No Knock SWAT Raids

[Michigander_Life]

This utilization of this necessary police tool has quickly grown to unnecessary levels. There is no reason to apply for a No Knock search warrant for the vast majority of drug raids -- unless going up against the cartel, we shouldn't ever hear about these things.

No Knock exceptions were designed for the pinnacle of extreme danger and should be utilized in a tiny fraction of police raids: looking for murderers, terrorists, kidnap victims, etc.

The risks are too high and rewards too low to justify a No Knock raid on a low level drug house. This madness has to stop.

[SCUBANOW]

1. no knocks prevent evidence from being destroyed.

Every drug warrant I have helped with we always found someone by the toilet flushing dope. Don't sale dope and you generally don't have to worry about being raided.

[damnedifIknow]

2. That's a hoot

Hell, they get the address wrong all the time.

http://www.businessinsider.com/9-horrifying-botched-police-raids-2012-2?op=1

[FreakinDJ]

3. Did the Dumb Ass Cops Try turning off the WATER First

Fucking Crist

This is their reasoning for throwing flash grenades in to the cribs of babies and shooting innocent children and they can't fucking figure out to TURN THE FUCKING WATER OFF

I Call BULLSHIT

The Cops just want to frighten us into submission

[SCUBANOW]

6. even when you turn off the wager you still one flush.

And in my area people have their own wells

[ieoeja]

28. Cops who raided my brothers house were a laugh riot.

House was empty at the time as my brother and his wife were both at work. But my mother lived next door and came running over when the cops showed up. She called my brother who told her to unlock the door and let them in. So she unlocked the side door.

Nope. Not good enough. They wanted to go in through the front door. Problem is, while the door was still there on the outside, my brother had walled over it on the inside. My mother told them that, but, no they had to go in through the front door. They never did explain to my mother exactly why this was necessary. It just was.

There my mother stood holding a door wide open as the cops unleash their battering ram. Eventually they manage to beat a hole in the door only to find the wall there.

So they give up on that and use the open door instead.

Inside they find my brother's gun safe. My mom writes down the combination and hands it to them.

They crumple up the paper and bring out the drill!


As you say, there was absolutely no point to anything they did except to prove that they could do it.


Oh, and no drugs were found. My brother was "generally" not a drug dealer.

To this day, the cops believe otherwise. I was in a cop bar when a guy who was proven not to have been guilty of a crime was released after two decades in prison. They screamed and howled about this man being let loose. All the evidence in the world didn't matter. They "knew" he was guilty. The guy who confessed after the DNA evidence proved he was guilty instead? Nevermind that, the cops "knew" the other guy did it.

Cops are never fucking wrong.

And don't you forget it!

[ieoeja]

32. Not surprised that got hidden.

Cops are extremely sensitive. Chicago Sun-Times has a reporter who actually comments on that fact from time to time. As a reporter he has said a lot of critical things about a lot of people over the years. But the only time he gets a lot of grief about it is when he dares to criticize a cop.

Most cops hate him. Smarter cops find him confusing. In addition to being the only reporter brave enough to call them "crybabies", he is also the only reporter who routinely shows up for police funerals, ceremonies and fund-raisers. He is hard on them, but he also gives them a forum to be heard.

To "we good; they bad" thinkers that is confusing. You're either with them 100% or against them 100%.

[SCUBANOW]

56. Just a little angry? I'm sure there is more to your story.

[IronGate]

61. You're sure of nothing.

You're damn right I'm angry, I'm angry at the militarization of the nations police forces, I'm angry at the constant brutality of cops and how they get away with their crimes time and time again, I'm angry at how cops think they're the kings and citizens are serfs to be lorded over.

In my 20+ years in the Fire Service, 95% of the cops we I've had to deal with are nothing more than thugs with uniforms on, and that's pretty much how the rest of my collegues feel also.

[ieoeja]

62. Of course there is more.

But completely irrelevant.

I imagine they decided to ignore the open door and written combination was because they had new toys from the Department of Homeland Security. And this was the first time they got to try them out.


The truly irrelevant part would be why they raided my brother's house in the first place. It starts, as all good Rightwing defined "scandals" begin, with a blowjob.

Some gal wanted to give my brother a blowjob. Being a gallant gentleman he bowed to her wish and the lady didst give the good man some good head. Unfortunately the scurrilous maiden was such a wanton that she did brag about said deed to her boyfriend (the blowjob presumably being an attempt to get back at said lad for some unknown previous indiscretion on his part). The boyfriend laid hands upon the lady prompting a visit by the local constabulary who decided, as they are wont to do, that drugs must have played a part. And thus commenced the watch on my brother's person.

