General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region Forums“Political correctness”: decoding a vicious, pernicious code word
...
More plain-spoken versions of this definition appear as ripostes to a diatribe against political correctness that was published (unsurprisingly enough) on the Richard Dawkins Foundation website:
Political Correctness Buzzword used to express the absurd notion that the majority is being dominated by the minorities. (foundationist)
Political correctness is formalised good manners. It has been a benefit to society. Before it became influential it was common to see overt racism, sexism, homophobia, jokes about the disabled and so on. Fortunately a culture of respect for diversity developed and with it a culture of disrespect for rudeness political correctness. The term political correctness can be used as a verbal weapon by those who want to do extreme things, things which would attack equality and human rights. When others complain, the response thats just political correctness is supposed to be a conversation stopper, because political correctness is supposed to be wrong. Complaining about political correctness is as absurd as complaining about good manners. The response thats just political correctness usually translates as thats just being polite. (Zara)
In other words, political correctness is a nasty way to describe talking nicely, as though talking nicely is nasty. This rhetorical duplicity, coupled with the privileged, dominant positions from which pronouncements on political correctness typically come, has made the phrase political correctness slippery, robust, and insidious. The phrase thus provides a present-day example of political speech and writing as the defense of the indefensible, as criticized by George Orwell, in his 1946 essay Politics and the English language. The phrase political correctness is a perfect example of a phrase whose cryptic complexity lets it smuggle into ones speech or writing a formidable freight of covert (and perhaps, sometimes, unintended) meanings that can detract from or even derail the point of a statement in which its used, when its not being openly used to justify oppression.
Amidst the flame wars, troll rampages, and other hostilities that attend a digital mediascape much more populous and interactive than it was in the mid-1990s, it is a tragedy of English vocabulary and public discourse that one of the main progressive take-away points from the political correctness furore that we be courteous, thoughtful, sensitive, inclusive, and above all respectful in our language has been lost, body-snatched by a sneaky and vicious code word for the privileged, entitled, and bigoted to claim not only license but even moral high ground for their vituperative sound and fury.
http://academicalism.wordpress.com/2012/10/12/political-correctness-decoding-a-vicious-pernicious-code-word/
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)Being "required" to be polite and respectful is not a burden
Louisiana1976
(3,962 posts)OLDMADAM
(82 posts)Required, denotes control, and that may be the real rub.. Perhaps "preferred", or "expected" would be a more acceptable position.. But to demand compliance, is what chaps my ass, not that I would ever use any of those obnoxious words or phrases..
By demanding compliance has driven the true bigots even further underground.. In an effort to control behavior through the enforcement of coded words, the assholes are easily avoiding detection.. Let them speak and let the listener hear the message, unfettered.. Banning words is really no better than burning books, in my humble opinion..
That is my 2 cents..
Response to MohRokTah (Reply #1)
Name removed Message auto-removed
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)Freedom of speech does not mean freedom not to be criticised.
Nobody from the government is going to arrest you for being rude, and make no mistake, you are being rude.
Bohunk68
(1,364 posts)put it just a tad different, she called it, "good manners."
CBGLuthier
(12,723 posts)to deride the hiding of a thread with the word for a female dog in a joke. I agree that about 99% of the time what some call PC is merely being polite and considerate of other's feelings and why anyone thinks being polite is wrong is beyond me
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)for calling a woman the b word. oh po baby, cant call women the b word. life is too not fair.
CBGLuthier
(12,723 posts)People can not see that we need to evolve in our language and our behavior. Sure, there was a time when these words flowed freely and without thought as to their ability to hurt. People also used to use racial slurs casually too and few people who matter would argue for the right to use those words today. but some so-called progressives still think it is 1950 when it comes to women.
Louisiana1976
(3,962 posts)eridani
(51,907 posts)Tetris_Iguana
(501 posts)Life years ago was so tough with death, disease, and general poverty that people had bigger things to worry about than his or her feelings that day.
Thankfully our society is generally much more prosperous; but it's made us fat, dumb, and superficial.
That and the negative narcissistic effects of the "every child deserves an award for participating" self esteem movement... But I digress.
Not to say that there's nothing to say for common courtesy in public spheres. Of course one should be mindful not to be menacing to others, but there's a big gulf between common courtesy and the immolation hack job that the PC movement attempts to conduct on gritty individualism and free thought.
No one has the right to be free from merely being offended.
eridani
(51,907 posts)Insulting people for membership in any group is hardly "gritty individualism." It's just shitty manners.
If we're so much more sensitive, how come people are much more tolerant now about public references to sex? Come to think of it, shaming people for ethnicity or gender has become more taboo over the same time frame that talking about sex has become less so. It's only conservatives who are unhappy that it isn't still the other way around.
Tetris_Iguana
(501 posts)As my grandma says, back then people in working class neighborhoods of differing ethnicities called each other by stereotypes and insults.
You didn't take it personally cause that's just how it was.
As to comparing acceptance of gritty language about ethnicity to the same about sex, those concepts are on the opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to open vs closed societal aspects.
But anyways, politeness is mostly people lying to each other to get along whereas an honest society expresses those thoughts that are now becoming more taboo.
eridani
(51,907 posts)A couple of generations ago, Jim Crow was in full swing. Is that what you are trying to defend here?
Tetris_Iguana
(501 posts)Jim Crow is without exception wrong, btw.
eridani
(51,907 posts)Tetris_Iguana
(501 posts)The law merely reflects the attitudes and culture of the ruling class and not the under-societies.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
Springslips
(533 posts)Having the wrong form of Christianity got you burned at the stake? Yes, yes. Those generations were certainly not 'superficial.'.
*eyeroll*
Tetris_Iguana
(501 posts)It wasn't until the scientific revolution that western civilization could prove burning witches is a legitimately crazy enterprise.
It's all about context.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Enjoying your stay?
Number23
(24,544 posts)I call it more black, Asian, Hispanic, gay, disabled etc. people saying "this shit is offensive to us and we won't put up with anymore."
redqueen
(115,103 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)i know.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)the man does not like women and has clearly come thru on his "jokes" about women.
same with the "political correctness" bullshit.
people know those words are offensive and merely want to use them anyway, then cry pc.
you know. if you want to be an asshole, at least take the accusation of being an asshole.
people want their "free speech" in acceptance. not only do they get to say and do the offensive. those they offend are suppose to shut the fuck up and not decry the offense.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)Or they're simply too self-absorbed to care.
ieoeja
(9,748 posts)"America is the greatest nation on Earth."
"Thank you, and God Bless America."
"I love children."
Standing during the National Anthem. The National Anthem before every sporting event. Singing God Bless America on Sunday's during the 7 inning stretch. Pledging your allegience to the flag over and over and over again because apparently there's a fucking time limit on that pledge.
