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Mon Jun 30, 2014, 09:34 PM

 

Gore not becoming President: whose fault?

Who do *you* think is most responsible for Gore not becoming President on 1/20/2001?
71 votes, 0 passes | Time left: Time expired
Ralph Nader
4 (6%)
George W. Bush
1 (1%)
Al Gore
9 (13%)
The Supreme Court
51 (72%)
Jeb Bush and his Florida cronies
1 (1%)
Not sure, but Nader wasn't the primary problem
2 (3%)
Other
3 (4%)
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Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

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Arrow 139 replies Author Time Post
Reply Gore not becoming President: whose fault? (Original post)
MannyGoldstein Jun 2014 OP
Boudica the Lyoness Jun 2014 #1
mainstreetonce Jun 2014 #4
Electric Monk Jun 2014 #19
Samantha Jun 2014 #30
Reter Jun 2014 #39
Samantha Jul 2014 #72
treestar Jul 2014 #97
HooptieWagon Jul 2014 #130
hrmjustin Jul 2014 #102
gordianot Jun 2014 #14
kelliekat44 Jul 2014 #86
treestar Jul 2014 #93
Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #2
Art_from_Ark Jun 2014 #17
Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #38
Art_from_Ark Jun 2014 #47
Gravitycollapse Jun 2014 #58
Art_from_Ark Jun 2014 #62
Gravitycollapse Jul 2014 #65
Art_from_Ark Jul 2014 #66
Cosmocat Jul 2014 #89
BainsBane Jun 2014 #3
JI7 Jun 2014 #5
onehandle Jun 2014 #6
ForgoTheConsequence Jun 2014 #11
kelliekat44 Jul 2014 #88
AgingAmerican Jun 2014 #24
onehandle Jun 2014 #25
AgingAmerican Jun 2014 #29
onehandle Jun 2014 #37
AgingAmerican Jun 2014 #40
Maedhros Jul 2014 #105
Jim Lane Jul 2014 #112
AgingAmerican Jul 2014 #118
Jim Lane Jul 2014 #119
AgingAmerican Jul 2014 #120
HooptieWagon Jul 2014 #133
Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jul 2014 #127
Samantha Jun 2014 #42
AgingAmerican Jun 2014 #44
winter is coming Jun 2014 #57
Agnosticsherbet Jun 2014 #7
winter is coming Jun 2014 #8
Electric Monk Jun 2014 #12
winter is coming Jun 2014 #16
Agnosticsherbet Jun 2014 #20
winter is coming Jun 2014 #23
Agnosticsherbet Jun 2014 #41
Uncle Joe Jun 2014 #9
Art_from_Ark Jun 2014 #27
Uncle Joe Jun 2014 #34
Punkingal Jul 2014 #90
winter is coming Jul 2014 #91
Uncle Joe Jul 2014 #94
LondonReign2 Jul 2014 #101
Uncle Joe Jul 2014 #103
Spider Jerusalem Jun 2014 #10
ForgoTheConsequence Jun 2014 #18
hrmjustin Jul 2014 #108
HooptieWagon Jul 2014 #134
hrmjustin Jul 2014 #135
Marie Marie Jun 2014 #13
Art_from_Ark Jun 2014 #28
Stargleamer Jun 2014 #14
winter is coming Jun 2014 #21
leftstreet Jun 2014 #22
BlueStreak Jun 2014 #54
LeftyMom Jun 2014 #26
Art_from_Ark Jun 2014 #55
LeftyMom Jun 2014 #56
Art_from_Ark Jun 2014 #59
LeftyMom Jun 2014 #63
Art_from_Ark Jul 2014 #64
JI7 Jul 2014 #69
moondust Jun 2014 #31
Rosa Luxemburg Jun 2014 #32
Mz Pip Jun 2014 #33
Maedhros Jul 2014 #107
G_j Jun 2014 #35
McCamy Taylor Jun 2014 #36
LWolf Jun 2014 #43
TheKentuckian Jun 2014 #45
morningfog Jun 2014 #46
Jim Lane Jul 2014 #113
morningfog Jul 2014 #116
Jim Lane Jul 2014 #117
morningfog Jul 2014 #121
reddread Jun 2014 #48
damnedifIknow Jun 2014 #49
whatchamacallit Jun 2014 #50
Tony_FLADEM Jun 2014 #51
Jenoch Jun 2014 #52
Warpy Jun 2014 #53
BillZBubb Jun 2014 #60
Tierra_y_Libertad Jun 2014 #61
Electric Monk Jul 2014 #67
pnwmom Jul 2014 #68
pansypoo53219 Jul 2014 #70
mattclearing Jul 2014 #71
beerandjesus Jul 2014 #73
lame54 Jul 2014 #74
Bluenorthwest Jul 2014 #75
unblock Jul 2014 #76
MannyGoldstein Jul 2014 #77
unblock Jul 2014 #80
Punkingal Jul 2014 #92
noiretextatique Jul 2014 #124
B Calm Jul 2014 #78
LonePirate Jul 2014 #79
B Calm Jul 2014 #82
LonePirate Jul 2014 #83
B Calm Jul 2014 #85
truth2power Jul 2014 #81
joeybee12 Jul 2014 #84
Aerows Jul 2014 #87
mia Jul 2014 #95
NM_Birder Jul 2014 #96
MisterP Jul 2014 #98
hrmjustin Jul 2014 #99
MineralMan Jul 2014 #100
KamaAina Jul 2014 #104
MannyGoldstein Jul 2014 #109
HangOnKids Jul 2014 #111
MannyGoldstein Jul 2014 #110
El Supremo Jul 2014 #106
bigtree Jul 2014 #114
Jim Lane Jul 2014 #115
Oakenshield Jul 2014 #122
noiretextatique Jul 2014 #123
yurbud Jul 2014 #125
kentuck Jul 2014 #126
yurbud Jul 2014 #128
RandySF Jul 2014 #129
lumberjack_jeff Jul 2014 #131
HooptieWagon Jul 2014 #132
joshcryer Jul 2014 #136
socialist_n_TN Jul 2014 #137
joshcryer Jul 2014 #138
socialist_n_TN Jul 2014 #139

Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 09:37 PM

1. It was actually more than one thing

 

Supreme court
Bush
Nadar
Fixed ballot boxes

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Response to Boudica the Lyoness (Reply #1)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 09:42 PM

4. The Supreme Court

Florida's mess.

