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xchrom

(108,903 posts)
Wed Jul 9, 2014, 05:04 AM Jul 2014

How America's Biblical Ignorance Allows Christian Right to Use 'Religious Freedom' For Own Agenda

http://www.alternet.org/belief/how-americas-biblical-ignorance-allows-christian-right-use-religious-freedom-their-own-agenda



The Bible doesn’t mention anything about contraception or abortion, but this hasn’t stopped 89 million American evangelicals acting as if “thou shall not consume a pregnancy pill” were one of the Ten Commandments. For the benefit of my mostly American audience, it’s not. In fact, the first four of the Hebrew God’s Decalogue amount to nothing more than “maniacal throat clearing,” to steal a phrase from the late Christopher Hitchens.

The decision of the five conservative justices to rule in favor of Hobby Lobby, thus granting religious personhood to 90 percent of U.S. corporations, which means that certain for-profit companies may refuse to cover forms of birth control they find morally objectionable, has been debated from every angle except one: the theological perspective.

An overwhelming majority of hyper-religious Americans, and Americans in general, are incapable of debating the theological aspect of their faith. Not only do a staggering majority of Americans have no idea what is or isn’t written in the Bible, they have not a morsel of knowledge as it pertains to just about all aspects of historical context and biblical scholarship.

At a time of heightened controversy surrounding women’s reproductive rights, most discourse relies upon the political, philosophical and legal dimensions of access to abortion and contraception. In almost all instances, religious traditions and theological perspectives are not fully explored beyond an occasional reference to the biblical commandment, “thou shall not kill.” The nation’s collective biblical ignorance not only prevents any reasonable theological debate, but also allows Christian fundamentalists, like Hobby Lobby and its Christian Right supporters, to contort scripture to their own advantage.
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How America's Biblical Ignorance Allows Christian Right to Use 'Religious Freedom' For Own Agenda (Original Post) xchrom Jul 2014 OP
Spot on. safeinOhio Jul 2014 #1
How the kNOw nothings have come to rule Bortman33 Jul 2014 #2
It's far worse than that. They use bad science, too. longship Jul 2014 #3
I don't think the higher ups are ignorant. I think they're cynical. merrily Jul 2014 #9
Or outright lying. longship Jul 2014 #24
They know, IronLionZion Jul 2014 #4
Yeah, it's always a bad moment when... Jerry442 Jul 2014 #10
can;t be said enough, for those people, Religious Freedom = religious privilege KG Jul 2014 #5
Thou shall not eat hard-shell crabs and shrimp either...but no one cites this. kelliekat44 Jul 2014 #6
Actually, they do cite it, but explain it away. merrily Jul 2014 #12
The NT says women should remain at home raising children, silent in public, modestly dressed Bluenorthwest Jul 2014 #33
I'm not sure it's ignorance--the Bible is like a Rorscach test--you see in it what you want to see. bklyncowgirl Jul 2014 #7
It's the "Buffet Bible" KansDem Jul 2014 #11
I don't think they want to leave anything for others. merrily Jul 2014 #14
I suppose they would say the same thing about "liberal" Christians bklyncowgirl Jul 2014 #15
+1 Enthusiast Jul 2014 #20
I agree to a point, but it's REALLY hard to miss the stuff about merrily Jul 2014 #13
I am sure it is ignorance...and I have been saying it for decades. zeemike Jul 2014 #18
Actually following teachings of Jesus will not give you a club to beat up on others. bklyncowgirl Jul 2014 #25
Well that was of course my point. zeemike Jul 2014 #30
Excellent post! Great insight into the "some Christian" condition. Enthusiast Jul 2014 #19
And they use it to make god in their image. FiveGoodMen Jul 2014 #38
These people are getting more and more power... yuiyoshida Jul 2014 #8
They would take every last bit of the power, given the chance. Enthusiast Jul 2014 #21
K&R! These fuckers don't know shit about the bible. Enthusiast Jul 2014 #16
Actually, the Bible does describe the ingestion of an abortafacient mnhtnbb Jul 2014 #17
Seems pretty clear to me. Enthusiast Jul 2014 #23
Really. mnhtnbb Jul 2014 #35
Gosh, the knowledge of human reproduction represented in this Holy Text - simply amazing! hatrack Jul 2014 #26
I wonder why this didn't come up during the court case perdita9 Jul 2014 #32
I think it stems from that "be fruitful and multiply" part Marrah_G Jul 2014 #22
K&R Solly Mack Jul 2014 #27
Huge K & R !!! WillyT Jul 2014 #28
We give the religious folks power gladly out of fear rurallib Jul 2014 #29
Numbers, 5, 19-28 supports abortion perdita9 Jul 2014 #31
Did they even know what abortion was at the time? kwolf68 Jul 2014 #36
The road to the demise of America will be paved with religion. n/t RKP5637 Jul 2014 #34
there's actually numerous old, respectable, robust schools of interpretation MisterP Jul 2014 #37
Actually it does make one small mention of contraception. Onan. CBGLuthier Jul 2014 #39
 