These are some of the most virulently enforced examples of political correctness. Step out of line on one of these, and you can kiss your political career goodbye.
This guy used to have a complete online book based on that very point. It was really humorous.
http://rackjite.com/web/politically_correct.htm
redqueen
(115,103 posts)I stopped reading when he blamed inclusive language and considerate behavior as the reason people don't call themselves liberals / vote for the GOP.
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,781 posts)Thus, a conservative is "Pro-Life", not "Anti-abortion." They are not "fortunate", they are "blessed." A progressive is "Pro-choice", not "Pro-abortion". I could go on, but you get the picture.
I've voted for Democrats and supported various progressive causes throughout my life. I also fly an American flag in front of my home, and I stand during the National Anthem. The difference, I think, between myself and most conservatives is that I don't lose my mind if my fellow citizens don't do these things. On the other hand, if my daughter's school wants to have a Holiday concert in which Hymns are sung, or a Nativity and a Menorah are placed in a lot near city hall, I don't feel a burning need to phone the ACLU.
HERVEPA
(6,107 posts)"Thus, a conservative is "Pro-Life", not "Anti-abortion." They are not "fortunate", they are "blessed." A progressive is "Pro-choice", not "Pro-abortion". I could go on, but you get the picture. "
Pro-choice is exactly correct. Pro-abortion is not. Most pro-choice people wish there were fewer abortions.
Pro-Life is not correct, as most of them don't give a shit about the baby after (s) is born. Anti-choice is the correct term.
And, by the way, you clearly don't give a shit about the separation of church and state, nor understand the difficulty for those not part of the majority religion(s).
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,781 posts)The reference being to the legality of Abortion, rather than the procedure itself. Conservatives (in the late 70s IIRC) decided that they were being unfairly treated by the media and wanted to rebrand: hence, they were no longer "anti-abortion", they were "Pro-Life". There are some interesting (though somewhat slanted) articles on Wikipedia that discuss political framing and terminology controversies in the abortion debate.
The First Amendment is many shades of grey -- not black, not white. There is a world of difference between not being offended by a Nativity in the public square and not giving a s*** about the SOC&S. Someone who didn't care about the SOC&S would advocate for a faith-based interpretation of marriage (which I do not) or would advocate for teaching creation in schools (again, I do not). While I occasionally do support stoning, it's the exception, not the rule.
As for the difficulties of those not part of majority religions - I'm not a member of the majority religion.
By the way, don't attack posters - attack posts. It's the way to make DU suck less.
HERVEPA
(6,107 posts)No lectures on how to behave please.
My kids wound up with the short end of the stick due to not wanting to sing about Jesus Christ the Savior in the choir.
That stuff does not belong in a public school, period!
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,781 posts)My kids have played "Amazing Grace" and "Ode to Joy" in band and symphony. Our neighborhood did not morph into "The Handmaid's Tale" as a result.
ieoeja
(9,748 posts)They hold Christmas pageants. They put up a Christmas tree. And they give out Christmas presents.
But they are also inclusive of other religions as well. The larger culture does not denigrate those who are not the right type. So they can do this in big, bad Liberal Chicago. Because nobody gets hurt.
The reason you see these things challenged in the Bible Belt is because Bible Belt religion is abusive. Catholics are "papists who worship the antichrist in Rome". Muslims are "sand niggers who worship a pedophile." Atheists are "worshipers of Satan and incapable of morality."
You put up with enough of that shit, and see if you remain so sanguine about them shoving their religion down your fucking throat. You take enough abuse and maybe you'll stop making fun of those who fight back against it.
Or at least stop feeling smug superiority over the abused.
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,781 posts)Yeah...sorry. Not seeing it.
Are you assuming that I live in the Bible Belt or are you saying the Bible Belt is the only place these things are challenged? I'm not snarking -- I genuinely don't see where you are coming from there. As to the rest -- I can find those attitudes in rural Georgia; I can find them in suburban Fort Lauderdale; I can find them in Fresno, and I can find them in Boston.
But you are correct: personally, I think the ACLU has bigger fish to fry than whether someone wants to have a prayer before a football game or whether Smallville wants to display a Nativity. JMHO, YMMV
greiner3
(5,214 posts)But Freedom From Religion Foundation, FFRF, takes on so many similar cases that the ACLU can't because of the enormous costs in trying to stem the United States of Theocracy from becoming a reality.
They do a lot of great good and if you were to have a few 'extra' dollars, here's their website;
http://ffrf.org/
"The nonprofit FFRF works to educate the public on matters relating to nontheism, and to promote the constitutional principle of separation between church and state. FFRF is the nation's largest association of freethinkers (atheists, agnostics and skeptics) with over 20,000 members.
Since 1978, FFRF has acted on countless violations of the separation of state and church, and has won many significant complaints and important lawsuits to end state/church entanglements.
Wont you join us in our critical work to promote freethought and defend the separation between government and religion?"
ieoeja
(9,748 posts)I also fly an American flag in front of my home, and I stand during the National Anthem. The difference, I think, between myself and most conservatives is that I don't lose my mind if my fellow citizens don't do these things. On the other hand, if my daughter's school wants to have a Holiday concert in which Hymns are sung, or a Nativity and a Menorah are placed in a lot near city hall, I don't feel a burning need to phone the ACLU.
You are equating Nationalistic bullying with the opposition to State/Church bullying. You describe the former as "los(ing) my mind" and the latter as "a burning need".
That is displaying smug superiority over the abused who oppose State/Church bullying. It is displaying it rather blatantly. If that is not what wished to express, then you did a piss poor job of expressing yourself.
The Wizard
(12,536 posts)I always say under Zeus instead of under god. It makes people twitch.
hunter
(38,303 posts)"Less is more" economic policies (lower taxes for the wealthy, "austerity" for everyone else), "bad is good" (that greed and hoarding are good for the economy), "good is bad" (political correctness is a fault), Fox News is "fair and balanced," climate change denial, etc., etc., etc..
I think it's all calculated by the owners of this society and their lackeys in mass media.
Our nation is a plutocracy.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)sufrommich
(22,871 posts)derby378
(30,252 posts)It is "formalised." And as he also said, "The more serious problem was a version of political correctness which insisted that ANY diversity should be respected. It was mixed up with cultural relativism. That is the danger."
redqueen
(115,103 posts)In every movement, with any idea, there are those who go to extremes. That doesn't prove anything special about consideration and inclusivity, or any other idea or movement.
Whether it's "formalised" or not makes a difference why? (And what does that even mean?)
derby378
(30,252 posts)Misbehaving means you run the risk of offending some societal norm, this is true. But it also gives you the possibility of making people see things in a different light. That's one reason we enjoy comics so much - they challenge us to see the world through different eyes, even absurd ones.
