9 Clueless Things White People Do When Confronted With Racism

[gollygee]

I could have titled this "Why Reverse Racism Isn't Real 2.0" but I used the article's actual title instead.

http://www.dailydot.com/opinion/clueless-things-white-people-say-racism/

3) “Talking about issues in terms of ‘white people’ and ‘white privilege’ is reverse racism.”

About that reverse racism thing... it doesn’t exist. It’s no secret that it is humanly possible for a person of color to be prejudiced against whites. Sometimes, it’s an attitude that develops over time because their experience with racism has drawn them to the conclusion that no “good” white people exist in the world. And although there’s a lot of healing that needs to happen in that much more seldom instance of prejudice, the attitude itself doesn’t come with an entire system of benefits and institutional power that being white affords in America. That’s the difference between racism and prejudice, because racism at its root is about supremacy.

4) “You [person of color] clearly don’t know what racism is. According to Webster’s Dictionary...”

Don’t do it. Step away from this infantilizing situation to avoid being a white person dictating how racism works to a person of color, despite their actual lived experiences with it. As for how Webster’s and other dictionaries defines the issue? The oversimplification is a topic that merits an entire thesis.

[el_bryanto]

1. That number 4 is very irritating

It stems from a couple of things, all of which are varying degrees of insulting
* - A need for control over the terms of the debate.
* - The habitual assumption that white males are more logical and rational than people of color or woman.
* - A lack of desire to empathize with or understand what the other person is saying. You don't have to agree with everything a woman or a person of color says, but you can at least make the effort to understand what they are saying and to empathize with where they are coming from.

Bryant

[Igel]

25. Your first point is very interesting.

And accurate.

I was taught that before debating you have to agree on the terms. I have a wide range of meanings for "racism" and insist on a single definition per proposition. But others need to define the terms of the debate in very uncompromising ways. Unfortunately, the term shifts during the course of the conversation--but there is always one uncompromising definition at any given time, even as that definition shifts. In a very one-sided way.

Hence the problem. And that's why it's both your first and, ultimately, your second point. Leading to the real third point, lack of empathy. The empathy must come first, and then grounds for justifying the need for empathy found--sometimes rooted in verifiable fact, more as often rooted in perception. I think this is backwards. But I see why it has to be backwards--it's hard to argue with belief and perception because they're personal, so definitions have to be personal. Not consensual.

But unless you agree on your terms, there is no understanding. Unless by "understanding" we really mean "empathy," "sympathy," or "appreciation." But that's also changing definitions in a way that was really fashionable in the '80s and '90s.

[el_bryanto]

29. Well it depends on what the point to the discussion is

If the point is to win a philosophical point or to justify oneself, than you have to stake out your territory very clearly.

Generally, in this debate, when one insists on a specific meaning for the word racism, they are doing it to close off the other side of the debate. And I guess that's the point there - what could be a discussion leading to understanding, has become a debate which leads to victory (but usually not the sort of victory worth winning) or defeat.

Bryant

[redqueen]

90. Very well said. nt

[1StrongBlackMan]

92. Or, ...

Well it depends on what the point to the discussion is. If the point is to win a philosophical point or to justify oneself, than you have to stake out your territory very clearly.

The insistence on a particular definition can be to inform the participants of the state, and body of work, that the study of racism has yielded. To rely on the "Webster's" definition of racism is to ignore the advances in our understanding of the phenomena. Or, as one DUer put it:

For most of human history, we 'understood' that the sun revolved around the earth. If there had been dictionaries a thousand years ago, they would have probably defined the sun as 'a large glowing object that orbits the earth'.

But we learned, we grew, and now we know better.

Still, some cling to definitions of racism first written before the Civil Rights movement and the rise of racial studies. The equivalent of clinging to notions of orbital mechanics that predate Copernicus and Galileo.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5238319

[el_bryanto]

95. I should be clear here

My definition of racism tends towards the one you express, but I still think it's worthwhile to understand where the other person is coming from to ensure that there isn't any confusion and you don't get hung up on terms but get down to the ideas. I think that's something people on all sides of this debate could do and should do (and many of them do do).

Bryant

[nomorenomore08]

155. One person "wins" without having learned anything or become any better of a human being.

And if they're satisfied with that, then I kind of feel sorry for them.

[AlbertCat]

47. A need for control over the terms of the debate.

Uh.... aren't you doing that by ignoring the actual meaning of the word?

[el_bryanto]

84. No. Because word meaning is extremely fluid and anybody who doesn't know that

is a child. Taking a moment to understand the ideas expressed by the words is always worth doing.

Bryant

[AlbertCat]

85. Taking a moment to understand the ideas expressed by the words is always worth doing.

A good place to start with that is....


the dreaded dictionary!



But as I've said about 10 times in this wretched thread already:

You must define your terms if you want to make a point. Otherwise, we'll just assume you mean the actual dictionary meanings of the word.

[el_bryanto]

93. So you feel that people, in order to argue with you, need to use the dictionary definition

And if they don't - than it's on them if you don't understand them? Do you take any responsibility for trying to understand other people, including how they use their words, or do you see that as a waste of time?

Bryant

[1StrongBlackMan]

96. Or, importantly, ...

Do you take any responsibility for trying to understand other people, including how they use their words,

Why they find the dictionary's definition problematic.

[AlbertCat]

106. Do you take any responsibility for trying to understand other people, including how they use their

words.

If someone wants to make a point....especially in writing, they should be clear about what they mean. It's up to them to communicate their thoughts clearly as possible. (a dictionary can facilitate this)

I can translate as best I can, but then that's MY guess as to what they might mean. If I get it wrong, it's not my fault they were unclear. They need to explain it to me...or whomever.... so we can understand them instead of just huffing and puffing because they don't have the vocab to express themselves clearly.

[1StrongBlackMan]

116. Okay, what would help you understand the deficiency of Webster's ...

definition of racism ... pointing to the reams of peer reviewed articles on the subject, clearly hasn't.

And before you ask ... Google the string: "Peer reviewed articles defining racism as bigotry plus power."

There are 900,000+ hits ... here is but one: http://www.jcu.edu/education/dshutkin/fys/fys59_defining_racism_can_we_talk.pdf

[AlbertCat]

99. Oh pul-leez

What are you talking about now?


