The games Putin plays

[cali]

Evidence that Kremlin-backed separatists in east Ukraine downed Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 is now so overwhelming as to rule out any other culprit, at least outside the imaginations of conspiracy theorists or professional Kremlin propagandists.

For months, Russian President Vladimir Putin has waged maskirovka warfare in east Ukraine - an old, Soviet-perfected model of destabilizing foreign countries which is characterized by dissimulation, misdirection and plausible deniability, all done with the use of arms-length proxies.

Putin, a former KGB lieutenant colonel, continues to maintain that he has nothing to do with the separatists even as their political leadership has lately visited Moscow begging for more materiel and even opened a satellite office there to coordinate their activities more closely with their master and patron. It also pays to remember that Putin denied invading and annexing Crimea - until he didn't.

U.S. officials, including one from the Defense Department, have confirmed to the Wall Street Journal that the separatists - many of whom are in fact Russian nationals - downed the commercial airliner over the skies of the separatist-controlled region of Donetsk on July 17 using the Buk anti-aircraft missile system. This is a Soviet-era, vehicle-mounted munition with a range of 46,000 feet. The MH17 was blown apart at an altitude of 33,000 feet.

The separatists, who have previously claimed credit for shooting down Ukrainian military planes and helicopters, said they haven't got the capability to hit an aircraft at the MH17's altitude. Except that they admitted, albeit privately and inadvertently, that they'd done just that.

The Ukrainian Security Service, or SBU, has leaked a series of what it alleges are intercepted phone conversations from the separatist camp. In one, recorded in the aftermath of the tragedy, a separatist commander named Igor Bezler (or "Bes," meaning "Demon&quot tells Colonel Vasyl Geranin, a man whom the SBU says is an officer of Russia's military intelligence agency, or GRU: "Just now a plane was hit and destroyed by the Minera Group," referring to a rebel unit.

A week ago, Bezler admitted in a recorded "press conference" held in Donetsk that separatists had received tanks and armored vehicles from Russia for the purpose of defending Slavyansk, a city that recently was retaken by Ukraine's military.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/games-putin-plays-article-1.1872566#ixzz380JPVA18

[CJCRANE]

1. He played the game poorly.

He shouldn't have copied what the west is doing in the ME and elsewhere. As usual it's a case of "do as we say, not as we do".

However, it'll be interesting to see how we justify sending $500 million in aid to Syrian rebels when that comes up for a vote.

(Of course the logical solution is for all countries to stop supporting rebels in other countries)

[cali]

2. I don't think he needed to copy- or did. I think this is in the tradition

he came of age in. It's not like the KGB needed a blueprint from the west.

[CJCRANE]

3. Yes, but this latest round came after our open interference in Syria.

[randome]

5. So Putin gave advanced weaponry to incompetents as a response to our putting an end to nerve gas.

Makes no sense. If Putin had any of the world-class gravitas he thinks he has, he would have done something about Syria on his own.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"The whole world is a circus if you know how to look at it."
Tony Randall, 7 Faces of Dr. Lao (1964)[/center][/font][hr]

[CJCRANE]

8. We supported the Syrian rebels for years before that incident.

There is an appropriations bill in the works asking for $500 million more in aid to the Syrian rebels.

[cali]

12. so what? Putin was KGB. Putin has been clear about his desire for a

"Greater Russia". It's ridiculous to attribute his actions (and not just re Ukraine) to his mimicking the U.S. This is in his own "sphere. His motivations aren't something he's been shy about broadcasting. All of this is not only reminiscent of the USSR, but long Russian leadership historical trends.

http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/5/putin-russia-ukrainecrimeaannexation.html

Your turn... to provide some actual evidence for your assertion that Putin is just following in the footsteps of the U.S. in Syria.

[CJCRANE]

14. We set the same precedent. Do you think our protestations hold moral weight?

[cali]

15. I think that Ukraine isn't analogous in a meaningful way

to Syria. I think our foreign policy actions are often reprehensible- every bit as reprehensible as Russia's in Ukraine- but no, I don't think that precludes protestations. If it did, very few nations, and certainly no powerful ones would ever be able to protest anything. In any case, moral weight is but a slight thing in foreign policy.

[CJCRANE]

17. If our actions hold no moral weight

then it's all hot air designed to do what...persuade the masses?

[cali]

20. uh, no. the thrust of fp is to influence the course of events.

persuading the masses is secondary. And do you think GB has moral weight? France? Russia? China? and on and on. Again, morality has little to do with foreign policy and it never has had.

[cali]

6. correlation does not imply causation. I feel a little absurd having to remind anyone of that.

[CJCRANE]

7. Neither does it negate that example.

[cali]

9. uh, yeah it more or less does- unless you have some evidence to link his

actions with western response to Syria- and btw, Juan Cole wrote a compelling piece about how the nerve gas attack was almost certainly perpetrated by the regime. That doesn't mean he (or I) support arming any faction of the rebels, but it's simply reality based. Hard to impeach Cole or claim he's a neocon or doesn't know what he's talking about.

[CJCRANE]

11. I'm not talking about the chemical gas attack.

I merely mentioned our (and our allies) support for the Syrian rebels.

[randome]

18. Putin gave a box of matches to children living in a tinderbox. He is to blame for what occurred.

The United States is to blame for other things. But this one is on Putin and no one else.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Aspire to inspire.[/center][/font][hr]

[randome]

4. Such a prideful, haughty man. And now, leaving aside the horror of what occurred...

...he is a laughingstock on the world stage because of his incompetence.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"The whole world is a circus if you know how to look at it."
Tony Randall, 7 Faces of Dr. Lao (1964)[/center][/font][hr]

[CJCRANE]

10. Don't be so sure that everyone is buying the neocon propaganda.

This is the same demonization tactic that they used against Saddam, Gaddafi, Assad etc.

Everyone is tired of war, even conservatives.

[cali]

13. Lol. Worse things are said about President Obama every day here. Hell,

I've called him a coporatist here many times. I stand by that. I don't much go for the personal commentary about political figures, but criticizing Putin is not de facto "demonization" and sure as fuck isn't a call for war- or even mostly a call for a cold war.

[CJCRANE]

16. It's pretty obvious that the English speaking press

are demonizing him in America, Britain, Australia: the Murdoch sphere of influence.

I find it interesting that conservatives (the base not the politicians) seem to be more antiwar nowadays than liberals.

[cali]

19. please provide actual evidence that

"conservatives seem to be more anti-war than liberals". On the "conservative" sites- and btw, the repub base is NOT conservative- they're now tea party wingnuts as shown clearly in many polls- I look at, that isn't at all evident.

You haven't shown a scrap of evidence for your claims in this thread. Nada.

[CJCRANE]

21. The Tea Party has been trained to distrust the government.

They distrust the government for all the wrong reasons, e.g. Obamacare and Climate Change and tend to think that Obama is behind eveything.

But that also means they distrust all mainstream politicians now both Dems and Repubs and don't believe anything they say.

It's an interesting phenomenon.

You can see it for yourself if you read the comments on newspaper websites and other discussion boards.

This is just an occasional hobby to post my point of view, I'm not here to provide "blue links" a la Prosense to further an agenda.

If you disagree with me that's fair enough, there might be others who've seen examples of what I'm talking about.