Court never should touched it.

Florida would have given it to Bush anyway.

Gore lost Tennessee. Blame the NRA.

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Response to mainstreetonce (Reply #4)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 09:52 PM

19. Yes, if Al Gore had won his home state of Tennessee, Florida wouldn't have mattered.

 

[font size=+1][center]For want of a nail the shoe was lost.
For want of a shoe the horse was lost.
For want of a horse the rider was lost.
For want of a rider the battle was lost.
For want of a battle the kingdom was lost.
And all for the want of a horseshoe nail.[/center][/font]

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Response to Electric Monk (Reply #19)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 10:05 PM

30. Tennessee was a little Florida when it came to vote fraud

Karl Rove had planned to make sure Gore lost Tennessee as an acute national embarrassment. That vote was pretty close, as I remember, but there were many complaints from voters on election day who experienced the same type of problems as voters in Florida. Three of the complaints were eventually picked up and pursued by Uncle Sam (DOJ) along with about 18 cases from Florida.

The one case I distinctly remember was an African-American minister who reached the front of the line and was told he did not have the proper id. He had voted for years with no problem. He angrily responded that if he was not allowed to vote, he was not moving from the line and would be calling a lawyer on the spot. They allowed him to complete a provisional ballot.

But many African-Americans complained about having to stand in line way too long, having too few voting machines, voting places moved at the last moment without public announcement - you know the drill.

We will never know who truly won Tennessee had all of the votes genuinely been allowed to be cast, just as some people say we will never know who truly won Florida. I take exception to that second part of the sentence - I think there is no question Gore won Florida, and there is additionally no question the final word on the subject rested with the highest court in Florida, not the Supreme Court.

Sam

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Response to Samantha (Reply #30)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 10:11 PM

39. I don't believe voter fraud was to blame for Gore losing TN

 

I also don't think Rove had the power to just steal states like it was nothing. Florida was unique. I believe Rove and Bush thought they had it in the bag, but once the election was over, they did everything in their power to stop recounting.

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Response to Reter (Reply #39)

Tue Jul 1, 2014, 09:27 AM

72. Well, we will just have to disagree over this

It is quite possible that it did. I am from Tennessee and I followed the election there closely, as well as the followup examination of voter complaints. As I said before, many of the techniques used in Florida were replicated in Tennessee. And the DOJ thought 3 of them were serious enough to investigate. It was indeed a mini-Florida.

Sam

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Response to Electric Monk (Reply #19)

Wed Jul 2, 2014, 12:49 PM

97. Why would he win that state?

It is red as red can be.

State pride is a thing of the past. I seriously don't see expecting candidates to carry a state just because they are from there.

The benefit to that is small states can have candidates for President or VP. They wouldn't have picked Biden or Palin if winning the home state was a big deal. They'd always pick someone from a high vote state.

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Response to treestar (Reply #97)

Sat Jul 5, 2014, 04:05 PM

130. Maybe because they elected him Senator earlier?

 

It seems to me he should have been able to repeat a state-wide election win in his home state, had he run a better campaign.

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Response to mainstreetonce (Reply #4)

Wed Jul 2, 2014, 03:48 PM

102. If nader didn't run Gore could have spent more time in TN instead of NM, WI, IA, and OR.

 

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Response to Boudica the Lyoness (Reply #1)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 09:50 PM

14. Yes many factors, along with distorted media.

The Neocon hiding in plain sight was probably also a factor.

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Response to gordianot (Reply #14)

Wed Jul 2, 2014, 10:45 AM

86. Actually, the NRA via: W.VA and TN. nt

 

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Response to Boudica the Lyoness (Reply #1)

Wed Jul 2, 2014, 11:00 AM

93. Yes, perfect storm

of factors going together.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 09:39 PM

2. The American Electorate.

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Response to Gravitycollapse (Reply #2)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 09:52 PM

17. The American electorate voted for Gore

Gore: 50,999,897
bu$h: 50,456,002

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Response to Art_from_Ark (Reply #17)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 10:10 PM

38. No, they did not. Between 40 and 45% of the electorate didn't vote at all.

As an homogenous chunk, those who didn't vote vastly outnumbered any candidate.

It's not even comparable. The number of persons who didn't vote outnumbered the number of those who voted for Nader by as high as 31 to 1.

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Response to Gravitycollapse (Reply #38)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 11:06 PM

47. Yes they did

The popular vote total was in Gore's favor. What matters in all US elections, except presidential, is who wins the popular vote, not how many qualified voters voted. The people who were concerned enough to vote, wanted Gore.

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Response to Art_from_Ark (Reply #47)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 11:45 PM

58. So the only people concerned enough to vote voted for Gore?

All other voters were unconcerned? That's an amazingly ignorant dismissal of political opposition.

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Response to Gravitycollapse (Reply #58)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 11:49 PM

62. By your criteria, no president has ever won an election

because no candidate has ever received a majority of the *potential* vote

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Response to Art_from_Ark (Reply #62)

Tue Jul 1, 2014, 12:02 AM

65. I suggested no such thing. I did say the electorate did not vote for Gore...

Which is a statement of fact. A large majority of the electorate did not vote for Gore even though he did win the popular vote.

You will realize that fundamentally the argument that Nader was responsible for Gore's loss is the same as the argument that the non-voters were responsible for Gore's loss. If you accept the logic of the former you must necessarily accept the logic of the latter. Which is to say that those who did not vote for Gore are responsible for his loss. Of course, I think this is probably a reasonably sound claim.

Which is why I think that if we were to stratify those who did not vote for Gore as an explanation for their inaction, the strata with the largest size would shoulder the most blame.

In order, from most to least responsible, those would be non-voters, those who voted for Bush and, in a hugely distant third, those who voted for Nader.

