS!!

The bludgeoning seemed rather self-inflicted.

I didn't comment on the original thread either for similar reasons.

[smokey nj]

250. Thank you!

[noamnety]

109. I've called CPS before.

Just once. On a very good friend, who was doing a few things that crossed the line to abusive toward her daughter (my kid's best friend at the time.) No regrets in calling.

They didn't take the child away. I think it snapped the stepdad in line; he realized his actions were going to have consequences and somebody was going to stand up for the child, even if the mother (my friend) was willing to be that person.

Seems like it would be pretty bad to look the other way if there was reason to think the kids were being neglected. Probably it would be fine ... but I don't know how you could live with yourself if something happened to one of them.

[morningfog]

120. Cool story, bro.

[Michigander_Life]

127. Thanks for your contribution.

[morningfog]

135. No thank YOU for your tro, er, contributions.

I suspect you are making up your stories for one reason only.

[Michigander_Life]

137. Couldn't quite bring yourself to level the personal attack?

Not surprised.

It's easier to hide behind insinuation.

[morningfog]

138. BRAAAAAIIINS!!!

I am happy for you gettin your much desired attention.

[Michigander_Life]

141. Thank you for your contribution.

I'm not sure why you object to my two threads -- do you doubt that I work in an office environment? I know that seems like an outlandish claim. Do you doubt that I have reported children left unattended in a vehicle? I know, it seems impossible.

[morningfog]

142. I'll be blunt. You are a previous banned poster. We all know that.

You have returned and have shown, quite clearly, that you are here to disrupt by posting flamebait.

I have no reason to believe anything you claim. In fact, I doubt it all.

[Michigander_Life]

145. I guess it's easier to throw wild and unfounded accusations

Than it is to discuss a topic or defend a point of view. Good luck.

[morningfog]

148. Can't deny it, huh? LOL. Enjoy your stay (return).

[Michigander_Life]

152. Why would I humor you?

[Electric Monk]

150. Obvious is obvious, indeed. nt

[Autumn]

163. Jury results on your post LOL

On Sat Jun 14, 2014, 05:15 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

I'll be blunt. You are a previous banned poster. We all know that.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5098724

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

I don't know if Michigander_Life is a previously banned poster, regardless these accusations and attacks on new members is rude and disruptive. Please hide.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sat Jun 14, 2014, 05:24 PM, and the Jury voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Sorry, we all know this is a previously banned troll. A skunk can't change it's colors and I'm not going to vote to hide the truth.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Not seeing the 'flamebait'. Alerter states (s)he doesn't really know if ML was previously banned. As for attacking others, alerter has done the same to ML. Hiding wouldn't be consistent, considering this thread. Unless the entire thread was hidden.
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[morningfog]

188. Nice.

[etherealtruth]

133. One of the things absent from your post ....

... is the acknowledgement of the issues that face the working poor ... quite often they are "forced" into untenable situations.

One really needs to look at the outcome of their intervention ... a child locked in a car poses an immediate threat to the child and I completely agree someone needs to be alerted immediately ... abuse poses an immediate risk .... something such as a 5 and 10 year old being left alone for an hour when the room mate leaves and the parent arrives home is a bad situation (and certainly has risks) ... but, what are the options for the working poor? Calling the authorities raises the very real potential for these children to be removed from the home ... possibly good and just as likely to be very bad.

What options are actually available to working poor families (headed by a single parent)? What will intervention by the authorities achieve ... will resources suddenly become available to the parents? It is possible that untapped resources will be provided ... but not likely (social welfare spending has been gutted).

You state: "I would rather meddle and be able to sleep at night, than turn a blind eye and have to deal with a dead kid who I could have saved." Many times this is true .... in the thread (with very limited info) it is not completely apparent that the children will be better off (or even safer) after the meddling

[Bobbie Jo]

143. Jury is in....

AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service
On Sat Jun 14, 2014, 01:20 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

On "narcing out" negligent parents
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025097739

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

I am alerting for a jury because our Hosts are impotent in GD and refuse to enforce the SoP. This thread is not GD material, it is a copy cat thread, it is about DU and it is whining about DU. It is also flame bait from a new poster who only disrupts. Please vote HIDE to enforce our community standards upon return disruptors.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sat Jun 14, 2014, 01:28 PM, and the Jury voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Agree with the alerter. The GD hosts are essentially useless, the fix is in with playing favorites, and blatant alerter bias. This "new" poster needs to read more and shit stir less.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The post expresses a point of view. I understand that it could rankle someone with a different point of view (such as myself), but it does not meet the standard of "disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate."