Bortman33

(102 posts)
2. How the kNOw nothings have come to rule
Wed Jul 9, 2014, 06:25 AM
Jul 2014

the supreme court, congress, state houses, and christianity making America the number two loser in the world right behind those who are burdened by Sharia law.

longship

(40,416 posts)
3. It's far worse than that. They use bad science, too.
Wed Jul 9, 2014, 06:28 AM
Jul 2014

The ignorance is appalling in this group.

Their claim that the pill, both morning after and daily contraceptive, are abortion producing is completely and utterly contramanded by the science. The idea that the birth control pill has as its only purpose of women having more sex -- Horrors! -- is similarly ridiculous on top of being clearly misongynistic. (How about those boner pills, Rush?)

Of course, this all ignores the other cultural, medical, financial, personal, and other reasons that maybe women may want to be able to select when and if they desire to become pregnant.

And on the other side of all that, yes, we have "because the Bible told me so" when it says basically nothing of the sort.

R&K

longship

(40,416 posts)
24. Or outright lying.
Wed Jul 9, 2014, 09:06 AM
Jul 2014

But I don't know what's going on in another's mind. But it's either deception or ignorance, neither of which saves them from my condemnation.

IronLionZion

(45,427 posts)
4. They know,
Wed Jul 9, 2014, 06:50 AM
Jul 2014

they just don't care. It's more about punishing someone for doing something they don't approve of, which is sex. The "undeserving" don't "deserve" it.


I had a shocking conversation with a cute girl I had dated a few times recently. She's against the religious right so I thought it was a good sign. Until the conversation turned towards hobby lobby and she cast a lot of disgusting judgments down upon their workers like "if you work at minimum wage, you don't deserve to have sex" and "if they're too dumb to go to planned parenthood for free condoms, they shouldn't have sex" and other disgusting shit. It wasn't the first time I heard horrible stuff come from someone who looks so pretty and sweet. She's more educated than me, I wonder what she thinks of me behind my back.

Wait for it....she's an OB/GYN....MD....at a public hospital!

Eww.... some people.



Jerry442

(1,265 posts)
10. Yeah, it's always a bad moment when...
Wed Jul 9, 2014, 07:46 AM
Jul 2014

...someone you like and admire opens their mouth and something awful comes out.

KG

(28,751 posts)
5. can;t be said enough, for those people, Religious Freedom = religious privilege
Wed Jul 9, 2014, 06:53 AM
Jul 2014

the ability to be shitheads and justify it w/ jesus.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
12. Actually, they do cite it, but explain it away.
Wed Jul 9, 2014, 07:51 AM
Jul 2014

"The law" of the OT was before Jesus paid for our sins, thereby relieving us of our servitude to the law. Now, we are required to obey only those things in the OT that have been "pulled forward" into the NT. (Mostly by the Apostle Paul, who never met Jesus, except in a vision Paul had while on his way to Damascus to slaughter Christians.)

As to the dietary laws in particular, Paul and Peter supposedly had it out with each other and then Peter supposedly had a dream that convinced him God was on Paul's side.

So, there is a rationale for all the stuff from the Torah. Unless it's mentioned in the NT, it doesn't affect Christians.

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
33. The NT says women should remain at home raising children, silent in public, modestly dressed
Wed Jul 9, 2014, 10:00 AM
Jul 2014

and never having any authority over any man in any way. In spite of this, you have 'Christian' women who rage against gay people while seeking offices of great authority over men. They don't explain that away.
Let's look at the Inaugural, where 'to honor Jesus' they had to have Rick Warren pray in front of millions prior to Obama swearing an oath to God. In the NT, Jesus forbids public prayers of any sort and also forbids taking any sort of oath, particularly 'to God'. So to 'please Jesus' they did things Jesus forbade them to do. Had they followed Jesus words, they'd not have insulted millions of Americans, so they said 'fuck Jesus' and did as they please, just as they all do.
Jesus commands his followers 'call no man Father'. But some sects demand that Jesus be rejected in favor of the custom of calling all priests Father they say 'call lots of men Father, Jesus was fucked in the head! Kneel and call me Father.'

