"Men Are Second Class Citizens"

[Purveyor]

July 3, 2014 - 8:21AM
Monica Hesse

The Washington Post

The feminists hadn’t shown up yet, but they could, at any moment, with their protest signs and screaming. The threat of them was an infuriating and exhilarating spectre throughout the weekend, a symbol of the oppression facing the men’s rights activists who had gathered to meet for their inaugural conference.

Early Friday before the opening session, a wispy trail of men - mostly white, college-through-retirement-age - waited for the doors to open outside of this Veterans of Foreign Wars outpost in suburban Detroit. One man talked about his ex-wife. A lot of guys talked about their ex-wives. Ex-wives and ex-girlfriends were often cited as the catalysts to these men’s realisations that the world had become a hostile and dangerous place for males.

Such realisations are what activists sometimes call ‘‘red pill moments,’’ and although attendees coalesced around different issues - paternity fraud, circumcision, false rape allegations - the binding theme was that almost everyone here had experienced a version of a red pill moment.

In the months leading up to the International Conference on Men’s Issues, much of the rest of the country hunkered down on discussions of gender: a White House task force studied sexual assaults on college campuses. A shooter in Santa Barbara, California, killed two women and four men because, he said in a manifesto and video posted before his attack, he believed women had unjustly withheld affection from him. A #YesAllWomen campaign highlighted broader experiences of misogyny.
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At the ICMI, where about 200 participants had preordered tickets, there was a parallel discussion of gender issues: Men, attendees believed, were the ones under threat of attack. This conference was their response, their rallying call to action.

more...

http://www.dailylife.com.au/news-and-views/news-features/men-are-second-class-citizens-20140702-3b7x6.html

[Aerows]

1. "I can no longer control a particular woman's life"

"therefore my freedom is in danger."

That seems to be their whine.

[TheBlackAdder]

84. +1

[Aerows]

110. I tell it like it is. n/t

[AverageJoe90]

116. And, in this case, you are quite correct, TBH.

Indeed, for many RWNJ men, it's all about control and self-entitlement.....and nothing less!

[raccoon]

129. You got that right. nt

[arcane1]

2. I've managed to live 47 years (so far) without encountering any difficulties.

I suspect this is due, in large part, to the fact that I'm not an asshole.

[BainsBane]

3. "Not an asshole"

Imagine that. What a radical concept. We need more not-assholes.

[TreasonousBastard]

4. About this asshole thing...

I've noticed over the years that aggrieved groups of various sorts tend to not take any responsibility for the assholes on their side.

Does self-reflection get in the way of a good rant?

[BainsBane]

5. I was agreeing with the other poster

hardly engaging in a rant. If you have something to say to me, say it directly.

The key point is white men are not an aggrieved group. Those MRA assholes are a bunch of self-pitying whiners who are pissed off they can't control women. That there is anything controversial in criticizing them here is a great shame to this online community.

[TreasonousBastard]

8. And I was agreeing with you...

hardly accusing your post of being a rant.

I'm simply adding that assholes come in all shapes and sizes and a bit of self-reflection is a good thing in order to separate the meat of the issue from the rant. Should there be a rant (which there often is)

[BainsBane]

10. The difference is

some groups may have assholes among them, whereas MRAs ARE assholes, just like white supremacists.

[nomorenomore08]

19. Yeah, it's kind of written on the packaging, so to speak... n/t

[Sheldon Cooper]

7. Lots of passive aggressive assholes, one might say.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

14. yes, one could say that, sure could.

[cvoogt]

17. Lucky you

I mean that sincerely. Not everyone is so lucky. There are sociopaths and narcissists, and some of them happen to be women, and some men happen to marry them. And when a man claims to be a victim of domestic abuse, he is still often ridiculed or ignored, which is something that needs to change. It isn't nearly as common as the reverse scenario, but that doesn't make the suffering any less real for those affected. That of course does not mean all men are 'under attack'. That's silly, and this 'conference's consists of mostly deluded attendees.

[BainsBane]

18. nor does it justify defending MRAs

Anymore than having a black person one do something shitty justifies defending White Supremacists.

