Us & Them in Israel & Palestine

[yurbud]

Americans seem to have an affinity for Israel because so many of them used to Americans and frankly because World War II and the Holocaust made most of us embarrassed about our own anti-Semitism and rightly embrace the Jews among us as us.

Arabs and Muslims seem a little more foreign--our religious and cultural traditions are not as obviously shaped by them as they are by Jews and Judaism, and we haven't had a Holocaust-like collective realization that we have wrongly scapegoated and excluded them, but some of us have met enough of them to feel like they are part of us and no longer a "them." Some people with better imaginations than me might have felt that all along.

When I look at the stuff going on in Gaza and the West Bank, I don't see my brother defending himself from the monstrous other.

I see my brother killing my other brother to take the little he has left after previously taking most of his stuff.

Our government should be dealing with Israel and Palestine on that basis, but seeing both not as brothers but as sons, especially since the one doing the killing couldn't do it without his allowance and gifts from us.

[clarice]

1. Yurbud...I'm sure that you are aware of this....

The Islamic/Jewish "thing" has been going on since the year 623 (or there abouts)
and for the silliest reasons imaginable.

[yurbud]

8. Not exactly. Jews fled Christianized Spain for Muslim countries

during the Inquisition, and co-existed with them about as well or better than they did with Christians until it was clear that Jews moving to Israel were going to establish a Jewish rather than inclusive state less than a hundred years ago.

A past king of Jordan wrote a moving letter about his opposition to large numbers of Jews settling in Palestine and it mostly had to do with the ability of his small population to absorb so many immigrants--immigrants that the US didn't want in such large numbers either at the time.

Egypt and Jordan have treaties with Israel, and Saudi often works with them under the table.

There is not an inherent theological or cultural conflict between them.

Here in the US, you can even find joint kosher/halal butcher shops.

[clarice]

9. Sorry Yorbud...I'm just not with it today...what I meant was...

That the conflict goes all the way back to Abraham/Ishmael/Isaac. (the year was NOT 623)

[yurbud]

12. I remember having a surreal discussion about this with a Muslim in college

I was an evangelical at the time, so I had an emotional interest in the topic, and we were arguing over who was the son God promised Abraham, Ishmael or Isaac.

It was thousands of years ago and they might not even have been real people, but it still had some hold on us.

But it stayed friendly and never got to the point of swords and scimitars.

[yurbud]

10. King Abdullah of Jordan laid out the objection to Jewish settlement pretty clearly:

Palestine took in more Jewish refugees, especially compared to their overall population, than we were willing to.

It was not about race or religion, but being overwhelmed by immigrants, as if 150 million more people came here.

Palestine is a small and very poor country, about the size of your state of Vermont. Its Arab population is only about 1,200,000. Already we have had forced on us, against our will, some 600,000 Zionist Jews. We are threatened with many hundreds of thousands more.

Our position is so simple and natural that we are amazed it should even be questioned. It is exactly the same position you in America take in regard to the unhappy European Jews. You are sorry for them, but you do not want them in your country.

We do not want them in ours, either. Not because they are Jews, but because they are foreigners. We would not want hundreds of thousands of foreigners in our country, be they Englishmen or Norwegians or Brazilians or whatever.

Think for a moment: In the last 25 years we have had one third of our entire population forced upon us. In America that would be the equivalent of 45,000,000 complete strangers admitted to your country, over your violent protest, since 1921. How would you have reacted to that?

http://www.kinghussein.gov.jo/kabd_eng.html

[Caretha]

25. How would you have reacted to that?

Oh....I don't know. Why not ask a racist rethug how he feels about the influx of refugees on our Southern border.

So much for....

'Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore...

[yurbud]

28. I personally think the US should have taken as many Jewish refugees back then as needed...

and now take as many Jewish or Palestinian immigrants as it would take to settle that business down over there.

But we would not now nor back then have accepted the equivalent of what then Jordan did: half of their population.

[RobertEarl]

31. That's it, isn't it?

Never considered it that way before... the mass immigration. It is like the elephant in the room no one ever saw before. Wow.

And now the immigrants have shoved the natives into a small area and told the residents: Take it or leave it. Just like we did with the natives here in the US. Yes, Gaza is the reservation. At least the US is now treating the owners of the land here in the US with some respect, unlike Israel does the Gaza rez.

This is the real talking point from now on. No one who is a freedom loving person with any integrity can continue to support Israel's way of treating the natives of that land.

