What body count is Israel looking for this go round? They are at 1000 and counting...

[morningfog]

Last edited Sun Jul 27, 2014, 10:08 PM - Edit history (1)

You know Israel has a sweet spot for total number Palestinian deaths. There is a magic number of dead, for Israel, that conveys their toughness, their boldness, their "right to self defense" while not going too far in the eyes of the rest of the world. It's a venn diagram political calculation for Israel. Too many and they are undeniable monsters, approaching genocide. Too few and they are weak and ineffectual.

Regularly being (rightfully) accused of war crimes doesn't slow them down. It's all about that sweet war dead spot. What do you think is Israel's political war dead goal in the current operation?

Because there are a coupe things that are certain. First, a cease fire will come at some point. Second, Israel will not eradicate Hamas or its rockets or its tunnels. In other words, Israel's means will not achieve any real objective it may have. Except for looking tough and serious at home and abroad (by killing a significant number of Palestinians). Of course, they are just further radicalizing the Palestinians and legitimizing Hamas. Just look at Abbas, who has now adopted Hamas' position on lifting the blockade as condition of a cease-fire.

What do you think Israel's war dead number is? 1,000? They'll be there soon. 1,500? Maybe. More?

[hack89]

1. A tiny fraction of what Hamas dreams of one day inflicting on the Jews. Nt

[morningfog]

2. So, what's your number?

Because dreams are jack shit.

[hack89]

5. The Holocaust started as a demented dream

No - dreams of whole sale slaughter are not jack shit when they are the prime motivation of a terrorist group with a long history of violence against civilians.

[frylock]

11. the holocaust dude? really?

Keep gazing into that abyss.

[morningfog]

12. Yet, compare how many each has killed.

Over history and currently. The difference is orders of magnitude.

So, I ask again. What is the sufficient body count here. Or, offer a suggestion of an Israeli objective (other than senseless deaths) that withstands logic.

[hack89]

17. Hamas appears dug in for a long fight

So the killing will continue until they run out of rockets. It will be in the thousands.

[morningfog]

20. Thank you, as a pro-Israel poster for having the candor of putting a number,

however vague, out there. Thousands. Fucking shit. That is a lot of innocent people.

You do realize that the Palestinians will never run out of rockets, right? Israel knows that too. And, they won't keep up their war crimes indefinitely. Will they?

[hack89]

23. So why is Hamas shooting rockets

When they know what will happen? Hamas could stop the killing in a second.

[morningfog]

33. You and Israel have yet to offer an objective that fits the means.

Israel has the power here. They are the actors. They are choosing to carry out strikes and the ground invasion. Why?

It is easy to understand Hamas, as the vastly under-matched party in this asymmetrical war. For very little cost, they lob a few rockets, and it will eventually force Israel to the table to negotiate. The heavier Israel comes in, the more vindicated Hamas is to the Palestinians. The greatest weapon Israel has is concession before they kill thousands more.

[hack89]

41. So once Hamas gets what they want through violence

Why would they ever have to compromise? They ask for something unreasonable, Israel says no, they shoot rockets, Israel concedes, the cycle repeats.

Teaching Hamas that violence is the means to their goals merely perpetuates the cycle of violence.

[morningfog]

42. Israel will do just that, eventually.

They didn't have to choose that route.

[nomorenomore08]

77. And killing civilians by the hundreds *doesn't* send the message that violence is the answer?

[hack89]

84. The alternative is to simply sit there and take as many rockets as Hamas wants to shoot?

For years on end? Israel could wall off Gaza even further and see how long it takes before Hamas is overthrown I guess.

[muriel_volestrangler]

116. Israel could negotiate in good faith with Abbas

and thus demonstrate to the Palestinians in Gaza that there is an alternative to being walled in with Hamas. But I don't think they've contemplated doing that for about 15 years.

[hack89]

118. So there are two separate Palestinian governments that hate each other

and it is Israel's job to somehow patch up this major rift in Palestinian society that the Palestinians don't want to fix themselves? How about the Palestinians get their shit together and demonstrate they are capable of running a country?

Why do think that the people in Gaza have a choice? You really think Hamas will ever give up power? There are no functioning Arab Democracies - it is ridiculous to think that Gaza will be the first and they vote Hamas out of power and Hamas goes away quietly.

[muriel_volestrangler]

124. Yes, it is Israel's job

That's what responsible governments do - negotiate with the more reasonable representatives of their neighbours. Also, of course, they dismantle their colonies in occupied territories. Because no-one can 'get their shit together' while their land is under military occupation and being illegally taken.

Your blanket opinion of Arabs looks disgusting. Everyone else should remember that Israel supported the overthrow of a democratically elected government in Egypt by the military, last year. Israel is not interested in democracy in the region either.

[hack89]

125. So they make a deal with Abbas and Hamas rejects it

what then? Whose responsibility is it to make Hamas see reason? Negotiating with the "reasonable representatives" means nothing if nothing they agree to is binding.

Do you really think Hamas will respect any election that puts them out of power? Do you think they will even allow an election? Can you answer that simple question?