They need to DEFINE THEIR TERMS.... unless they mean the dictionary definition.

Words have meanings, that's how we understand what people are saying.

BTW... you really are doing a lousy job of understanding me.


Arguing for argument's sake and overly emotional about the subject. How's that for understanding what you're saying?

[el_bryanto]

108. I understand that you feel that the dictionary definition is the only one you need to know

You can understand someone without agreeing with them - it's fallacy to assume that if everyone understood your point they'd agree with you.

If you are accusing me of arguing for arguments sake and of being overly emotional about the subject, I respectfully disagree.

Bryant

[AlbertCat]

111. understand that you feel that the dictionary definition is the only one you need to know

Again...putting words in my mouth that I never said does not make you look too bright.

Perhaps you need a dictionary to understand my vocabulary... because you are just making things up.

[AlbertCat]

115. It's a waste of time

It certainly adds to the workload of understanding. Thank goodness the article wasn't in Sanskrit!

I get the feeling these are the kinds of people who don't know how to use "to", "too", and "two". (they all mean the same thing...right?)

[el_bryanto]

121. I don't know if this is a dig at me

I have made typos in the past, but if it gives you some small satisfaction to feel superior to me on those grounds, go for it.

Bryant

[AlbertCat]

130. I don't know if this is a dig at me

Not unless you don't know the meaning of "to" "too" and "two".... all of which can be found in the dictionary.


Typos are always forgiven.... even fun sometimes! Like spoonerisms and malapropisms.

[1StrongBlackMan]

118. And when those people's "made up definition for words" ...

reflect the 50+ years of academic work of sociologists?

[1StrongBlackMan]

122. Really ...

the scientists that research and report on observable phenomena doesn't change anything? Really?

[AlbertCat]

125. Really

See:
"Theory"


as in "The Theory of Evolution"

vs

"It's only a theory"


OMG....words can have more than ONE MEANING!!!!! (but both are in the dictionary in this case)

Or how about: From a Handel oratorio: "He shall listen to my awful voice."

Is her voice terrible? No it is "full of awe".

Meanings change .... but both are in the dictionary (one marked "obsolete&quot

But remember....dictionaries are useless and mean nothing!

[1StrongBlackMan]

137. In the words of another DUer ...

For most of human history, we 'understood' that the sun revolved around the earth. If there had been dictionaries a thousand years ago, they would have probably defined the sun as 'a large glowing object that orbits the earth'.

But we learned, we grew, and now we know better.

Still, some cling to definitions of racism first written before the Civil Rights movement and the rise of racial studies. The equivalent of clinging to notions of orbital mechanics that predate Copernicus and Galileo.

[JustAnotherGen]

134. You see what's happening 1strong?

Stop - society never wants to address the core issues.

By keeping us in the 'Reagan-esque Spin Factor' of semantics/linguistics - the responsibility for the experience of racism, prejudice, bigotry is put at your feet and mine.

We don't own this. It's not ours.

[smirkymonkey]

158. I'm white and this crap is infuriating me!

I wonder if people like this are being willfully obtuse or if they just like to antagonize members of society's less powerful groups.

[CBGLuthier]

180. Of course they are being willfully obtuse.

Prime example in this thread with a certain poster's obsession with the dictionary. Nothing else about racism matters to that poster except that people follow his dictionary definition. Nice derailing of the entire topic.

[smirkymonkey]

192. Yes, no understanding of the reality of the situation.

They just derail by focusing on the "dictionary definition". It really makes me sick.

[AlbertCat]

123. reflect the 50+ years of academic work of sociologists?

If lay people use it that way....

it gets put in the dictionary!

[1StrongBlackMan]

128. Okay. eom.

[JustAnotherGen]

135. Oh boy that saltnpepa

Sure did get a swift kick in the ass!

[el_bryanto]

143. I'm mildly annoyed - had to go to lunch, and apparently her response to me was hidden

by a jury decision and then deleted entirely. When I rile someone up I like to know why.

Bryant

[1StrongBlackMan]

145. I was done with that Poster ...

when they posted this winner:

(Re: Bigotry + Power arguments)
That's all it is, and all the citing of social scientists, and academic studies, and increased understanding of the "racism phenomena" is just bullshit to muddy the waters.

[AgingAmerican]

138. Sociologists acknowledge/define both individual and institutional racism

People become fixated on one or the other, when both prevail.

People attempt to define the term so that it doesn't apply to themself.

[1StrongBlackMan]

139. Please conduct this Google Search ...

"Peer reviewed articles defining racism as bigotry plus power."

There are 900,000+ hits ... here is but one: http://www.jcu.edu/education/dshutkin/fys/fys59_defining_racism_can_we_talk.pdf

Sociologists acknowledge/define both individual and institutional racism.

People become fixated on one or the other, when both prevail.

People attempt to define the term so that it doesn't apply to themself.

This view does not reflect the current state of study on the topic.

[AgingAmerican]

147. You are being disingenuous

If you search for a specific, literal meaning as you just did, you will get specific, literal hits.

The 'current state of study on the topic' does not pretend that individual racism does not exist, sorry. Individual racism exists whether you can bring yourself to acknowledge it, or not.

You just gave a perfect example of what I am talking about.

[1StrongBlackMan]

148. Okay. ...

please continuing ignoring what the social scientists observe and report in favor of what they said 50+ years ago.

[AgingAmerican]

149. Show evidence

Where did you read that Sociologists only study institutional racism and ignore individual racism? Also, please link to where you read that Sociologists studied individual racism 50 years ago, but that they no longer do now.

You are pushing one view and ignoring all others. Why do you insist on doing this? Do you believe that individuals cannot be racists?

[1StrongBlackMan]

150. The evidence is that

Post-Civil Rights Era Sociologists have incorporated ...he institutional aspect into the definition of racism ... and individual racism is individual conduct that supports/is supported by the institutional/systemic frame. (You would have found that had you read, even the single link that I posted).

I am "push" the view of those that are reporting on the findings of their work.

Do you believe that individuals cannot be racists?

I believe, based on the current state of racism academics, that anyone can be BIGOTED; but only those with institutional/systemic power can be racist.

[AgingAmerican]

169. Zero evidence forthcoming

"I believe, based on the current state of racism academics, that anyone can be BIGOTED; but only those with institutional/systemic power can be racist."