I'm not lobbying for some unabashed right to insult people based on gender, color, or creed. I'm simply lobbying for the ability to offend those who need to be offended. And thus, I leave myself open to be offended as well if I require it. I take the risk that there's a plank in my eye when I point out the splinter in someone else's.
Perhaps it's just orneriness, but I like to think of it as well-meaning orneriness.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)People posting here may think they're kindred spirits with Lenny Bruce or George Carlin, but nobody signed up here to see their act. This is a progressive board, not a comedy club stage. Not someone's living room. Not a bar. When entertainers are on stage they have license to break social mores. The audience expects this and it is in a context which enables people to opt in rather than have to tolerate shit they shouldn't have to. Similarly when we're at home or around friends we can expect to behave in a more relaxed manner wherein the people present pretty much all know each others' sensibilities and are less likely to encounter rudeness of a level that they're not comfortable with.
On this board we have a lot of freedom. We can curse as much as we like. We can post NSFW stuff and link to it too (though the expectation that it be labeled as such seems to have been lost somewhere along the way). The expectation that we not tolerate bigoted language isn't asking a whole hell or a lot. It's not some huge burden. Its certainly not an assault on freedom much less anything to do with "freedom of speech" or "censorship".
Oops went off on a rant there...
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)perfectly between "public" and "private" and what is proper decorum for each. Really, it should be somewhat common-sensical, but we both know how many people either lack common sense or simply "play dumb."
muriel_volestrangler
(101,271 posts)Cross-cultural conversations on violence against women and girls can suffer from excessive deference to difference and diversity or an aggressive sense of cultural superiority [...] Dialogues on child marriage, crimes of 'honour', dowry, female genital mutilation and many other forms of violence often become tangled in angst about interference in the cultural norms of others.[60]
...
We were shocked to discover that there are estimated to be 20,000 girls at risk of female genital mutilation within the UK. Whilst it is beyond our remit to comment on domestic policy, we believe thatas it standsthe UK's credibility in calling to end the practice overseas is undermined by the failure to tackle the problem at home. Witnesses recommended that the UK must put aside political correctness and adopt a far more robust, cross-agency approach, where the police proactively track girls at risk of female genital mutilation and step in to prevent parents having the procedure performed on their daughter(s). We commend these recommendations and urge the Government to act upon them. We were appalled to discover that, despite 148 referrals of female genital mutilation cases in the past four years, police and social services do not place at-risk girls on the Child Protection Register. This must change.
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201314/cmselect/cmintdev/107/10708.htm
That is, I think, the kind of thing Zara was thinking about.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)That's simply a refusal to recognize the rights of the child.
Respecting other cultural beliefs is great, unless those beliefs involve oppressing people. My obligation to respect your culture ends where your fist meets anyone's face, so to speak.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,271 posts)'It' being the hesitation of authorities to step in and monitor the girls who looked at risk of abuse by their parents. The 'political correctness' is someone saying "we must make allowances for this family's cultural traditions". The police etc. are not doing the harm themselves, but they are failing to prevent it.
And while we all agree FGM must be stopped, male circumcision is a highly disputed area, where cultural beliefs and what it means to the children really get tangled. As DU threads on it show.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Enabling child abuse isn't being "politically correct" any more than simply being polite and considerate and inclusive.
As for male infant circumcision, I wonder if anyone labels my or anyone else's efforts to educate people about that barbaric practice as us being 'politically correct'... or is it the people who reflexively defend the practice who are being 'politically correct'? See? It makes no sense. The stupid phrase is just being used to push an agenda. Every time.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,271 posts)In this case, the activist is using it to "push an agenda" with which we agree. I don't regard what Nimco Ali said as 'vicious' or 'pernicious'.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)I find his willingness to conflate the conservative term used for politeness and inclusivity with the habit that all kinds of people (on the left and right) have of excusing and enabling this and many other forms of abuse.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)CTyankee
(63,892 posts)Judaism. Things can get ugly at a certain point in that discussion. Which is why I don't discuss it. Ever.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)but those are banned. As they should be, because bodily integrity is a human right.
And the fourteenth amendment includes an equal protection clause that I don't think falls apart 'because religious tradition'.
CTyankee
(63,892 posts)I've seen too many awful fights and too many people get hurt feelings...
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)all-purpose buzzword that it's nearly meaningless, in practical terms. "Cultural relativism" is a little better, but still often misused.
Otherwise I agree that there should be no "cultural" excuses allowed in the legal fight against FGM.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)When I was in Edmonton, I ended up in a discussion about female genital mutilation and expressed my abhorrence of the practice. One of the feminist women with whom I was discussing the issue forcefully derided me for my American cultural elitism, and criticized me for having the hubris to tell other cultures what they should and should not do.
Is that an example of "excessive deference to difference and diversity?" I don't know. I'm still puzzled by that woman's motivations in attacking my stance on FGM.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)of the human body for no valid medical reason.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,271 posts)and that gets very complicated - one religion demands it, another expects it, and it's been very common in some countries for members of a third. It's the lasting effects that make a difference - for FGM, they're really awful, but for circumcision, there doesn't appear to be a lasting problem. When a German court said there should be no non-medical circumcision, there was a big controversy.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)in practical terms. I expect the religions who practice foreskin removal will take generations, if not centuries, to catch up with the rest of the world, unfortunately.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)Formalized behavior is simply a layman's term for 'cultural mores'-- which is part and parcel of the human condition when we interact with more than one individual on a social level. It's not a problem at all; indeed, it's part of the historical and human process...
Louisiana1976
(3,962 posts)nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)will also bleat like scared sheep whenever they encounter phrases like "white privilege" and will be the first to play the "not all men!" card.
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)"Republicans"
Louisiana1976
(3,962 posts)nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)ismnotwasm
(41,967 posts)Response to geek tragedy (Reply #12)
Name removed Message auto-removed
The Magistrate
(95,243 posts)arcane1
(38,613 posts)but special snowflakes all seem identical.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Welcome to DU.
Response to geek tragedy (Reply #152)
Name removed Message auto-removed
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)and are usually just as quick to take offense, if not more so. So yeah, they're hypocrites.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)is simple politeness towards those who are not Christian, and it is in no way an example of "political correctness gone mad" (whoops, make that "political correctness gone mentally challenged" .
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Thanks for staying true to form and being a fine example once again.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Why would anyone have an issue with this? Surely "spring spheres" is a more inclusive term?
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)Spring ovoids?
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)But the larger point is, why not accommodate those folks who are going to suffer severe, life-changing mental trauma if they are exposed to the "E" word?