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Response to Gravitycollapse (Reply #65)

Tue Jul 1, 2014, 12:25 AM

66. Put it this way-- the Americans who cast their votes in November 2000 preferred Gore

Thousands more voters were capriciously knocked off the voter rolls in Florida (and other states) before the election.
http://www.gregpalast.com/the-great-florida-ex-con-gamernhow-the-felon-voter-purge-was-itself-felonious/

Thousands more were denied the right to vote on that day merely because the polls closed or because they were purposely detained, before they had a chance to vote.

http://www.michaelparenti.org/stolenelections.html

And still others like me, who voted absentee from overseas, maybe didn't even get to have their votes counted. For example, the last ballot I mailed, which was sent by registered mail, somehow didn't make it to the county clerk's office after it arrived in the US.

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Response to Gravitycollapse (Reply #2)

Wed Jul 2, 2014, 10:47 AM

89. WINNER!

Every dumb ass who voted for Jr. and every dumb ass who didn't bother to vote.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 09:41 PM

3. It was the butterfly ballot

If the Palm Beach County ballot had been normal, thousands of votes from retirees would have gone to Gore, as they were intended, rather than Buchanan. Then we would have never had that nutty recount or a case in the Supreme Court.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 09:42 PM

5. Many things were to blame and fuck those who try to defend any of them

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 09:42 PM

6. Multiple, but Nader was a key. Without Nader, Gore wins.

He was one of four participants in a perfect storm. Period.

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Response to onehandle (Reply #6)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 09:49 PM

11. Gore did win.

He could have won more I guess.... But that's pretty low standard.

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Response to ForgoTheConsequence (Reply #11)

Wed Jul 2, 2014, 10:46 AM

88. BINGO!!! SCOTUS...to blame for stopping the recount. nt

 

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Response to onehandle (Reply #6)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 09:57 PM

24. Assuming Nader voters were Democrats

 

...which they were not. By a huge margin, the people who voted for Nader were not ex-Democrats, but ex-Reform Party voters who supported Ross Perot. These people vote third party or stay at home, won’t vote for a D or R regardless, and are conservatives not liberals.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #24)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 10:00 PM

25. One half of one percent of them could have prevented Bush.

Nader campaigned for Weeks in Florida.

Nader and Bush are Exactly the Same.

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Response to onehandle (Reply #25)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 10:05 PM

29. Nader got 1% of Republican vote

 

...and 1% of the Democratic vote. Thus he had zero effect on the outcome. Had Al Gore fought and had a full recount, he would have won. Instead he folded because Republicans were saying stupid, mean stuff about him. Of course that's all they ever do, but for some reason Gore folded like a two year old attempting origami.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #29)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 10:08 PM

37. LOL!

Yeah. Nader had Equal appeal to Democrats and Republicans.

Hilarious.

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Response to onehandle (Reply #37)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 10:17 PM

40. 1% is almost ZERO appeal

 

1% barely counts as fringe. Exit polls don't lie, though they do blow your narrative to smithereens.

13 percent of registered Democrats voted for Bush in Florida in that election, BTW.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #40)

Wed Jul 2, 2014, 03:53 PM

105. Oh, AgingAmerican!

 

Facts can be used to prove anything that's even remotely true!

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #40)

Wed Jul 2, 2014, 10:03 PM

112. Your reliance on party registration is ludicrous.

 

The obvious question is: "If Nader had not been on the ballot, what would the people who actually voted for him have done instead?"

The three relevant categories of answers are: (1) voted for Bush; (2) voted for Gore; or (3) deprived of the opportunity to vote for Nader, found some other way to make themselves politically irrelevant.

We can ignore the last group. The issue is the comparative size of the first two groups. Every bit of data I've ever seen, including some from Nader himself IIRC, states that Group 2 would greatly outnumber Group 1. The difference between the two numbers would have represented Gore's net gain. It would have swamped the official margin for Bush in Florida. Gore would have had a cheatproof margin of victory and would have become President.

If you think that Group 1 and Group 2 are equal in size, you'll have to present some pretty powerful data to make that sense -- much more powerful than party registration.

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Response to Jim Lane (Reply #112)

Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:00 AM

118. 13% of Democrats voted for Bush in Florida in 2000

 

nt

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #118)

Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:12 AM

119. So bleeping what?

 

I'm sure everyone here agrees that anyone who voted for Bush in Florida in 2000 (or in any state in any general election) made a mistake. I'm also sure that everyone here agrees that their mistake in no way excuses Katherine Harris's illegal purge of pro-Democratic voters.

You wrote in #29 that Nader "had zero effect on the outcome." Do you honestly believe that, if Nader had exercised his constitutional right to not run in the general election, the Gore-versus-Bush tally would have been unaffected? It depends on your assessment of the people who in the real world voted for Nader. Is it your position that, in a hypothetical scenario in which he's not on the ballot, the number of those people who would have voted for Gore would be roughly equal to the number who would have voted for Bush? If so, do I understand correctly that your sole basis for that position is party registration?

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Response to Jim Lane (Reply #119)

Thu Jul 3, 2014, 01:37 AM

120. Do the math

 

nt

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #118)

Sat Jul 5, 2014, 04:12 PM

133. True. Far more than voted for Nader.

 

Anyone pointing fingers at voters has to conclude conservative democrats voting Bush were to blame, not liberals.

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Response to Jim Lane (Reply #112)

Sat Jul 5, 2014, 02:59 PM

127. Heh.

Given that we never saw President Gore, by your logic, anyone who didn't vote for Bush, including Gore voters, 'found a way to make themselves politically irrelevant'. Just like those who voted for Dewey, Kerry, or anyone else who failed to become President.

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #29)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 10:19 PM

42. No, he folded because he didn't want to see an open revolution in the Country

He thought that was the best thing to do for the Country, and additionally the Democrats failed to back him up except for a couple who weakly spoke out while the recount was being conducted (and the Congressional Black Caucus who protested on the date the Electoral College met to count the votes).