Then my brother got elected to the County 4-H Fair Board. One member put together a full slate of candidates against all of his fellow members. My brother was the only one to defeat the incumbent. The man who talked him into running did so because of nefarious goings on, but refused to tell my brother, wanting my brother to verify the man's suspicions independantly. It did not take long.

At his very first Board meeting, the woman in charge of the concession stands submitted a request for reimbursment of $100,000 in supplies. My brother surprised the poor lass by asking for a receipt.

"I didn't save it," she replied.

"Can we see the cancelled check, then?"

"I didn't use a check."

"Can we see the credit card satement?"

"I didn't use a credit card."

"You're telling me that you walked into Wal-Mart with $100,000 in cash?!?"

"Who are you?"

"And didn't I read in the paper that you just opened up a catering business?"

"I don't have to put up with this! I've worked here for years!"

"Hear! Hear!" shouted the other Board members, excepting the man who talked my brother into running for office. The Board quickly sided with the woman, whom they had all known for decades, and who was a good, decent church-going lady with a lovely family. They just knew she was one of the "good" people.

Side not: this is why corruption is so rampant in rural areas. Once you obtain "good" people status, nobody will believe anything bad about you.

After going through all the 4-H Fair channels requesting the State Board for an audit ("only if the entire Country Board votes for it&quot , etc, my brother turned to the Sheriff Department. That would be the police who already believe my brother to be one of the "bad" people.

It probably did not help that the woman in question, unbeknown to my brother, sat on the Peer Review Board of the Sheriff Department.

Thar be Dragons in this tale.

The plot thickens further. A neighbor, a notorious thief and biggest drug dealer in the County, steals my brother's phone and credit card. My brother turns him into the police.

Alas, said man is the biggest drug dealer in the County through the simple expediant of being the County's biggest snitch. Any time competition pops up in the drug trade, he rats the man out to the cops. They view him as their best snitch. He views them as dupes helping him maintain his position atop the drug dealing heirarchy.

The cops do not want to throw their #1 snitch in jail. But they do want to throw my brother in jail. When the snitch's girlfriend is caught by security cameras using my brother's credit card, they bring the two of them into HQ where they ask them if rather than having stolen the card was it possible that my brother gave them the card in payment for his helping my brother in the drug trade and her working as a prostitute.

"Sure, why not," they reply.

And thus was the Keystone Cop raid born. Followed quickly by an announcement that the largest criminal organization outside the state capitol had been broken up and it's leader, my brother, arrested. By coincidence I happend to return for a visit to the family farm that evening. Stopping in town on the way I started hearing the story and everyone's surprise at the news.

As the weekend progressed I went to the bar where all the drug dealers hang out. Last time I stopped at the American Legion a woman accused me of being a devil worshipper. Nay, SCREAMED at me for several long minutes accusing me of worshiping the Great Lord Satan.

You have a choice. Sit next to a man offering to sell you drugs. Or sit next to woman screaming at you for being Satanic. I think you can see why I would choose the former.

Again, it's a rural thing. Most college kids, people who left and come back for a vist, and even local professionals hang out with the drug dealers because, frankly, they're a lot nicer bunch.

Back to the story. I spend an evening in there listening to everyone talk about how shocked they are about my brother's arrest. Something about it was bothering me. Then it finally clicked. "Who were his customers," I asked? "If it isn't any of you people, then just who the hell was he selling to?"

That caused a bit of a consternation. Who was he selling to? By the next evening the bar was full of people saying they'd spoken to everyone they knew and could not turn up a single fact to back up the official story. Suddenly it all began to seem really fishy.

Ultimately, my brother got a good lawyer. When asked under oath about his story, the snitch freely offered up the fact that the cops actually came up with the story, and he was just going along with whatever the cops asked of him. The only thing they had was the marijuana residue on old, dusty pots.

Oh, yes! I forgot this bit about the Keystone Cops raid. They obtained a warrant. My mom heard them after the raid asking the prosecutor to get the warrant. Her testimony would, of course, be worthless. But the cops did not bother post-dating their reports. They put the actual time of the raid on their reports, while the warrant had the actual time it was issued after the raid.

