Hamas is only seeking a few things

[FrodosPet]

The end of Israel as a state, the death or expulsion of Jews in Palestine, and global Sharia and Islamic rule centered on al-Aqsa.

They probably would prefer not to send children to their death, but the victory of the Palestinians is far more important than the survival of a Palestinian. And so, if a child's violent death helps further the cause - you gotta do what you gotta do.

"When one of us is martyred, we say that his life is precious. Yet it is a cheap price to pay for the liberation and defense of the homeland"

[COLGATE4]

1. Yep. Don't know why Israel is being

so unreasonable.

[leftynyc]

2. What else can you expect

from a terrorist group?

[RobertEarl]

3. eh

How do you figure you can speak for Palestinians?

[RockaFowler]

4. The OP said Hamas not Palestinians

Hamas is the terrorist organization after all

[RobertEarl]

16. Read below and witness the dancing

The OP can't even stand behind it's op. But then that was obvious... it was more or less a fox news style of an op.

[FrodosPet]

6. Did you actually watch the video?

Are they saying anything about love, forgiveness, seeking peaceful solutions?

NO!!!! Over and over in their children's shows, they are teaching these children that suicide for the sake of the group is noble.

Do some research on "Farfour the Mouse" and get back to us on how Hamas is merely seeking peace.

[RobertEarl]

10. No I don't watch videos

So one guy, or whatever, says bad stuff and your ready for them to... what?

Have you heard what some Israelis are saying?

I did read what Hamas said they wanted for a cease fire. Sounded pretty reasonable. And I do not find what the IDF to be doing to be reasonable. But them I'm just a peacenik.

[FrodosPet]

20. Are you scared of what is in the video?

Palestinian children are being taught that it is good and noble for them to strap on explosives and blow themselves up in the quest for global domination. So how can you possibly be a peacenik and not condemn adults INTENTIONALLY sending young children to a violent end in order to impress their fellow sky daddy worshippers?

Does Israel have its own group of fucked up murderers and monsters? Absolutely. Every country, every city, every possible grouping of human beings on this planet has poisonous individuals.

Overall, I do not believe the goal of Israel or its strongest parties is the genocide of the Palestinians. But the visible and repeated goal of Hamas and its supporters is the destruction of the State of Israel and the death or expulsion of all the Jews from Samaria and Judea.

[RobertEarl]

22. You may have missed this?

We are Israeli reservists. We refuse to serve.

A petition.

..................................


To us, the current military operation and the way militarization affects Israeli society are inseparable. In Israel, war is not merely politics by other means — it replaces politics. Israel is no longer able to think about a solution to a political conflict except in terms of physical might; no wonder it is prone to never-ending cycles of mortal violence. And when the cannons fire, no criticism may be heard.

This petition, long in the making, has a special urgency because of the brutal military operation now taking place in our name. And although combat soldiers are generally the ones prosecuting today’s war, their work would not be possible without the many administrative roles in which most of us served. So if there is a reason to oppose combat operations in Gaza, there is also a reason to oppose the Israeli military apparatus as a whole. That is the message of this petition:

* * *

* * *

We were soldiers in a wide variety of units and positions in the Israeli military—a fact we now regret, because, in our service, we found that troops who operate in the occupied territories aren’t the only ones enforcing the mechanisms of control over Palestinian lives. In truth, the entire military is implicated. For that reason, we now refuse to participate in our reserve duties, and we support all those who resist being called to service.

The Israeli Army, a fundamental part of Israelis’ lives, is also the power that rules over the Palestinians living in the territories occupied in 1967. As long as it exists in its current structure, its language and mindset control us: We divide the world into good and evil according to the military’s categories; the military serves as the leading authority on who is valued more and who less in society — who is more responsible for the occupation, who is allowed to vocalize their resistance to it and who isn’t, and how they are allowed to do it. The military plays a central role in every action plan and proposal discussed in the national conversation, which explains the absence of any real argument about non-military solutions to the conflicts Israel has been locked in with its neighbors.

The Palestinian residents of the West Bank and Gaza Strip are deprived of civil rights and human rights. They live under a different legal system from their Jewish neighbors. This is not exclusively the fault of soldiers who operate in these territories. Those troops are, therefore, not the only ones obligated to refuse. Many of us served in logistical and bureaucratic support roles; there, we found that the entire military helps implement the oppression of the Palestinians.



the rest:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/07/23/we-are-israeli-reservists-we-refuse-to-serve/

[FrodosPet]

27. Why won't you directly address the point of Hamas brainwashing children?

You are dancing around the issue. Sure, there ARE issues to talk about regarding the borders and self rule. There are also issues about recognizing Israel's right to exist.