[elias7]

33. But we did do it

And now several hundred years later we treat them with respect? What if native Americans were actively engaged in repeatedly trying to bomb US cities in retaliation? How respectful would we be then?

It's also a false analogy, since it is not quite so simple or accurate to paint the I/P situation as a group of natives displaced by immigrants.

[yurbud]

35. if Native Americans terrorists were bombing US cities, would it be ethical to do collective

punishment?

[Liberal_Dog]

38. Jordan Is Slightly Bigger Than The State Of Minnesota

And you expect them to take in an unlimited wave of immigrants?

[Caretha]

41. No I don't

It was never equitable for the Palestines or the neighboring countries.

It has been mishandled since day 1 or before. It amazes me that Britain who had no right to any country in the ME, said here...take this land.

It begs the question ..."What could possibly go wrong?" And now we know.

[obxhead]

2. I was speaking to a coworker about the I/p war today.

The conclusion of that conversation was that one would think Jews in particular would be outraged by the treatment of Gaza over the decades. Blockades, denigration due to religion, and expansionism.

I just don't get it. If there is any group on the planet that should have compassion against such things it should be those of Jewish faith and descent. Especially those with German history.

[yurbud]

4. There was a great line in the "Walking Dead" last season...

Herschel was begging the governor for his life and not to attack the prison where his daughters and other survivors were holed up.

Hershel said, " You had a daughter. I have daughters in there. Don't do this."

The governor said, "They're not my daughters," and walked away.

That's how some people deal with oppression. It only counts when it happens to me and mine.

[obxhead]

7. I remember that and it applies.

Maybe it's time we get over those atrocities as well. It appears those oppressed by them are.

[Maedhros]

3. The central failure of the Israel/Palestine debate in America

is that we want the assignment of blame to be a zero-sum game: one side is a villain, the other a saint.

The cultural myth in America holds that Israel is a shining beacon of democracy amidst a teeming sea of Arab savages dedicated to the destruction of the Jewish homeland. There is, of course, some truth behind this myth, yet those who promulgate it conveniently ignore the situation that created the animosity toward Israel. The tendency is to spotlight Palestinian violence as justification for Israeli "defense measures" without considering the many aggressions instigated by Israel against Palestine. Calls for Hamas to stop attacking Israel are valid and reasonable - but only if one also calls for Israel to cease its illegal occupation of certain Palestinian lands.

The reality is that both Hamas and the Israeli Government share the blame for the ongoing conflict, and the Palestinian and Israeli people are unfortunately subjected to the consequences. What is objectionable in American debates regarding Palestine is not that Israel is "defending itself," it's that the plight of the Palestinian people is given little or no consideration.

[yurbud]

5. the problem is the failure of firm intervention by our government

means leaving things alone will allow Israel to gradually kill and expel the Palestinians.

In military and territorial terms, America doing nothing to stop this favors the Israelis.

[Caretha]

26. American is not doing nothing...

What do you call aid in the amount of $3.15 billion per year, not including defense programs which we fund?

[yurbud]

27. not doing anything helpful...

[yurbud]

6. Neither Hamas nor the PA has or has the ability to take and hold Israeli land

Self-defense of Israelis might justify a buffer zone between the two peoples, but not establishing more and more Israeli settlements deep into Palestinian territory.

[clarice]

11. it's that the plight of the Palestinian people is given little or no consideration.

yes, especially by Hamas, which uses them as a human shield.

[yurbud]

13. what were those kids on the beach shielding?

[clarice]

16. FYI..

[link:http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28394606|

[yurbud]

30. You're trusting the guy who used this to prove Iran almost had the bomb?

[Maedhros]

14. Your post is a case-in-point.

All your disgust at this situation is directed to only one of the culprits: Hamas. Israel has its share of blood on its hands, and seeking always to blame the Palestinians and absolve the Israelis does nothing but perpetuate the tragedy.

Hamas claims to be acting in defense of the Palestinian people, and rhetoric such as yours serves to legitimize their claim in the eyes of the Palestinian people.

[clarice]

15. Don't get me wrong....I am no big fan of Israel either. nt

[Maedhros]

17. Yet you trivialize the debate by reiterating the "human shield" canard. [n/t]

[clarice]

18. Please look at my post #16...curious....why do you support Hamas? nt

[Maedhros]

19. Please do not put words in my mouth.

I do not support Hamas. I support the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination.

Hamas is milking the situation in Gaza for its own reasons. But Hamas' behavior does not give Israel carte blanche to pummel all of Gaza with air and artillery strikes - that is collective punishment of all Palestinians for the actions of a few.