The judge issued a continuance while he considered the motion to disallow the marijuana residue on old, dusty pots. "See you in two months".

The judge issued a continuance while he considered the motion to disallow the marijuana residue on old, dusty pots. "See you in two months".

The judge issued a continuance while he considered the motion to disallow the marijuana residue on old, dusty pots. "See you in two months".

The judge issued a continuance while he considered the motion to disallow the marijuana residue on old, dusty pots. "See you in two months".

The judge issued a continuance while he considered the motion to disallow the marijuana residue on old, dusty pots. "See you in two months".

The judge issued a continuance while he considered the motion to disallow the marijuana residue on old, dusty pots. "See you in two months".

The judge issued a continuance while he considered the motion to disallow the marijuana residue on old, dusty pots. "See you in two months".

The judge issued a continuance while he considered the motion to disallow the marijuana residue on old, dusty pots. "See you in two months".

The judge issued a continuance while he considered the motion to disallow the marijuana residue on old, dusty pots. "See you in two months".

The judge issued a continuance while he considered the motion to disallow the marijuana residue on old, dusty pots. "See you in two months".

The judge issued a continuance while he considered the motion to disallow the marijuana residue on old, dusty pots. "See you in two months".

The judge issued a continuance while he considered the motion to disallow the marijuana residue on old, dusty pots. "See you in two months".

The judge issued a continuance while he considered the motion to disallow the marijuana residue on old, dusty pots. "See you in two months".

The judge issued a continuance while he considered the motion to disallow the marijuana residue on old, dusty pots. "See you in two months".

The judge issued a continuance while he considered the motion to disallow the marijuana residue on old, dusty pots. "See you in two months".

The judge issued a continuance while he considered the motion to disallow the marijuana residue on old, dusty pots. "See you in two months".

Brother's lawyer can't do anything. Only one judge in the County. Did I mention this was in a rural area where corruption is rampant?

My brother, suspended from work during this ordeal and out of money, was bankrupted into taking a plea deal on possession of marijuana residue on old, dusty pots. After a year of home detention, my brother went back to his job as a Rural Letter Carrier for the US Post Office. There was some dispute about that in which the Union actually made a forcible defense of my brother. His customers were thrilled as apparently his replacements weren't all that good at the job. One of them was pretty pissed as she thought she was going to get the job.

I guess she joins my brother as a victim in all of this.




Wondering what happened to the woman running the concession stands, aren't you? A few years later the large contingent of teenage 4-H members who worked the concession stands that year during Fair stormed a 4-H Fair Board meeting demanding that the woman be fired.

They said they were tired of her stealing money.

She is, alas, still a "good" person in the community. But no longer working Fair.

[SCUBANOW]

63. Yep, there was more to the story.

[Kingofalldems]

66. Dismissive are we. Is that how you treat citizens?

[SCUBANOW]

67. not dismissive, just after 20 yrs you learn there is alway more to the story then is orginal stated

[Brigid]

5. "Generally?"

Are you for real?

[Orrex]

14. Careful!

Rock the boat like that and you'll wind up on a watch list...

[SCUBANOW]

48. "for real" yes w/20 years experience.

[Brigid]

49. You never heard of cops going to the wrong address?

There are stories about this all the time in the media. To me, that means no one is safe.

[IronGate]

53. And I have 20+ years dealing with asshole cops

who act like they're king shit and citizens are their serf's.
I have zero respect for the majority of cops where I live and work, especially the younger ones.

[SCUBANOW]

55. From the tone of your post I can see why!

[IronGate]

58. No, you don't see why.

You have no idea of my contempt for the cops, along with the majority of my comrades in the Fire Service.
The cops in our city are nothing more than steroid laden asshole thugs who view the citizens with contempt, especially those that live in the poorer parts of our city.
Any cop who thinks these no knock raids for low level crimes are, IMO, to be viewed with the strongest contempt possible.

[SCUBANOW]

64. Again I can see you have other issues that have nothing to do with law enforement.

[IronGate]

65. Again, you see nothing Carnac.

And it's not just me, the citizens view the cops in our little city with nothing but contempt and mistrust.

[Taitertots]

7. So what. Are a few low level drug busts worth the cost

How many innocent lives are acceptable?
How many traumatized children are acceptable?

It seems like some people are so afraid of low level drug dealers that they accept egregious police behavior.