This is a prime example of a self serving definition.

You should educate yourself on the current state of racism academics. Here is a good start.

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Introduction_to_Sociology/Race_and_Ethnicity

[1StrongBlackMan]

170. Maybe you should have actually read what you linked to ...

Wiki not withstanding, as citing to Wiki would earn you an "F" in academia.

Expressions of Racism[edit]

Racism may be expressed individually and consciously, through explicit thoughts, feelings, or acts, or socially and unconsciously, through institutions that promote inequalities among races.

How can a PoC act to "promote inequalities among races"?

Further, if you were to actually read the cited to references, you would see that the "everyone can be Racist" frame are all pre-2000 (actually, pre-1990) works; the more current references indicate the "racism is bigotry + power" frame, where the is no "individual" racism without the institutional/systemic power that one possesses.

But it is clear you wish to remain in the past ... so, whatever!

[AgingAmerican]

171. More self serving nonsense

Blacks can be racists.
Asians can be racists.
Whites can be racists.
Native Americans can be racists.
Hispanics can be racist.
Australian Aborigines can be racists.

I can be potentially racist.
and YOU can be potentially racist.

Anyone of any skin color can be racist and no amount of 'redefining words' changes any of that, and you know it.

[1StrongBlackMan]

172. Bullsh!t, as the link you posted demonstrated; but ...

because you must cling to an antiqued notion of what racism is ... you retreat from academics and fall back to "It is because I say it is."

I would only hope that when you retreat to your "liberal closet" ... that space where academic study is actually respected and informing ... you will conclude that your argument is NOT of this century and serves to promote the racial status quo.

[AgingAmerican]

173. You didn't bother reading what I posted

Obviously. You keep claiming to have your finger on the pulse of the state of the art of Sociological academia, but you offer no evidence to back such a claim. No evidence is forthcoming, obviously.

So individual racism is antiquated and no longer exists? Do you realize there are many forms of racism, all studied by Sociologists?

Here are the various expressions of racism as studied in Sociology:

Individual-Level Racism
Structural Racism
Cultural Racism
Historical Racism
Racial Profiling
Color-Blind Racism
Genocide
etc...

There are many types of racism. Not just the single one you agree with.

[1StrongBlackMan]

175. LOL ...

I didn't read what I quoted from?

You argue that I don't provide evidence of the current state of the art of Sociological academia; but you ignore what I post indicating the state of the art of Sociological academia.

You argue that there are many forms of racism, all studied by Sociologists" ... and I produce a 21st century academia indicating that racism is Bigotry + power.

I'm as done with this discussion as I am with those republicans that argue "trickle-down economics" is empirically supportable.

Peace.

[AgingAmerican]

176. You provide no evidence of anything

You just fixate on one form of racism, and pretend all the others don't exist.

No evidence forthcoming.

Have a nice evening!

[1StrongBlackMan]

179. Bullsh!t ...

First, there is only one form of racism.

Secondly, what I am writing is NOT about my opinion, it's what the social scientists report from their study of the phenomena.

Lastly, what evidence would you accept? I provided you with a search string; you didn't search ... I provided you with a peer reviewed article (from this century); you didn't read it ... You provided an Wiki article, I quoted from that article; you still claim that I've provided no evidence.

I'm starting to feel like I'm debating climate change with a republican!

[AgingAmerican]

181. There are many, many forms of racism

As you well know. I listed several of the forms of racism that are studied in sociology, but you cannot accept them because they doesn't fit your absurd narrative that only WHITE people can possibly be racists.

No, you have provided zero evidence that the one form of racism that you are fixated on is the only one that exists. None exists because you made it up.

And nowhere in the link I provided does it say what you claim that only one form of racism exists. Nowhere.

[1StrongBlackMan]

182. There are many manifestations of racism ...

and if you would bother to educate yourself, rather than clinging to antiquated concepts ... I've provided you the resources ... you would know that the scientists (from this century) that observe and report on the phenomena, indicate that racism is supportive of/a function of institutional power.

And nowhere in the link I provided does it say what you claim that only one form of racism exists. Nowhere.

Because you disagree with what SOCIAL SCIENTISTS are writing on the subject, doesn't mean that I haven't provided said evidence. I refer you, again ... maybe you will read it this time ... to http://www.jcu.edu/education/dshutkin/fys/fys59_defining_racism_can_we_talk.pdf, (page 7, et seq.)

From your Wiki post:

Expressions of Racism

Racism may be expressed individually and consciously, through explicit thoughts, feelings, or acts, or socially and unconsciously, through institutions that promote inequalities among races.

What "institutions", in America, promote Black over white inequalities?

But I'm done with this discussion with you. I will leave you happily denying racial science ... just like the conservatives that deny climate science. And just as in climate science, nothing will be done about our toxic environment because the status quo is being clung to by those refusing to accept the science.

[AgingAmerican]

183. What 'antiquated forms of racism' am I 'holding onto'?

That many forms of racism exist? You are in deep, deep denial.

[1StrongBlackMan]

184. Maybe; but then, so are the social scientists that I base my "deep denial" upon. eom.

[AgingAmerican]

185. You have yet to post your source

The one you claim says the social science world only recognizes a single form of racism. I eagerly anticipate it, if it exists.

[1StrongBlackMan]

186. I've posted one of the over 900,000 peer reviewed articles ...

but you would have to actually read it.

I'm done. You are demonstrating that conservatives are not the only anti-intellectuals on the internutzzz.

Well, maybe you haven't ... preserving the status quo ... in the face of evidence ... is not a particularly liberal position.

[AgingAmerican]

187. That is flat out dishonest

There are not 900,000 peer reviewed articles that say what you claim.

You are in deep, deep denial.

[1StrongBlackMan]

188. Okay. eom.

[AgingAmerican]

189. I did your google search

It found 2 peer reviewed articles that state what you claim, not 900,000.

Here is what the results say:

About 922,000 results (0.77 seconds)

Scholarly articles for Peer reviewed articles defining racism as bigotry plus power.
" Why are all the Black kids sitting together in the … - ‎Tatum - Cited by 2554
What is" Racism" in Antiracist Education? - ‎Blum - Cited by 10

No results found for "Peer reviewed articles defining racism as bigotry plus power.".
Results for Peer reviewed articles defining racism as bigotry plus power. (without quotes):

These sort of issues will never be worked out without absolute honesty on all sides.