While we did not have an open revolution, what we did get was this: a man who sat in the Oval Office for 8 years and destroyed our economy, our Country's reputation, a terrorist attack on our Country 9/11 that Bush* failed to thwart, a huge deficit which accumulated and was hidden from the public eye since the figures were kept off the general ledger (Enron-type accounting), and the lives of thousands of innocent civilians who had misfortune to live in Iraq. The damages done by Bush*, including appointing Roberts to be the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, will continue to have rippling deleterious impact on this Country for decades to come. And many of those damages can NEVER be made whole again.

Sam

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Response to Samantha (Reply #42)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 10:20 PM

44. Yeah, right

 

Republicans jumping up and down crying = revolution. If that were the case there would have been a revolution during the 90s when they were up in arms saying stupid stuff the whole decade.

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Response to Samantha (Reply #42)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 11:44 PM

57. Open revolution, my ass. There was never any real chance of that.

I saw more of that clusterfuck unfolding on TV than I care to remember. The pundits were flapping their arms about a "Constitutional crisis" while ordinary people were going about their business and assuming it would all get straightened out sooner or later.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 09:44 PM

7. There was no single culprit.

SCOTUS, Republicans rioting to stop the recount, A Florida ballot deisgend to confuse, Nader'd claim that there is no difference between the parties, and so many more. electoral college, etc., etc,.

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Response to Agnosticsherbet (Reply #7)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 09:46 PM

8. You might want to edit your post. There's a part in the middle where you appear to be

speaking in tongues.

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Response to winter is coming (Reply #8)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 09:50 PM

12. Translating...... "rim c;ao,omg tjat tjere os mpt dofferemce betweem"

 

translation: "him saying that there's no difference between"

?

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Response to Electric Monk (Reply #12)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 09:51 PM

16. Thanks; that makes more sense. It was kind of like autocorrect on acid there for a while. n/t

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Response to Electric Monk (Reply #12)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 09:53 PM

20. yes sorry for the confusion. I'm posting from my hospital bed and my fingers no work so good.

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Response to Agnosticsherbet (Reply #20)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 09:56 PM

23. Oh! Sorry; I didn't realize you were in the hospital.

Hope things get better.

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Response to winter is coming (Reply #23)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 10:18 PM

41. Tomorrow or the day after, depending on the pain. Thanks.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 09:48 PM

9. I chose other because you didn't have the "corporate media" as a choice.

Had it not been for the corporate media's one sided coverage, literally giving Bush a free pass while slandering and libeling Al Gore relentessly, the Supreme Court would never had never had the opportunity.

Gore would've won in a landslide too large for the Republicans to steal.

Thanks for the thread, MannyGoldstein.

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Response to Uncle Joe (Reply #9)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 10:01 PM

27. Yeah, the corporate media certainly stunk to high heaven

And that includes everything from ramblings about "Clinton fatigue" to Maureen Dowd's Gore-bashing diatribes in the New York Times

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Response to Art_from_Ark (Reply #27)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 10:06 PM

34. "Al Gore claimed to have invented the Internet" Which I believe truly explains their vitriol toward

him.

The corporate media came to see the growing Internet as a threat against their business model, ability to use propaganda power unchecked and brainwash the masses and it threatened their commercial dollars.

That's why they relentlessly slandered and libeled Gore so much because he was the preeminent political champion for opening up the Internet to the people.

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Response to Uncle Joe (Reply #34)

Wed Jul 2, 2014, 10:51 AM

90. Al did NOT claim to invent the internet.

That is another slanderous lie told about him and you are on a website started because of the 2000 election debacle repeating it.

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Response to Punkingal (Reply #90)

Wed Jul 2, 2014, 10:57 AM

91. You should read the post you just replied to.

That's why they relentlessly slandered and libeled Gore so much because he was the preeminent political champion for opening up the Internet to the people.

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Response to Punkingal (Reply #90)

Wed Jul 2, 2014, 11:01 AM

94. Precisely, that's the point of my post. n/t

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Response to Uncle Joe (Reply #34)

Wed Jul 2, 2014, 03:35 PM

101. +1000

Corporate Whore Media kept it close enough for the Supreme Court to steal

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Response to LondonReign2 (Reply #101)

Wed Jul 2, 2014, 03:49 PM

103. Thanks, LondonReign, I view the corporate media as the

preeminent cause for the coup of 2000.

Had they been honest brokers instead of acting as an institution bent on giving Bush a free pass while slandering and libeling Al Gore, none of the rest would've mattered, Gore would've won in a landslide.

CNN held a poll as to the most revolutionary invention or creation of the 20th century and the Internet won hands down, despite this, the corporate media as an institution could never bring themselves to give actually give Gore credit for his visionary legislation in opening the Information Superhighway to the people.

All they could do was ridicule him, and I have no doubt it was because they saw the growing Internet as a potential threat to their propaganda power and commercial cash cow, so they didn't want the strongest political champion of the Internet in the White House.

The Internet has been under attack by them ever since, specifically in trying to eliminate Net Neutrality while turning the net in to the equivalent of cable television.

Whatever it takes to keep the American People under their thumb.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 09:49 PM

10. Not Nader's fault.

 

Blaming Nader is sour grapes, and fundamentally wrong anyway as it presumes that Nader voters would have instead voted for Gore (rather than not voting at all, or voting for some other third-party candidate), which is not a reasonable supposition.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #10)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 09:52 PM

18. You're right.

It's not a reasonable supposition. But it's easier than growing a spine and blaming Bush and the Supreme Court.


The blaming Nader argument is hilarious.

A) Without Nader, Gore would have won.

B) Gore did win.

A) But he would have won more.....


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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #10)

Wed Jul 2, 2014, 04:06 PM

108. I think a reasonable case could be made Gore would have won NM, WI, IA, and OR by bigger margins

 

without Nader in the race. He could have spent more time on other states. FL and NH could have gone to Gore without Nader.


Nader had a part in the loss.

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #108)

Sat Jul 5, 2014, 04:16 PM

134. FAR more Dems voted for Bush than Nader.

 

It was conservative Dems voting Bush that cost the election for Gore, not Liberals voting Nader.

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Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #134)

Sat Jul 5, 2014, 04:22 PM

135. And republicans voted for Gore. This is normal and happens every election.

 

People never change their registration.