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)People being outraged that someone, somewhere, won't acknowledge their Christianized version of an ancient pagan holiday.
They should have been Eostre Ovoids.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)sufrommich
(22,871 posts)Squinch
(50,916 posts)avoid them here. But I guess some have agendas that only made-up conservative talking points can support.
If I had an agenda that only a made-up conservative talking point could support, I'd rethink that agenda.
Thank you for posting that.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)in general? Yes, whoever came up with the "spring spheres" concept is a dumbass, but that has nothing to do with the acceptability of public racism/sexism/homophobia/etc.
*Edit: I see the whole thing was a hoax anyhow. No wonder.
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,781 posts)(Growing up, I did have friends who changed the name of the Christmas Tree to the Chanukkah Bush when their grandparents came over)
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)American leftists in the 1970s adopted it in a self-consciously parodic way:
From Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_correctness#Early-to-mid_20th_century
Stuart Hall suggests one way in which the original use of the term may have developed into the modern one:
According to one version, political correctness actually began as an in-joke on the left: radical students on American campuses acting out an ironic replay of the Bad Old Days BS (Before the Sixties) when every revolutionary groupuscule had a party line about everything. They would address some glaring examples of sexist or racist behaviour by their fellow students in imitation of the tone of voice of the Red Guards or Cultural Revolution Commissar: 'Not very "politically correct", Comrade!'[10]
----
Now, it's used as a cudgel by the right against the left (or more accurately, since we don't seem to actually have an American left anymore) against the identity politics folks. Of course, sometimes the identity politics folks make it easy. There are many threads here that could be (and probably are) ridiculed as PC. Huge threads over "a woman scorned" being one example.
hobbit709
(41,694 posts)the words have magical powers people won't like that.
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,781 posts)No place of extreme heat and pressure has the same degree of forcefulness as a female who has been made to feel shame and anger by external forces.
ismnotwasm
(41,967 posts)Or just perpetuating a long standing destructive stereotype that has no real context in the discussion?
Of course some folk seem to be trying to represent an allegory of the male reproductive organ
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)And are you trying to sneakily call somebody a dick? That's kind of low coming from someone who appears to get bent out of shape by the use of gendered language.
ismnotwasm
(41,967 posts)Just as he was not trying to rephrase "Hell hath no Fury as a woman scorned"
Interestingly, since we are all about wiki, this is the original phrasing
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Congreve
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)ismnotwasm
(41,967 posts)Algernon Moncrieff
(5,781 posts)But I thank Comrade Grumpy.
...except that I KNOW Hell hath no fury.....as I said; wife & 2 daughters.
ismnotwasm
(41,967 posts)Do you think a mans anger is somehow less? Or less effective?
(and I know you didn't need CG to speak for you, you're clearly able to hold your own)
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,781 posts)The expression "HHNFLAAWS" is not generally used to describe actual physical violence, or even the type of constructive vandalism from Carrie Underwood songs. It is used - generally - by members of my gender to describe a type of frosty-eyed, loud volumed reprimand for real (usually) and imagined (less frequently) sleights. You may say that this is an unfortunate and unfair stereotype; I would counter by telling you that the floral and jewelry industries are built, in part, upon this unfortunate and unfair stereotype. These events generally occur when members of my gender overpromise and under deliver on commitments, get caught with other members of your gender, blow their paychecks at strip clubs or casinos, forget anniversaries or birthdays. Long story short -- it's a specific type of anger that takes place in male/female (or I suppose, female/female) interpersonal relationships.
My grandfather, who I never met, had an awful temper. He threw things; hit his kids; hit his wife; yelled and screamed. I've visited many women's shelter's in my professional life that are primarily built on the awfulness of angry men.
Squinch
(50,916 posts)Algernon Moncrieff
(5,781 posts)...it's the whole teenage/middle age thing.
I've actually perfected angering my wife to the point where I can get fury with little or no output on my part. I'm looking into whether it can be harnessed as an energy source.
Squinch
(50,916 posts)Algernon Moncrieff
(5,781 posts)It's like setting of firecrackers -- the word "objectification" comes up frequently.
Squinch
(50,916 posts)it bothers her, and you enjoy making her feel that way?
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,781 posts)I enjoy that she stands up for herself and has her own point of view.
Squinch
(50,916 posts)stand up for herself because you find her reaction entertaining?
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,781 posts)There are better things for both of us to be doing.
Peace be with you.
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,781 posts)I have a wife and two daughters. I'm surrounded and outnumbered.
ismnotwasm
(41,967 posts)In my case, you would be outnumbered as well, my husband and I have one son and 3 daughters.
It doesn't cause any gender problems though. They're all cool with each other.
Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Reply #38)
Algernon Moncrieff This message was self-deleted by its author.
daleanime
(17,796 posts)Igel
(35,274 posts)Like "fascist," it gets redefined by people who don't bother to think about what it is.
Sure, avoiding offensive terms can be called "politically correct." Or "polite." The two don't mean the same thing, or at least don't always. In the last few decades the term's become bleached--those who originally used it don't like it and those who picked it up changed the meaning a bit.
"Semantic bleaching" is when the (denotative) meaning of a word is made fuzzier and fuzzier until it's lost. "Politically correct" had a single, rather specific meaning. It still has that meaning if you're widely read enough or in the right circles. For others it's bleached.
Originally the term went like this.
There was a policy promulgated. What's done and planned must be according to the policy. If something wasn't done according the the policy, it was automatically politically incorrect.
The policy included everything from speech codes of a sort to codes of action and opinion. On DU at election time it is forbidden to voice support for a non-Democratic candidate. You may like the Green candidate--that's your business, keep it to yourself. The politics and the policy are such that this kind of speech is incorrect. It's a mild form of politically incorrect speech, but can get you banned. "Policy correct" is probably a better phrase for it. I don't know an adjectival form for "policy" that doesn't involve coercion (which is the taking of a word that's, say, a noun and using it as a verb or adjective. To verb a noun is "coercion", to say that you use a "computer keyboard" is to coerce "computer" into being an adjective.)
It's a leftist term in origin. In Russian you can still say, without irony, that something is politicheski pravil'no or politicheski nepravil'no--politically correct or politically incorrect. Russian "politicheskii" is the adjective for "politika" (policy as well as politics--your politics are the government policies you agree with, after all).
And it got into English via the CPUSA. When Stalin was alive, you didn't criticize him. When the CPUSA or KP SSSR said to do something, it laid down the party line. That was the official policy. To say otherwise was not in accord with the stated policy and objectives of the party you were a member of or evaluated in accordance with. To disagree was politically incorrect.