[muriel_volestrangler]

126. The Palestinians would turn against them

if they had hope that it would bring them a decent life. They only turned to them after Israel had made their lives hell.

[hack89]

127. So there is a bloody civil war in Gaza that Hamas brutally suppresses

what real power do people have? Violent authoritarian rule is the norm in the ME.

[muriel_volestrangler]

128. And Israel prefers it that way (the parties in power since 2001, anyway)

Hence it's support for the junta in Egypt, rather than the result of the Arab Spring; or Israel's own violent authoritarian rule in the occupied territories.

[hack89]

129. Only Hamas can control what Hamas does

at some point your "it is all Israel's fault" meme gets a little tired. You act like the Palestinians are children that cannot be held responsible for their actions.

[muriel_volestrangler]

130. It's Israel that treats Palestinians like children

Telling them where they're allowed to live, giving them collective punishments. The point is that it's clear Israel currently will never allow Palestinians to govern themselves on their own land, so they have no incentive to chuck Hamas out. Plenty of Palestinians want revenge for their relatives that Israel has killed, while no-one else has any motive for action, and so those ones prevail. Israel's policy is "the beatings will continue until morale improves", but in this case, it's deaths, not beatings.

[George II]

161. Nor has Hamas offered an objective that fits their means....

...Israelis don't install rocket launchers in schools, or near hospitals, or near refugee shelters. That's prime real estate for Hamas' military "bases". Israeli's don't "invade" by sneaking through underground tunnels like worms.

[morningfog]

181. Israelis bomb schools, hospitals and refugee shelters. That is not even in dispute.

As for Hamas and its objective, it seems that their actions comport with their objectives. They want the blockade lifted, that is a condition of their cease-fire.

[George II]

183. True, that's not in dispute....

....but also not in dispute is that Hamas cowardly hides behind children, hospital patients, and refugees.

So, can you tell us why the leader of Hamas is "bravely" in Qatar and not Gaza?

[morningfog]

184. Who said he is brave?

I'm not here to defend Hamas. When it comes to tactics, they are as bad as the IDF, in my opinion.

However, on slaughtering innocent people, Israel is far far more worse.

[George II]

185. When was the last time the IDF planted a car bomb?

[morningfog]

188. They don't need to. They have the US bankrolling their "legitimate" bombs, which hit schools,

hospitals, shelters and children.

[George II]

190. Which they only use to respond to rocket attacks.....

I think the subject line of this discussion is a bit off...it should be " What body count is Hamas looking for this go round?" They're the ones who are essentially taunting the Israelis to respond to their rocket attacks. The Israelis killing civilians is good "PR" for Hamas. That's why they install their rocket launchers near schools, hospitals, etc. For them, the more civilian deaths the better.

[morningfog]

224. Israel is the only party responsible for killing the civilians it kills. Period.

[George II]

225. Hamas is the only party responsible for killing the civilians it kills, comma....

...and they're also the only party responsible for the continuation of the Gaza hostilities.

Now if we can only get the Hamas leader off the beach in Qatar and to the negotiating table, maybe it will all stop.

HE can end this all tomorrow.

[bravenak]

226. Likud.

Right wing party that Netanyahu belongs to is responsible for the civilian deaths.

[eridani]

90. For the same reason that kids kick the back of the driver's seat when

--they are going to Auntie Em in Kansas instead of Disneyland. Like kids, the people of Gaza ae utterly powerless. They can't do anything about being conquered and having land and water stolen. All they can do is make their conquerors enjoy the conquest slightly less.

Kicking the driver's seat can get a car run off the road. That's about how dangerous 2000 rockets are that result in only one casualty.

[hack89]

92. So one solution is for Israel to withdraw

tighten the blockade and take the rockets until either Hamas runs out or the people of Gaza has enough of Hamas.

It wouldn't be pretty in Gaza but the killing would stop.

[eridani]

95. Since 2000 rockets have one casualty, yes, they should just take the rockets

--which are a response to Israeli atrocities anyway.

[hack89]

98. The rockets were a response to Hamas' increased isolation

they felt ignored.

So you are good with a tighter blockade?

[eridani]

99. Israel should just stop it's campaign of ethnic cleansing and land theft

The rockets were a response to assassination of Hamas members. Stop lying.

[hack89]

101. Maybe the Israelis should give back Gaza as a good will measure to build trust ..oh wait.

they gave land back once - rockets were flying with in minutes of the last Israeli leaving. Do you really think that if they gave more land, that land would not be use to launch more attacks?

[Hippo_Tron]

222. The Prime Minister who disengaged from Gaza is dead, his chief rival is now Prime Minister

I'll give Ariel Sharon credit where it's due, he seemed like a warmonger on the campaign trail but he dismantled the settlements in Gaza and likely would've done much the same with the West Bank. Unfortunately, he went into a coma before he could undertake subsequent peace talks with the Palestinians to actually return sovereignty of their land back to them and his successor was too weak to get the job done. The government under Netanyahu has turned Gaza into hell on earth and has seemingly no intention of giving Palestinians actual control over it.