[NightWatcher]

9. Why the fuck is SWAT raiding a low level drug house?

Do some surveillance and grab them when they come out to roll their trash to the curb. The odds of someone being armed when they check the mail or make a grocery run go down greatly. No-knock raids are thugish tools employed by overzealous paramilitary cops in the case of low level operations.

[Warren DeMontague]

21. ...

[NightWatcher]

29. if these guys like machine guns and tanks, enlist

I'm sure Uncle Sam would send you somewhere to shoot brown people....if it weren't for the fact that you weren't a pudgy, sluggish redneck with a 3rd grade education.

[Comrade Grumpy]

10. You don't mind risking getting your head blown off over a few bags of dope?

You come breaking down doors, screaming and yelling, bursting into peoples' houses in the middle of the night, you stand a good risk of getting met by an armed, freaked-out homeowner. This is America, after all.

Cops get killed doing this stuff. And, frankly, if you came to my house in the middle of the night on one of those home invasion raids, I'd be ready to shoot your ass, too. Are you cops or robbers? Who knows?

Although many more civilians do. They pick up a gun when they hear all the racket in the middle of the night and they end up dead at the cops' hands.

[Savannahmann]

12. Gee, I don't know why I don't buy that nonsense.

Could it be this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathryn_Johnston_shooting

Or perhaps this?

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/11/nyregion/two-suits-filed-over-police-no-knock-raids-at-wrong-homes.html

But your excuse, the suspects are flushing drugs down the toilet. How much do they have if they are able to get it down the toilet in one flush? We must be talking about pretty small amounts. So if that is the status of the war on drugs in your area, I'm thinking the war is won, since only the smallest amounts are out there available, and we can cut funding for that program.

I'd list the ones where cops died doing a no knock warrant on minimal amounts of drugs, but I'm sure you use that as a justification to show how you need the no knock warrants.

[Warren DeMontague]

15. THE IMPORTANT THING IS THAT THEY GET TEH DRUGS

If a few babies or innocent grannies have to be blown up, thats the price we pay to stay safe from people sparking a joint in their own living room.

[Warren DeMontague]

16. I hear some of those pot smoking drug kingpins have REALLY big toilets

They could be trying to flush a graf zeppelin sized joint down a 30 foot tall crapper

[Warren DeMontague]

13. Maybe our tax dollars have better things to do than send SWAT teams to arrest pot smokers

That drug war gravy choo-choo isnt going to run forever. Sorry.

[aikoaiko]

17. If the stash is so small that it can vanish in one flush, you screwed up as LEO.

Last edited Thu Jul 10, 2014, 02:51 PM - Edit history (1)

[Throd]

18. I imagine there are a lot of things you can justify.

[IronGate]

19. ???

Most of the cops I've interacted with during the course of my employment have been egotistical, steroid laden pricks and I wouldn't trust them with a BB gun, much less a real gun.

[LordGlenconner]

23. Most have literally no skills

I hate painting with a broad brush but I've been around a shit ton of them in my career and generally these are the guys who would literally be working minimum wage jobs in the food service industry or something similar without a police job.

[geek tragedy]

24. jury results

On Thu Jul 10, 2014, 10:33 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

???
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5222002

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

This kind of broad brush attack doesn't advance our cause. It's over the top and firmly against the terms of service.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Thu Jul 10, 2014, 10:42 AM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Juries don't deal with TOS as per skinner. Just community standard violations.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: It's cop hate, but most DUers hate cops, so vote to keep as within community standards. Those who object to hating and stereotyping all cops need to let it go--that battle has been fought and lost.
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: "It's over the top and firmly against the terms of service." No it isn't. Alerter needs to allow people to express their opinion. The alterted post is that poster's opinion.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[IronGate]

25. Somebody alerted on my first hand experience with cops?

Thanks for the results.

[geek tragedy]

26. 1-6 is a pretty decisive verdict.

[ChisolmTrailDem]

30. Yea, pretty useless alert...

[IronGate]

31. Yes it was,

and the funny thing is that I wasn't actually making a broad brush attack as the alerter claimed, I was speaking of the cops I've had the misfortune to have to deal with in my line of work.

[ChisolmTrailDem]

34. I don't believe there is a cop alive above rookie grade that does't know deep

in his heart and mind that the bad rep cops enjoy (not), on the whole, is well-deserved.

[ieoeja]

35. That is exactly what I was going to comment on regarding Juror #3.

Their "stereotype" comment made no sense. You were talking about real life experience with the cops you personally know. Not "stereotyped" talk about cops you do not know.

