10 Previous Flightpaths of Malaysian flights

[Ichingcarpenter]

Source of Data:
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/MAS17/history/20140717/1000Z/EHAM/WMKK



Captain Sullenberger ‘Big Question’ Is Why Plane Was Flying Over War Zone

DANVILLE (CBS SF) – During a phone interview with CBS News Thursday morning, Captain Capt. Chesley “Sully” Sullenberger was questioned why Malaysia Airlines flight 17 would be flying over Ukraine’s border with Russia despite ongoing political unrest in the area.

Sullenberger, the veteran of the 2009 Miracle on the Hudson landing, is an aviation expert for CBS News, and was asked by Anchor Scott Pelley why a commercial plane would be flying over an area where two aircraft have been shot down just this week.
“That is one of the big questions right now,” said Sully. “The U.S. Federal Aviation Administration has barred U.S. Airlines from flying over this area for some time.”

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2014/07/17/captain-sullenberger-big-question-is-why-plane-was-flying-over-war-zone/

[JI7]

1. in some other threads people said it was because of the weather

but it was not the original way they were going to go.

[Ichingcarpenter]

3. So Kiev Air Traffic Controllers diverted it to avoid a storm?

They were under Ukrainian airspace which would have jurisdiction on all flight paths.

This is a confusing fact

[JI7]

4. i don't know the details, but reply 2 in this thread seems to know more

[Ichingcarpenter]

6. It still doesn't explain diverting it over a war zone

which was a no fly zone .

Not trying to justify anything, but it seems somebody fucked up.

[Spider Jerusalem]

16. The "no fly zone" extended up to 32000 feet

this plane was flying above the exclusion zone ceiling at 33000 feet (they were directed to 33K by ATC). See here: http://www.malaysiaairlines.com/my/en/site/mh17.html

And also here: http://online.wsj.com/articles/height-of-ukraine-no-fly-zone-faces-scrutiny-1405639624

[jakeXT]

7. Was Donetsk and Luhansk airspace still closed ?

No new information about the airgate’s further operation has appeared on the airport’s official website yet. On its homepage one can find only a statement of June 3, when Ukraine’s state aviation service closed down the airport till J8une 30.

Earlier, Ukraerorukh told ITAR-TASS that “for technical reasons” the international airport of another eastern city, Lugansk, has been closed till September 10. The official website says current repairs of lighting and radio navigation equipment, the runway and power supply cables are in progress.

All passenger flights in the airspace over the Donetsk and Lugansk regions are prohibited by the Ukrainian aviation authorities.

http://en.itar-tass.com/world/738155


This statement runs counter to the announcement of the Ukrainian air traffic authority Ukraerorukh released in early July that the air space over the areas where the government’s “anti-terror” operation is underway was closed over security concerns.

“To guarantee a proper level of air traffic security, the air space over the territory where the ATO (anti-terror operation) is underway has been closed for flights of civil aircraft in the interest of the state aviation,” the message of the Ukraerorukh said.

http://en.ria.ru/world/20140717/190990705/Russia-Says-Ukraine-Responsible-for-Flight-Safety-in-Boeing.html

[Ichingcarpenter]

8. Interesting

Like I said...... somebody fucked up

[jakeXT]

9. The cockpit voice recorder should be an interesting piece of information /nt

[Ichingcarpenter]

10. There are also tapes of air traffic controllers giving instructions

at least in the US and Europe.

the cockpit recorder info will tell more.

Flight could have gone further north or much further south to avoid the no flight area.

[jakeXT]

14. After 9/11 a personal tape was shredded and the ATC tapes were released after 10 years

WASHINGTON, May 6 — At least six air traffic controllers who dealt with two of the hijacked airliners on Sept. 11, 2001, made a tape recording that same day describing the events, but the tape was destroyed by a supervisor without anyone making a transcript or even listening to it, the Transportation Department said in a report today.

The taping began before noon on Sept. 11 at the New York Air Route Traffic Control Center, in Ronkonkoma, on Long Island, where about 16 people met in a basement conference room known as "the Bat Cave" and passed around a microphone, each recalling his or her version of the events a few hours earlier.

But officials at the center never told higher-ups of the tape's existence, and it was later destroyed by an F.A.A. official described in the report as a quality-assurance manager there. That manager crushed the cassette in his hand, shredded the tape and dropped the pieces into different trash cans around the building, according to a report made public today by the inspector general of the Transportation Department.