Nader was a contributing factor to the loss.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 09:50 PM

13. I voted Supreme Court but let us not forget that freak of nature,

Katherine Harris. She was as vile as Michelle Bachmann and Sarah Palin.

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Response to Marie Marie (Reply #13)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 10:04 PM

28. She was the bu$h campaign's co-chair in Florida

and she was in charge of counting the Florida votes.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 09:50 PM

14. It was a number of things. . .

not just one thing. I voted for the USSC, because it was more of a factor than the other reasons. Thomas and Scalia should have recused themselves, but that would require having a conscience, which they do not.

One other thing, is that we have an Electoral College System, which fundamentally goes against the fair principle of "One person, One vote".

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Response to Stargleamer (Reply #14)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 09:53 PM

21. +1. n/t

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 09:55 PM

22. Al Gore. Shitty campaign n/t

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Response to leftstreet (Reply #22)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 11:35 PM

54. Al Gore, decided to play lap dog

 

or if a person wants to take a more cynical view, they could observe how much money he was able to make after lying down and rolling over for the plutocrats.

This site pegs his wealth at about $200M
http://www.businessinsider.com/al-gore-wealth-money-current-sale-al-jazeera-2013-5

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 10:01 PM

26. I'm amazed that nobody's clicked "Gore" yet. He wasn't a good campaigner.

He ran away from a popular incumbent. He lost his own damn state. When he was pandering (PDAs with Tipper, pounding talking points into the ground) it was very obvious and awkward.

He can be personable. We're talking about a guy who managed to get people to pay good money for a movie that was essentially him giving a powerpoint presentation. But in 2000 he was very carefully saying very little, and not managing Bill Clinton's amazing skill at saying very little with great charm and charisma.

Gore was running against an Epsilon Minus Semi-Moron, it should not have been close enough to lose, spoil or steal.

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Response to LeftyMom (Reply #26)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 11:37 PM

55. He ran away from a "popular incumbent"

because he was tired of being tarred with the Lewinsky mess and "Clinton fatigue".

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/clinton-fatigue-hurting-gore/

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Response to Art_from_Ark (Reply #55)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 11:40 PM

56. That was stupid at the time and still seems stupid in retrospect.

Gore had nothing to do with Clinton being a horndog and nobody sane connected the two. Further people were tired of the scandal, not of Clinton.

Gore should have run on the Clinton economy. Instead he ran defensively and we all know how well that worked.

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Response to LeftyMom (Reply #56)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 11:46 PM

59. Gore won the popular vote

He "lost" a key state that was controlled by the brother of his opponent, and where the votes were being "counted" by his opponent's campaign co-chair.

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Response to Art_from_Ark (Reply #59)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 11:53 PM

63. The economy was flying. It shouldn't have been close enough to steal, lose or fuck up in any way.

FL wouldn't have mattered if Gore had won TN.

Need I remind you that Bush was a fucking idiot? Go watch a video of any of his speeches if you've blocked that out. He was a complete moron. It should not have been close.

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Response to LeftyMom (Reply #63)

Tue Jul 1, 2014, 12:00 AM

64. Reagan was a moron, too

Last edited Tue Jul 1, 2014, 12:55 AM - Edit history (1)

Moron candidates have attracted voters for a long time, as evidenced by H.L. Mencken's musings in the 1920s, and Adlai Stevenson's famous reply in the 1950s to the comment that he had "every thinking person's vote": "Ma'am, I'll need more than that to win".

And before the 2000 election, the economy was starting to slow down as the tech stock bubble was beginning to burst.

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Response to LeftyMom (Reply #63)

Tue Jul 1, 2014, 12:42 AM

69. Bush being a fucking idiot was seen as a positive at that time

remember the crap about voting for "someone like me". and gore was seen as elitist . one lady said she was offended by gore's knowledge.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 10:05 PM

31. Voters?

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 10:06 PM

32. I didn't mean to vote three times for the Supreme Court

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 10:06 PM

33. The voters

This shouldn't have even been close. Yeah, Nader got 90,000 votes in Florida but I suspect there were 90,000 people who didn't bother to vote and not just in Florida. What was the turnout in 2000?

I don't blame Nader. I blame the people who through their vote away on a candidate who had no chance in hell of being elected. Elections have consequences. Don't throw your vote away.

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Response to Mz Pip (Reply #33)

Wed Jul 2, 2014, 03:59 PM

107. Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone,

 

and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost."

John Quincy Adams

em.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 10:08 PM

35. 1, 2 & 3

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 10:08 PM

36. Supreme Court because they are supposed to uphold the law. Brother Jeb second

along with SOS What's her name for disenfranchising Blacks. Nader third for being math challenged ("Hey, Gore's gotta win no matter what I do." Gore fourth for not letting Bill campaign for him----pride goeth before the fall, Big Guy. You let your ego get in the way of your service to your country. Hillary will not make that mistake.

I was in DC Jan 2001. There were more people there to witness the "Inauguration of the Fraudulent" than to celebrate. It was a very sad day.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 10:20 PM

43. 4 and 5. nt

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 10:39 PM

45. USSC, BushCo. cronies, conservative Democrats, Gore, yellow, mealy mouth Democrats in that order.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 10:40 PM

46. If you blame Nader, you legitmize Bush.

 

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Response to morningfog (Reply #46)

Wed Jul 2, 2014, 10:23 PM

113. Would you extend that principle?

 

I wonder which of the following statements you'd agree with:

"If you blame Gore for picking Lieberman, you legitimize Bush."
"If you blame Gore for being a bad campaigner, you legitimize Bush."
"If you blame Gore for losing his home state, you legitimize Bush."
"If you blame Gore for not using Clinton more in the campaign, you legitimize Bush."

The reason I ask is that there's a pronounced double standard going on. People quite freely criticize Gore for choices he made. When someone criticizes Nader for the key choice he made, however, suddenly that line of argument is inadmissible. Nader critics are accused (falsely) of contending that Nader didn't have the right to run, or, as in your post, are accused of legitimizing Bush, by pointing to some factor other than the illegalities. Gore, by contrast, seems to be a free-fire zone -- people who criticize Gore for, e.g., picking Lieberman are never accused of arguing that Gore didn't have the legal right to pick Lieberman, nor are they ever accused of legitimizing Bush. That argument is trotted out only in defense of Nader.