But back to the OP. As a peacenik, do you, or do you not, condemn Hamas for encouraging children to commit violent suicide in the name of their religion and nationality?

[RobertEarl]

34. I condemn all war

And i condemn the brainwashing of any children, especially those in the US, which is my country so it is my business.

The brainwashing you are so interested in comes from decades of powerlessness. Those families do not have money or hope, or a future other than that dictated to them by some powerful people. It is their only form of power they have available.

Put yourself in their shoes for a few hours and maybe you'll have a smidgen of understanding.

I don't go around condemning people, just ideas. War is an idea, a bad idea. It ends up in scenarios just like you are trying to sell here. I'm not buying it.

[samsingh]

30. i think a basic belief that it is just to destroy Israel brainwashes a lot of people

and results in attacks on Israel.

ignoring this makes no sense.

[uppityperson]

5. Are you speaking of Hamas or Palestinians as you refer to both? Thank you for clarifying

[FrodosPet]

7. It is becoming difficult to separate the two

But the reality is, the Palestinian people have put Hamas into power.

[uppityperson]

9. So you paint all Palestinians, as a geoup, not just the Hamas organization?

Thank you for clarifying.

[FrodosPet]

13. Perhaps you should try for the 2016 Olympics?

That was one amazing leap there.

No, I am sure not all Palestinians support Hamas - at least not willingly.

But the reality is, Hamas is not some marginal organization. They were elected to lead the Palestinians.

So no, #notallpalestinians. But it is a lot more than just some.

[uppityperson]

15. How COULD I assume "Palestinian people" meant the people of Palestine!

I am so ashamed to take your clarification at face value.

[samsingh]

31. no but enough do to keep it a viable organization

[Chan790]

23. That's a dangerous position to take.

Most of the rest of the world, the US excluded, considers Likud a sponsor of terrorism.

It's becoming difficult to separate the two, but the reality is the Israeli people have put Likud into power.

(Unlike you, I'm not arguing that justifies any means to drive them from power.)

[geek tragedy]

8. Sounds a lot like several political parties in Israel nt

[FrodosPet]

11. Interesting. Jewish child suicide bombers?

Do you have some videos of children's shows where they are brainwashing the kids to go and blow themselves up in the quest for global Jewish rule?

[geek tragedy]

12. No, they just forbid people from discussing the children Israel has killed.

Much more sanitary and tidy.

[COLGATE4]

14. And that's obviously the same thing. nt

[geek tragedy]

18. The Palestinians' propaganda is admittedly cruder than most

But all war efforts that involve large numbers of civilian casualties involve propaganda in order to convince the supporters that it's okay to kill massive numbers of non-combatants on the other side.

[COLGATE4]

21. But the point here is that this is not propaganda designed

to convince supporters that it's OK to kill massive numbers of the enemy - it's propaganda designed to poison the minds of a whole new generation of Palestinians, starting with the most vulnerable of them - very young children. These videos are nothing short of the worst propaganda produced by the Third Reich and should be universally deplored.

[geek tragedy]

26. There is plenty of that in Israel too.

You think massacring hundreds in Gaza helps their perception of Jews?

[COLGATE4]

40. Please point me to any link that shows

Israeli children being taught to idolize suicide bombers. False equivalency never works.

[alsame]

17. Children

on both sides are being taught to hate.

Terrifying tweets of pre-Army Israeli teens
http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/terrifying-tweets-israeli.html

#ZionStandUp for Israeli @ashlisade: "Kill Arab children so there won't be a next generation" https://twitter.com/ashlisade/status/487204733669498880 …

#ZionStandUp for Israeli @aviv_sahar: "Death to all of you Arabs you transfag" https://twitter.com/aviv_sahar/status/487197444170461184 …

#ZionStandUp for Israeli @maylevi1203: "Death to these fucking Arabs" http://twitter.com/maylevi1203/status/487178189618159618 …

#ZionStandUp for Israeli @OrelPery: "I wish a painful death to Arabs" http://twitter.com/OrelPery/status/487105475855392768 …

#ZionStandUp for Israeli @OrtaL1ysaScar: "From the bottom of my heart, I wish for Arabs to be torched"