When Stalin's denunciation was made public, life was interesting for KP and CP members. They'd come to work speaking praise for Comrade Stalin. When told that this was no wrong, they'd be in a quandary: What level of condemnation is appropriate? Who can be praised and sucked up to? Can I get back that recommendation I filed yesterday whole-heartedly supporting Stalin's initiative but which today might get me fired? No? Shit!
For many here, disagreeing with Obama is politically incorrect. For many here, to disagree with some facet of ideology--whether a (D) party platform plank or some tenet held by many is politically incorrect. To transgress those boundaries is to face calls for enforcement by the "party bosses," to have public criticism foisted upon you (we never used to post jury results to disgrace others), to call for samokritika (self-criticism and public repentance).
Once I was in a church that went from frowning on discommunication towards approving it. I watched one sweet woman go up to another who'd been having problems and give her a sympathetic, warm hug and a kiss, then a card expressing sympathy. She held the woman's hand and patted it, looking kindly and weepy-eyed. Five minutes later that woman with the problems was called out from the pulpit and we were told that she was disfellowshipped. The nice sweet woman went up to the woman with problems before she left the building and insisted on having the card returned, lest the minister find out about it. "You're a horrible person, how could you deceive me like that?" Sympathy was politically correct at 1:00. At 1:50, sympathy for that woman was politically incorrect. It often has nothing to do with rudeness. It has to do with following the rules as set by somebody or some group, and doing so blindly because one has to follow policy.
The word is a bad for for many places where there is no one oligarchy or autocrat that sets and dictates policy and therefore politics. DU is one of them. Work places are another. Where I work there are a lot of times when a student refuses to learn--some make sense, they have other goals; in some cases they face overwhelming problems; mostly the tuned-out students are just disinterested and see no point in anything that doesn't involve their genitals, money, socializing, or some other sort of fun. But "if a student fails, it's really the teachers that have failed" and "nobody is allowed to blame the student." To say out loud even alone with the principal that it's the student's fault in many cases is politically incorrect. Period. It's not particularly rude. It's just factual. But it violates policy and brings a rebuke, a request for self-criticism, and can lead to administrative sanction.
However, it became inappropriate to use certain language, and it wasn't just politeness. To the extent that there's peer pressure as the only "setter of policy" politeness can look about the same. But there's a difference: You are polite to a person. If I call my wife a "hunky" to her face, I'm quite possibly being rude. If I call her a "hunky" when she's nowhere to be seen, I risk having something offensive reported back to her but she's not there. There's no rudeness. That's especially true if I'm alone. But it's still "incorrect." The policy is that you never, but never, use terms that might in any circumstance give offense in the view of an observer who may, or may not, have idiosyncratic views about what is correct. That observer gets to set the policy. At least for some people. ("Hunky" is the standard term of derision in some subgroups of Americans for "Hungarian". It can be used to be insulting, like "Jap" or "Nip"; it can be used, by people who's credentials are in order and approved by the Modern Offense Monitors Society or MOMS, in ways that don't quite signal affection but show solidarity with that disadvantaged and formerly oppressed minority group.)
If you want to see the difference between politeness and milquetoast "PCism" try this. Pick two acquaintances you really don't care about. Go up to one and be rude. "Did you know you're a real dickhead? I mean, fuckhead just doesn't do it when saying how disgusting you are." He'll be offended. Now go up and with a tone of voice that is neutral or even approving, use a racial epithet--perhaps one that could apply to the person you're talking to, perhaps even just one that applies to his/her friend or S.O. "Did you know that hunkies wrote some really good music? Bartok, for instance." The "dickhead" comment is rude. But the comment analogous to "hunky" marks you not as rude, but as suspect, immoral or dangerous, and there's no way to get around this if you're credentials aren't in order. It will trigger a response that's different from mere insults. (This has been studied. Racial epithets really are different.) Politeness and PCism may overlap, but one's worse. Even if the person you talk to is an inveterate racist and agrees with the use of the epithet he may look around if it's in public to see if his reaction's being monitored by his peers before agreeing.
It's not "true" political incorrectness because there's no party line that you have to tow. But the behavior is often the same as in situations where there was real political correctness. For example, coming to work and saying good things about Khrushchev the day *after* he was sent off to his dacha for his "retirement." Or going to work for RT and singing to your friend, just loud enough for your boss to hear, "Putin--khuilo! La-la-la!"
There's a difference.
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,781 posts)ismnotwasm
(41,967 posts)Recently the right subverted it and now is a ridiculous free for all
In the event, the previously obscure term became common-currency in the lexicon of the conservative social and political challenges against progressive teaching methods and curriculum changes in the secondary schools and universities (public and private) of the U.S.[14] Hence, in 1991, at a commencement ceremony for a graduating class of the University of Michigan, U.S. President George H.W. Bush (198993) spoke against: "... a movement [that would] declare certain topics off-limits, certain expressions off-limits, even certain gestures off-limits...."[15]
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_correctness
redqueen
(115,103 posts)"But the dictionary says...!" type of comments are a waste of time.
ismnotwasm
(41,967 posts)I didn't realize it went that far back. But like a few others apparently, I looked up on wiki. Because usage became widespread with the help of the RW, and I remember being disgusted.
But, back to facts. It's now used mostly as an excuse to be an asshole. And you're right about pedantic historical verbiage trying to defend how it's used NOW.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)When I use a word, it means whatever I want it to mean, no more and no less.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)But hey, thanks once again for being true to form.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,271 posts)No-one has mentioned dictionaries; ismnotwasm posted an informative excerpt from Wikipedia, which is a little like a dictionary, but it was giving a good context for the spread of the phrase; and you then denounced posts that ignore context or say "but the dictionary says ...". So I don't know if you're denouncing the quote from Wikipedia as being too like a dictionary, or praising it for giving context - and pre-emptively denouncing anyone who may mention a dictionary in the future.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)This OP is about the way people dishonestly use the term to refer to the effort to make language more polite, inclusive, considerate, etc.
Doing a Google search and then cutting and pasting a wall of text explaining what the term actually used to mean decades ago it's the very definition of 'beside the point'.
No, it isn't literally quoting a dictionary, but I didn't think the similarity to that tactic was hard to spot.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,271 posts)since it was about how RWers like D'Souza started using it to criticise inclusiveness, and how it caught on in the media. But since it looks like it was one of the posts you didn't pay attention to, I guess you didn't know that.
ismnotwasm
(41,967 posts)If you read the whole thing, The post quotes "it's a useful term"--- it's an attempt, albeit a bit convoluted, to defend the phrase-- opposite of the OP.
The history is interesting, as I thought it started with Rush Limbaugh, or the like, so I appreciate the post, but I understand RQ's frustration, as it confuscates the OP.