[clarice]

20. If I'm not mistaken.....

Doesn't The Israeli government forewarn the Palestinian civilians of incoming rockets?
If Hamas is indeed hiding rockets and missiles in Hospitals/schools..then that definitely
sounds like human shielding to me.

[Maedhros]

21. That's a big "if."

Netanyahu cannot be considered an objective source on the Gaza situation. He will say whatever is politically expedient for his cause.

[clarice]

22. I get that...but...

I don't know if there IS an objective source. I don't think that the BBC is a shill for Israel...or is it?

[Maedhros]

23. They're just quoting Netanyahu, without providing any analysis of whether his assertions

are supported by evidence or not. Not necessarily "shilling", but not good journalism either.

[clarice]

24. Agreed...but isn't it that way with most news outlets?....and

if that IS the way, who could you trust. I don't know that every news outlet
does their due diligence when reporting on a quote of this nature. They SHOULD,
but I think that it's endemic in the news reporting business. IMO

[Violet_Crumble]

34. Didn't the US do the same thing to the residents of Fallujah?

Y'know, warn them to get out or else? I recall there being nearly universal outrage at DU over that tactic, but DU must have changed a lot over the years, because now I've seen some DUers supporting that tactic regardless of the obvious point that Gazans have nowhere to go. If Israel suspects there's a rocket somewhere like a hospital that doesn't give them the right to bomb the shit out of it, kill lots of civilians, and then claim their hands are clean because they warned them first. The IRA used to warn of their bombings as well. That doesn't make it acceptable...

[yurbud]

36. I hate to break Godwin's law, but Hitler said the same thing about his attack on Warsaw:

Sheer sympathy for women and children caused me to make an offer to those in command of Warsaw at least to let civilian inhabitants leave the city. I declared a temporary armistice and safeguards necessary for evacuation, with the result that we all waited for emissaries just as fruitlessly as we had waited at the end of August for a Polish negotiator. The proud Polish commander of the city did not even condescend to reply.

To make sure, I extended the time limit and ordered bombers and heavy artillery to attack only military objectives, repeating my proposal in vain. I thereupon made an offer that the whole suburb of Praga would not be bombarded at all, but should be reserved for the civilian population in order to make it possible for them to take refuge there.

This proposal, too, was treated with contempt on the part of the Poles. Twice I attempted to evacuate at least the international colony from the city. In this I finally succeeded after great difficulties, in the case of the Russian colony, actually at the last moment. I then ordered a general attack on the city for September 25.

https://web.archive.org/web/20130111062019/http://www.humanitas-international.org/showcase/chronography/speeches/1939-10-06.html

[clarice]

37. IMO...what's not acceptable is hiding missiles in schools. Maybe I'm wrong. nt

[yurbud]

39. but killing people in schools and hospitals is justifiable?

How about ending the blockade, giving Palestinians some real autonomy, and stop building settlements in any of the occupied territories?

How about stopping collective punishment period?

If this whole thing is about those three Israeli boys who were killed, is this how you would want other countries to treat Israel if a few extremist Israelis killed Palestinian kids?

Couldn't the Palestinians say that's exactly what their rocket attacks are, trying to "teach Israel a lesson"?

If it just (rightly) pisses Israelis off more, why do you think it will have a different effect on Palestinians?

[clarice]

40. I don't....I think the whole thing is incomprehensible. nt

[H2O Man]

29. Very good! (recommended)

Thank you for this. I appreciate that you correctly identified this as a conflict between siblings.

Often, reading OP/threads on DU is much like watching the news on TV: depressing. But your OP is a ray of sunshine, that allows us to see both the tragic and the potential for good.

Again, thank you!

[MisterP]

32. Melani McAlister wrote that the US (in general) started identifying with Israel after Entebbe:

they could do what we couldn't during a period when we felt helpless in the face of actions done by Arabs (OPEC, anyone?)

but remember that Nixon had little love for Israel, treating it more like the other countries in the region--and they remember what happens to *former* US favorites--Noriega, TRUJILLO, AQ a few times, Saddam, even Qaddafi

[fadedrose]

42. Jerusalem

If Jerusalem were made the capitol of the Mideast, as Washington, D. C. is capitol of the U.S., there wouldn't be much to fight about. They all want Jerusalem because of the Wall and the Dome.

There can be no solution until one is found for Jerusalem. It'd be nice if it were overrun by atheists.