Have a nice day.

[1StrongBlackMan]

191. Okay. eom.

[Hofbrau]

174. A child knows that there is a difference between the gradual change...

... that naturally occurs to a few words over time and merely declaring that a word has a brand new definition to suit a purpose.

Double points for making the word more restrictive and less descriptive.

[el_bryanto]

110. So who are the real racists in your opinion - those who are genuinely racist? nt

[el_bryanto]

114. OK - now you understand that institutional power does enforce white privilege?

Or do you deny that a black person's experience with racial animosity is substantially different than a white person's experience experience with racial animosity?

Bryant

[el_bryanto]

120. So you think institutional racism is over? Do you think affirmative action programs are still

valuable?

And as for the second part - if you are willing to accept that a black persons experience with racial animosity is different than a white persons, than why are you dead set against clarifying or evolving the dictionary definition? While there are other ways to express the idea, I suppose, why not be generous and use racial animosity to refer to generalized disdain that any race might have for another race, while reserving racism for those instances of racial animosity where one side is clearly more powerful than the other?

Bryant

[1StrongBlackMan]

124. Wow ...

That's all it is, and all the citing of social scientists, and academic studies, and increased understanding of the "racism phenomena" is just bullshit to muddy the waters.

Just wow!

[PeaceNikki]

142. Did someone get PPR'd? Was that a n00b troll or someone with a history??

[1StrongBlackMan]

144. Yep. Saltnpepper ...

Or something like that.

I can't believe any liberal would say that?!? I mean just flat out scream, "I am ignorant and will remain proudly and indignantly ignorant!"

[PeaceNikki]

146. I totally missed what was said.

Seems like that's a good thing, though.

yeesh

[KurtNYC]

2. I still like this advice:

[DesertDiamond]

31. WOW! This is SO right on!!

[valerief]

45. Excellent point! nt

[1StrongBlackMan]

98. Agreed; but ...

more often than not, as the video points out), when PoC say: "what you did/said was racist", the other person HEARS, "You are a racist", even though that was not what was said.

[Warpy]

131. Nice but wordy. I prefer

"What the fuck is the matter with you?"

Sometimes you need to go to the heart of the matter to shock them out of whatever well worn rut their brains are stuck in.

It's only at that point you can have a "what you said is racist" conversation.

[smirkymonkey]

159. Hear, hear!

Sometimes, the polite approach just doesn't get through.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

3. Whoops, the linked article says 9, not 8.

They must have added another while you were posting Still, I'm surprised the number is even that low.

You certainly see all nine of those here on DU as well as on other blogs.

Number 10, btw - 'People of any race can be racist' which goes hand in hand with #4.

And I'll pull out and highlight that last couple of lines of number 4 again

As for how Webster’s and other dictionaries defines the issue? The oversimplification is a topic that merits an entire thesis.

[gollygee]

4. I must have mis-typed

Thanks

[msanthrope]

5. 10) They make threads about gefilte fish. nt

[JustAnotherGen]

9. +10000

11. They play innocent when they know they are just a vicious snot at heart. Like - it's what they really believe.


^Not talking about DU - talking about the backtracking types - like the fox news guy who slipped and said (forgive me for writing this) "Chinamen" then played all I'm sorry and I didn't mean it.

Yes you fucking did buster.

Now own it.

[msanthrope]

71. Nailed it. nt

[Baitball Blogger]

6. Truly superb article. Thank you for posting.

The comment that resonated the most:

'That’s the difference between racism and prejudice, because racism at its root is about supremacy."

[Nye Bevan]

7. Happy to confirm that I have never said any of those things.

And I suspect that most white DUers haven't, either. "Stop attacking me for having privileges just because I’m white"? People really say stuff like that?

[Capt. Obvious]

10. You're in that other thread

Saying this: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025234507#post33

Others are quoting the dictionary in that thread as well.

[JustAnotherGen]

12. Thanks and please note

It is published (believe they all are) by a 1% guy. . . You know - wealthy, plutocrat, oligarch -


I can't believe the people that rant and rave about people who have money in America that then worship at their altar.

Makes no sense to me.

ETA:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025234507#post2

Nye Bevan (16,207 posts)

2. I agree that there is no such thing as "reverse racism", and never use the term myself.







Racism is racism, regardless of what race it is directed against.


rac·ism
ˈrāˌsizəm/
noun
the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.
prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

[Nye Bevan]

16. Are you referring to bullet point #4?

4) “You [person of color] clearly don’t know what racism is. According to Webster’s Dictionary...”

Again, I am happy to confirm that I have never said that.

[Capt. Obvious]

17. LOL!!!

[JustAnotherGen]

11. You've never used the dictionary thing?

Are you sure Nye?

Are you positive?

Are you sure you really want to participate in this discussion? It always seems to make you uncomfy.

[Capt. Obvious]

18. She never said those exact words

She just posted dictionary definitions.

[JustAnotherGen]

46. Ahhh - but I'm still not excusing her

Funny I always thought Nye was a guy! Don't know why - just did.

[Nye Bevan]

19. Isn't it appropriate that white people should feel a little "uncomfy"

when discussing issues of race, given this country's history? I don't think the main purpose of these discussions should be to avoid making white people feel "uncomfy". So thank you sincerely for your concern, but I think I can handle it.

[JustAnotherGen]

28. No - I don't think they should

I can't imaging my mother or my husband eveeeeeeeeeer feeling 'uncomfy' during a discussion of race.

It says more about the person who is experiencing discomfort - than the color of their skin or ethnic background.


And you did use the Dictionary thing.


I don't ask for much - I just ask for a little bit of honesty and people owning their words - be it in writing or spoken.

Own your words.

[Nye Bevan]

35. Perhaps some white people are entirely comfortable with the current racial situation in the US.

And some (including me) are not. While we have made much progress, which has probably improved the comfort level of your mother and your husband, there is still much that discomforts me, such as the racial bias in drug sentencing laws and the horrible racial bias in the application of the death penalty. And I am not entirely sure that being "uncomfy" about such issues is a bad thing.