I simply read it as the poster doesn't agree with the OP, and used a legitimate, but extremely off the point post.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,271 posts)is attacking, as being from Wikipedia - almost a dictionary, to her. What to you is 'recently' (early 1990s) is, to redqueen, 'decades ago', and 'beside the point'.
I agree with you that the history is interesting, but redqueen doesn't want to know about D'Souza.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Anyway, there are two posts about the history of the term and one of them goes back to the sixties or some shit. I don't give a fuck about dsouza.
Thanks ever so much for reading the wall of text just to tell me shit I already fucking know.
If they agree that's fucking lovely. Whether I slog through paragraphs of unnecessary verbosity doesn't change shit, whether you call my unwillingness to do so "attacking" or not.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,271 posts)about the terms replies use. The shit you give us isn't that interesting, you know. ismnotwasm's post was, though.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)ismnotwasm
(41,967 posts)RQ and I discuss a lot of things, and we agree a lot, disagree some, so an exchange between her and I, is more a form of conversation between friends, something which I wish could happen more often here. I didn't feel attacked, I felt she was expressing her opinion.
RQ may very well want to know about any number of things when there are in context; the origins of 'Political Correct', as posted in this case, were not.
ismnotwasm
(41,967 posts)Nice try though!
A little derailment bingo in the morning!
RobinA
(9,886 posts)starting to get it.
And by the same token, when I hear a word it means whatever I want it to mean, no more and no less.
And down the rabbit hole we go.
hunter
(38,303 posts)Language evolves. I'd rather be on the cutting edge of my language than be trapped in the fetid backwaters of some dictionary or middle school grammar text.
The meaning of the phrase "Politically Correct" has been destroyed by assholes I have no respect for. The phrase is dead to me. Useless.
Anyone who uses the phrase "Politically Correct" today, especially as right-wing code-talk, is speaking dead fish.
I don't speak dead fish.
If I'm uncertain what someone means when they say "Politically Correct" then I'll ask them to clarify.
If they are simply being right wing assholes then I won't be shy telling them what I think.
The language of the streets, especially in my community, is always evolving. Minority communities are always bringing something new to the language table. One of the most remarkable things about the English language is its ability to assimilate words, grammars, pronunciations and cadences from other languages.
I live in a community that is a hotbed of language evolution. Forty percent of the kids in our public schools do not speak English at home. The English speaking black community has many gifted ways of storytelling too. The average high school "English" accent in my community incorporates much from other languages, especially those of Mexico, Asian, and African origins.
My wife and kids are language chameleons adapting their own language to the situation. Full academic Ivy League and Stanford English, West Coast "Spanglish," to generic wherever-you-are-from California Spanish. My wife and one of my kids also do a very good Missouri/Southern Illinois and Irish English too. Not consciously. They simply adapt to their audience. I'm always astonished by this innate skill. I sit quietly, invited spouse or dad at the conference table, wondering what sort of beings these are as languages shift about.
A few family friends, and my father-in-law, can do simultaneous translation in multiple languages. They've made good money for that too. Alas, my own listening and spoken language skills are utterly, hopelessly, fossilized into mushy mid-twentieth century American Television English with a slight Wild West twang.
My own language is watered down vanilla Dennis Weaver, except when I write.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)I imagine that the dogmatic who discount the colloquial may even believe 'gentleman' to refer only to a male villein possessing more than 1500 acres of wooded and pastoral lands...
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)I know there's a 99% chance they're a racist, sexist, homophobe, or religious bigot who feels put upon that they can't get away with voicing their particular brand of bigotry without being called on it anymore.
(That 1%? The useful idiots who aren't bigots, but allow themselves to get sucked into the whinefest by the bigots.)
redqueen
(115,103 posts)At the very least they are members of one privileged class or another who don't want to have to recognize it.
BainsBane
(53,016 posts)Louisiana1976
(3,962 posts)Squinch
(50,916 posts)about requests to avoid language that particular groups find problematic, it's showing an entitlement TO disrespect. It is saying, "My opinion rules on this. I know you will be offended but too damn bad. I get to say whatever I want."
It is just a passive aggressive way of silencing people you disagree with. Here it is often used by people who give lip service to agreeing (AAO with his insistence that he was a feminist ally, for example) when in fact they have a barely disguised underlying hate for the group they are (very intentionally) offending.
Ohio Joe
(21,727 posts)And well said
ismnotwasm
(41,967 posts)Just want an excuse to be an asshole. Sometimes they're trying to be funny
I still have a policy (in RL) of ignoring people who use it often. They're usually not worth talking to. On-line, as so much else, it tends to be a rallying cry, 'don't tell me what to say' with the first amendment being brought up somewhere in there, which absolutely cracks me up. The first amendment covers a lot of ground, including the right to object to what is being said, to argue, to express ones opinion
If I talked online the way I talk in RL, or said what I really wanted to say to certain folks, I would have been booted a long time ago. I do believe in a modicum of politeness. I despise the term "politically correct".
redqueen
(115,103 posts)So many people seem not to have a clue.
PowerToThePeople
(9,610 posts)It is a good tell.
Orsino
(37,428 posts)Paladin
(28,243 posts)Louisiana1976
(3,962 posts)Squinch
(50,916 posts)Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)if even one person finds "Baa Baa Black Sheep" objectionable?
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Baa%2C_Baa%2C_Black_Sheep
What true progressive could object to this simple politeness?
alp227
(32,006 posts)ismnotwasm
(41,967 posts)Further information: Loony Left
A controversy emerged over changing the language of "Baa Baa Black Sheep" in Britain from 1986, because, it was alleged in the popular press, it was seen as racially dubious. This was based only on a rewriting of the rhyme in one private nursery as an exercise for the children there and not on any local government policy. A similar controversy emerged in 1999 when reservations about the rhyme were submitted to Birmingham City Council by a working group on racism in children's resources, which were never approved or implemented. Two private nurseries in Oxfordshire in 2006 altered the song to "Baa Baa Rainbow Sheep", with black being replaced with a variety of other adjectives, like "happy, sad, hopping" and "pink". In 2012, a private nursery in Kingston upon Thames replaced "black" with "little" for their Easter show. Commentators have asserted that these controversies have been exaggerated or distorted by some elements of the press as part of a more general campaign against political correctness.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baa,_Baa,_Black_Sheep
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)If even one person objects to "Baa Baa Black Sheep", why not make the change?
And good to see people dropping the potentially offensive terms "blacklist" and "whitelist", too.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/picturegalleries/howaboutthat/9250580/Police-IT-department-bans-word-blacklist-in-case-it-is-deemed-racist.html
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Your effort to defend the right wing ridiculing of each and every instance which you can use to fight the effort to make language more polite and inclusive is ... impressive... or something...