[MindPilot]

43. DU has become an authoritarian badge sniffer's paradise

Say anything bad about the police state or the minions who serve it and you time here is limited.

[Niceguy1]

59. no doubt

[arcane1]

36. Flushable toilets trump the 4th amendment every time.

This is why epithets like "pig" are still in popular use.

[frylock]

38. whoop-de-fucking-doo..

it's the draconian drugs laws, laws I'm sure you support whole heartedly, that are the greater issue. so someone flushed an oz of weed down the toilet. life or death situ there, eh?

[Aristus]

40. Check your regulator, SCUBANOW.

You're showing signs of brain hypoxia...

[In_The_Wind]

42. .

[SomethingFishy]

46. Pretty soon most "Dope" will be legal

and cops will need to find something better to do than harass stoners.

Gee we legalized marijuana in Colorado and the first two things that happened were... tax revenues are up and crime is down. Go figure.

[killbotfactory]

51. So they can flush all evidence if you give them 30 seconds to open the door before you bust it in?

What bullshit.

If that's how little dope they have, there is absolutely no reason for putting people in danger with a no-knock raid.

Completely disgusting justification.

[ecstatic]

54. Is that worth someone's life? Especially a child? NO!

I'd rather someone keep or flush their "dope" than have a grenade thrown into a child's crib. Not to mention, the cops might have the wrong house. smfh

[politicat]

57. And it's so hard to place a trap at the public end of the sewer?

The public end is city/county property if it's connected to a municipal water system. (If it's on a septic tank, then it only goes one place.) How the building handles black water is a matter of public record and available if they do the research. (Though since they seem incapable of reading the address with anything approaching 95% accuracy, I can see why plumbing might be a bit technical.)

It seems logical that prep for a major warrant would be to send what appears to be a city truck out to trap at the street level. Serve the warrant normally, record the full service, and get audio and video of the suspect flushing repeatedly, with the results tapped, tagged and admitted as evidence. (Oh, right, the problem being that cops don't like being on video since it shows their failures.)

It's safer -- no knocks are notorious for being wrong and hurting bystanders. It's more complete -- getting the evidence of the controlled substance and the demolition of it.

[morningfog]

60. Cool story bro!

Utter bullshit.

[ieoeja]

4. I had to laugh at Conservative's outrage over the Branch Dividian raid.

They were really upset that they would raid the place without knocking on the door and presenting a warrant. They were the people who forced through the No-Knock Warrant in the first place. They were outraged to discover it was not only being used againt those people.

I also remember when the law was being passed. A Democrat proposed an amendment. Republican after Republican took the podium to denounce the amendment. They mostly laughed at the amendment since it would completely invalidate the entire law. What would be the point of passing the law with an amendment that then cancels out the law? The amendment they denounced read:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Finally, a late arriving Republican took the podium to inform his fellow Republicans that this was a verbatim copy of the 4th Amendment, and that it might not be a good idea to tell everyone the law they were passing was in violation of the 4th Amendment.

So Republicans passed the law believing it was unconstitutional. Something they have done many times knowing they could score political points while the courts would prevent any real damage being done.

They did not realize the US Supreme Court had abandoned all pretense of enforcing the Constitution.

[PowerToThePeople]

8. It was not just conservatives upset about that raid.

It was one of the first "show of force" against US citizens by militarized police forces. It was wrong.

[arcane1]

37. Agreed.

[DirkGently]

20. A supposed special "exception" that has become the rule.

All of these "no-knock," S.W.A.T. flash-bang / battering ram / shoot the dogs raids appear to involve suspicion of small-time drug dealers.

The police desire to prevent evidence from being "flushed" is simply not enough justification for the paramilitary tactics being used. So the drugs get flushed. Too bad. The number of injuries, deaths, and overall trauma being inflicted is already more than catching a dope peddler is worth, never mind the fact they don't even bother to get the address right much of the time anyway.

Enough. Way more than enough, actually.

[Ichingcarpenter]

22. No Knock SWAT raids on $25 poker and Frat partys plus moree

SUNDAY, JUL 7, 2013 Salon


“Why did you shoot me? I was reading a book”: The new warrior cop is out of control
SWAT teams raiding poker games and trying to stop underage drinking? Overwhelming paramilitary force is on the rise


ManyTales of horror, abuse and how they get around even getting a warrant.


http://www.salon.com/2013/07/07/%E2%80%9Cwhy_did_you_shoot_me_i_was_reading_a_book_the_new_warrior_cop_is_out_of_control/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

[frylock]

39. but they could've flushed the cards down the toilet derp!12

[rustydog]

27. So, the local gang members who run drugs

and shoot people for wearing the wrong colors in the wrong part of town are not a threat to police in drug raids?