[JustAnotherGen]

44. Um no - it's not progress that did it.

My mom married a black man in 1969 and then had two black children. Then my husband married me.

They both learned to listen early on in their relationships. I.E. Defer to black people on their American Experience.



They probably have a higher comfort level around black Americans and understand our point of view.

[abakan]

89. I would think if some white person feels "uncomfy" discussing race...

They have some other issues they do not wish to expose.

[Nye Bevan]

91. OTOH if a white person is 100% comfortable with the current state of racial discrimination in the US

one could argue that they are a little bit too complacent with the current situation.

[abakan]

100. Not comfortable with the current state of race relations...

But comfortable having discussions with others black, white, and brown.

[JustAnotherGen]

129. ^ This exactly ^

When someone just wants to 'oh fiddle dee make it all go away' - I just feel like they are telling me I need to go help someone birth a baby or something.

You nailed it.

[abakan]

133. I like the GWTW reference...

One of my favorite books...Thanks

[Number23]

154. Did you feel called out or something? How interesting that you felt compelled to share this

[JustAnotherGen]

8. c/p'ing the bullet points I pulled out in AA Group this weekend

As people who benefit from racial privilege, whites can support the leadership of people of color by first challenging these deeply-ingrained myths about racism before entering into a conversation about it, especially with people of color:

1) “You’re racist for making this an issue of race.”

2) “I don’t see race. I only see the human race.”

3) “Talking about issues in terms of ‘white people’ and ‘white privilege’ is reverse racism.”

4) “You clearly don’t know what racism is. According to Webster’s Dictionary...”

5) “You said something about white people doing racist things, so I demand you explain this to me right now.”

6) “But my friend said it was OK if I did it .”


7) “Stop attacking me for having privileges just because I’m white. It’s racist and hurtful.”

8) “I’m sick of pretending that need special rights and programs just because they aren’t white. We have problems too, you know.”

9) Insert tear-filled expression of white privilege guilt or denial here.

[ProfessorGAC]

13. I Can't Get The Link To Work . . .

. . .so i'm confused as to #2. Actually not being racist is a stupid way to not be racist?

There must be something i don't get here because i can't read the whole article.

[gollygee]

14. Here it is

2) “I don’t see race. I only see the human race.”

While this may sound revolutionary, so-called color-blindness is actually part of the problem. Not “seeing race” is simply a lazy coded phrase for deliberately ignoring the lingering elements of racism that actually need to be fixed and reinforces the privilege of being able to bypass the negative effects of racism in the first place. As the saying goes, “You can’t erase what you cannot face.”

It links to this article: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/colorblind/201112/colorblind-ideology-is-form-racism

[AlbertCat]

37. “I don’t see race. I only see the human race.”

This may be biologically viable.....


But socially it is ridiculous. As a white boy growing up in the South, it would be foolish of me to assume a black boy had the same general experiences I did growing up.

As a gay sissy boy growing up...well anywhere in the USA.... it's foolish to think I had the same general experiences as a straight jock.

[ProfessorGAC]

141. Thanks

Now i see the ponit. Seems like overextended logic, but at least i get where the author was going with it.

Thanks Again

[JustAnotherGen]

15. n/t

2) “I don’t see race. I only see the human race.”

While this may sound revolutionary, so-called color-blindness is actually part of the problem. Not “seeing race” is simply a lazy coded phrase for deliberately ignoring the lingering elements of racism that actually need to be fixed and reinforces the privilege of being able to bypass the negative effects of racism in the first place. As the saying goes, “You can’t erase what you cannot face.”

I was always told - Lazy will kill ya!

[LittleBlue]

20. Discard the dictionary definition or dailydot.com will call me a clueless white?

Oh noez

[Capt. Obvious]

21. As will I

[LittleBlue]

23. Awful, just awful

Anonymous online people will call me clueless?

I'll cease all knowledge of dictionaries immediately.

[1StrongBlackMan]

104. Or, you could inform yourself on ...

WHY the dictionary definition is problematic ... specifically, it does not reflect the state of the 50+ years of academic study of the phenomena.

[redqueen]

127. True to type, once again. nt

[LittleBlue]

136. Irony. nt

[whistler162]

22. You forgot create a thread on DU

[LWolf]

24. I'm white, yet those 9 things

have never been my responses.

I HAVE seen them from others, of course.

The closest I might have come would be the "colorblind" thing, but not really. It's hard not to be aware of the differences in our histories, our experiences, and our prospects.

I live in a very white region. I moved here a decade ago for family reasons, and really love the area, if not the culture. If I miss anything from the area I grew up in, it's human diversity in all its magnificence. Last week, I had a doctor's appointment. When I got there, there were 2 black women with kids in tow; After an instant of shock, I spent my time in the waiting room chatting with them. But...in my head, I was thinking, "Where did you come from, why are you here, what were you thinking???" And, when we were done, I found myself wanting to walk them out to the parking lot to make sure they'd be safe.

It's a small town. It's not at all violent. But...it's awfully damned white and redneck.

I hope I'll see them again, frequently.

[Nye Bevan]

49. If you live in a small town that's "not at all violent"

why did you find yourself wanting to walk them out to the parking lot to make sure they would be safe?

[LWolf]

103. Because my dad

was a racist redneck, and while I didn't grow up with him, thank DOG, I did spend enough time around him to hear him frequently talk about how we "needed a hunting season for N******," etc..

Because while this is a pretty friendly town, it's also a rural tea-party like town.

Because I work with the public, and get to meet all kinds of people, not just those in my own social or cultural circle.

Because I know what's out there. It's hidden under the surface, but I recognize it anyway.

I didn't think they would be physically assaulted on the way to their cars. I just wanted to protect them from the thoughts and words that I knew they were going to run into. Which isn't, come to think about it, giving them the credit for being able to handle it themselves. They had to know what they'd be facing here. Somehow, even letting them take it on themselves, I'd like them to know that I'd stand with them at any point.

Many people here don't consider themselves "racist;" they pat themselves on the back for that. Of course, they expect people of color to attend their church and speak and act like they do. Dress like they do. Act "white." This is only the 2nd time in 10 years that I've seen an ADULT black person in the community. The black kids have usually been adopted into white families.

[one_voice]

26. Ok, I will admit...

that I've said

2) “I don’t see race. I only see the human race.”