[cvoogt]

118. Not defending MRAs

That must be your own interpretation of what I wrote. I did not say "MRA". I did say most of those guys are deluded. That doesn't mean the experience of some guys is somehow not worthy of attention/help. I abhor black and white thinking.

[elehhhhna]

50. they are m ostly deluded

And just WOW! - some guy might marry and asshole woman? Oh, the humanity. So get away from her - and don't join the mutual loserguy itsnotfair club

[cvoogt]

117. Not joining anything.

And did get away. I did put my money where my mouth is. If you read my post, I would hope you see it is nuanced. I did say they are mostly deluded.

[Marrah_G]

6. ~facepalm~

[leftstreet]

9. Their speakers should be put on a watch list

One speaker postulated that women are responsible for all domestic violence because, having all the power in relationships, they could simply choose not to marry violent men

‘Ordinary people know,’’ Barbara Kay told her audience, ‘‘the vast majority of women crying rape on campus are actually expressing buyer’s remorse from alcohol-fueled promiscuous behavior involving murky consent on both sides.’’

In his most infamous piece, he declared the month of October to be ‘‘Bash a Violent B----’’ month: ‘‘I mean literally to grab them by the hair and smack their face against the wall,’’ he wrote. He says he was being satirical and has removed the post.

[rurallib]

15. kind of sounds like Limbaugh.

[nomorenomore08]

20. But with more of a temper, and a propensity for violence.

Rush is probably too lazy to physically "bash" anyone, if nothing else.

[raccoon]

130. Gee, do violent men have a stamp on their forehead saying "Violent?"

"One speaker postulated that women are responsible for all domestic violence because, having all the power in relationships, they could simply choose not to marry violent men"

What an idiot, whoever said such a thing.

[ohheckyeah]

11. Poor babies...

He was particularly interested in divorce issues, saying that custody should always be split and financial child support should not exist. He just wanted the same rights as everyone else.

That’s all any of them said they wanted. The same rights as the ‘‘privileged women,’’ as various attendees described the female gender. The entitled, increasingly ‘‘narcissistic women.’’ That’s all.

Imagine that - having to help support your child financially...damn demanding women.

Presenters used historical laws as ‘‘proof’’ that women have always had special privileges - access to their husband’s bank accounts, for example - but didn’t mention that during the aforementioned time period, women didn’t legally have the right to vote.

Discussion centered on the fact that men are financially destroyed by divorce while their exes live lives of luxury, but never pointed out that according to a recent census population report, the poverty rate of custodial mothers is 31.8 percent, compared with 16.2 percent of custodial fathers.

SMH - are these guys a product of a harsh mommy and rejection by women?

Most of the complaints could have been written by Elliot Rodger.

[hfojvt]

33. well, anecdotally

One guy at work was saying how happy he was now that he didn't have to pay child support. I asked how he got to stop paying it. He said because the kid was moving in with him. And I said, but you still have to pay for the kid. And a number of apparently divorced fathers said, it costs a lot less to raise a kid than it does to pay child support for a kid.

I can't confirm or deny that with my own experience, but that's what men who had experience were saying, at least at that one job.

Do they mind supporting their children - usually not. Do they, on the other hand, mind giving their hard-earned money to a woman who broke their heart? I can see how that could be a problem.

As far as being able to vote before 1920. Well, twenty year old men were not eligible to vote, but they WERE eligible to get drafted for WWI. 116,000 killed and 200,000 wounded, and what was the breakdown by gender, or age? According to one stat, 40% of Australian men ages 18-44 took part in WWI. 40%!! What would that be for men ages 18-21? 70%? 80%?

See, I might look at somebody who had a harsh parent and faced a lot of rejection, and feel sympathy for that victim.

I'd feel sympathy, not contempt.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

34. what a contemptible post. nt

[Iris]

37. agreed. n/t

[raccoon]

131. I also agree. nt

[ohheckyeah]

40. Obviously I wasn't referring to the person you are speaking of anecdotally.

Did you read what the guys were saying?

I feel contempt for them because of their comments about women. I had a harsh parent and everybody experiences rejection but I don't blame people who had nothing to do with my life situation.

[Arugula Latte]

42. "Do they mind supporting their children - usually not."