Frankly, the alerter was "whining about DU" more than the OP.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: If every copycat thread in gd got hidden, there would be nothing left.
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: obvious troll is obvious.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Disruptor. Hide.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I wouldn't call this a copy-cat thread; it's a discussion about another discussion that took place this week.

[Michigander_Life]

144. It's interesting that someone would alert on this post.

At least the jury system delivered a proper verdict.

[Violet_Crumble]

165. This GD host has a question for the alerter...

Where in the GD SOP does it say there's to be no copycat OPs? Not that I think it is a copycat OP, but there was no SOP alert sent on it, and my guess is because the alerter knows that it's not violating the SOP and GD hosts aren't going to just lock OPs because the alerter doesn't like it or the person who posted it...

[Bobbie Jo]

169. Wasn't me

I was on the jury, and not the one referring to copycats.

[Violet_Crumble]

170. I know it wasn't you...

It said in the alert thingy that you'd served on the jury

[Bobbie Jo]

185. lol - yes

Sure did.

[ucrdem]

241. Re alerter's comments:

No SOP alerts have been received on this OP to my knowledge, and nothing in GD SOP would give hosts any reason to lock it.

[alarimer]

171. I won't "narc" unless I see some crime being committed.

Poverty is not a crime.

[Michigander_Life]

176. That's true

But leaving a young child unattended is a crime, so I reckon you would "narc."

[morningfog]

187. Except when it's not.

[Violet_Crumble]

201. When isn't it? n/t

[morningfog]

203. Depends on the age and the state.

It is simply not a crime in every state at any age. Others depend on the age. Even then, it would depend on the child and circumstance to be a crime.

[mopinko]

215. well, the cops here took it pretty serious.

they witnessed it, and they stepped in. period.
as did the cps person that had been consulted the first visit and had said no.

[BainsBane]

273. In the other thread you said they didn't take it seriously enough

So you waited until the roommate left to call them again.

[2pooped2pop]

350. apparently it is an ever changing story n/t

[mopinko]

409. yeah, your reading comprehension could use some work.

i know you are poring over my every work. try working for more comprehension, and less looking for loopholes. you might grok the whole story at some point. well, nah, but....

[laundry_queen]

415. Maybe try writing coherent posts. nt

[mopinko]

264. child negligence is.

the cops agreed, a crime was committed. that is why i called them, to witness a crime that otherwise has no evidence.

[rug]

175. Screw that. I call the cops everytime I see a mother breast feeding in public.

[Autumn]

189. Screw that. I call the cops everytime I see some guy pushing a loaf of bread in a wheelbarrow.

[rug]

220. I don't blame you.

It starts with that and then society goes down the crapper.

[99Forever]

190. In the case of the thread you are referring to...

... you couldn't be more wrong. The creepy landlord with a nose problem is exactly the kind of self-appointed "do-gooder" this nation DOESN'T need.

[ohheckyeah]

195. I did report a situation to

Child Protective Services one time.

I was going to work one morning in and was driving a four-lane road. In the middle of the road was what appeared to be a 3 or 4 year old little boy with traffic zipping around him. I pulled into a parking lot and grabbed him up. I went looking for where he lived in a nearby apartment complex and finally found a woman who knew where he lived. I knocked on the door, holding the filthy dirty, scabbed up little boy and a woman answered the door. She had an infant in her arms, a toddler at her feet, and gave me a blank look. I asked her if it was her son and she said yes, took him and slammed the door.

Yeah, I called CPS over that. I hated to do it in that it was obvious she was in over her head, but he could easily have been killed.

I often wonder what happened to that poor little boy and his family.

[kickysnana]

226. Amazing you can tell a negligent parent with a glance. Such power!

[Rex]

239. Enjoy your stay!

[Michigander_Life]

247. Thanks

[davidpdx]

245. The threads on this topic have become unusually nasty, even by DU standards

I posted my opinion on the other thread. Having been a kid this happened to, I really dislike it. I don't know what I would have done. As I said in the other thread, I think the situation is bad for everyone involved. It is very sad for the two boys.

[IronLionZion]

248. If it were easy, it would be easy

the fact that it is controversial is a testament to how complex these situations can be with multiple deciding factors including lots of stuff the person doesn't know about. Such factors could include how well you trust the authorities to sort it out or not. Its a tough decision to get involved in other people's business because you think you can help a child.

There is even a hidden camera show on ABC called "What would you do" that includes various scenarios to see if random strangers will step and help. People often triage this based on how much the child looks like they need help.

I hope whatever happens to the children is better than what they had before.

[mopinko]

249. i trust my cops.

not if i am a black kid standing on the corner smoking weed.
but i do know my cops , this neighborhood was a pioneer in community policing, plus this is just something that we train our cops highly in.
and they were just awesome.
i also knew the guildelines, and KNEW they were not going to be taken away. i know how my government works around here.

shit happens. but they still have me to watch out for them, if they need me.

