Who's more honest: Snowden/Greenwald or the federal government?

[MannyGoldstein]

Which of these do you most agree with?

13 votes, 0 passes | Time left: Time expired
	I tend to believe the federal government more than Greenwald/Snowden.
	2 (15%)
	I tend to believe Greenwald/Snowden more than the federal government.
	11 (85%)
	Greenwald is a zombie vampire Libertarian.
	0 (0%)
	I just *know* Manny's up to no good here.
	0 (0%)
	Other.
	0 (0%)
	0 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided.
Show usernames Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

[grasswire]

1. the "federal government" is too big an entity for me to consider the comparison

I might trust many parts of the federal government, and totally distrust other parts.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

6. That's a really good point.

And could be scaled as well. I'm sure there are both trustworthy and untrustworthy types in many of the individual agencies.

[1StrongBlackMan]

15. That IS a good point ...

One I hadn't thought of in that way.

But taken as a whole, I do not believe either is "Honest" ... But for different reasons. The Government for, arguably, (though not in the DU world) legitimate reasons, i.e., national security; whereas, ES/GG/JA, are untrustworthy to protect their franchise/profits.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

34. I can see where GG and JA make money

But how is ES profiting here? Seems to me he was making phat stacks of cash and living large while he worked for the NSA, and gave that up for crappy hotel rooms and bad food and being stuck in a backwards country.

And given the government history of misusing intelligence to spy on minorities and civil rights groups, I'm rather surprised you trust the government - they've got a many decades long history of bad behaviour, and nothing really to suggest they've ever cleaned up their act.

[1StrongBlackMan]

37. Well ...

First, do we really know how snowden is living? Does anyone know how he is paying his rent and eating everyday?

And then, again, we do not know what snowden values ... is having fat stacks and living large more important than celebrity?

And given the government history of misusing intelligence to spy on minorities and civil rights groups, I'm rather surprised you trust the government

I didn't say I trust the government ... in fact, I said I don't believe the government to be honest; but, I do recognize that government has a legitimate reason for its lack a transparency.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

38. I'll answer a question with a question...

Why is there any reason to believe that Snowden is living any better than crappy hotels and bad food? Of the three, GG is probably monetarily profiting off of this more than anyone, and I haven't heard anyone suggesting that he's suddenly living like a 'high roller'. So no, I don't know for sure what his living arrangements are atm, but I haven't seen any evidence that he's better off now than he was when he was making 200k a year, living in Hawaii with a 'hot girlfriend'.

Second, one of the main charges AGAINST Snowden before was that he knew what he knew years earlier, but waited until after Obama was in office to do what he did. Would a man truly obsessed with celebrity have waited years to be a celebrity when he didn't have to? Occam's razor seems to say to me that he did what he said he did - waited in hopes that the President would rein in an agency wildly overreaching, then went public when even a Dem president failed to change things begun under Bush.

[Xipe Totec]

2. As the limit of honesty -> 0

Though call.

[MannyGoldstein]

10. L'Hopital Rulez!!! nt

[Xipe Totec]

13. And Lorentz measures. nt

[onehandle]

3. None of the above. Excluding Manny. nt

[Cali_Democrat]

4. This a common notion in certain circles:

Government cannot be trusted......government is too big....government needs to slim down.....starve the untrustworthy government of tax funds....drown in bathtub.....etc....etc....etc.....

[MannyGoldstein]

5. I think government should be larger

Just not fighting a war against the 99% at the pleasure of the wealthiest

[Cali_Democrat]

11. So you think the untrustworthy federal government should be larger? nt

[MannyGoldstein]

12. Larger *and* working for *us*

Ergo, it should become trustworthy, among other things.

[Cali_Democrat]

14. Riiiiiiiight. nt

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

7. Government SHOULD not be trusted.

It is not our job to 'trust' government'. Which is why we have what sunshine laws that we do, and why we need even more. We pay for government, we should be free to know pretty much every boring detail of what is done by government in our names or under the assertion that it is being done 'for our good'.

Government should not be a 'black box' into which we pour money and trust.

And government entities need to be the right size for the tasks being performed. In the case of the VA, in the aftermath of a decade of war, that means much larger, obviously.