Gee, how swell of them.

Disgusting post, on several levels.

[Call Me Wesley]

51. They had a kid with the 'woman who broke their tiny little men hearts.'

So they're responsible, socially and financially. They probably still refer to 'babysit the kid' instead of 'parenting.'

Bless their tiny male hearts for earning hard money they have to share with the fruit of their groins. How unfair!

[treestar]

100. True, also, he could have broken her heart

Odd they always assume that.

[Aerows]

53. Thank God I'm a lesbian

and don't have children with a man that thinks that way.

[bravenak]

58. Knew i could count on you to hold this view.nt

[CreekDog]

63. do you ever post anything in sync with Democratic Underground or liberalism?

[hfojvt]

122. and here I thought

you saw everything

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4637766

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024494682

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024400678

all from my journal.

But only "bad" things get noticed. Look at that last thread, 20 replies, 13 of them from me and Prosense. So basically SEVEN whole replies to that OP. But 13 replies, such as they are, to this post.

[LanternWaste]

123. A rather clever rationalization for how we advertise ourselves via the mechanism of our own words...

"But only "bad" things get noticed..."

A rather clever (if somewhat shrill) rationalization for how we advertise ourselves via the mechanism of our own words...

[LeftyMom]

71. I'm calling bullshit. Raising a kid costs a ton of money.

Most people I know get less in child support than they pay just in the added housing cost for another bedroom. Certainly when you factor in clothes and food and added housing costs and added utilities and the additional cost of a kid-friendly car and health care and all the miscellaneous bullshit raising a kid is not exactly a money making proposition.

[hfojvt]

124. they could easily have been wrong

but they were the ones with the experience of both raising a kid and in paying child support.

As for some of those expenses, I could move a couple of kids into my house and have zero change in housing expenses and not that much change in utilities. The water department, for example, charges me for 1500 gallons a month, even though in many months I use less than 750 gallons. Trash in this town is not based on volume. I could have a family of five and have the same trash bill. Gas and electric all have a base charge so adding one more to my household of one would certainly not double my expenses.

Anyway, more than one father there seemed to feel that they were money ahead in having the kid instead of paying the child support. It could be that they were all wrong and just not aware of the added expenses of having another kid in the house and just felt better because they didn't have to give a check to their ex every month.

[AverageJoe90]

75. I can see what you're saying, but.....

I can't help but think that a lot (though perhaps not all) of these MRAs are doing this, not out of anger against abusive moms(or other female caregivers), or even abusive girlfriends, but due to how they were socialized by their parents, etc.

And yes, I do sympathize with ANYONE who was maltreated by anyone, whether by their mother or anyone else. TBH, though, it doesn't really excuse the actions of many of these MRAs. I've seen some pretty nasty stuff.....believe me.

[Squinch]

79. Oh, Lord.

[Doctor_J]

80. There is some evidence for this.

For example IIRC Barry Bonds' child support payments were $18,000 per month. That's 200 grand per year for one child. So clearly part of this was punitive. Obviously no such commitment would be imposed on a working stiff but the outlays are not tied purely to the costs. OTOH there are a lot more deadbeat dads than those being robbed.

[Warpy]

91. Punitive?

Do you think a wealthy father only owes his child half of bare subsistence? Or should he pay for the lifestyle that kid could expect if he were still living within the marriage that failed?

Life after divorce is enough of a minefield without fathers complaining bitterly about supporting their children and children being made to feel guilty that poor Dad has to pay for things like school tuition and braces on their teeth instead of spending it on wine, women and song.

[treestar]

101. It is that the child gets to share the lifestyle of the parents

If one is rich, then that child gets to live like a rich kid.

[treestar]

99. Child support amounts come from a federal study

And it is meant to be fair. It doesn't identify gender. It assigns percentages of basic and standard of living income. If a man has custody, he would be entitled to child support from the wife. The amount of child support is the same no matter who has custody, as it is based on their two incomes. The custodial parent supports the child. They just don't pay themselves - it's considered the amount of their earnings they spend on the child.

The kid moving in with him does not mean he is not supporting the child. That's ridiculous. And I bet he's too proud to collect CS from the mother, who is liable. This guy is a liar.

