General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region Forums"GAME CHANGER": I think Josh Marshall has it right:
It's true that we don't have all the facts but it certainly appears that ethnic Russian separatists were allowed to get control of military-grade surface to air missiles and were not dissuaded by Putin from taking pot-shots at whatever flies through Eastern Ukrainian airspace. I think Josh Marshall has it right:
The audio tapes posted by The New York Times might as well be from some future Russia-based version of Waiting for Guffman or Best in Show, a comical rendering of rustics and morons stumbling into an event of vast carnage and international consequence mainly because they're hotheads and idiots - the kind of people no one in their right minds would give world class weaponry to. It's like finding some white supremacist/militia types on their little compound in the inter-Mountain west and giving them world class missile launchers and heavy armaments.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/game-changer--5
http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2014/7/18/9523/66188
= new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight:
NoneDon't highlight anything
5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)There have been reports that the Buk Missile platform used has been moved across the border to Russia.
Cha
(296,780 posts)"In a paradoxical way, I think the future ramifications of this are almost greater because it is about Russia's recklessness and bumbling than it would be if it were more clearly a matter of intent. This is a f'-up on Putin's part of almost mind-boggling proportions. Yes, a tragedy. Yes, perhaps an atrocity. But almost more threatening, a screw up. Malign intent is one thing. So is aggression. But goofs of this magnitude by someone who controls a massive military arsenal and nuclear weapons are in a way more threatening."
Journeyman
(15,023 posts)said of Napolean Bonaparte's ill-advised execution of the Duke of Enghien. Oft times attributed to Talleyrand.
redqueen
(115,101 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)And then sent in a bunch of former CIA and current Blackwater operatives to 'advise' him.
Edited to add:
Actually, should have said imagine if Mexico did that and sent in Mexican special forces guys and members of the Zetas cartel
kpete
(71,957 posts)peace,
kp
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)
The Magistrate
(95,241 posts)"If a man gives a chimp a gun, and he shoots somebody, you don't blame the chimp."
riqster
(13,986 posts)
Stonepounder
(4,033 posts)I suspect that if it was discovered that Mr. Bundy actually did have SAM's, he would scream that they were perfectly legal 'arms' that he had the 'right to bear' and the dumb sh**s on SCOTUS would agree with him.
I suspect that there are a lot of white supremacists/militia types who would go into an orgiastic frenzy at the thought of shooting down a plane, commercial or military. They would claim that it was invading their 'sovereign airspace'.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)Everything they do and say leads to that conclusion. Many more Americans have made the connection, than will admit it.
For some it's a call to stop this like the Founders did with rebellion, but to others it's been their fondest fantasy for years and are eager to get their chance.
It's the same crowd that Palin's love for Putin as a tough guy appeals to. That includes Faux.
PeoViejo
(2,178 posts)The crazies of the crazies. In WWII, they joined the Waffen SS in droves, so now their trying to kiss and make-up to Mother Russia.
Spazito
(50,140 posts)Putin didn't fire the weapon but he aided and abetted those who did.
Enrique
(27,461 posts)who would do a thing like that?
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)"the possibility of things like this is why we didn't give Patriot missile batteries to the mudjaheddin" (there's a difference between a man-portable shoulder-fired SAM that's capable of targeting visually-acquired, low-flying targets like helicopters and a vehicle-mounted missile battery that can target aircraft at an operational radius of 50 miles and up to an altitude of 72000 feet).
randome
(34,845 posts)[hr][font color="blue"][center]You have to play the game to find out why you're playing the game. -Existenz[/center][/font][hr]
Billy Budd
(310 posts)because those weapons only do good in the world .....LOL Like M Pads in Syria ....all these things
Karmadillo
(9,253 posts)SHADOW PROJECTION: THE FUEL OF WAR
Speaking about World War I, Jung could just as well been commenting on our current war when he said, “The psychological concomitants of the present war- above all the incredible brutalization of public opinion, the mutual slanderings, the unprecedented fury of destruction, the monstrous flood of lies, and man’s incapacity to call a halt to the bloody demon- are uniquely fitted to force upon the attention of every thinking person the problem of the chaotic unconscious which slumbers uneasily beneath the ordered world of consciousness. The war has pitilessly revealed to civilized man that he is still a barbarian, and has at the same time shown what an iron scourge lies in store for him if ever again he should be tempted to make his neighbor responsible for his own evil qualities.”
Jung was illumining the root cause of war itself, which is to be found in the unconscious psyche of humanity. Jung was pointing out the underlying psychological lesson of war, which is that to project the shadow, our darker half, outside of ourselves, is an “inner” act which always results in incredible destruction in the “outer” world.
Shadow projection is itself the unmediated expression, revelation and playing out of the shadow. Shadow projection, the process in which we “demonize” our enemies, entrancing ourselves into believing that “they” are inhumane monsters who need to be destroyed, is the underlying psychological process which, when collectively mobilized, is the high-octane fuel which feeds the human activity of war.
Commenting on the human act of projection, Jung said, “Properly understood, projection is not a voluntary happening; it is something that approaches the conscious mind from “outside,” a kind of sheen on the object, while all the time the subject remains unaware that he himself is the source of light which causes the cat’s eye of the projection to shine.” When we shadow project, we hypnotize ourselves into relating to our own shadow as if it is outside of ourselves. Jung talked about “…the overweening pretensions of the human shadow, which we so gladly project on our fellow man in order to visit our own sins upon him with apparent justification.”
more...