While this may sound revolutionary, so-called color-blindness is actually part of the problem. Not “seeing race” is simply a lazy coded phrase for deliberately ignoring the lingering elements of racism that actually need to be fixed and reinforces the privilege of being able to bypass the negative effects of racism in the first place. As the saying goes, “You can’t erase what you cannot face.”

I know for a fact that racism is still out there--much more than a lot would like to admit. I've never been able to by-pass the negative effects of racism. And I'm not trying to erase what I can't face.

Other than this I think it's a very good article and will be passing it on.


edited to add: I don't believe I've said it exactly like this I don’t see race. I only see the human race, more like we're all part of one race the human race....or something like that.

[Tetris_Iguana]

55. I used to say that.

Now my position is more honest. I see race and some of the time I like it (especially with women), most of the time I'm neutral, and other times I'm skeptical.

But at all times I treat that person with the same respect I'd give regardless of race.

[one_voice]

140. Hmmm....maybe I'm misunderstanding the intent of...

of the ' I don't see race...' thing.

Obviously I *see* what race a person is, but that's not what makes me want or not want to know a person.

I was raised in a multiracial home. I have black brothers, a white brother, bi-racial sister. I'm married to a Puerto Rican, my first husband was Asian.....I saw my parents spit on because of their marriage. We had a dog gutted and left on our front porch after my sister was born. So I certainly don't dismiss racism...I've lived it.

I choose to respect a person based on *who* they are. I'm horrible at trying to explain what I mean...I'm sorry if I'm not clear. Based on what you say here

I treat that person with the same respect I'd give regardless of race.

is what I'm getting at.

[AlbertCat]

27. “You clearly don’t know what racism is. According to Webster’s Dictionary...”

Well, there does need to be a clarification of terms if you want to make a point.

If you mean just general racism, anyone of any color can experience it.

If you mean institutionalized racism.... in the USA or like South Africa.... there is a clear one way direction.



Racism, like religion, is an emotional issue and sometimes if one tries to approach it "scientifically" for a solution they are accused of being clueless or even bigots if one doesn't show the "proper" emotional enthusiasm.

I think experience and science clearly shows race is merely cosmetic and has negligible if zero to do with intelligence or ability or anything like that.

[PeaceNikki]

77. Using the dictionary is not approaching it "scientifically". Quite the opposite, it's a gross

oversimplification.

[AlbertCat]

79. You still must define your terms if they have more than one meaning...

.....otherwise you cannot make a point.

Don't use the dictionary. That's fine. But define your terms because not everyone will know what you mean.

Lordy, DU should have taught you that by now!

[PeaceNikki]

83. Using an encyclopedia, or academic paper, or large scale study would be 'scientific-er'

An online dictionary.... scientific. lol

[AlbertCat]

94. An online dictionary

Are they all wrong?


All I'm saying is...define your terms! What is so controversial about that? If you don't, folks will assume you mean the dictionary (online or not...Websters or OED) definitions.



Racism...an emotional subject (like religion) so all logic flies out the window.

See? Just like here.

[TampaAnimusVortex]

153. Actually, it IS approaching it scientifically.

This entire disagreement is because of the sloppy use of words. Note the part of the term "ism".

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/-ism

— suffix forming nouns
1. indicating an action, process, or result: criticism ; terrorism
2. indicating a state or condition: paganism
3. indicating a doctrine, system, or body of principles and practices: Leninism ; spiritualism
4. indicating behaviour or a characteristic quality: heroism
5. indicating a characteristic usage, esp of a language: colloquialism ; Scotticism
6. indicating prejudice on the basis specified: sexism ; ageism

Obviously the term racism keys off of #3 primarily as we can tell from the definition Racism (as opposed from Prejudice).

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/racism

rac·ism [rey-siz-uhm] noun
1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

Choice #3 has been added in recent usage, but again, the addition of it confuses it with the term "Prejudice".

prej·u·dice [prej-uh-dis] noun
1.an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason.
2.any preconceived opinion or feeling, either favorable or unfavorable.
3.unreasonable feelings, opinions, or attitudes, especially of a hostile nature, regarding a racial, religious, or national group.
4.such attitudes considered collectively: The war against prejudice is never-ending.
5.damage or injury; detriment: a law that operated to the prejudice of the majority.

This leaves us with #1 and #2 definitions of racism - one more time... to keep it from being conflated with prejudice. That said - is it possible that either of those conditions exist not only from whites to black (or any other color), but also any combination thereof? Of course it's possible... Black people can feel their race is superior as can whites or any other race. All would be wrong of course.

Now, if one wants to posit the theory that in the US, whites have obtained more wealth, political power, etc... that's an entirely different argument than rather the belief of racial superiority is contained only within white "brains".

[mckara]

30. They Forgot to Include #10

White person: I'm not a racist because racism is a crime and crime is for black people.

[littlemissmartypants]

32. Thank you. nt

[DesertDiamond]

33. YES!!!

[treestar]

34. I need an article to the tune of

"8 things white people can say to other white people when they say these things."

How do we counter these people? I don't mean the right wing racists that say these things in the first place, but the average white person who sort of imbibes this stuff without thinking about it.

[tclambert]

36. Louis C. K.: "White people have problems, too, like the time they took away our slaves."

That was a real blow for white people, when they took away our right to own other people. I bet there are lots of executives who would want to get that right restored and go back to the old business model. They could bring back a whole suite of discontinued motivational tools, too--bull whips, chains, branding, mutilation, and lynching, to name a few. Cliven Bundy thought it would be a good idea.

[AlbertCat]

39. That was a real blow for white people, when they took away our right to own other people.

Backs and asians also have a history of slavery.

The suppression of blacks in America is not all there is to racism, y'know.

[Comrade Grumpy]

81. How many white people were slave owners?

[nomorenomore08]

162. Why should it matter? The fact is that white people owned black people and not the reverse.

[TBF]

38. "Institutional power" -

this is the piece a lot of folks don't seem to get. Anyone can have their individual prejudices against another race or gender etc, but when it's part of a larger system and works against you systemically that's when you're seeing a bigger problem in society which needs to be remedied.

[AlbertCat]

40. "Institutional power"

This is why you have to define your terms if you want to make a point.

Uh oh! There's the dreaded dictionary again!