[erpowers]

120. If Their Wives Won The Lottery

I bet if any of these guy's wives won the lottery and then decided to divorce them they would change their tune. I bet they would want full custody of the kid(s) and want full financial child and spousal support.

On another note, these guys should talk to Halle Berry, Brittany Spears, Janet Jackson, Jennifer Lopez, or any other successful or wealthy woman who has either lost custody of her children to her ex, or got a divorce from a less successful man. Halle Berry has to pay her ex $16,000 per month until their daugther turns 19. Brittany Spears pays Kevin Federline $20,000 a month in child support. Janet Jackson had to pay her ex-husband $10-$15 million as a divorce settlement. Jennifer Lopez had to pay ex-husband Chris Judd about $14 million as a divorce settlement. Yes, those women are rich and famous, but when women who are not rich and famous lose custody of their children they are ordered to pay child support.

[AverageJoe90]

12. These MRA guys are a bunch of pathetic fucking douchebags. All of them.

What pisses me off, more than anything, is they claim to care so much about problems that really DO affect boys and men, and spend so much time bloviating about it, that you'd wonder if they were compensating for something. But in all honesty, once you scratch the surface, many of them really don't. I even recall reading a post on Return of Kings that joked about *child abuse* of all things.....now that's just fucked up. And believe me, there isn't much I despise more than a defense of the actions of those who purposefully harm children.

[nomorenomore08]

23. +1000000

They're sociopaths, plain and simple. Women just happen to be their favored targets.

[CreekDog]

66. then why did you recommend quinnox's post to hide hobby lobby posts?

why did you still recommend it after he included a LOL at posts about wcgreen?

so you think MRA's suck? then why did you recommend an MRA thread, from a prominent MRA at DU?

this seems a lot like your climate change posts, you say you believe it's happening, but nearly every post here and elsewhere your main issue is that it's being overstated. well, that's your only issue.

please.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=thread&address=10025204896&info=1#recs

[AverageJoe90]

67. Well, if you *must* know.....

I sincerely believed it was just one of those pieces of advice for people who didn't want to necessarily deal with the topic du jour popping up every so often; sometimes the forum does get overcrowded. I saw nothing in there that could have possibly been construed as "OMG, plz stp tlking about womenz problemz!".

(Also, I don't have anything against WCGreen, if you absolutely must know)

But we both know why you're really doing this, though. And it's not out of altruism, that's for damn sure.

[CreekDog]

68. I don't like being BS'd.

it was bad enough when you recommended the post, when you kept your recommend after knowing that the swipe at wcgreen was in there...

i said nothing about you to other DUers.

but now that you're bragging about being anti-MRA?

yeah, bullshit. not playing that anymore.

[AverageJoe90]

69. "I don't like being BS'd."

Frankly, I feel the same way right now. But unlike yourself, I actually have a damn good reason.

[CreekDog]

70. i explained very clearly what the bs was

you did not.

[AverageJoe90]

72. You know exactly what I mean.

C'mon, man, you've never once backed up ANY of your accusations with actual proof, of any kind.

[CreekDog]

73. uh oh

[AverageJoe90]

78. Well, I'm afraid you failed to do anything.....other than make me laugh.

I'm sure that's not what you intended, but that is indeed what happened.

[LeftyMom]

74. Wait, are you trying to get him to link to your posts so you can alert on him for "stalking" again?

Because apparently replying to your posts is stalking now.

[AverageJoe90]

77. If only you knew what was really going on.....nt

[CreekDog]

81. my post was verifiably proven from the first.

that's why the jury didn't hide it.

i said you recommended that thread. true. the link was there for all to see.

i said you knew the wcgreen comment was there because i messaged you and told you (wrongly thinking you'd remove your recommend, wrongly thinking you wouldn't want to be a part of such a rude thing). and you just messaged me back about the alert, so you can't play that you don't read them.

also true, also provable (and that was this morning, not 10 minutes ago).

this is just like the climate change denial arguments. nothing is proof to you until you type that it has proven you wrong --which it never does for some reason!

[AverageJoe90]

92. You accused me of lying about being against MRA misogyny.

And that accusation was simply not true.