#ZionStandUp for Israeli @dekelderi9: "We wage war so this will be our land without any Arabs" http://twitter.com/dekelderi9/status/487168028828643328 …

#ZionStandUp for Israeli @almasulin82: "Hating Arabs isn't racism it's a commandment from God" http://twitter.com/almasulin82/status/487145220086042 …

#ZionStandUp for Israeli @shira_agiv: "Arabs may you be paralyzed & die with great suffering!" http://twitter.com/Shira_agiv/status/487111810701484033 …

#ZionStandUp for Israeli @stav_madmoni: "Arabs are not human, they're beasts" https://twitter.com/stav_madmoni/status/487022733876686848 …

[Chan790]

19. The problem therein...

They don't care a lick about getting uninvolved civilians killed; just a sacrifice for the cause.

Hamas is not the Palestinian people anymore than Likud is the Israeli people or the Tea Party is the US population. The extremist minority is never a stand-in for the population as a whole; killing broadly to hit the extremist minority is never acceptable. The only acceptable response if they cannot combat Hamas without killing civilians or even not-necessarily-willing human shields is...nothing.

[FrodosPet]

24. Hamas governs the Gaza Strip.

"Since 2007, Hamas has governed the Gaza Strip, after it won a majority of seats in the Palestinian Parliament in the 2006 Palestinian parliamentary elections and defeated the Fatah political organization in a series of violent clashes."

I would say by your reasoning Hamas should also quit launching their shitty rockets because Israeli, or even their own, civilians might get hurt? Or is it just a one way thing?

[Chan790]

25. No, it's definately a two-way thing.

But the solution for either side cannot include attacks on civilians, even if the other side is doing it.

One war-crime does not permit or justify another in response.

[TheKentuckian]

37. Nothing? That is insane, what population would just accept nothing as they are forced to hit the

bomb shelters regularly on an open ended commitment, particularly with the history of attacks and suicide bombers and outside actors who have not only sworn to destroy you but have tried multiple times in living memory?

No fucking way is any people going to tolerate such, to expect so is delusional and probably flat out insane. It sure isn't the reaction of our country, even sitting Bush to the side. We are killing people that never attacked us at all right now. We are in Yemen assisting thugs with their civil war in the name of fighting a far more nebulous terror threat than rockets raining.

[Dreamer Tatum]

28. Valiant effort, but Hamas has "kitteh" status on DU

Anything they do, whenever they do it, however they do it, wherever they do it,
is completely acceptable and even adorable because that's what dem kittehs does.

And Israel, of course, is the pit bull in this scenario.

[samsingh]

29. this is the madness Israel faces everyday

[earthside]

32. Martyrdom?

There is nothing wrong with martyrdom in the culture of western civilization.

The whole Christian religion is based on the martyrdom of its namesake.
Many stories of early Christianity are about martyrs ... most of them consider 'saints'.

The very notion of war is about martyrdom -- dying for one's country -- humans have been doing that probably since even before they were living in caves.

War is ugly and everyone is guilty -- even a U.S. President and Vice President who sent American GIs to get killed "for their country" in Iraq for a whole pack of lies.

What is sad and tragic about this Israel-Palestine war is that so many folks seem to think they have to pick a side and then demonize whomever they are against. There isn't a lot of liberality even from a lot of liberals on this issue.

[FrodosPet]

33. Yes, there is lots of "Fucked Up, Miserable, and Mean" in the history of our species

It is so sad that the premature, painful, violent death of people in the prime of life has to be considered honorable.

I condemn all of it. And I will not pass on this particular condemnation just because they are the underdog, and apparently we are ALWAYS supposed to root for the underdog without even the consideration of legitimate criticism.

[NCTraveler]

36. +1

"What is sad and tragic about this Israel-Palestine war is that so many folks seem to think they have to pick a side and then demonize whomever they are against. There isn't a lot of liberality even from a lot of liberals on this issue."

[FrodosPet]

38. I don't want to "pick a side". But at the same time, for reasons I cannot control, my sympathies...

...tend towards Israel.

And yes, I know the attitudes are not pure of motivation. Much pain and suffering - both in terms of violence and in terms of poverty and lack of control, has been unnecessarily experienced by the Palestinians. And that is fed by both the Israeli monsters who seek the kind of genocide that the Jews of Europe faced in WWII and by the continuation of terror attacks by Hamas and other militants.

