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Fri Jun 27, 2014, 08:34 PM

 

Who's more honest: Snowden/Greenwald or the federal government?

Which of these do you most agree with?
13 votes, 0 passes | Time left: Time expired
I tend to believe the federal government more than Greenwald/Snowden.
2 (15%)
I tend to believe Greenwald/Snowden more than the federal government.
11 (85%)
Greenwald is a zombie vampire Libertarian.
0 (0%)
I just *know* Manny's up to no good here.
0 (0%)
Other.
0 (0%)
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Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

41 replies, 2514 views

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Reply Who's more honest: Snowden/Greenwald or the federal government? (Original post)
MannyGoldstein Jun 2014 OP
grasswire Jun 2014 #1
Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jun 2014 #6
1StrongBlackMan Jun 2014 #15
Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jun 2014 #34
1StrongBlackMan Jun 2014 #37
Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jun 2014 #38
Xipe Totec Jun 2014 #2
MannyGoldstein Jun 2014 #10
Xipe Totec Jun 2014 #13
onehandle Jun 2014 #3
Cali_Democrat Jun 2014 #4
MannyGoldstein Jun 2014 #5
Cali_Democrat Jun 2014 #11
MannyGoldstein Jun 2014 #12
Cali_Democrat Jun 2014 #14
Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jun 2014 #7
1StrongBlackMan Jun 2014 #16
Cali_Democrat Jun 2014 #17
1StrongBlackMan Jun 2014 #18
BillZBubb Jun 2014 #22
1StrongBlackMan Jun 2014 #25
JoeyT Jun 2014 #40
MannyGoldstein Jun 2014 #23
1StrongBlackMan Jun 2014 #26
MannyGoldstein Jun 2014 #29
1StrongBlackMan Jun 2014 #32
MannyGoldstein Jun 2014 #33
1StrongBlackMan Jun 2014 #36
randome Jun 2014 #8
UTUSN Jun 2014 #9
Ken Burch Jun 2014 #19
MannyGoldstein Jun 2014 #21
Ken Burch Jun 2014 #31
snooper2 Jun 2014 #20
BillZBubb Jun 2014 #24
babylonsister Jun 2014 #27
Rex Jun 2014 #28
Electric Monk Jun 2014 #30
Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jun 2014 #35
hfojvt Jun 2014 #41
Douglas Carpenter Jun 2014 #39

Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Fri Jun 27, 2014, 08:36 PM

1. the "federal government" is too big an entity for me to consider the comparison

I might trust many parts of the federal government, and totally distrust other parts.

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Response to grasswire (Reply #1)

Fri Jun 27, 2014, 08:56 PM

6. That's a really good point.

And could be scaled as well. I'm sure there are both trustworthy and untrustworthy types in many of the individual agencies.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #6)

Fri Jun 27, 2014, 10:30 PM

15. That IS a good point ...

 

One I hadn't thought of in that way.

But taken as a whole, I do not believe either is "Honest" ... But for different reasons. The Government for, arguably, (though not in the DU world) legitimate reasons, i.e., national security; whereas, ES/GG/JA, are untrustworthy to protect their franchise/profits.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #15)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 06:30 AM

34. I can see where GG and JA make money

But how is ES profiting here? Seems to me he was making phat stacks of cash and living large while he worked for the NSA, and gave that up for crappy hotel rooms and bad food and being stuck in a backwards country.

And given the government history of misusing intelligence to spy on minorities and civil rights groups, I'm rather surprised you trust the government - they've got a many decades long history of bad behaviour, and nothing really to suggest they've ever cleaned up their act.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #34)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 07:20 AM

37. Well ...

 

First, do we really know how snowden is living? Does anyone know how he is paying his rent and eating everyday?

And then, again, we do not know what snowden values ... is having fat stacks and living large more important than celebrity?

And given the government history of misusing intelligence to spy on minorities and civil rights groups, I'm rather surprised you trust the government


I didn't say I trust the government ... in fact, I said I don't believe the government to be honest; but, I do recognize that government has a legitimate reason for its lack a transparency.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #37)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 07:37 AM

38. I'll answer a question with a question...

Why is there any reason to believe that Snowden is living any better than crappy hotels and bad food? Of the three, GG is probably monetarily profiting off of this more than anyone, and I haven't heard anyone suggesting that he's suddenly living like a 'high roller'. So no, I don't know for sure what his living arrangements are atm, but I haven't seen any evidence that he's better off now than he was when he was making 200k a year, living in Hawaii with a 'hot girlfriend'.

Second, one of the main charges AGAINST Snowden before was that he knew what he knew years earlier, but waited until after Obama was in office to do what he did. Would a man truly obsessed with celebrity have waited years to be a celebrity when he didn't have to? Occam's razor seems to say to me that he did what he said he did - waited in hopes that the President would rein in an agency wildly overreaching, then went public when even a Dem president failed to change things begun under Bush.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Fri Jun 27, 2014, 08:38 PM

2. As the limit of honesty -> 0

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Response to Xipe Totec (Reply #2)

Fri Jun 27, 2014, 09:35 PM

10. L'Hopital Rulez!!! nt

 

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #10)

Fri Jun 27, 2014, 10:03 PM

13. And Lorentz measures. nt

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Fri Jun 27, 2014, 08:39 PM

3. None of the above. Excluding Manny. nt

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Fri Jun 27, 2014, 08:42 PM

4. This a common notion in certain circles:

 

Government cannot be trusted......government is too big....government needs to slim down.....starve the untrustworthy government of tax funds....drown in bathtub.....etc....etc....etc.....