[AlbertCat]

42. Where are the 9 clueless things asians do when confronted with racism?

[gollygee]

43. Are you aware of 9 clueless things that are pretty common in that situation?

I have seen white people act clueless in discussions of racism but that isn't something I've personally seen from asian people. Maybe you should google to find out if there's a list, or make your own if this is something you've seen as a problem.

[AlbertCat]

50. or make your own if this is something you've seen as a problem

I'd never make such a list for any group.

But maybe someone could...y'know with S Koreans treatment of N Koreans who manage to get south

Or what = the Japanese think of the Chinese.


Or what any of them think of whites.



Or is this just about American racism? I thought it just said "racism".

Uh ho...that damn dictionary AGAIN!

[gollygee]

54. Have they?

If you want a list, make a list.

[Sheldon Cooper]

56. Why leave it up to "someone" to make the list?

You seem exceptionally interested in it, and I can't believe you wouldn't jump at the chance to research and publish your findings. Or, do you prefer to just whine about American racism as a way to deflect and avoid the discussion?

[AlbertCat]

64. You seem exceptionally interested in it

You seem too emotional to reason with.

I didn't restrict the original list to "whites".

Which was my point that flew over your oh so righteous head.

[Sheldon Cooper]

65. Hahaha!

I got you with the "emotional" tag before you got me. Game, set match to me!

Hint: your next comeback is: "I know you are, but what am I?"

[Sheldon Cooper]

51. If you think that Asians say racist things, well then by all means,

research it and publish your list. Go ahead. We're waiting...

[JustAnotherGen]

53. Fair point and request

[AlbertCat]

59. If you think that Asians say racist things,

Do you think they don't?


Emotions make all logic fly right out the window! (racism is proof of that)

[Sheldon Cooper]

61. I have no idea what they say, frankly.

But you seem to be very interested in it, in fact, some might conclude that you're being a little, well, emotional about it.

[AlbertCat]

67. you're being a little, well, emotional about it.

Don't try to use the ol' GOP tactic of accusing me of your problem.


Had I made the original list, I'd have said

"9 clueless things PEOPLE say....."



Do you get my post now???? Have I sufficiently explained it for you or are you gonna come in with some other stupid accusations?

[Sheldon Cooper]

69. Hahhaha!

silly man.

[AlbertCat]

73. Sheldon Cooper...

....called ME silly.....


too funny.

[Dreamer Tatum]

48. I think I'm the only one who finds these links ironic and abusive?

I must be.

Proof by assertion is not proof, it's bullshit, and I've already seen enough to not click the link. If not being swayed by the force of self-righteous assertion makes me a racist, then the definition of racist has changed since the last time I talked to actual reasonable people.

[JustAnotherGen]

52. It was actually posted in the AA Group this weekend

It would never dawn on me to post an OP on race in American in GD.

What's the point? It's useless. I don't expect that to change until about 2042. That's when America's dialogue will change.

But if posted by another in GD - - I will participate.

Wait - there was one post I did this winter and it was a video and it was actually pm'd to me from seabeyond. And that was a neat experience because if she had posted it - it would have been hidden. But I did and got a crazy high amount of recs. Go figure!

[Dreamer Tatum]

60. "Hey you guys! Look how racist I'm NOT"

"How not racist am I? Check it out: I wrote an article pointing out how racist YOU are!"

[JustAnotherGen]

66. Was it that?

Or was the author saying -

"Hey. black folks. I get it. This shit irks you and I finally get it. I get it."

The author didn't accuse anyone - just acknowledged the experiences of others.

[Dreamer Tatum]

70. Saying "I get it" shouldn't entail deriding people who, in the author's estimation,

don't get it.

He "gets" it? Good. Let's give him a cookie. I don't need an article detailing how he finally came around.

[JustAnotherGen]

86. But maybe black folks do?

Maybe we need that. It gives us hope.

[Dreamer Tatum]

102. "Hey Black Folks! Read this NOW!"

I'm going to go ahead and guess that wouldn't go over well.

[JustAnotherGen]

105. Actually - it did - last I checked

390 or so views in the A A Group.

You are welcome back there at any time!

[AlbertCat]

78. The author didn't accuse anyone

but he did leave out everyone but whites.


Are these clueless statements exclusive to whites? Inquiring minds want to know!


(but don't upset Sheldon!)

[JustAnotherGen]

87. I don't know

In my experience - I've never experienced other Americans in this way that are Asian, Asian Indian, Native American, Hispanic, Latino etc. etc.

Now bigotry from Africans to black Americans. . . ooooh boy! You don't want to know anything about that! Granted - they have zero power or influence over us - and are generally trying to hold on to their 'feeling' of being the dominant culture - so I 'get' that. But still. Eh? Yikes!

[AlbertCat]

101. I've never experienced other Americans in this way that are Asian, Asian Indian, Native American...

I've seen it.

But of course anecdotal evidence is not too reliable. Indeed, it often is the reason for bigotry.

[JustAnotherGen]

107. I don't think so - i.e. the anecdotal not being reliable

I would be interested.

Maybe because I've always been in majority white affluent communities/organizations/schools - minorities reach out to each other? Bridge gaps because we aren't the dominant culture that surrounds us?

I know in places like NYC in the late 80's and 1990's there were issues between Korean business owners in black neighborhoods - but I wonder how common that is these days.

BTW - Were it not for the anecdotal and the verbal history - black Americans would have very little knowledge of our ancestors experiences in America. We were taught the names of the slaves/land back to the 1830's by my dad's parents that we came from. It's our oral history and those stories/experiences handed down to us that help us to understand how we are here.

[JustAnotherGen]

88. You could also

Look for that yourself - ie those examples or an alternative blog post/article.

I keep hearing/reading that these things are out there - but no one ever seems to have a resource/narrative of the experience to share when they assert this.

[Sheldon Cooper]

58. "Abusive"? Seriously?

You actually feel "abused" by a list on the internet? Wow.

[Dreamer Tatum]

62. No, I feel abused when someone assures me I'm a racist

in an effort to portray themselves as not racist.

I'm not a racist. I don't need a checklist from an article to make that assessment about myself, thanks.

[Sheldon Cooper]

63. If you're not a racist, then the checklist isn't about you.

Why so defensive?