[LeftyMom]

82. You're mad at a fellow white dude for being feminist and antiracist? I know. I can read.

I figure mostly you're just still pouting about getting kicked out of E&E for being a denier, so you're taking it out on Creeky because he's a host in that group.

[AverageJoe90]

86. "You're mad at a fellow white dude for being feminist and antiracist?" You do realize.....

That I happen to be both of those very things you mentioned, right? Hell, I was an anti-racist & anti-fascist LOOONNNNNGGG before I joined DU or even became a Democrat for that matter.

[CreekDog]

88. when did you become a Democrat?

has the paperwork been processed yet?

[AverageJoe90]

90. Well, I'm not exactly registered, TBH.

But I meant in a more general partisan sense. I became a Democrat sometime in 2010; this would be a year before I joined DU.(if you absolutely must know, unfortunate life circumstances have prevented me from actually being able to do such things. I'm sure you may be skeptical, perhaps, but that's the honest-to-god truth.)

[CreekDog]

95. you aren't registered to vote?

interesting.

bah, not really.

[AverageJoe90]

96. And honestly, why the fuck do you care? nt

[CreekDog]

113. well since you offered that, why not?

[CreekDog]

85. Leftymom knows exactly what's going on.

the claim that you're anti-MRA was just too bold to be left unanswered.

[AverageJoe90]

87. Sure, you can tell yourself that, if you'd like. Doesn't change the fact that I'm right. nt

[Comrade Grumpy]

125. And now they begin to eat their own. n/t

[etherealtruth]

13. Oh for the love of Pete

From the article:

Discussion centered on the fact that men are financially destroyed by divorce while their exes live lives of luxury, but never pointed out that according to a recent census population report, the poverty rate of custodial mothers is 31.8 percent, compared with 16.2 percent of custodial fathers

.

[rurallib]

16. No doubt each and every one gives their ex a luxury amount

while cutting back them selves. Surely never late with a payment especially the child support.

yep, these are some of the finest men in America!

Do I need the sarcasm thingy?

[knitter4democracy]

26. My ex has tried that very argument, too.

Of course, I'm looking at bankruptcy after getting stuck with the majority of the marriage debt in a house I can't sell...

[hfojvt]

32. I am curious though

what is the poverty rate for NON-custodial fathers?

[Harmony Blue]

21. Austrailian men have a point

due to cohabitation laws.

[cyberswede]

22. Can you explain what you mean?

I'm not familiar with Australian cohabitation laws.

[Violet_Crumble]

35. I'm familiar with those laws but I'm going to need an explanation too...

I'm not sure what the poster yr replying to thinks Australian men would have a point about if they're talking about defacto relationships. If that's what they're talking about, I've got no idea how anyone could see property division laws as victimising men...

http://www.familyrelationships.gov.au/BrochuresandPublications/Pages/propertydivisionwhendefactorelationshipsbreakdown.aspx

[CreekDog]

64. it's always the same posters isn't it?

[cyberswede]

108. Indeed...and I'm still waiting for a response.

Shockingly.

[nomorenomore08]

24. Any valid point they may have is lost in their endless trashing of the female gender. n/t

[nomorenomore08]

25. "A lot of guys talked about their ex-wives."

Funny how these guys are so much the pathetic divorcees and loners they accuse feminists of being.

[madinmaryland]

43. These fools need to look in the mirror to see who is causing all of their troubles. nt

[Comrade Grumpy]

27. Men are not second class citizens, even if life doesn't always treat us as we wish.

[cali]

28. excellent, well written piece of journalism! thanks for posting it. n/t

[MrScorpio]

29. Jeez, what a pathetic bunch of losers. nt

[theHandpuppet]

30. These guys don't sound like second class citizens, just first class losers

[smirkymonkey]

97. I'm stealing that line, hope you don't mind!

[BlueCheese]

31. That might be true...

... only if the first class citizens are corporations.

[davidn3600]

36. Women whine about many of the same things when put in the same position men are in...

Just like this woman...