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Response to Cali_Democrat (Reply #4)

Fri Jun 27, 2014, 08:44 PM

5. I think government should be larger

 

Just not fighting a war against the 99% at the pleasure of the wealthiest

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #5)

Fri Jun 27, 2014, 09:54 PM

11. So you think the untrustworthy federal government should be larger? nt

 

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Response to Cali_Democrat (Reply #11)

Fri Jun 27, 2014, 09:57 PM

12. Larger *and* working for *us*

 

Ergo, it should become trustworthy, among other things.

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Response to Cali_Democrat (Reply #4)

Fri Jun 27, 2014, 09:00 PM

7. Government SHOULD not be trusted.

It is not our job to 'trust' government'. Which is why we have what sunshine laws that we do, and why we need even more. We pay for government, we should be free to know pretty much every boring detail of what is done by government in our names or under the assertion that it is being done 'for our good'.

Government should not be a 'black box' into which we pour money and trust.

And government entities need to be the right size for the tasks being performed. In the case of the VA, in the aftermath of a decade of war, that means much larger, obviously.

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Response to Cali_Democrat (Reply #4)

Fri Jun 27, 2014, 10:40 PM

16. Robert Reich spoke to this earlier ...

 

... know this populist discontent can be neutralized politically if Americans see the federal government as part of that same corrupt system, fundamentally dysfunctional, and incapable of working for the public good.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/101696370


Only he was talking about Republicans. Interesting intersection.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #16)

Fri Jun 27, 2014, 10:46 PM

17. No doubt about it

 

The goal is to paint the government as a sinister entity that cannot be trusted. This plays into the hands of conservatives.

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Response to Cali_Democrat (Reply #17)

Fri Jun 27, 2014, 10:58 PM

18. And that "party" that begins with an "L" ...

 

that people keep telling me don't exist on DU.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #18)

Fri Jun 27, 2014, 11:33 PM

22. Virtually every liberal agrees with Libertarians on some issues.

There is a good thread at

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5161256

where you can take a quiz to see how much of a Democrat/Green/Republican/Libertarian you are. Try it.

Attempting to paint DUers as Libertarians because of their position on this one issue shows a lack of understanding of the political spectrum.

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Response to BillZBubb (Reply #22)

Fri Jun 27, 2014, 11:45 PM

25. It's not their position on this one issue; but rather, ...

 

their complete lack of concern about other issues ... Issues that involve more than their personal interests.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #18)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 10:17 AM

40. Of course it exists here.

Plenty of people defend libertarian ideas, like toll booths on interstates, free trade agreements, education reform, etc.

You know, the meat and potatoes kind of stuff libertarians love to harp on about.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #16)

Fri Jun 27, 2014, 11:35 PM

23. Was he referring to known Libertarian Jimmy Carter?

 

America does not have a functioning democracy at this point in time."
- Jimmy Carter, 2013

Undermining trust in our government! Scoundrel!

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #23)

Fri Jun 27, 2014, 11:48 PM

26. There is a difference between democracy and government ...

 

but you know that, right?

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #26)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 12:02 AM

29. In this case, Carter was referring specifically to our government. nt

 

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #29)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 12:29 AM

32. No ...

 

he was referring to politics. But you know that, too.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #33)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 07:02 AM

36. The NSA matter is a political question ...

 

as opposed to the ability of government to provide services to the American people in a competent manner. Wait ... wasn't that what Reich was talking about ... the republicans (and apparently others) attempting to convince people that government can do no good for the American people?

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Fri Jun 27, 2014, 09:03 PM

8. The S&G Story: Year 2.

 

Some sitcoms should have never lived on after their pilot episode.

The only human beings one should trust are those you know personally. And even then...well...keep your eyes open.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Fri Jun 27, 2014, 09:15 PM

9. Well,when you put it *that* way!1 n/t

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Fri Jun 27, 2014, 11:00 PM

19. Does Greenwald being a "Zombie Vampire Libertarian" mean he can't be telling the truth?

 

I don't see a conflict there, myself.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #19)

Fri Jun 27, 2014, 11:24 PM

21. Just before he drinks your blood then eats your brains, and

 

unleashes Free Market Forces on you, he whispers...

"Ha-ha! The Swarm was right! I *am* a Libertarian! A Libertarian Zombie Vampire!!!" Which is the truth, of course.

Here's a pic of him about to sink his Libertarian Zombie Vampire fangs into dreaded Socialist Kshama Sawant:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5134508

Yum! Socialists are good eatin'!!!

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #21)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 12:09 AM

31. uh...they make such a lovely couple?

 

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Fri Jun 27, 2014, 11:23 PM

20. it is late and time to go to bed so this thread will now,..., die

 

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Fri Jun 27, 2014, 11:37 PM

24. With respect to government snooping, easy...

Snowden and Greenwald are far more honest. The government hasn't been able to disavow a single document they've released. But the government has in the past denied doing what the documents are showing they have done.

By any measure of honesty, this isn't even close.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Fri Jun 27, 2014, 11:56 PM

27. I don't care so much; I'm fighting the crazy teabaggers. We all

pick our fights. I don't have enough energy for both.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Fri Jun 27, 2014, 11:58 PM

28. Hard to say on that one. nt

 

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 12:08 AM

30. Hmm, nadin voted in your poll, despite having her 5th strike hours before you posted it.

 

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Response to Electric Monk (Reply #30)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 06:32 AM

35. DU polls are ouija boards for the departed? ;) nt

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Response to Electric Monk (Reply #30)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 10:24 AM

41. see this thread on the announcements page

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1013&pid=3332

Members whose transparency pages are showing will not be restricted in any other way. They can even still send alerts. But they cannot post and they cannot serve on juries.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 07:47 AM

39. The cream always rises to the top - that is why the smartest and most trustworthy people

always become leaders.

"If you criticize the government the terrorist have already won."

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