But Israel is full of people who do NOT want the destruction of the Palestinians. They want peace and regional prosperity. They are even willing to accept possible criminal charges in the search for peace with their neighbors.

And there are Palestinians, hopefully many Palestinians, who seek coexistence, trade, and travel with Israel. They seek clean water and food and all the other necessities and some of the niceties of life for themselves and their neighbors. Their religion is their religion and yours is yours.

However, these people are not Hamas. And Hamas is not a tiny marginalized organization - they rule Gaza. This means they have a lot of support among the Palestinian people. No, not universal. #notallwhatevers.

But enough for Israel to have a legitimate fear and need to protect themselves from people willing to send their own young children to an early death as walking bombs or human shields.

[NCTraveler]

49. Agree whith all of this. nt.

[NCTraveler]

35. Hamas, in large, is a filthy and disgusting group.

Their demands are not based in reality and war will be ongoing until they lose power among the Palestinians. Unfortunately, like Israel, their power comes from outside sources with and objective that is not in concert with their best interests. Not one good thing in this world comes from the leadership of Hamas.

[eridani]

47. That Israel supported and funded

For some reason imperial bullies always prefer fundies to secular nationalists, even when the latter want peace. Domination always trumps blowback, it would seem.

[justiceischeap]

39. Then by all means, lets kill every Palestinian man, woman and child

Then we won't have to worry about who is being held hostage by Hamas "policy" and who isn't. I'm sure NONE of the Palestinians would like to see Hamas gone, so therefore, they're all complicit and should die horrible deaths. The end.

[FrodosPet]

42. Wow, that is horrible. I know you are not advocating genocide, you are merely over-reacting.

I take it you are one of those yes/no black/white good/evil binary people?

I don't want anyone dying, be they Muslim, Christian, or Jew. But the reality on the ground in Gaza is that Hamas terrorists are deliberately storing and firing weapons near concentrations of civilians so that their casualties are maximized.

So, just so I know where you are coming from - does the ruling party of the Palestinian people have the right to seek the destruction of the State of Israel and the extermination or expulsion of the Jews from their ancient homeland?

[justiceischeap]

43. I was being sarcastic--not overreacting at all

No, I think the world is full of grey's and your OP is the one that is so binary.

The reality on the ground in Gaza is that Israel is slowly taking away pieces of an already small area annexed to the original inhabitants of the land--the Palestinians. What started this latest round of fighting is that Israel took even more land from them to build high-rise, high rent apartments and displaced the Palestinians that were living there. I'm not pro-Hamas but Israel's hands are not clean in this.

I think this image tells the truth of what has been happening to the Palestinian people (I'm not referring to Hamas, I'm talking about the people that have no control over how their government acts).



Slowly, Israel is wiping out the true inhabitants of the land of Palestine so they can have their Jewish state. (I got nothing against the Jews but this is an extreme example of gentrification if I ever saw it).

[Violet_Crumble]

44. It was obvious they were being sarcastic...

does the ruling party of the Palestinian people have the right to seek the destruction of the State of Israel and the extermination or expulsion of the Jews from their ancient homeland?

No, it doesn't. No more than the ruling party of the Israeli people have the right to seek the extermination or expulsion of the Palestinians from their ancient homeland. But you seem to be ignoring that the Palestinian people are also in the West Bank, and Hamas isn't their ruling party...

A quick question. Do you believe the West Bank and Gaza should be part of Israel?

[Boom Sound 416]

41. Kick

[LexVegas]

45. I think that many people here would have categorized WWII as a disproportionate response.

After all, not all Germans were Nazis. Why were we bombing cities with good Germans living there just because Nazis are there too?

[Enrique]

48. i've been hearing that comparison a lot

the difference is the difference between the power of the Nazis vs. Hamas. The Nazis were a serious threat, they had the ability to conquer countries and they were doing it. Hamas by comparison is only a threat rhetorically and that makes all the difference.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

51. We're supposed to get less barbaric over time.

Not repeat the atrocities committed during past wars, even those committed by our own 'side'.

[Enrique]

46. that is why they are categorized as a terrorist organization

and why none of us is allowed to do business with them, they are not allowed to enter our country and banks are required to freeze their assets.

[NaturalHigh]

50. As I posted in another thread...

The Hamas charter states that "our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious." Notice they don't even use code words like Israel or Zionists.

That's what Hamas wants.