But 18 years later, when I divorced my husband, I had a successful writing career and some money in the bank. He got to take half of it. But it isn't even the fact that I had to give him half that I find so egregious. It's the alimony he demanded I pay him on top of it that makes me very, very angry—like scream-really-loud, get-drunk, and eat-gratuitous-carbohydrates angry. On the first day of every month, I have to write him a mother^#%*ing check for six thousand dollars. I've been doing this for two and a half years. I've got five more left.

How did this happen? Because California divorce laws are antiquated and ridiculous and favor the less successful spouse. You're probably thinking that he must have been raising our children, while I was acting as the breadwinner. Nope. We don't have any. The state of California says that I'm supposed to keep him at the standard of living he got used to during our marriage, even though he's no longer my husband. So despite the fact that he has a master's degree and more marketable job skills than I do, I've had to give up my quality of life in order to maintain his. I can now no longer afford such luxuries as cable TV and haircuts.

When my divorce lawyer, Melanie, first told me that my ex was eligible for spousal support (the new way of saying alimony), I replied, "There's no way he would ever ask for that. That would be such a pussy move." She shook her head, looked at me across her desk, and said, "Every woman who's sat in that chair has said the same thing. Get ready, because he's going to ask for it."

http://www.cosmopolitan.com/celebrity/exclusive/why-every-woman-should-get-a-prenup

Alimony laws ain't fun when the shoe is on the other foot.

[cali]

38. that's your takeaway from this article? Not the hate and sickness that was so plainly

manifested? As many journalists who attended, including this one, noted, it isn't that they don't have some legitimate concerns, it's that a closer view (and listen) reveals just how pathological these guys are.

If you support this shit, you need to leave DU. There's no room for that kind of hate and bigotry here.

[davidn3600]

39. I never said they weren't haters

I was simply responding to an issue that was raised a few times in this thread that many of the men there are whiners or don't have legit issues. My post simply shows on some of these things, when you flip the genders, women have the same language these men are using.

MRAs concentrate 99% of their problems on women and not enough time on issues and there is some misogyny there. I don't go to such web forums to be honest with you so maybe they are worse than the times I've encountered them. But I don't go to many feminist sites very much either because the bashing of men get pretty bad there at times. Im not MRA but Im also not a feminist. Don't like the label. I'd like to be part of a movement that supports equality for everyone. Men, women, LGBT, race, etc.. all equally. Unfortunately that doesn't really exist.

[geek tragedy]

41. Sooooo transparent.

But I don't go to many feminist sites very much either because the bashing of men get pretty bad there at times.

You don't read feminist sites, but you know the "bashing of men" gets bad there.

And, of course, the nonsense attempt to equate feminism with a hate speech movement.

[trumad]

44. Bashing of men

Cracks me up every time I hear that line.

[geek tragedy]

45. but of course they never read MRA sites, just miraculously happen

to repeat all the tropes popular at said sites, and post articles bashing feminists popular at said sites

[Call Me Wesley]

59. Sorry, wrong spot. Meant to reply to OP. (nt)

[geek tragedy]

60. did you perhaps mean this for someone else? nt

[Call Me Wesley]

62. Yes, I apologize. (nt)

[Quantess]

49. How do you possibly carry on with your life, being so weighed down by this?

I mean, at some point you have to pick up the shattered pieces of your broken manliness, and try to put it all back together.

[geek tragedy]

52. Complaining about women, apparently. nt

[Quantess]

54. ...

So sorry, I misread your post. I thought it was you who said that.
I thought I was giving a real zinger of a reply, too!

[geek tragedy]

55. the arrow was sharp, but it hit the wrong target nt

[Quantess]

56. Dang it!

Missed!

Anyway, so sorry for the misunderstanding!

[Quantess]

83. I am pretty sure it was you I originally meant to respond to. Anyway, here's comment 49

Addressed to you:

49. How do you possibly carry on with your life, being so weighed down by this?

I mean, at some point you have to pick up the shattered pieces of your broken manliness, and try to put it all back together.

[treestar]

103. That's no surprise

She's a much of a jerk as the MRAs. Also lying and exaggerating. He had to qualify for alimony under the same laws that a wife would. If the numbers add up, she can be the one who pays. And saying it's a "pussy Move" is indeed wrong. Men often don't get what they are entitled to due to this label.