[1StrongBlackMan]

16. Robert Reich spoke to this earlier ...

... know this populist discontent can be neutralized politically if Americans see the federal government as part of that same corrupt system, fundamentally dysfunctional, and incapable of working for the public good.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/101696370

Only he was talking about Republicans. Interesting intersection.

[Cali_Democrat]

17. No doubt about it

The goal is to paint the government as a sinister entity that cannot be trusted. This plays into the hands of conservatives.

[1StrongBlackMan]

18. And that "party" that begins with an "L" ...

that people keep telling me don't exist on DU.

[BillZBubb]

22. Virtually every liberal agrees with Libertarians on some issues.

There is a good thread at

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5161256

where you can take a quiz to see how much of a Democrat/Green/Republican/Libertarian you are. Try it.

Attempting to paint DUers as Libertarians because of their position on this one issue shows a lack of understanding of the political spectrum.

[1StrongBlackMan]

25. It's not their position on this one issue; but rather, ...

their complete lack of concern about other issues ... Issues that involve more than their personal interests.

[JoeyT]

40. Of course it exists here.

Plenty of people defend libertarian ideas, like toll booths on interstates, free trade agreements, education reform, etc.

You know, the meat and potatoes kind of stuff libertarians love to harp on about.

[MannyGoldstein]

23. Was he referring to known Libertarian Jimmy Carter?

“America does not have a functioning democracy at this point in time."
- Jimmy Carter, 2013

Undermining trust in our government! Scoundrel!

[1StrongBlackMan]

26. There is a difference between democracy and government ...

but you know that, right?

[MannyGoldstein]

29. In this case, Carter was referring specifically to our government. nt

[1StrongBlackMan]

32. No ...

he was referring to politics. But you know that, too.

[MannyGoldstein]

33. No...

He was referring to Operation Spy On Everyone:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/07/18/1224679/-Jimmy-Carter-Defends-Snowden-and-Says-America-does-not-have-a-functioning-democracy

But you knew that.

[1StrongBlackMan]

36. The NSA matter is a political question ...

as opposed to the ability of government to provide services to the American people in a competent manner. Wait ... wasn't that what Reich was talking about ... the republicans (and apparently others) attempting to convince people that government can do no good for the American people?

[randome]

8. The S&G Story: Year 2.

Some sitcoms should have never lived on after their pilot episode.

The only human beings one should trust are those you know personally. And even then...well...keep your eyes open.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[UTUSN]

9. Well,when you put it *that* way!1 n/t

[Ken Burch]

19. Does Greenwald being a "Zombie Vampire Libertarian" mean he can't be telling the truth?

I don't see a conflict there, myself.

[MannyGoldstein]

21. Just before he drinks your blood then eats your brains, and

unleashes Free Market Forces on you, he whispers...

"Ha-ha! The Swarm was right! I *am* a Libertarian! A Libertarian Zombie Vampire!!!" Which is the truth, of course.

Here's a pic of him about to sink his Libertarian Zombie Vampire fangs into dreaded Socialist Kshama Sawant:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5134508

Yum! Socialists are good eatin'!!!

[Ken Burch]

31. uh...they make such a lovely couple?

[snooper2]

20. it is late and time to go to bed so this thread will now,..., die

[BillZBubb]

24. With respect to government snooping, easy...

Snowden and Greenwald are far more honest. The government hasn't been able to disavow a single document they've released. But the government has in the past denied doing what the documents are showing they have done.

By any measure of honesty, this isn't even close.

[babylonsister]

27. I don't care so much; I'm fighting the crazy teabaggers. We all

pick our fights. I don't have enough energy for both.

[Rex]

28. Hard to say on that one. nt

nt

[Electric Monk]

30. Hmm, nadin voted in your poll, despite having her 5th strike hours before you posted it.

Interesting loophole?

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

35. DU polls are ouija boards for the departed? ;) nt

[hfojvt]

41. see this thread on the announcements page

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1013&pid=3332

Members whose transparency pages are showing will not be restricted in any other way. They can even still send alerts. But they cannot post and they cannot serve on juries.

[Douglas Carpenter]

39. The cream always rises to the top - that is why the smartest and most trustworthy people

always become leaders.

"If you criticize the government the terrorist have already won."