But do you have anything at all to say about the way it was whined about here on DU, today? i.e. someone whining about a post being hidden for calling a woman a b****?
Anything at all? Or are you just going to keep slumming through right wing sewage and sharing the treasures you find here?
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)a third of DUers disagreed with me.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025121954
I would never refer to any woman as a bitch or as the c-word, but there is a sizable minority of DUers who differ with me on this.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)that they should have to refrain from using homophobic or racist language.
Times change, but when it comes to sexist and misogynist language they just change very, very, VERY slowly.
ismnotwasm
(41,967 posts)The site linked to, "The Loony Left" was critical of Britans Labour Party, and leftist politics.
Now, while I do understand what you are trying to say, I feel you used a bad example.
In my place of work, we are supposed to say "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas" in the understanding that not every one is a Christian, and some don't celebrate Christmas, or believe it it.
We get "Holiday" pay for working it though.
Now, this can get awkward, I, an agnostic who thinks Christmas is a holiday to give presents and eat good food, ignore any religious trappings. My daughter, who IS religious, simply says it's more about family. At any rate, I use "Holidays Holidays" but choose not to be offended, or bothered by, those who say "Merry Christmas"
(Easter I consider holiday for little kids, which probably does have pagan roots-- which doesn't matter, except in a historical context, which has the very remote possibility of affecting policy----Easter egg hunts and the Easter Bunny matter)
Squinch
(50,916 posts)alp227
(32,006 posts)Do you have an argument to make, or are you trying to get somebody's goat?
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Squinch
(50,916 posts)Are you that easily fooled?
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Some of the very best DUers have been known to use Wikipedia as a source, in fact:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1255&pid=23411
But here's a Guardian link if it will make you happy:
http://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/2006/mar/10/features.g2
Squinch
(50,916 posts)nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)Seems downright reactionary of you.
WatermelonRat
(340 posts)it's usually a baseless claim.
On the other hand, there are some situations where the term is an apt description:
[img][/img]
[img][/img]
[img][/img]
[img][/img]
[img][/img]
[img][/img]
redqueen
(115,103 posts)The anon hate re: going for a walk was definitely sent by the blog owner in an attempt to be funny and get attention.
Besides, Nye's already on the job of looking up any silly examples for the sole purpose of defending the practice of whining about "political correctness" so that's covered.
Meanwhile the whine was seen being used here on DU, this morning, because someone had a post hidden for referring to a woman as a "b****".
So... efforts to portray the complaining as valid are... well...
WatermelonRat
(340 posts)However, there definitely exist people who believe that words like "dumb" and "stupid" are ableist and that it is appropriation for white people to do yoga. For a non-tumblr example, here is a blogger who most definitely is not a troll or satirist claiming that the word "seminal" is sexist (because it derives from the same ancient Roman word for semen, you see).
http://thesocietypages.org/cyborgology/2014/04/21/dont-say-seminal-its-sexist/
I am well aware that there are plenty of right-wingers who use the term as a means of minimizing criticism of objectively offensive behavior, but I've also seen quite a bit of nonsensical labelling of the benign as sinister. I personally do prefer to avoid using the term because it has largely been tainted by the former group; however I'm also aware that many who use it do so in reference to the latter.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)But hardly any, and they are already roundly mocked, so I don't accept that engaging in right wing smear campaigns because there are some silly people somewhere is in any way defensible.
Response to WatermelonRat (Reply #54)
Name removed Message auto-removed
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)Uncle Joe
(58,297 posts)This is a good OP.
Thanks for the thread, redqueen.
JoeyT
(6,785 posts)if you're the kind of person that wants to be able to say n****r f****t or c**t without being yelled at for saying n****r f****t or c**t. The same bullshit right wingers pull with "Free speech!", which means "I'm allowed to say whatever I want, and no one is allowed to criticize me for it, because it violates my freedom of speech."
When someone starts railing about political correctness, it's usually because there's a minority group they're not allowed to make fun of anymore without someone pointing out that they're an asshole.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)using the c-word.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)better ways to do it. Just saying.
saidsimplesimon
(7,888 posts)Thank you Red Queen, from a very azure blue princess. (snark)
Exultant Democracy
(6,594 posts)their sins, it's as simple as that." -George Carlin.
Soft language is a mocker to the reality we live in and the process with which the language police on DU use political correctness to enforce their world view is very disturbing.
ismnotwasm
(41,967 posts)I'm a huge fan and it always bugs me to see his name trotted out as the main excuse to be rude. All I expect reasonably polite discourse-- And of course I understand when things get heated-- and refraining from deliberately hurting people's feelings on-line, where so much can be misinterpreted.
And I don't feel that is being "politically correct"
redqueen
(115,103 posts)I saw him in concert twice, and he was quite the wordsmith-- he'd make most of DU uncomfortable.
subject
(118 posts)and it eats PC with breakfast.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)The Police Federation has condemned the move as a 'waste of time' and 'an irrelevance'.
The term whitelist - a list of acceptable contacts - has also been banned.
Security services chief Brian Douglas wrote in an email: "Information Board are uncomfortable with the use of the term Whitelist (and I presume Blacklist).
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/picturegalleries/howaboutthat/9250580/Police-IT-department-bans-word-blacklist-in-case-it-is-deemed-racist.html
mwrguy
(3,245 posts)Tetris_Iguana
(501 posts)"Slave" explicitly means one completely controlled by another; in this case the master hard drive.
It does not exclusively refer to African Americans, in fact quite the opposite it refers to the Slavic people.
brewens
(13,542 posts)hear baggers whining about that one. I see no reason to not call them what they prefer. That kind of thing doesn't bother m.
Response to redqueen (Original post)
Tetris_Iguana This message was self-deleted by its author.
BKH70041
(961 posts)Food for thought for those who get it,
Tetris_Iguana
(501 posts)largely dependent on the their own experiences and attitudes.
While one should be cognizant of others' feelings, I see nothing wrong with lewd or offensive humour.
In fact that is usually the best kind.
But to each their own...
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)DU should be thought of as a public space, with certain standards of decorum, rather than the equivalent of talking over beers with a group of friends.
Response to redqueen (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
CBGLuthier
(12,723 posts)Did someone have a sad day fighting for the cause? Enjoy your (brief) stay, friend.
Response to CBGLuthier (Reply #131)
Name removed Message auto-removed
CBGLuthier
(12,723 posts)Wander in here with that stupid shit for your very first post and that is what you get. Clown.
Response to CBGLuthier (Reply #135)
Name removed Message auto-removed
CBGLuthier
(12,723 posts)Response to CBGLuthier (Reply #137)
Name removed Message auto-removed
CBGLuthier
(12,723 posts)You are transparent. Clear as an azure sky. Now who exactly has been impolite to you friend?