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Response to Jim Lane (Reply #113)

Wed Jul 2, 2014, 10:55 PM

116. All of those things are irrelevant when the critical point is aknowledged: Gore won.

 

Gore rightfully won the popular vote. Gore rightfully won the electoral vote. Gore rightfully won the 2000 election.

There were hundreds of thousands of variables that could have widened Gore's margins or legitimately flipped the election. None of those actually matter, because Gore actually won.

For example, the butterfly ballots in Palm Beach County gave Buchanan an inordinate number of votes that clearly were meant to be for Gore. Nobody blames that, which is much more problematic to democracy than a third party candidate running a legal campaign.

I have no problem with conceding that Gore ran a poor campaign. I have a big problem when anyone suggests that the theft of a United States Presidency was due in part to the legal exercise of democracy. It is about focusing on the illegality that occurred.

I was and am a Gore supporter. I voted for Gore. He won, Bush stole it with held from his co-conspirators, Harris and five justices. It is that simple. Nader was not a spoiler, because Gore didn't actually lose.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #116)

Wed Jul 2, 2014, 11:42 PM

117. I try to pre-empt the "but Gore won!" response

 

I don't think I've said (at least not recently) that Nader was partly responsible for Bush winning. What I've said is that Nader was partly responsible for Bush becoming President.

Frankly, it seems sterile to me to say "Gore won" because it depends on a dodgy definition. I see no benefit in debating whether "won" means "became President" or "rightfully won". Instead, I state the undeniable fact -- Bush became President. That still leaves me perfectly free to criticize Harris and Nader and the butterfly ballot and SCOTUS and anyone else.

Why I blame Nader (among others): Nader had a right to decide to run and a right to decide not to run. He chose to exercise his undisputed right to run. It was foreseeable that that decision would help Bush and might even result in his election. What in fact happened was that Nader's decision was (in legal terms) a but-for cause of the Bush presidency, because if Nader had instead exercised his right to not run, Gore would have become President.

Nothing in the foregoing paragraph requires me to approve of Harris's purge or anything else. An event can have more than one cause. And I continue to maintain that plenty of DUers understand this principle when they're criticizing Gore about something, but suddenly abandon it when the issue is criticism of Nader. That's a double standard and is intellectually dishonest.

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Response to Jim Lane (Reply #117)

Thu Jul 3, 2014, 05:54 AM

121. I don't think I can say but-for Nader, Gore would have won.

 

First, Gore recieves more votes. Despite that fact, Bush stole the presidency and became president. I'm not confident that what happened in Florida was simply spontaneous and opportunistic or if bush was going to do whatever it takes, and the scenario that played out was the FL debacle.

If bush had rightfully won, I would agree that Nader was, one of many causes. But he he didn't. The blocked recount was an intervening, and illegal, cause. In the legal sense, the causation rests with Harris and the justices. They are solely liable.

A criminal act broke the chain of events. All the preceding legal acts are irrelevant of the causation. People are free to dislike Nader for his decision and his comments, and if bush were legitimately elected, he would share the blame for the aftermath.

But, the presidency was stolen and that is all that matters. To focus on Nader now does two things I disagree with. One, it legitimizes theft of elections. It suggests that if the margins are close enough, we must accept stolen elections in our system. Second, it discourages democracy and supports the duopoly.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 11:09 PM

48. the American sheeple

 

who quietly allowed justice to wither and die in a few short weeks.
And it will never come back.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 11:14 PM

49. Gore may not have became president but he did win

The myth that Bush would have won had the recount proceeded dates back to a recount conducted by a consortium of newspapers that examined the ballots. The consortium found that “If all the ballots had been reviewed under any of seven single standards, and combined with the results of an examination of overvotes, Mr. Gore would have won"

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2012/06/yes-bush-v-gore-did-steal-the-election.html

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 11:15 PM

50. Fuck Ralph Nader

Last edited Thu Jul 3, 2014, 03:40 PM - Edit history (1)

and Edward Snowden and Glenn Greenwald and Julian Assange and Chelsea Manning and Ratfuckers... Fuck everyone who have nothing to do with our real problems!

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 11:21 PM

51. Katharine Harris and Jeb Bush paying Diebold $4 million to cleanse the voter rolls of minorties

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 11:22 PM

52. If Democrats keep focusing on the past

 

we won't keep the senate and will also lose the Whitehouse.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 11:24 PM

53. Jeb Bush, who refused a state wide recount

which led to the Felonious Five appointing Stupid our pResident.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 11:47 PM

60. In the end, it was Gore's fault

He ran a terrible campaign. He ran away from Clinton and failed to use him in key states. Gore failed to work his home state and lost it. Gore simply wasn't a good campaigner.

That being said, Nader and those naïve enough to vote for him inflicted permanent damage on the United States by enabling bush to steal the White House.

The Democrats didn't have a strong candidate, so any third party that siphoned off potential Democratic votes was going to be fatal. Nader knew that, but went ahead anyway. Gore gets the loss, bush gets the win and Nader gets the assist.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 11:48 PM

61. It's the politicians job to convince voters to vote for him/her.

 

Gore went after the "moderate" voters and ignored the left. He didn't convince enough moderates or the left.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Tue Jul 1, 2014, 12:38 AM

67. After re-watching George Carlin: Jammin' in New York, I wonder if he voted Nader in 2000?

 

and this was from his 1992 Jammin' In New York show.

1992

Watch the whole thing if you have a few minutes, or if you're in a hurry you can jump to 4:51

4:51 "I love bad news. I love bad news. Hey! The more bad news there is, the faster this system collapses. Fine by me. Fine by me. Don't bother my ass. Don't bother my ass none. I'm glad the water sucks. I'm glad it sucks. You know what I do about it? I drink it."