They never explain that away with some story of Peter's dream life.

bklyncowgirl

(7,960 posts)
7. I'm not sure it's ignorance--the Bible is like a Rorscach test--you see in it what you want to see.
Wed Jul 9, 2014, 07:04 AM
Jul 2014

Some Christians can look at the Bible and see a blueprint for living a moral, pious life. Others see it as a hammer to hit other people over the head with--essentially and ironically ignoring the teaching of Jesus--who famously practiced forgiveness of sins and called for a private piety.

I've never understood Christian Fundamentalists and I never will. They insist on the most strict interpretation of obscure bits of the Old Testament and rationalize away much of what seems to me to be the perfectly clear teachings of Jesus regarding forgiveness of sin, generosity to the poor and his denunciation of greed.

KansDem

(28,498 posts)
11. It's the "Buffet Bible"
Wed Jul 9, 2014, 07:48 AM
Jul 2014
I've never understood Christian Fundamentalists and I never will. They insist on the most strict interpretation of obscure bits of the Old Testament and rationalize away much of what seems to me to be the perfectly clear teachings of Jesus regarding forgiveness of sin, generosity to the poor and his denunciation of greed.


They simply take what they want and leave the rest for others...

merrily

(45,251 posts)
14. I don't think they want to leave anything for others.
Wed Jul 9, 2014, 07:57 AM
Jul 2014

They didn't say it was okay for the Pope to preach charity, even if they no longer believe in it. They began calling him a Communist, a word that this country has, since the Russian revolution spent much blood and many billions fighting and equating with the foulest of things (followed, of course, by "liberal.&quot

I think they want their way or the highway.

bklyncowgirl

(7,960 posts)
15. I suppose they would say the same thing about "liberal" Christians
Wed Jul 9, 2014, 08:01 AM
Jul 2014

If the Bible is the direct Word of God then every bit of it is true (as interpreted by one's spiritual leader, of course). It's the interpretation that matters.

I once had a Fundamentalist argue with me that JC turning water into wine during the wedding feast at Cana did not actually mean that Christians were allowed to drink alcohol. She went into this long explanation about how this miracle was a metaphor for something or other.

Seems that seeing a Bible story as a metaphor when it frankly celebrates something which one's denomination disapproves of is fine. When it comes to the story of creation of course it must all be taken literally, Adam, Eve the snake all lock stock and apple.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
13. I agree to a point, but it's REALLY hard to miss the stuff about
Wed Jul 9, 2014, 07:53 AM
Jul 2014

loving your fellow human, being charitable to those who have less than you do, and not judging.

zeemike

(18,998 posts)
18. I am sure it is ignorance...and I have been saying it for decades.
Wed Jul 9, 2014, 08:25 AM
Jul 2014

That is if ignorance is defined as not knowing the subject.
And in my experience in debating this subject, and I have done a lot of it, with both atheist and fundamentalist Christians, the ones who know the least about the bible is the fundies.
And the reason for their ignorance is because they don't really read the bible...they memorize the parts of it that they can use to attack people with and have no concept at all of what story the bible tells...and it does tell a story if you read it in that way...and interesting story I might add...and it is irrelevant whether you think the story it true or not.

Were Christians ever to actually follow the teachings of Jesus most of our problems in this country would be solved...and atheist and the non religious would not hate them.

bklyncowgirl

(7,960 posts)
25. Actually following teachings of Jesus will not give you a club to beat up on others.
Wed Jul 9, 2014, 09:27 AM
Jul 2014

Therefore, I'm afraid the man from Galilee is quite irrelevant to those who trumpet his name. Actually, and correct me if I'm wrong, Jesus never used the word "Christ" or the Aramaic or Hebrew equivalent thereof.

That was an invention of his followers.

To paraphrase Gandhi. I love Christ but I can't stand Christians. They are so unlike Christ.

zeemike

(18,998 posts)
30. Well that was of course my point.
Wed Jul 9, 2014, 09:42 AM
Jul 2014

The teachings of Jesus are the most progressive and liberal teachings there are...to follow them would mean nothing but peace.

