In Moscow, conspiracy theories abound, along with disdain for the separatists

[BeyondGeography]

Last edited Sun Jul 20, 2014, 12:29 AM - Edit history (1)

MH17 and its aftermath: 'ordinary Russians are horrified and frightened'

'So will the Americans attack us now?" At my dentist's surgery in Moscow I am used to being the one nervously asking questions. Yet on the day after flight MH17 was brought down, everyone here – including my dentist, the receptionist and the guy fixing the receptionist's computer – wants me to tell them what will happen next. "You're a journalist. You probably know something we don't know," says the receptionist. "And I don't trust the television," says the receptionist.

...Ordinary Muscovites, meanwhile, are expressing horror at the tragedy even as they entertain some of the wildest conspiracies imaginable. My dentist, Dmitry, has served in the military, and professes scorn for the rebels, whom he refers to as "undisciplined morons". At the same time, he says there is "another side" to the disaster. "Who benefits from portraying Russia as the monster? The Americans do," he says. "They want to go to war with the whole world."

At my local home improvement store, the young manager Vitaly launches into a tirade about how "there is an information war on" and that the US has every capability to frame "either Russia or the rebels." But he, too, has tremendous disdain for the separatists. "I don't even know what their goals are. It all seems pointless," he says. "They're trying to drag Russia into world war three. Fuck them."

A curious mixture of conspiracy theory and criticism for the separatists comes up almost every time I strike up a conversation on the fate of flight MH17. "Even if they didn't bring down the plane, I have no sympathy for these whackjobs," Konstantin, a man in late middle age who describes himself as "retired military", tells me as we queue up at the grocery store.

"Separatists mean too much liability – every good tactician will tell you that," Konstantin says confidently. Like many Russians, he believes that the new Ukrainian government is virulently anti-Russian, pro-western, and corrupt. Still, he doesn't think that Russia should have taken the "political risk" of supporting the rebels.

..."There were many children, I heard," Konstantin says. "Kids that probably never even heard of Ukraine, or the war, or anything like that. The innocents always suffer."

More at:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/20/flight-mh17-reaction-moscow-russia-putin-ukraine-conspiracy-theories

[geek tragedy]

1. Are the separatist scum worth another round

of sanctions? These people would disagree.

[delrem]

2. DU propaganda, 101, turn to the left, please.

[delrem]

6. ouch! That's much hate piled into a sentence.

But your answer is: no, you are wrong.

[BeyondGeography]

5. The reporter's name is Natalia Antonova

Send her a note.

[delrem]

9. Sounds pretty Russian to me. Reminds me of Putin.

No Thank You.
I'm totally alongside the hate, don't try to make me the hated.

[Strelnikov_]

22. "Sounds pretty Russian to me."

Really?

[etherealtruth]

11. The propganda being that Russians

... do not respond to tragedy and horror like other people ....?

Odd

[delrem]

12. Well, who expected Russians to be human.

They are the enemy of the moment. OK?

[etherealtruth]

13. Clearly not you

Referring to an article highlighting the outpouring of emotion as propaganda certainly appears to be an awkward attempt at dehumanizing folk.

Odd

[delrem]

17. I'm just fucking terrible.

I don't hate Putin.
I didn't want Gaddafi to suffer such a terrible death, regardless of the chortles from the USA.
I'm not 100% in favor of "moderate rebels" destroying Syria to the tune of $500,000,000 for this coming year alone.
I'm not willing to pretend that I don't know who is arming and funding ISIS.

I'm not willing to pretend that the neocons haven't retained total control of US power.

[BeyondGeography]

18. I checked and The Lounge is still open

Please go find another thread. Nothing you have said here has made any sense at all.

[delrem]

21. I didn't expect even that much of a response. Congrats.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

46. "I'm not willing to pretend that I don't know who is arming and funding ISIS."

I thought it was McCain.

[delrem]

47. I doubt McCain could have done such a good, "zipless" job.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

49. Depends.

[delrem]

51. Yes. But he lost!

So we don't know and we go with who we have, and the difference is in the land of what legal students calls "fine points".

Ain't it sweet.

[snot]

50. I got it. Try to ignore the flack.

[delrem]

52. oh shit... I'm totally shot up with flak.

Honest: I'm barely hanging in there.

[snot]

53. It might mean you're worth fighting.

[snot]

55. That said, make sure you don't let them waste your time.

You want to spend your time and energy reaching those who can be reached.

[delrem]

57. Thank you.

My problem is Dems who don't realize that their "look forward, not back" approach has made them neocons after 6 yrs of that kind of "bipartisan" normalization. I'm convinced that the vast majority of them haven't a clue what road they're now on, but oh shit-a-loola, they sure are on the neocon road.