The tape had been made under an agreement with the union that it would be destroyed after it was superseded by written statements from the controllers, according to the inspector general's report. But the quality-assurance manager asserted that making the tape had itself been a violation of accident procedures at the Federal Aviation Administration, the report said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/06/national/06CND-TAPE.html

Newly Posted Audio Reveals Air Traffic Control Horror On 9/11

The sound files were posted online Wednesday, just days before the 10th anniversary of the attacks, to accompany a monograph published by the Rutgers University Law Review. The release was first reported by The New York Times.
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/09/08/newly-posted-audio-reveals-air-traffic-control-horror-on-911/

[jakeXT]

25. Confiscated by SBU

15:29:

Ukraine's SBU security service has confiscated recordings of conversations between Ukrainian air traffic control officers and the crew of the doomed airliner, a source in Kiev has told Interfax news agency.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-28360784

[Ichingcarpenter]

26. MH17 filed a flight plan requesting to fly at 35,000ft it was denied

MH17 filed a flight plan requesting to fly at 35,000ft throughout Ukrainian airspace. This is close to the ‘optimum’ altitude.

However, an aircraft’s altitude in flight is determined by air traffic control on the ground. Upon entering Ukrainian airspace, MH17 was instructed by Ukrainian air traffic control to fly at 33,000ft.







3. Nationalities

Following this afternoon’s press conference, Malaysia Airlines can confirm that a further 16 passengers’ nationalities have been verified. The latest breakdown of nationalities of those on board the flight is as follows:

· 189 Netherlands

· 44 Malaysia

· 27 Australia

· 12 Indonensia

· 9 UK

· 4 Belgium

· 4 Germany

· 3 Philippines

· 1 Canada

· 1 New Zealand

Four passengers’ nationalities remain to be verified.


http://www.malaysiaairlines.com/my/en/site/mh17.html



My keyboard is messed up

[jakeXT]

27. Aviation expert claims captain made last-minute change of course over Ukraine because he 'felt uncom

Aviation expert claims captain made last-minute change of course over Ukraine because he 'felt uncomfortable'

The pilot of MH17 radioed that he 'felt uncomfortable' about the route he was flying while over Ukraine and fatally altered his course to hostile territory, according to an expert.

Dr Igor Sutyagin, Research Fellow in Russian Studies from the Royal United Services Institute, believes that MH17 was shot down by rebels based in the 3rd District of Torez, in eastern Ukraine, after mistaking his plane for a government military transport aircraft.

He told MailOnline that information had been leaked from a source he was unwilling to name that the pilot of MH17 'felt bad' about his course over Ukrainian airspace, so changed direction.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2696975/Putin-blames-Ukraine-loss-Flight-MH17-298-innocent-souls-DOESNT-deny-Russian-separatists-shot-missile-McCain-warns-Hell-pay.html

That would be interesting if true

[MohRokTah]

2. Bad Weather.

CNN covered this extensively.

There were very severe storms in the normal flight path during the time this flight was moving through, so they altered their course to the North to avoid those storms.

CNN even showed the storms on radar as the flight moved through to demonstrate why this flight had to alter course.

[burrowowl]

5. K&R

[shireen]

11. as far as we know, pilots did nothing wrong

An excerpt from an article in The Guardian:

Eurocontrol said flight restrictions were not in place for airspace at cruising altitude, where MH17 was hit.

A global airline industry group said on Thursday that MH17 appeared to have been flying through ordinary and open airspace when it crashed.

…

Explaining why airlines fly over conflict zones, where groups might be in possession of ground-to-air missiles, the pilot [for a major European airline] said: "There will be weapons based on the ground when you are at 30,000 feet, but that is far up in the air. There are not many missile systems that can be so accurate."

The pilot added that hand-held missile systems were not viewed as a threat to airlines flying at altitude but sophisticated weaponry, such as the Buk system that has been cited as being involved in the MH17 disaster, was much more dangerous. Had-held rocket launchers have been used against commercial aircraft, including an attack in Kenya in 2002 when a shoulder-launched missile just missed an Israeli airliner during take-off at Mombassa airport. In 2003 army vehicles and 1,500 anti-terrorist police were deployed at Heathrow amid fears of a similar attack.

This was done because inexperienced idiots were using sophisticated SAMs.

[jakeXT]

12. I wonder if this refers to the restricted airspace around crimea under flight level 290

where it was previously flying above the Sea of Azov

FDC 4/2816 - AIRSPACE SPECIAL NOTICE UKRAINE
POTENTIALLY HAZARDOUS SITUATION UKRAINE AIRSPACE, PARTICULARLY OVER
CRIMEA, THE BLACK SEA, AND THE SEA OF AZOV.
DUE TO THE POTENTIAL FOR CONFLICTING AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL (ATC)
INSTRUCTIONS FROM UKRAINIAN AND RUSSIAN AUTHORITIES AND FOR THE
RELATED POTENTIAL MISIDENTIFICATION OF CIVIL AIRCRAFT, UNITED STATES
(U.S.) FLIGHT OPERATIONS ARE PROHIBITED UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE IN THE
AIRSPACE OVER CRIMEA, THE BLACK SEA, AND THE SEA OF AZOV, WITHIN THE
FOLLOWING LATERAL LIMITS:


...