R.I.P.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Tue Jul 1, 2014, 12:41 AM

68. While other people had an effect, Nader was the single progressive with the greatest

impact on tossing the win to Bush. No other progressive, other than Gore, controlled 95,000 votes.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Tue Jul 1, 2014, 03:42 AM

70. i blame bill bradley. the gnewz media, AND nader.

and gore for picking lieberfuckenputz.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Tue Jul 1, 2014, 04:34 AM

71. It was Bush.

They stole Florida. The Court was wrong, but Jeb Bush and Katherine Harris rigged the state with voter purges and Gore still carried it.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Wed Jul 2, 2014, 08:29 AM

73. Am I the only person on this forum who remembers the PMRC?

Because I guaran-fucking-tee, among people of my generation, the PMRC cost Gore far more votes than Nader.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Wed Jul 2, 2014, 08:36 AM

74. Where's Choicepoint?

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Wed Jul 2, 2014, 08:47 AM

75. SCOTUS and all the Republican voters who stacked that court.

 

Also the US Senate Democrats who refused to stand with the Black Caucus and continue the recount. Biden. Clinton. The lot of them. Not one Senator would stand. Not one.
Among our potential candidates for President we have one who voted for all the Republicans who appointed those nuts, another who refused to count the votes then swiftly voted for war while they all worried about flag burning and the threat of gay marriages. What a crappy history they have.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Wed Jul 2, 2014, 09:14 AM

76. how about the damn media? ragging on gore's sighs and sweaters and supposed "lies"?

when al gore was pushing every federal agency to pour loads of immensely important information onto the "information superhighway", the press laughed at him.

this was the single most effective contribution to making the internet as popular and useful as it is today (well, after porn, of course).


then, when gore touted his achievement, they twisted his words and meaning to make it sound like he was claiming to have been the engineers behind the technical invention of the internet. the press covered the "lie" relentlessly, and virtually never acknowledged what a huge contribution gore made to building the internet.


the media has become hugely right-wing and odious, and that almost seems normal now. but their behavior in the election of 2000 was abominable.

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Response to unblock (Reply #76)

Wed Jul 2, 2014, 09:22 AM

77. That's a good point

 

They certainly tended to go after Gore, not Bush.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #77)

Wed Jul 2, 2014, 09:39 AM

80. oh, they were so tough on shrub. the teetotaler you'd love to have a beer with!

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Response to unblock (Reply #76)

Wed Jul 2, 2014, 11:00 AM

92. Thank you!

eom

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Response to unblock (Reply #76)

Sat Jul 5, 2014, 02:54 PM

124. the media was complicit

In the judicial coup.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Wed Jul 2, 2014, 09:23 AM

78. Seeing how Gore really won Florida, the Supreme Court is the only logical answer!

 

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Wed Jul 2, 2014, 09:30 AM

79. I blame the Democratic reviewers who approved the wonky design of the Palm Beach ballot

Listing Gore in the second position on the left but associating him with the third hole punch cost him at least 25,000 or more of the 30,000 votes Pat Buchanan received in that county alone. There are no controversies or court cases if Democratic reviewers had objected to that awful ballot design.

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Response to LonePirate (Reply #79)

Wed Jul 2, 2014, 10:32 AM

82. but even with all the dirty shenanigans that went on in Florida, Gore still had more votes.

 

So SC overturning the election is the one to point your finger at.

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Response to B Calm (Reply #82)

Wed Jul 2, 2014, 10:41 AM

83. The SC would never had intervened as there would have been no month long recount

If that ballot had Gore's name and hole punch on the same line, there would have been no Supreme Court case. Any recount would have been completed, had one even occurred if Gore had led by 25,000 after the election.

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Response to LonePirate (Reply #83)

Wed Jul 2, 2014, 10:45 AM

85. There are a lot of different angles and reasons to blame, but

 

it still all comes down to the Supreme Court deciding the election.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Wed Jul 2, 2014, 10:00 AM

81. Supreme Court. It was not Nader...

Chris Hedges explained it clearly in his book, "The Death of the Liberal Class".

I will have to, fercrissakes, re-borrow that book from the public library and copy those paragraphs from the book so I can have it available when people say it was all Nader's fault.

Of course that would ensure that Hedges gets stuffed under the bus, here. Unless he's there already; I can't keep up.

> > > >

Oh, and every time someone mentions Ralph Nader I can't help but think of the two little girls in my neighborhood, the same ages as my children, who were killed in a horrible auto accident at a nearby intersection, many years ago. Thrown from the car.

Buried in their Easter dresses, they were.

That was before seat-belts. Yeah.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Wed Jul 2, 2014, 10:43 AM

84. You should have also included the spinless Dems in Congress as an option...nt

 

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Wed Jul 2, 2014, 10:46 AM

87. Florida cronies

 

all the way.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Wed Jul 2, 2014, 11:37 AM

95. Diebold Indicted: Its spectre still haunts Ohio elections

http://freepress.org/article/diebold-indicted-its-spectre-still-haunts-ohio-elections-0

October 31, 2013

Diebold: the controversial manufacturer of voting and ATM machines, whose name conjures up the demons of Ohio’s 2004 presidential election irregularities, is now finally under indictment for a “worldwide pattern of criminal conduct.” Federal prosecutors filed charges against Diebold, Inc. on Tuesday, October 22, 2013 alleging that the North Canton, Ohio-based security and manufacturing company bribed government officials and falsified documents to obtain business in China, Indonesia and Russia....

This is not the first time Diebold’s been accused of bribery. In 2005, the Free Press exposed that Matt Damschroder, Republican chair of the Franklin County of Elections in 2004, reported that a key Diebold operative told Damschroder he made a $50,000 contribution to then-Ohio Secretary of State J. Kenneth Blackwell's “political interests” while Blackwell was evaluating Diebold's bids for state purchasing contracts. Damschroder admitted to personally accepting a $10,000 check from former Diebold contractor Pasquale “Patsy” Gallina made out to the Franklin County Republican Party. That contribution was made while Damschroder was involved in evaluating Diebold bids for county contracts. Damschroder was suspended for a month without pay for the incident. Despite the scandal, he was later appointed as Ohio Secretary of State Jon Husted's Director of Elections.