But there is a misunderstanding of the word Christ...it is a title that means the saviour of mankind...it is Jesus THE Christ not Jesus Christ...and I would argue that his teachings could be the saviour of mankind if they were believed...and among fundamentalist they are just ignored in favor of parts of the bible they can use to emotionally beat people up...ironicly the exact opposite of what Jesus taught.

So it was not an invention, it is something his followers believed...and I think they were right...and so was Gandhi.

Enthusiast

(50,983 posts)
19. Excellent post! Great insight into the "some Christian" condition.
Wed Jul 9, 2014, 08:44 AM
Jul 2014

Seriously.

I would vote for you for chairman of the biblical oversight committee.

"They insist on the most strict interpretation of obscure bits of the Old Testament and rationalize away much of what seems to me to be the perfectly clear teachings of Jesus regarding forgiveness of sin, generosity to the poor and his denunciation of greed."

yuiyoshida

(41,831 posts)
8. These people are getting more and more power...
Wed Jul 9, 2014, 07:15 AM
Jul 2014

I am afraid they just might grab too much power, and than this country will really be at their mercy, as they gut science, education and sanity as we know it. Kami sama forbid they come into full power.. This country will collapse in upon itself.

mnhtnbb

(31,382 posts)
17. Actually, the Bible does describe the ingestion of an abortafacient
Wed Jul 9, 2014, 08:25 AM
Jul 2014

administered by a priest to a wife that a husband suspects of adultery. And none other than
Moses was tapped to bring the law to the Israelites. If she's guilty (and pregnant--possibly by someone other than the husband), there is an effective abortion.

It's quite an interesting story.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordeal_of_the_bitter_water



Numbers 5:11-31 Revised Standard Version


11 The Lord spoke to Moses, saying: 12 Speak to the Israelites and say to them: If any man's wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him, 13 if a man has had intercourse with her but it is hidden from her husband, so that she is undetected though she has defiled herself, and there is no witness against her since she was not caught in the act; 14 if a spirit of jealousy comes on him, and he is jealous of his wife who has defiled herself; or if a spirit of jealousy comes on him, and he is jealous of his wife, though she has not defiled herself; 15 then the man shall bring his wife to the priest. And he shall bring the offering required for her, one-tenth of an ephah of barley flour. He shall pour no oil on it and put no frankincense on it, for it is a grain offering of jealousy, a grain offering of remembrance, bringing iniquity to remembrance. 16 Then the priest shall bring her near, and set her before the Lord; 17 the priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel, and take some of the dust that is on the floor of the tabernacle and put it into the water. 18 The priest shall set the woman before the Lord, dishevel the woman's hair, and place in her hands the grain offering of remembrance, which is the grain offering of jealousy. In his own hand the priest shall have the water of bitterness that brings the curse. 19 Then the priest shall make her take an oath, saying, "If no man has lain with you, if you have not turned aside to uncleanness while under your husband's authority, be immune to this water of bitterness that brings the curse. 20 But if you have gone astray while under your husband's authority, if you have defiled yourself and some man other than your husband has had intercourse with you," 21 —let the priest make the woman take the oath of the curse and say to the woman—"the Lord make you an execration and an oath among your people, when the Lord makes your uterus drop, your womb discharge; 22 now may this water that brings the curse enter your bowels and make your womb discharge, your uterus drop!" And the woman shall say, "Amen. Amen." 23 Then the priest shall put these curses in writing, and wash them off into the water of bitterness. 24 He shall make the woman drink the water of bitterness that brings the curse, and the water that brings the curse shall enter her and cause bitter pain. 25 The priest shall take the grain offering of jealousy out of the woman's hand, and shall elevate the grain offering before the Lord and bring it to the altar; 26 and the priest shall take a handful of the grain offering, as its memorial portion, and turn it into smoke on the altar, and afterward shall make the woman drink the water. 27 When he has made her drink the water, then, if she has defiled herself and has been unfaithful to her husband, the water that brings the curse shall enter into her and cause bitter pain, and her womb shall discharge, her uterus drop, and the woman shall become an execration among her people. 28 But if the woman has not defiled herself and is clean, then she shall be immune and be able to conceive children. 29 This is the law in cases of jealousy, when a wife, while under her husband's authority, goes astray and defiles herself, 30 or when a spirit of jealousy comes on a man and he is jealous of his wife; then he shall set the woman before the Lord, and the priest shall apply this entire law to her. 31 The man shall be free from iniquity, but the woman shall bear her iniquity.