[Dreamer Tatum]

68. Ohhhhh...sorry. It's only for people who self-identify as racist.

My mistake.

This article was written so that the reader would look at the author as a paragon of truth and justice.
Nothing more or less.

[Sheldon Cooper]

72. I can read that without one single ounce of defensiveness.

Just sayin'...

[Dreamer Tatum]

75. I'm not defensive. I'm dismissive.

As in, "Great. You had an epiphany. Now don't presume you need to call the rest of the world out
just because you woke up."

Big difference.

[Sheldon Cooper]

76. Well, "dismissive" says a lot, too.

I'm glad you've come to terms with it.

[Dreamer Tatum]

80. It says exactly one thing: that I dismiss its content as inapplicable to me

and probably most other people, certainly everyone on DU.

You're trying to imply that I am grudging of the content in the article, as I am desperate to
hold on to my deeply racist beliefs.

That is false and simpleminded.

[AlbertCat]

82. Don't sweat it Dreamer...

Sheldon like to accuse others of being emotional

[phil89]

74. I agree.

They are just assertions and not very compelling. I was hoping for a responsible article with something empirical behind it.

[Hoppy]

57. Is it the idea that reverse racism doesn't exist?

[nomorenomore08]

161. In the sense that white people have never been systematically treated as "less than"

by people of color, whereas the reverse (i.e. "regular" racism) has largely defined this country's history. The main problem with the "racism goes both ways" line of thinking is that people use it to draw false equivalencies and simultaneously exonerate themselves from having any role in a racist society.

[davidthegnome]

97. These are things that should be said out loud.

In debate, in different format, among regular Americans talking to each other. Yes, all kinds of dumb shit will be said on both sides, because we are human and we are flawed - but the more we talk about these things, the more we seek to understand each other, to be empathetic... the more progress we will make.

I grew up in a town that had almost no black people at all. I was actually shocked, one day, when a young black girl started going to my school. I was like, woah, there are actually black people here? I can only imagine how others reacted, or what that poor kid had to put up with from idiots who had no exposure to diversity.

When I went to Job Corps at 17, the shoe was on the other foot. There were far more blacks than whites, in a small town in Maine. I had a few conversations about racism, about what our thoughts were, how we might improve things. The person who was most willing to speak to me about it and educate me was a young black, gay man. He was a really nice guy, and even though I often said stupid things, he didn't kick my butt or call me a stupid jerk for saying them. He explained away a significant amount of my ignorance with patience and with knowledge and with experience.

Was it racism, back then, for me to fear that some black folks from different backgrounds might beat me up for any reason at all? Yeah. Was it racism, for me to fear that some of these kids who had grown up much poorer than my family, might rob me? Absolutely. Part of the problem, as I discussed with the young man mentioned above... is that in my area, schools and towns are very much segregated. There are so few black people that they stand out like needles in haystacks. We absolutely see race - everyone SEES race.

At the time, most of what I thought I knew about black people was the result of media, television, movies and so on. I don't know what I expected... maybe a bunch of gangsters walking around with their pants around their knees, talking slang and cussing out white boys, scratching their balls in public and carrying loud boomboxes. Maybe I expected villains, dangerous and cruel people who, by virtue of their skin color, should be avoided in "normal society". There was definitely a lot of that suspicion, a feeling that they were very different, dangerous, or what have you.

Yes, I sure as hell was guilty of a great deal of racism, because I didn't really know what the hell it was. I pondered about why blacks were still so angry about so many things many years after the end of slavery. I very much felt the effects of white privilege - and suffered the ignorance of it.

I would have in all probability grown up to be a very racist, very prejudiced individual, had I not met my friend. I would have in all probability ranted against the evils of affirmative action, gangsters, hip hop artists, what I saw then as "black culture" in general.

Even at thirty... I know I haven't banished every bit of racism inside of me. I'm not sure that's even possible - though I wish it was. What I strive for now is to judge the individual by the individual. I do recognize race, I do recognize skin color, because my experience with diversity is still very limited. Yet, I'm not as ignorant as I used to be. I don't insult people based on their race, I do not label them with all kinds of idiotic bull shit or assumptions about who they are just because of their skin color. I get to know them before I decide what, if anything, I think of them.

In my experience... white people are much bigger assholes than black people - generally speaking. That was an extremely racist thing to say.

[SidDithers]

152. Why did you self-delete everything you've posted in the last month?...nt

Sid

[Number23]

156. Why don't you get us started?

Corruption Inc.'s list of 9 Clueless Things Black People do When Confronted by Racism

Item 1:

[nomorenomore08]

163. "Ignore it and allow it to fester" should probably be on there.

Yet ironically, that's probably what he'd like everyone to do. For the sake of his own comfort.

[Number23]

178. I think you nailed it in one.

[Capt. Obvious]

160. You seem ready to offer such a list

I suggest you add it to your journal when you post your thread.

I don't want to miss it.

[etherealtruth]

157. I am at a loss as to why this article is at all controversial ....?

[nomorenomore08]

164. Evidently, generalizations hurt people's feelings. Even when they're true.

[etherealtruth]

166. All the article aims to do is make people think ....

... at least that is my take

[nomorenomore08]

168. I agree. The butt-hurt in this thread is ridiculous. n/t

[Starry Messenger]

165. Whole lot of white people with the sadz on DU.

I really hope some of these people are not activists irl, saying things aren't racist because they aren't in the dictionary definition. That would be fucking embarrassing.

[etherealtruth]

167. Challenging one's beliefs is hard

... but, come on ... this article challenges us to confront "our beliefs and responses" .... it is not an indictment of who we are.

If it doesn't apply to you move on .... but, at least think about your responses to those around you.

This list can apply to a lot of situations ... sexism, homophobia, xenophobia

How the hell can we ever know how other folk feel when "WE" (collectively) insist on defining it for them?

[Warpy]

177. Sounds about right.

I grew up partially in the Jim Crow south. It would take a miracle to make me a non racist. I've been trying to get rid of it my whole life, it's a work in progress.

Miracles just don't happen very often and never to me.

The only proper response if I've said something stupid is "I didn't realize that, thanks for pointing it out."

Fortunately it's happening less often these days.

[steve2470]

190. It's a good article

I knew this thread would explode if it went to GD.