[IronLionZion]

252. Good

Hope it works out for the kids.

[mopinko]

266. if i wasnt sure something good would come, i wouldnt have called

but i DID make damn sure i knew what was going to happen.

she gets a lot of offers of help, and good advice, but she is a hard headed and proud woman. hopefully she will listen to this advice.
i do know she loves those kids.

[2pooped2pop]

310. lol yeah I trust those Chicago cops

after watching them beat the fuck out of people after corralling them at a peaceful protest march.

[mopinko]

367. i know my local cops,

we were pioneers in community policing.
and certainly we have plenty of bad cops. i would not only fire the whole gang crimes unit, i would probably throw them in prison.

but i KNOW how my cops are, and again, the REALITY is that they were awesome. and backed me up 100%. including in knowing that the situation did not warrant the removal of the children.

so, your fantasies aside, that was what really happened.

[LeftyMom]

373. You're an old white lady with money. Your tenant is poor and black.

"Your" cops don't work for her.

You know this, you're not stupid.

[mopinko]

376. no, you are the one who is mistaken.

most of the people in this hood are poor.
they serve and protect them, too.

i know my cops. i know my ward, and i trust my government because i helped elect them. you are free to not believe that. too bad you cant see my autograph collection.
too bed you dont get phone calls like the one i got from a woman running for congress in wisconsin because jan schakowsky gave her my name and phone number.

no, i am not stupid. this was not a whim.

[LeftyMom]

380. Wow, you really are clueless.

Cops are going to treat a poor black woman differently than they treat a white lady with money. Period.

All through this mess you keep insisting that your connections can move heaven and earth for this woman. You couldn't even get yourself into HRC's book signing. Your view of yourself is overblown at best, you are not a power broker. Get a grip.

[mopinko]

389. that's not the point. the point is that we do this stuff right here.

and it is because the community cares, and watches.
i didnt say my connections could move heaven and earth. just get her damn hot water back on. and point her towards a lot of services, because that is who we ARE here.
you dont know my community, or me. as it happens, i do.
we have good people. i trust them. they do good work. they are not going to do anything but help this family.

and i had the same ticket as everyone else, i just got there late.

as for who i am here in real life, like i said, you dont believe in facts apparently, and i assumed you would reject it. but the point wasnt about me. it was about the people we elected. they are some of the best.

[BainsBane]

276. On narcing out negligent nipples

What did the nipples know, and when did they know it?

[2pooped2pop]

353. I know they were negligent

Hardly providing a dime's worth of milk and attempting to force feed a baby at that.

Take away that boob!

[Generic Other]

388. Is this really how DU thinks the poor should be treated?

Half of American households do not have enough money to cover housing, food, healthcare and other basic expenses. More than half the kids in this country are in this situation. I call that a national emergency. Maybe just maybe we should quit blaming the parents and start asking why there is no government response to a legitimate emergency? Start helping rather than causing more harm by our interference. No FDR-like action? Where is the CCC or the WPA? Why shouldn't a parent be able to find government funded daycare? Or affordable housing? Or a job?

We all know why. And so we are all to blame. I suppose after DUers save the poor children from their mother, they will expect to be rewarded by having the kids throw flowers at them!

I am disgusted that anyone believes "narcing" someone out makes one some sort of working class hero.

Americans have not historically had many moral qualms about forcing mothers to leave their children to fend for themselves. There's even a folksong about it:

All The Pretty Little Horses is a southern folk lullaby with an interesting historical background. It is believed it was originally sung by an African American slave whose time was completely taken up caring for her master’s babies or children, and as such lacked the time to take care of her own properly.

http://babylullabymusic.net/lullabies-vol-1/all-the-pretty-little-horses/

[mopinko]

390. this community works hard to take care of our own.

it may be a big city, but it is a small hood.
she absolutely deserves better. but so do her boys.

[Generic Other]

391. But what you are doing is not helping anyone

That is the point. You are trying to save a family by destroying it. Do you think the boys would hug you and call you granny if they knew you were calling the cops on their mother? They probably already know and now fear that you will hurt her. You think you know what's best for them. You don't. My family was poor. And ethnic. We didn't live by your norms in any way, shape or form. If you had tried to take me from my mother for this, I would have gone kicking and screaming.

And the animosity I felt toward you would be lifelong.

This is what the people who have experienced poverty and hard choices have been telling you over and over on two threads now. And even so, you don't care to listen. Even to people who grew up in households like the one you claim you want to help. Causing further hardship for families in crisis is not helping anyone.