Diebold was at the center of Ohio’s 2004 election debacle, much of this captured in an article by Free Press Senior Editor Harvey Wasserman and this author, entitled, “Diebold’s Political Machine.” Walden "Wally" O'Dell, chairman of the board and chief executive of Diebold, was a long-time funder of Republican candidates. In September 2003, he held a packed $1,000-per-head GOP fundraiser at his 10,800-square-foot mansion Cotswold Manor in Upper Arlington, Ohio. He was feted as a guest at then-President George W. Bush's Texas ranch, joining a cadre of “Pioneers and Rangers” who pledged to raise more than $100,000 for the Bush reelection campaign.


Most memorably, in 2003 O'Dell penned a letter pledging his commitment “to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the President.” O'Dell defended his actions, telling the Cleveland Plain Dealer “I'm not doing anything wrong or complicated.” But he also promised to lower his political profile and “try to be more sensitive.” But the Diebold boss' partisan cards were squarely on the table.....


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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Wed Jul 2, 2014, 11:56 AM

96. climate change ?

 

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Wed Jul 2, 2014, 03:15 PM

98. Jeb and Harris--but the people blaming Nader KNOW that, as much as Rummy and Cheneybeast

knew Iraq didn't "do" 9-11

the only analogous situation I can think of is if half the people on the internet insisted the Egyptian pharaohs were all in the 9th c. AD, or believed Giordano Bruno was a science martyr

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Wed Jul 2, 2014, 03:20 PM

99. Nader , theft, and the Gore campaign.

 

Nader took more votes from Gore. If he didn't run Gore would not have had to spend as much time in NM, OR, WI, and IA. With that extra time he could have spent more time in other states. Nader cost gore NH and FL plain and simple. Nader deserves a large amount of the blame.


Theft is a big part and the Gore Campaign was not run well.



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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Wed Jul 2, 2014, 03:32 PM

100. It was your fault, Manny.

Just as it will be your fault if a Republican becomes President in 2016. It will be the fault of all of those who discouraged voting and reduced turnout. And that's the bottom line, really. If every Democrat actually went to the polls, there would be no question about the results. If someone discourages voters from participating or convinces them to vote for third parties, we all lose.

It is that simple, my friend.

GOTV 2014 and Beyond!

Election Activism-way MineralManny

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #100)

Wed Jul 2, 2014, 03:49 PM

104. When did the OP ever do that?

 

If someone discourages voters from participating or convinces them to vote for third parties, we all lose.


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Response to KamaAina (Reply #104)

Wed Jul 2, 2014, 04:31 PM

109. It's obvious to anyone who *really* pays attention

 

What, you can't see the Emperor's new clothes?

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #109)

Wed Jul 2, 2014, 05:31 PM

111. The Mineral Manny sig is creepy

 

But hey you know he is always right!

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Wed Jul 2, 2014, 03:58 PM

106. Sandra Day O'Connor in particular

She regretted her vote later.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Wed Jul 2, 2014, 10:32 PM

114. chad, nader, then Peggy Noonan and Tweety

. . . for going on and on about the sighing during the debate.

Oh, yeah, then nader again, just because chad.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Wed Jul 2, 2014, 10:35 PM

115. I refused to select because trying to name one is comparing apples and oranges.

 

Katherine Harris's ballot purge was illegal. Nader's decision to run was legal but stupid. The SCOTUS decision was in between -- the Court has the legal power to resolve appeals but is supposed to resolve them on the basis of the law, not politics. Its decision was a dereliction of duty but wasn't a clear-cut illegality the way Harris's purge was. As for Gore, how do you evaluate decisions when you have the benefit of hindsight, and he didn't? All the people screaming about the Lieberman pick should consider that maybe Lieberman on the ticket helped make Florida close in the first place.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Jul 3, 2014, 05:26 PM

122. Just so no one gets confused...

I do believe the Supreme Court is foremost to blame, but I voted for Gore instead...because it's bullshit Nader gets more blame than Gore's shitty campaign.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sat Jul 5, 2014, 02:53 PM

123. SCOTUS deserves ALL the blame

Eom

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sat Jul 5, 2014, 02:55 PM

125. You need a Jeb AND Supreme Court option

Jeb made it close enough for the Supreme Court to be in play.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sat Jul 5, 2014, 02:56 PM

126. It was my fault...

I take full responsibility.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sat Jul 5, 2014, 03:00 PM

128. three words tip it Jeb: FELON VOTER PURGE of 82,389 mostly black voters

oddly, those who like to blame Nader glide over this.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sat Jul 5, 2014, 03:52 PM

129. I will never forgive Nader

I'll never forget him going around the country and telling the press that W was too dumb to be a danger to the country.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sat Jul 5, 2014, 04:08 PM

131. Plenty of blame to go around.

 

but the court has the lions share.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sat Jul 5, 2014, 04:08 PM

132. Many reasons, but ultimately Al Gore.

 

Had he run a better campaign, none of the other shit mattered or would have happened.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sat Jul 5, 2014, 04:32 PM

136. Wow, more blame for Gore than Nader.

We are lost.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #136)

Sat Jul 5, 2014, 05:28 PM

137. Why is this a surprise? I expected this outcome....

DU, as a whole, is a WHOLE lot more to the left than the cheerleaders are. And EVERY POLL TAKEN PROVES IT!

There are several very prolific posters on here that are "centrist" or "conservative" Dems (?), but they are just noisy and prolific. They're not the majority of the posters on this site.

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Response to socialist_n_TN (Reply #137)

Sat Jul 5, 2014, 08:10 PM

138. DU was created due to Gore being sabotaged!

Those who place most of the blame on Gore are either ignorant or forgetful of the theft.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #138)

Sun Jul 6, 2014, 09:12 AM

139. Who's placing most of the blame on Gore? Not this poll......

This poll places the blame where it belongs, on the SCOTUS.

Actually as I recall, Gore DID deserve some blame by the type of campaign he ran. Not the majority blame just like Nader shouldn't get majority blame. But yes, Al Gore should get some blame.

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