Enthusiast

(50,983 posts)
23. Seems pretty clear to me.
Wed Jul 9, 2014, 09:04 AM
Jul 2014

I guess this is a part of the bible the Righties® do not wish to emphasize.

mnhtnbb

(31,382 posts)
35. Really.
Wed Jul 9, 2014, 10:27 AM
Jul 2014

The Bible thumpers do not like to be referred to this story.
Many of them will dismiss it--as referring to adultery, not abortion--but you can't escape
the language and meaning of the effects of this ordeal. I found the Wiki discussion
interesting about ordeals, and well referenced.

I've known about this story in Numbers for years and years. It's amazing how seldom it is
cited--or known--by Bible thumpers.

perdita9

(1,144 posts)
32. I wonder why this didn't come up during the court case
Wed Jul 9, 2014, 09:46 AM
Jul 2014

Probably because SCOTUS is supposed to base their rulings on the Constitution, not the bible. Too bad John Roberts, et al, didn't get the memo.

Marrah_G

(28,581 posts)
22. I think it stems from that "be fruitful and multiply" part
Wed Jul 9, 2014, 08:58 AM
Jul 2014

Which made sense thousands of years ago when life expetancy was short and populations were much smaller.

Solly Mack

(90,762 posts)
27. K&R
Wed Jul 9, 2014, 09:32 AM
Jul 2014

I'm the granddaughter of a minister and in my 50 years I can say without exaggeration that the overwhelming majority of Christians I've met over the years have never read the bible from cover to cover. A few passages at most....never the entire book.

Yet they act like they are the personal assistants to their god and know everything about their god.

They tend to believe whatever they are told about the bible when it fits with what they want to believe and told to them by someone they respect (because they also spout what they want to believe).

I only mention my grandfather to import that I have been around a lot of Christians. A lot. Oodles. Bunches. Gobs. And not just of one denomination either. Across the board.

rurallib

(62,406 posts)
29. We give the religious folks power gladly out of fear
Wed Jul 9, 2014, 09:40 AM
Jul 2014

O Jesus, O Man In The Sky,
I don't ever want to die so tell me what to do and I will do it. I don't care how insane it sounds. Kill my child for You? You got it! Just give me that "life everlasting."
Who are your messengers here on earth? The priests? The Republican Party? I will do what they say. Just don't let me die!

It is amazing how a threat of something that doesn't exist can make humans do just about anything. Yes, we have come a long ways from the cave dwelling days, have we not? No you say?

kwolf68

(7,365 posts)
36. Did they even know what abortion was at the time?
Wed Jul 9, 2014, 10:43 AM
Jul 2014

To me it's folly to try to squeeze meaning out of a bronze age book that was written in some archaic language and then reinterpreted. The bible seems to be a one size fits all focus...I've seen people use it to preach peace and then have seen war-mongers use it to preach war. The bible is a story full of nebulous innuendo and extreme contradictions...it reads like a poor B movie.

MisterP

(23,730 posts)
37. there's actually numerous old, respectable, robust schools of interpretation
Wed Jul 9, 2014, 02:02 PM
Jul 2014

while fundies are characterized by Orwellian eisegesis: fundies operate by closing off all other means of thought (other than "what some pinko 19th-c. Bedlamites wrote&quot , so they can't even comprehend that other people can think differently from themselves; this is all possible because they're a hermetically-closed system theologically, with "debate" just being "how does McReady Price fit in with (your Leader here's) old-timey prejudices?"

heck, even some exposure to Plato would deal a firm blow to their intellectual inbreeding: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthyphro_dilemma

CBGLuthier

(12,723 posts)
39. Actually it does make one small mention of contraception. Onan.
Wed Jul 9, 2014, 06:01 PM
Jul 2014

He committed a sin by "pulling out" and spilling his seed upon the ground. God did not like that. Some ignorant folk think it meant masturbation but any close reading would tell you otherwise.


Then Judah said to Onan, “Sleep with your brother’s wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to raise up offspring for your brother.” 9 But Onan knew that the child would not be his; so whenever he slept with his brother’s wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from providing offspring for his brother. 10 What he did was wicked in the Lord’s sight; so the Lord put him to death also.

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