[Cha]

14. Oh, so now Glenn Greenwald's old paper, The Guardian, is Propaganda? Or is it just any news that

doesn't suck up to Putin?

You're little "DU Propaganda" is bullshit.

[delrem]

20. Sorry, that went under my head. nt

[Cha]

27. I'm sure it did.

[JackRiddler]

58. You seem confused by the concept...

that the same paper or outlet can present propaganda, lies and puff as well as good reporting and analysis. It often depends on the author, the article and its function. This is a common problem here, where false dichotomy predominates and everything must be black or white, all good or all evil.

[reorg]

3. Despite the headline, no mention of "conspiracy theories" in the article

except this one, the "wildest imaginable", I presume:

"Who benefits from portraying Russia as the monster? The Americans do," he says.

[delrem]

16. Please, for the love of god, don't mention PNAC. OK?

I'd hate to catch you on the wrong side of the red line.

[reorg]

23. God, no, I wouldn't dare

I was just expecting to see an explanation for polls indicating that many people (in the example below Chechs) believe the Ukrainian army shot down that plane. But I may have to look further, maybe Pepe Escobar at the Asian Times has a few clues.

[geek tragedy]

25. Pepe Escobar the Putin fan?

He's on record as saying the only reliable source is . . . the Russian government.

Only people looking for rhetoric deflecting blame from the separatists will find use in his writings on the subject.

The reason Russians blame the Ukrainian government in two words: state media.

[delrem]

28. PUTIN!!! Kill him!!!

You read it here first, in response to geek tragedy, who is a peace-nik of old-times.

[geek tragedy]

32. Putin should be prosecuted not killed.

And Escobar should be receiving plenty of rubles for his efforts on behalf of the Russian state.

From now on, it all depends on Russian intelligence. They have been surveilling/tracking everything that happens in Ukraine 24/7. In the next 72 hours, after poring over a lot of tracking data, using telemetry, radar and satellite tracking, they will know which type of missile was launched, from where, and even produce communications from the battery that launched it. And they will have access to forensic evidence.

Unlike Washington – who already knows everything, with no evidence whatsoever (remember 9/11?) – Moscow will take its time to know the basic journalistic facts of what, where, and who, and engage on proving the truth and/or disproving Washington’s spin.

The historical record shows Washington simply won’t release data if it points to a missile coming from its Kiev vassals. The data may even point to a bomb planted on MH17, or mechanical failure – although that’s unlikely. If this was a terrible mistake by the Novorossiya rebels, Moscow will have to reluctantly admit it. If Kiev did it, the revelation will be instantaneous. Anyway we already know the hysterical Western response, no matter what; Russia is to blame.

Putin is more than correct when he stressed this tragedy would not have happened if Poroshenko had agreed to extend a ceasefire, as Merkel, Hollande and Putin tried to convince him to do in late June. At a minimum, Kiev is already guilty because they are responsible for safe passage of flights in the airspace they – theoretically – control.

Escobar is functionally an extension of Russian state media.

[delrem]

40. Hey, he's not your MSM favorite of all time.

The nerve of him to say some neocon PNAC operation is going down in Ukraine.

Myself, I think he went out on a limb.
It would be so much safer to, like you, follow the US MSM/admin line.
After all, we know that the US MSM/admin line is a slam dunk.

[geek tragedy]

41. His recommendation that everyone let Russia's

intelligence agencies tell them what to believe was funny in an unintentional way, you have to admit.

[delrem]

43. I think his recommendation is to let evidence be revealed in time.

That requires parties from all sides to examine it.

But hey, this is a HATE PUTIN spree, just like it was a HATE ASSAD spree a couple months ago, and HATE GADDAFI spree a couple months before that, and before that HATE HUSSEIN, and before that just HATE the whatever/whenever target. I don't expect to talk reason with such inbred (and self-righteous, sanctimonious) hate.

[Cha]

60. Poor poor Putin.. his little minions are convinced those who want to hold him accountable want

"Kill Putin!!". I think their little are on too tight.

[bemildred]

31. THE ROVING EYE It was Putin's missile!

And here's the spin war verdict: the current Malaysia Airlines tragedy - the second in four months - is "terrorism" perpetrated by "pro-Russian separatists", armed by Russia, and Vladimir Putin is the main culprit. End of story. Anyone who believes otherwise, shut up.

Why? Because the CIA said so. Because Hillary "We came, we saw, he died" Clinton said so. Because batshit crazy Samantha "R2P" Power said so - thundering at the UN, everything duly printed by the neo-con infested Washington Post. [1]

Because Anglo-American corporate media - from CNN to Fox (who tried to buy Time Warner, which owns CNN) - said so. Because the President of the United States (POTUS) said so. And mostly because Kiev had vociferously said so in the first place.