Response to CBGLuthier (Reply #140)
Name removed Message auto-removed
Kali
(55,004 posts)Response to Kali (Reply #144)
Name removed Message auto-removed
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Tarheel_Dem
(31,222 posts)CBGLuthier
(12,723 posts)and somehow equivalent to the thousand and one words you have for people of color. Oh well, I tire of this sport so you will just have to play with yourself for a while. I am sure you can handle it, friend.
Response to CBGLuthier (Reply #145)
Name removed Message auto-removed
PlanetaryOrbit
(155 posts)I say this as one of the "people of color" that you describe.
The Magistrate
(95,243 posts)CBGLuthier
(12,723 posts)eridani
(51,907 posts)Response to eridani (Reply #141)
Name removed Message auto-removed
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)to satisfy your version of political correctness?
I've found that most people who accuse others of criticizing vicious and pernicious motives concerning rejection of supposed political correctness usually just want to silence any point of view they don't want to hear, read, or deal with in any way.
alp227
(32,006 posts)Ideas should stand on their own merits, instead of looking edgy via being politically incorrect.
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)"Ideas should stand on their own merits, instead of looking edgy via being politically incorrect."
I couldn't agree more. They should also not be dismissed out of hand because they are not politically correct, which usually means they offend a certain group that is more than happy to support "edgy" speech that supports its point of view.
I'm a free speech sort, and I have a certain disdain for anyone who advocates censorship.
alp227
(32,006 posts)Examples please?
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)You still have answered the question that I put forward. What words would you ban in the name of political correctness?
alp227
(32,006 posts)of politically incorrect ideas you want protected under free speech. Please, name names instead of discussing generalities!
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)Name names...I would be more than happy to do so if it wouldn't result in a lock for a callout. Thanks, but I'm not playing. I'm well aware of the alert stalking that goes on.
alp227
(32,006 posts)All I was asking for were examples of politically incorrect ideas that should be not taboo, in response to your question about what kind of language that should be banned. That was the gist of my "name names" phrase.
secondvariety
(1,245 posts)I wish there was an actual list of words we can't use and opinions we can't have. Also , a list of the "monolithic groups" that are fair game (Christians and/or Southerners for example) and the ones we can't criticize under any circumstances.
I come from a rough around the edges, blue collar background and if I posted here in my everyday vernacular, I probably would have been banned after my first post.
Shivering Jemmy
(900 posts)It was meant as a compliment initially and has come back to bite us.
uriel1972
(4,261 posts)It is sneering at people who care about those different from the mainstream and their needs. I despise the term.
on point
(2,506 posts)The party picked a position and you were politically correct if you aligned with the position and incorrect if not - sometimes needing even re-education
The term has come to used for any morally correct progressive point of view (eg anti racist), that is enforced through the traditional way socially acceptable behavior is encouraged through peer pressure. The right hates the term because they are on the receiving end of trying to change their bad behavior, and they don't want to change and hate being revealed as villains. They try to denigrate the term as forcing conformity, which they are right it does. This should be acknowledged, but it doesn't make their retro positions acceptable in modern society.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)The idea, for example, that Santa Claus should no the displayed in school in order to avoid offending someone, rather than letting people adjust to dealing with things.
This would be an example of overboard PC-ness.
It is a form of acceptable intolerance.
The same is true for those who wish to banish different words. It is a form of intolerance and I am sure someone will know throw the "Oh poor baby, he's an oppressed cracker snowflake who wants to use his widdle words" or some silly sort of thing at me.
Frank Zappa knew that the oppressive need to control, dominate, subjugate and monitor existed on booth right and left sides.
It is a feature of some people's personalities.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)Political correctness, as a phrase and concept, has been so overused, and more importantly, misused, to the point that it's kind of meaningless.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)But those things miss a crucial element involved in the psychology of PC.
That is, that it is based on a kind of self-righteous sanctimonious that is all about feeling that you are doing the "proper thing" for appearances sake without considering the deeper things going on. It is a superficial kind of self-congratulatory symbolic action that isn't well-described merely with "lunacy" or "intolerance".
Words are my business and I will tell you that the reasons words are born and evolve is precisely because other words do not adequately cover the need.
valerief
(53,235 posts)instead. But PC has an agenda (a political one!) and that is to suppress discourse so that the past is forgotten and can be rewritten by the PTB.
JEFF9K
(1,935 posts)... to be "courteous, thoughtful, sensitive, inclusive, and respectful in our language." That what some jurors here do, as they shut down threads and comments that express important opinions.
Niceguy1
(2,467 posts)The term politcal correctness.
Most benign example I can come up with is the deabte to rename manholes as person holes, utility access holes, etc.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)by some on the left.
I know, because I went to college in the 80s, and I have a good memory.
Out of Time Man
(141 posts)...your OP aptly captures thoughts I've had regarding this term, but have been unable to adequately articulate.
I have a couple of friends who believe that using polite language is being "PC", and that "words are just words".
Sadly, these friends fail to ever connect the history with the problematic language they use.
DeSwiss
(27,137 posts)Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Yeah, that dude is missed.
Response to redqueen (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
chervilant
(8,267 posts)...it is a tragedy of English vocabulary and public discourse that one of the main progressive take-away points from the political correctness furore that we be courteous, thoughtful, sensitive, inclusive, and above all respectful in our language has been lost, body-snatched by a sneaky and vicious code word for the privileged, entitled, and bigoted to claim not only license but even moral high ground for their vituperative sound and fury.
Rush Limbaugh and his fear-based, hate-mongering sycophants come readily to mind...
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Right-wing assholes really don't like having their pathetic 'right to be an asshole' challenged.
RufusTFirefly
(8,812 posts)redqueen
(115,103 posts)I mean it would be nice not to see the stuff from the right wing here at all.
But at least this comic provides some balance to all that fox news shit and libertarian "BUT FRANK ZAPPAAAA!" dumbassery up-thread.
Number23
(24,544 posts)hollering about political correctness. That is nothing but a convenient whine from the privileged that they don't get to shit all over the oppressed anymore.
But I disagree with this bit:
Before it became influential it was common to see overt racism, sexism, homophobia, jokes about the disabled and so on.
These ills are still prevalent.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)It is less common now but it's hardly rare.
Wolf Frankula
(3,598 posts)Examples: The United States Is Always Right in Foreign Affairs. The Confederates Were brave strugglers against overwhelming odds. The British Empire was a Good Thing.
Right wing political correctness is just as disingenuous and fraudulent as left wing political correctness. In fact it is more so.
Wolf
redqueen
(115,103 posts)lol