[hatrack]

46. Which explains why so few men run Fortune 500 companies, universities or are members of Congress

Uh, next specious, farcical statement, please.

[mercuryblues]

57. humpty dumpty

sat on a wall
humpty dumpty
had a great fall
all the Queens horses
and all the queens men
couldn't put humpty dumpty
together again

That irritates Humpty Dumpty
more than the fall
the queen can't fix him
so he hates them all

[KamaAina]

47. Thank goodness for progressive companies like Hobby Lobby

that stand up for their poor, put-upon male employees and take bold steps like paying for their birth control.

[Call Me Wesley]

61. In fact, men should be once second class citizens.

Just to see how it feels. Have their reproductive organs well regulated by corporations and laws. No condoms. Child pay all the way. Stay home and care for the kids. (And, no, it's not called 'babysitting,' boys. It's called 'parenting.' Just a hint.) So oppressed you are ...

I feel so sorry for you going trough all this. Or more disgusted.

[nolabels]

65. That makes me a happy man

They can put whatever tags they want on me, I am still going to be me, no matter what

I wish all these whining fools had good reason but they chose their own poison and nobody gets out of here alive anyway. Really guys, if you are reading this you can probably breathe, and no doubt most other things of your daily life things are in order also.

I don't get it all that much except the foolishness.

Don't let bring you down and just

Have a happy day

[CreekDog]

76. So true, thank goodness the extra pay and representation in DC makes up for it

[Liberal MRA]

89. I really don't see what is so controversial about this.

I wouldn't go so far as to label men as second-class citizens, but men lag behind women in many facets of life. Men make up 80% of homicide victims, 70% of the homeless, have a suicide rate three times that of women, and constitute 92% of workplace fatalities. Boys and young men are far more likely to drop out of school and not attend college than women.

Also, the establishment seems to care far more about crimes committed against women and girls than men and boys. An example of this is the recent international uproar over the the abduction of the schoolgirls in Nigeria, while the massacre of dozens of young male students by Boko Haram two months earlier was barely even mentioned by the Western mainstream media.

Men should be able to discuss problems specific to their gender without being labeled hatemongers and misogynists. I feel this conference is a positive development, and I hope there are similar ones held in the future. This article is misleading; not all of the people who attended were old bitter white men.

In fact three of the speakers at the conference were women. One of them was Karen Straughan, aka "Girl Writes What", one of the most vocal and articulate Men's Rights activists on YouTube. Also, Dr. Warren Farrell, a feminist and three time director of the National Organization for Women, spoke at this conference.

Though bitterness towards feminism doesn't help the men right's movement, it's hard not to be bitter when you see leading feminists holding a debate over whether men are obsolete or not (look up the Munk Debate on Gender if you think I'm lying about this.)

[AverageJoe90]

93. Unfortunately, neither of of the two people you mentioned......

Help your case, dude. Mrs. Straughan is a self-flagellating moron, and Dr. Farrell is anything but a feminist. In fact, he's been outed as a weirdo who seems to think parent-child incest could possibly be a good thing!

Here, Dave Futrelle has a few things to say about him. Believe me, you may need some brain bleach after this:
http://wehuntedthemammoth.com/2012/11/21/what-mens-rights-guru-warren-farrell-actually-said-about-the-allegedly-positive-aspects-of-incest-note-its-even-more-repugnant-than-that-sounds/

[CreekDog]

94. well, first things first, we need to make sure that we men have enough representation in congress

then at least we have to make sure that on average we're not paid any less than women.

the Supreme Court decides many issues related to men's and women's rights, let's make sure we have at least a majority of men there.

we should also make sure that we don't have more men in poverty than women.

ok, what's left on our to do list now?

[smirkymonkey]

98. Then for Fuck's sake discuss the REAL injustices occurring in the world toward men

and leave women out of it. Because it isn't us that's doing this to you. It's other men. Do something about it instead of whining about how women are ruining your lives. It's so easy to blame us, but it's so hard to face the real problems that you are up against. Grow up, grow a pair and deal with the real issues.