Did it hurt much when you pulled that out of your derriere?

[Savannahmann]

33. Let's say that they are.

Just for the sake of argument, let's say they are a threat to police. So now, all drug users that they search for are gang color wearing homicidal maniacs? Seriously? That's your argument?

The bad guy wasn't even there. http://www.salon.com/2014/06/24/a_swat_team_blew_a_hole_in_my_2_year_old_son/

But the baby got in the way, and that's just the sort of thing you have to do as a cop. Oh, no drugs, no bad guy, nothing but wounded innocents.

Kathryn Johnston. A little old lady who lived in one of those neighborhoods, thought that the banging on her door in the wee hours of the morning was gang members busing in to rob or murder her. Instead it was the cops. She had no drugs,

So we're talking Officer Safety. How many cops died in the line of duty last year? 30 died from gunfire in 2013.

How many were killed by police? 46 people died at the hands of police in January 2013. I didn't have the stomach to count the other months, perhaps you could help. Was January a good month, or bad month for people killed by police? Did the over or under win on the bets?

So in one month of the year, more people died by police, than police officers died from gunfire all year. So far, it looks a lot safer to be a cop, than a civilian who deals with cops.

A grand total of 105 cops died in the line in 2013, More than 40 died in automobile related incidents including pursuits, automobile accidents, struck by vehicle, and assault with a vehicle. Yet for some reason they don't wear bright colors like the rest of the people who work around the roads. Why not wear a safety vest and oh I don't know, perhaps we could come up with some sort of restraint that would hold the occupant of the vehicle in the seat. I see cops all the time, and never see one of them wearing a seat belt. Despite the fact that they are more likely to die in a vehicle related incident, they all want to wear black and look bad instead of bright colors where the driver of a car might see and avoid them while driving down the road.

OSHA requires that people who work alongside roads wear bright safety vests and all that. Cops, not so much, it might make them easier to see, or something.

So what have we established as fact? It is far safer to be a cop than a civilian who deals with the police. The police are more likely to die by automobile related incidents instead of gunfire, but still won't wear their seat belts. Now, are there any other questions or excuses about how tough it is to be a civilian who deals with a cop?

[Michigander_Life]

41. Is a no knock raid the answer in such a case?

How about arrest them when they go to mcdonalds for lunch and then raid their homes after?

[killbotfactory]

52. I guess it's okay, so long as they are "gang-members" and you only terrorize "urban" communities. nt

[GeorgeGist]

44. Ammosexuals are everywhere ...

and they enjoy killing.

[TheKentuckian]

45. End the stupid and utterly failed drug war and 99.9% of the danger evaporates.

Necessary tool to what end? Setting off a gun fight?

[Michigander_Life]

47. Did you miss this?

No Knock exceptions were designed for the pinnacle of extreme danger and should be utilized in a tiny fraction of police raids: looking for murderers, terrorists, kidnap victims, etc.

[TheKentuckian]

50. Nope, nor did I miss that abuse is far more likely than the sales pitch

Probably by something like 100,000 to 1.

The instances of such situations are so low that I'd prefer to use pardon power to offset the "crime" than to make such a thing a part of the legal toolbox.

Add in the poor outcomes of even the most legitimate uses and I just cannot come up with enough upside to justify the risks and side effects.

Governing toward one offs is poor logic and leads to too damn much "who would have ever guessed" moments. Free clue, the same folks the formally blasé or adamant, now hand wringers were ignoring and shouting down all the time.

At some point optimism becomes an anchor distorting reality and making good and even sensible choices either nearly impossible and/or achievable by blind luck alone.

Shit, you threw in terrorism which is something that might be frighteningly vividly defined in your mind but in actual real world application becomes almost infinitely vague and more abuse ready than present foolhardy and wickedly stupid application in common use today.

Too hasty to act and quicker to forget the folly of the quick and easy paths taken in vain efforts to create illusions of safety while fomenting greater dangers in the natural course of doing business on these poorly considered reactions.

A damn mob on strings spurred by the treacherous, the greedy, and the insane rather than a society of free people.

[woo me with science]

68. K&R