CREATES A PROHIBITED AREA OVER THE CRIMEAN PENINSULA FOR OPERATIONS
BELOW FL290

http://www.nbaa.org/ops/intl/mid/FDC-NOTAM.pdf

All flights now barred from eastern Ukraine, where airliner was downed while reportedly flying 1,000ft above restricted airspace

Are Donetsk and Luhansk mentioned ?

Earlier, Ukraerorukh told ITAR-TASS that “for technical reasons” the international airport of another eastern city, Lugansk, has been closed till September 10. The official website says current repairs of lighting and radio navigation equipment, the runway and power supply cables are in progress.

All passenger flights in the airspace over the Donetsk and Lugansk regions are prohibited by the Ukrainian aviation authorities.
http://en.itar-tass.com/world/738155

[shireen]

18. wish i knew ...

I don't know how these advisories work. Would advisories issued by the US be observed by other countries? How do flight controllers make judgments about where to direct planes?

There's a lot of fingers being pointed at the pilots of the downed planes, why were they flying over a combat zone? It is my understanding that while the pilots plot the course, they do it with the approval of air traffic control.

If any pilots are reading this, please chime in.

[jakeXT]

19. It seems it was closed up until 32000 ft, they wanted to fly at 35000 ft, but were told to fly lower

Ukraine authority instructed MH17 to fly at 33,000ft, says MAS -

In responding to reports that the ill-fated Boeing 777 jetliner was flying just 300m (984ft) above restricted airspace when it was shot down over Ukraine, the national carrier said MH17 had filed a flight plan requesting to fly at 35,000ft over Ukrainian airspace, which is close to the “optimum” altitude.

“However, an aircraft’s altitude in flight is determined by air traffic control on the ground. Upon entering Ukrainian airspace, MH17 was instructed by Ukrainian air traffic control to fly at 33,000ft,” Malaysia Airlines said in a statement.

...

"This route had been closed by the Ukrainian authorities from ground to flight level 320 (9,700m, or 32,000 feet) but was open at the level at which the aircraft was flying."

http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/malaysia/article/ukraine-authority-instructed-mh17-to-fly-at-33000ft-says-mas

[Ichingcarpenter]

13. It was only 1000 feet above restricted air space

when it was hit, that's not very much

Thanks for the link

Yeah, idiots all around.

[shireen]

15. according to the article it was 1000 feet above the altitudal exclusion

which is from about 0 to 32,000 ft.

1000 ft above 32,000 ft is a normal cruising altitude. I think it was a reasonable assumption for civilian pilots to assume that sophisticated missiles of that range would not be in the hands of utter idiots.

There's no way military personnel from Ukraine or Russia, trained to operate such a sophisticated weapon would do something so profoundly stupid. This had to be done by inexperienced imbeciles trying to impress their overlords by shooting a Ukrainian military transport plane.

[Edited to add, it's all speculation on my part … and i need to stop doing that! When these tragedies happen, one way of dealing with the anger and sorrow is to search for answers. Not the smartest thing to do when there's so much uncertain or inaccurate info out there. So, I better stop speculating and wait for more credible facts to come out. ]

Russia may be indirectly responsible because of their support for the rebels (their proxies for fighting the war), but when Russia denies involvement, it's a technically truthful statement. I doubt that anyone will ever take responsibility. Meanwhile, the Russian-backed rebels will melt away to oblivion because I doubt if Putin has the integrity to hold them accountable.

Sickening. Maddening. Devastating. I cannot believe this has happened.

[NightWatcher]

17. Let's not blame the people who shot the missle, the Malaysian Air plane was asking for it

I heard the plane was painted all slutty too.

[KittyWampus]

21. Best Reply. Full of WIN! DUzy, for sure.

[CBGLuthier]

23. Brilliant!

[Coventina]

28. You made me laugh out loud

I feel a bit guilty about it, considering the circumstances.

But, still, well played!

[geek tragedy]

20. some Putin fans recommending this post, interesting

to say the least

[KittyWampus]

22. Why stop at just the last 10 flights? Wouldn't it make more sense to go back a full year?

[jakeXT]

24. It costs money, you can subscribe, the Judith Miller Times uses flightradar24 where they have all

the flights over Donetsk. But they aren't giving you dates.




http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/07/17/world/europe/maps-of-the-crash-of-malaysian-airlines-flight-mh17.html


I don't know how reliable flightradar24 is, forum people don't like it too much and prefer flightaware, which was used to create the op.

https://www.metabunk.org/threads/planefinder-net-vs-flightradar24-com-vs-flightaware-for-us-traffic.746/