[Gormy Cuss]

119. +1 n/t

[Starry Messenger]

121. +2

[PasadenaTrudy]

127. +3 n/t

[cui bono]

135. nice n/t

[geek tragedy]

102. Ewwww. nt

[bravenak]

104. Hmm.

Aren't male victims usually victims of other men? And female victims too?
They should leave women bashing out of the discussion.

[LeftyMom]

105. You didn't mention the other two women at the conference

Those would be the profanely named one with the habit of referring to other women as whores and the woman who excuses abuse and rape, correct?

Having three Clayton Bigsbys on the podium isn't anything to be proud of.

[geek tragedy]

107. "it's hard not to be bitter" at feminists?

Actually, it's quite easy to avoid being bitter at feminists and feminism for anyone who isn't a knuckle-dragging rightwinger and misogynist.

[cyberswede]

109. Oh for fuck's sake.

[Starry Messenger]

114. What "establishment"?

The one that just stripped women's health from being a necessary component of the ACA?

[Hissyspit]

128. Speaking as a male...

Derp.

Derpitty derp derp.

Derp-a-lerp derpy derp.

Derp derp derp derp derp derp.

Deeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrrrrrp...

[raccoon]

132. Why did you choose your handle? Just to be inflammatory? nt

[Iggo]

133. Aw.

[SueZbell]

106. How the Hobby Lobby decision can adversely affect men and children as well as women:

There are people who object to blood transfusions on religious grounds. These people are not members of some new 2014 cult created to protect women's rights. The Jehovah Witnesses are an established religion whose beliefs are sincerely held and commonly known.

If a closely held corporation or a religious business entity (Thursday's decision was a college.) owned or operated by people of this faith decided to insist that insurance they offered NOT cover blood transfusions, and if, per Thursday's decision, they are not obligated to provide that info to the government, then their average employee -- male or female -- that failed to read the fine print in their insurance could well be without coverage for this life saving medical care and some for profit businesses insist on payment up front if no insurance exists to cover the work.

How would you feel if your insurer were not obligated to cover blood transfusions and not obligated to make it known or even answer direct questions about it, impeding your ability to obtain coverage elsewhere?

[Raine1967]

111. The original link from the WaPo Style section:

It's still dreck, but that website does't deserve the clicks, WaPo does and it deserves to see what people really think:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/mens-rights-activists-gathering-to-discuss-all-the-ways-society-has-done-them-wrong/2014/06/30/a9310d96-005f-11e4-8fd0-3a663dfa68ac_story.html

Don't let WaPo off the hook for this, but know that it had a far different headline, and it was in the style section: Men’s rights activists, gathering to discuss all the ways society has done them wrong

[hunter]

112. My family is a matriarchy as far back as I've found.

It's the women in my family who are most dangerous.

My great grandmothers, all of them, were very strong women of the wild west.



I'm okay with that.

Great grandpa in this picture is a mining engineer. A science geek. Can do trigonometry in his head. Great Grandma brought the meat home to the dinner table.

I had another great grandma who could turn fish or small mammal into dinner, cooked on her wood stove, faster than a suburban kid like me could comprehend. I'd watch her hands cutting meat, my jaw slack. Amazement.

She taught me much about knives and meat. I hope I never have to apply these bloody skills beyond fish.

[AverageJoe90]

115. That's a heck of an interesting family, if I do say so myself. =)

Some pretty fascinating ladies in your family, TBH.

[erpowers]

126. Men Who Are Not Manly Wanting to be Manly

From reading the article, it seemed to me that a number of the men were just men who had not really done very much with their lives and wanted to seem like tough guys. The author of the article wrote that one of the men asked her to write that he told here to "go get him a sandwich". Another man, although he said he was being satirical, on his website to encourage men to beat women. The city of Detroit was chosen because it was the most masculine of American cities. When the group was, for some reason, kicked out of the Double Tree Hotel and ended up having their conference at a Veterans of Foreign Wars (VFW) facility the group claimed the (VFW) was an even more masculine place to have the conference.

[Rex]

134. Well these men should be worried! Any day now one of them will be shanghaied

into the global sex trade...oh wait, no...they never will have to worry about such things, but yeah red pill etc..