Billy Budd
(310 posts)Much appreciate the link and information
freshwest
(53,661 posts)That's the only thing I see. Nothing else. The cheers for them echo the pro-Putin RWNJs at Fox and in the GOP, Teaparty, etc. Note all the Libertarians praising Putin's Russia and hating on America in just the same way, with their storyline. Something stinks there and here as well...
The Traveler
(5,632 posts)did anyone at a commercial airline think it was safe to fly over that area?
You KNOW there are idiots armed with military grade weapons there. You KNOW they aren't exactly operating under well established chains of command, with well defined tactical doctrines backed by training in place. You KNOW they are shooting at almost anything that moves. What kind of idiot routes a commercial airline through a mess like that?
In 1988, the US Navy once mis-identified an air liner as a fighter bomber and blasted it out the sky. And that horrible goof was perpetrated by the commander and crew of the most sophisticated warship of its era ... the USS Vincennes ... and AEGIS class cruiser equipped with the most sophisticated surface to air radar available.
None of this is intended to excuse shooting down an airliner full of innocent people. I am just pointing out that shit like this happens when you fly into a hot zone and are counting on the judgment and good will of the various combatants.
It often takes more than one idiot to make a mess like this.
Trav
Amonester
(11,541 posts)No. Shoot first, ask questions later?
And what the fuck do they have the right to shoot down airplanes to begin with?
The Traveler
(5,632 posts)in what is clearly a hot zone is kinda futile in my viewpoint. Warfare includes the systematic violation of human rights. That's one of the reasons I now lean pacifist. More important than "rights" in this situation is a consideration of capabilities. That does not mean I excuse the action, or the proliferation of weapons, but I do question the judgment of any commercial enterprise that tries to operate in what is obviously a war zone.
The Ukraine government and separatists are in a well known state of hostility. Now, if I am a commander on the separatist side, and I have the means to disrupt/cripple your logistics lines, I am going to do it. If I can shoot down your cargo craft, I will do it unless I am specifically ordered not to.
These guys are in the middle of a shooting war. Maybe "war" isn't the politically accurate term but in my experience a guy who has been dead 3 days during a period of "civil unrest" smells just as bad as a guy who was killed during an actual well defined war. Functionally it does not matter. These idiots are playing with live ammunition. No one in the region can be said to have demonstrated sober judgment or tactical precision. It is by definition a mess, and one in which human rights considerations play little to no influence in what happens in the field. I am not saying this is a good thing, but it is the reality on the ground.
And in the 21st Century, with its vast proliferation of technologically sophisticated weapons, only a fool tries to conduct normal commerce in the vicinity of these actions.
Trav
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)only states are supposed to have that stuff.
Putin gave those weapons to the Cliven Bundy crowd down there, and this is what happened.
The Traveler
(5,632 posts)The Ukraine military had that stuff and the separatists wound up with a lot of their gear as the situation evolved on the ground. This was known. Hell, there were even FB posts showing the separatists in control of Ukraine military assets.
So it is entirely unclear to me that Putin's government gave the separatists these particular weapons ... tho maybe he did.
Irrelevant to my point in any case. Only an idiot flies an airliner into a scene like this.
You will note I am taking great care in this not to defend Putin (an oligarch), the separatists (not known for polite behavior) or the Ukraine government (installed after a what can only be described as a coup and which apparently empowers at least some neo-Nazi elements). That's because I am not seeing any good guys here.
Which in my mind makes the flight plan even more idiotic. Stay away from that crap. These idiots are known to be well armed and are playing with live ammunition.
Trav
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)But, apparently in this case, the planes were in the air, a really nasty storm system got in their way, and they flew south
The area was approved by international flight authorities.
It's hard to fly internationally without flying over some troubled area.
The Traveler
(5,632 posts)Sure, fly into a war zone instead of delaying the flight. Makes business sense. Flight delays cost money!
So does ignoring the effects of climate change. Can't hurt the economy just because we're screwing up the planet, right?
This kind of thinking, which places consumers at risk or distributes the costs of production to society, really bugs me.
Trav
eggplant
(3,907 posts)
PatrynXX
(5,668 posts)never forget one email I got. actually two but mainly was the who did putin marry. vs Obama. ahem Putin divorced her. now where is this going??
there was the other email. who is the better leader using dogs as an example. Putin leads his dog (well duh or it'll be shot) they all say he's a much better leader. uh and he loses control of Eastern Ukraine oops.
herding cats
(19,558 posts)If everything continues to support it was the Pro Russian separatists who did indeed shoot down the airliner, Putin knows he's going to be judged by the world. He's screwed up in a massively tragic fashion and the world is now paying very close attention to what has been and is now taking place in Crimea. Everything which has been done there in the past is now being scrutinized under the new light of yesterdays tragedy.
I never doubted Putin was troublemaker in the region. It was after all in his own better interest to help stir the dissent and feed the separatists weapons. This event changes the way the world is going to view his meddling. There's no way it can't.
pnwmom
(108,955 posts)VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)You need sensible Gun Control....numbskulls abound.