Right off the bat they were all lined up - the invariably hysterical reams of "experts" of the "US intelligence community" literally foaming at their palatial mouths at "evil" Russia and "evil" Putin; intel "experts" who could not identify a convoy of gleaming white Toyotas crossing the Iraqi desert to take Mosul. And yet they have already sentenced they don't need to look any further, instantly solving the MH17 riddle.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/CEN-01-190714.html

[geek tragedy]

34. Unsurprisingly, also published in rt.com

From now on, it all depends on Russian intelligence. They have been surveilling/tracking everything that happens in Ukraine 24/7. In the next 72 hours, after poring over a lot of tracking data, using telemetry, radar and satellite tracking, they will know which type of missile was launched, from where, and even produce communications from the battery that launched it. And they will have access to forensic evidence.

Unlike Washington – who already knows everything, with no evidence whatsoever (remember 9/11?) – Moscow will take its time to know the basic journalistic facts of what, where, and who, and engage on proving the truth and/or disproving Washington’s spin.

Mr. Escobar has succeeded in writing perhaps the most slavishly pro-Moscow article in this whole affair, pointing the finger at the Ukrainians and Obama administration, while cautioning readers that they won't know the truth until the Russian government tells them what to believe.

[bemildred]

37. He pops up all over the place.

Like that Krauthammer piece I put up yesterday, "Moral Clarity", that was just all over the place for a while. Sometimes Pepe is like that in the not-Western press.

I keep up with Asia Times for the varied points of view, so I see most of Pepe's stuff, which I have enjoyed over the years, but yeah, he's gone a little over the edge on the Ukraine crisis. Sometimes I wonder how serious he is about it, his normal cynicism seems to have abandoned him.

[geek tragedy]

38. I think Krauthammer pops up so much

only because George Will can cover only a portion of the "Abominable but Nominallly Sane Wingnut" space.

Egads I never thought I'd miss Buckley and Safire so much.

[bemildred]

39. They could at least write good English.

I still have one of Safire's bon mots around on my disk drive somewhere. Will has pretty much beshit himself lately.

[delrem]

44. I'm sure they can all do the HATE PUTIN camp service.

[delrem]

42. Well, I'm sur Krauthammer set him in his place!

[reorg]

35. always worth a read :-)

[bemildred]

36. Just trying to be of help.

I chose not to post that earlier today, I'm too busy for flame wars, but since it came up ...

[delrem]

48. I think some people think waiting, before jumping on a pro-war bandwagon,

has benefits.

Not many USians, to be sure. But some people.

[Strelnikov_]

24. Yea, I thought the same thing n/t

[Cha]

29. Too bad for putin and his henchmen that Russia is the Monster.. and now they're sniveling cowards..

scrambling to lay blame anywhere but at their air missiles. Fucking Assholes.

[etherealtruth]

7. It rings very true to me

In my mind "people are people" ... I could imagine the same conversations here (and everywhere else) after something like this (we have had these same conversations)

"There were many children, I heard," Konstantin says. "Kids that probably never even heard of Ukraine, or the war, or anything like that. The innocents always suffer." ... a universal thought among people

[MohRokTah]

8. Good to hear some Russians are waking up to the vile evil nature of Putin. eom

[Cha]

26. This Muscovite knew.. :(

Julia Ioffe @juliaioffe Follow

Muscovites leaving flowers and candles by the Dutch embassy in #Moscow. One note says “Forgive us."

5:45 PM - 17 Jul 2014
154 Retweets 53 favorites

http://theobamadiary.com/2014/07/17/smile-it-helps/

[Turbineguy]

10. Perhaps these seperatists

are a way of cleaning up Russian forces. Send them to Ukraine in the hope they'll get killed.

[roamer65]

15. It's shows how much the common people have in common.

If we ever call "bullshit" and truly unite, the elitists are done.

[conservaphobe]

19. The Russian people deserve better than Putin. nt

[Cha]

30. Yes, they do, conservaphobe. :( Especially Russian Gay People.

[BlueCheese]

33. I feel like the Russian media is going back into Soviet-style propaganda.

When they publish known falsehoods, spout the government line, etc. etc. As soon as they start cutting people out of old photographs we'll know the transformation is complete.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

45. "They (The Americans) want to go to war with the whole world."

Hell, our Right Wing acts like it already did and won.

[JackRiddler]

56. Score one for Konstantin.

"he believes that the new Ukrainian government is virulently anti-Russian, pro-western, and corrupt."

Is that a conspiracy theory now?

Prior to MH17, why was the U.S. involved on either side here?

[Number23]

59. But isn't the Guardian ((insert ominous music here)) WESTERN MEDIA???!!

Who are we to trust???!