If you want to be seen as a fairy godmother, you can't seem to come off as a wicked witch. If I were the poor woman, I would not open the door to you or ever speak to you again. And I would leave in the night with no forwarding address. Even a homeless shelter would feel warmer.

[mopinko]

399. neither you, nor anyone who has attacked me, are here.

these are real people. and they really will get real help.
i know the system HERE. not some interweb horror locker, here.

i am not throwing them to the dogs. i am getting them the social supports that poor families need to succeed. she wasnt getting them on her own.

heat. hot water. a phone call away.

i do get it. it just isnt THIS reality. whatever people's lens on the world it.
i DO know what i am doing. i did get help before doing it.
and i waited for the kids to finish school, but did it with an axe so that they would have good care over the summer.

sure, lots of kids make it. and lots of kids dont.
i have no shame in standing up for them.

me, i, am a good conciliator here in meat space. sure that will not be believed, but does actually happen to be true. i will do my best to repair this rip.
but i dont back down.
i hear. i just dont agree.

[NYC_SKP]

394. I shouldn't be shocked, but I am.

I'm shocked at what I see in this thread, the attacks on you and your character and the blind support for a woman who may be bringing far more harm than good to her kids.

Having testes or eggs seems to be all that's required to have children, and having them seems to come with a full list of rights, for the parents (not so much for the kids who don't have a lot of say in their predicaments).

I know it might sound like a RW TP, but having worked with a LOT of kids from toxic homes and their parents, and being a product of a somewhat toxic home, I can say with authority that many people are not fit to have children.

For the childrens' sake, their rights need to come first, well ahead of some assumption of innocence of the parents.

Those kids and even that parent are lucky to have you around to advocate for better conditions.

What I think about people who want to automatically shit on you for what you are doing isn't fit to print, I don't want a hidden reply.

Thanks for what you're doing!

[mopinko]

398. i was beginning to think that no one here even knew me any more.

thanks.

[Michigander_Life]

400. You have a lot of support

It's unfortunate that the minority who put their political ideologies ahead of the actual wellbeing of children also happen to scream the loudest and stomp their feet the hardest.

[mopinko]

405. story of my life.

dont remember who said it first, but i dont want a lot of friends, just the right ones.

fortunately my real world is a target rich environment.

[lumberjack_jeff]

413. +1 n/t

[Bettie]

393. It depends on how you define 'neglectful'

Leaving a kid in a parked car on a hot day is not OK.

However, needing sleep during the day and having the kids entertain themselves for a few hours while you get some isn't neglect.

Cooking in a microwave instead of on a stove isn't neglect.

Kids playing in the yard without a helicopter parent hovering over them is not neglect.

A lot of people these days seem to believe that unless you are physically attached to your child 24/7 you are a neglectful parent.

That isn't the case.

[Michigander_Life]

395. The presence of a parent changes things

I think there would be much less debate if a parent was present but sleeping, and the 5 year old is being watched by the 10 year old. In this case, the parent was at work and no adults were home during the overnight hours.

[Bettie]

396. A responsible ten year old can

watch his or her younger siblings.

I was babysitting at 10, even overnight, for other people.

Sorry, unless the 10 year old is incredibly irresponsible or developmentally disabled, I don't see a huge problem.

I'm the mom of three boys and at 10, my oldest could watch his brothers.

[Michigander_Life]

397. Each child is different

I think you would find a healthy argument on DU about whether an average 10 year old is responsible enough to take care of a 5 year old overnight, unattended.

[mopinko]

404. every night? get his brother up for school every day?

heating up wash water in the microwave, since they have no hot water.

he is a sweet, timid, almost silent child. he wouldn't handle an emergency well. he would be destroyed if anything happened.

i had an 11 yo who was fine with a little brother. and fine alone. this kid is not that.

[moriah]

410. I hope you don't live in a state that has different standards.

Remember, a 13-year-old has been considered too young to babysit in two different instances in Connecticut, even though there are no state laws on the books giving a specific age: http://stratford.patch.com/groups/opinion/p/children-home-alone-parents-arrested-but-what-s-law

[mopinko]

402. first, i did not define it. i called on those who know how this state defines it.

but 2 kids, left alone night after night, no heat, no hot water, for 3 months. when she knows, KNOWS that she can get that bill paid, in full, by the city.

add the rest on top of it, yeah, fits my definition.

[lumberjack_jeff]

412. If it would be considered neglect to leave the child at home while going out to a bar occasionally..

... then it's neglect to do so while going to work daily.

Choosing to have children carries consequences, chief of which is that you can't always do everything you want.

I support child care subsidies and appropriate public assistance. Needing child care generally constrains your work schedule to the day shift.

[NCTraveler]

416. Derp. nt.