[malaise]

24. This inversion of reality no longer works

Find a new meme

[sabrina 1]

26. Are you okay with that? Did the children of Palestine have anything to do with

those rockets? If it goes into the thousands, say three, four, one third will be children, as it is now.

Did you read the speech of a member of the Israeli Parliament who said that Palestinian mothers should all be killed so they do not 'bear any more of those 'little rats'? Is she representative of Israel, I have not heard Netanyahu condemn those remarks so I assume he at least agrees.

So suppose they accomplish that woman's dream, what would you call it, what should WE call what SHE is calling for? The words that come to mind are 'ethnic cleansing'. Do you agree with her, she IS a member of Israel's government.

[eridani]

80. 2000 rockets and only one casualty? Gimme a break! n/t

[2banon]

64. it seems to me Israel's over all strategy is to dominate/subjugate/humiliate or

exterminate as many as they feel they can get away with every couple of years. the number of deaths do add up. I was kind of thinking about that today, how many killed just since 2002? Anyone have those figures since 1948?

Edited to complete the line of thought. Since I believe Israel never ever intends for a 2 State solution or any other political resolution with the Palestinians, it is their intention to fully occupy/dominate/control/own all of the territories/properties until the end of time. Palestinians must be eliminated one way or the other. That's the agenda.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

107. The Palestinian birth rate is higher than the number they kill every few years.

so 'exterminate' is not quite accurate. If that was on the table, there would be an end to the violence eventually, albeit in a 'final solution' sort of way. 'Mowing the grass', on the other hand is the best way to keep the violence ongoing, and therefore to keep the far right in power in the Knesset.

Their 'Republicans' love violence as much as ours.

[2banon]

132. excellent point. I think you're analysis is more accurate..

but ultimately, the "end game" is about complete dominance/ownership of ALL territories in perpetuity. That much seems clear to me, after all these decades of being fed the "terrorists" meme, I think people around the world including here in the U.S. are finally beginning to see through Likud propaganda. it's just become so damn obvious.

[muriel_volestrangler]

121. Some figures:

http://www.btselem.org/statistics/fatalities/before-cast-lead/by-date-of-event
http://www.btselem.org/statistics/fatalities/during-cast-lead/by-date-of-event
http://www.btselem.org/statistics/fatalities/after-cast-lead/by-date-of-event

29 Dec 2000-26 Dec 2008: 4905 Palestinians killed by Israelis, 1041 Israelis killed by Palestinians (609 Palestinians killed by Palestinians)
27 Dec 2008-18 Jan 2009: 1398 Palestinians killed by Israelis, 9 Israelis killed by Palestinians (18 Palestinians killed by Palestinians)
19 Jan 2009-31 May 2014: 575 Palestinians killed by Israelis, 38 Israelis killed by Palestinians (56 Palestinians killed by Palestinians)

[2banon]

133. Thank you.

I've never seen this site before, good to know about.. thanks again.

[enid602]

155. Bibi

I think your figures show declining Israeli deaths that coincide with Israel's development of the 'Iron Dome,' funded largely by the US, and borrowing heavily from US technology. I wonder if Bibi would have chosen now to 'go for broke' if he could not hide behind Uncle Sam's coattails. Bibi has said repeatedly that Hamas hides behind a 'human shield.' Isn't Bibi hiding behind a US shield?

[Puzzledtraveller]

28. but it's easy to dismiss Hamas, and the feeling of moral superiority is addictive and tempting

Thus the convenience in seeing Israel as the Goliath.

[frylock]

62. check the body count and get back

[Puzzledtraveller]

69. I don't need to.

Thank you for your concern however.

[frylock]

131. happy to help

[BlindTiresias]

159. Whereas the Likud charter in the 70's is full of love and peace?

get real you Likud propagandist and right wing troll.

[atreides1]

201. Hamas isn't the Nazi Party

And their leaders don't have the power or the assets to make that "dream" come true! Hyperbole on your part, you might want to lower the bar a little!

[hack89]

204. The blockade is responsible for that

Can you imagine if the blockade was lifted and Hamas could import any weapon they can get their hands on?

They have the intent. Fortunately they do not have the means.

[kentuck]

3. No doubt...

they dream.

[BillZBubb]

4. The Israelis have given Palestinians a lot of reasons to want to repay them with interest.

Israel's actions are recruiting coups for the radicals.

[hack89]

7. There is nothing Israel can do to placate the radicals

Their stated goal is perfectly clear - why does everyone want to discount it?

[BillZBubb]

9. Baloney. Israel does everything is can to make MORE radicals.

It is good business for the Israeli right wing to have a Hamas to galvanize Israelis.

The radical Palestinians would be a pathetic minority if Israel had ever treated the Palestinians with dignity and fairness.

[Bettie]

56. This is the thing we all need to remember, from the start of the whole thing, so many years ago...

"The radical Palestinians would be a pathetic minority if Israel had ever treated the Palestinians with dignity and fairness."

If only. Sadly, I don't think it will happen, ever. Too many hard line right wingers want endless war, just like in the US.

[morningfog]

16. And they will never achieve that goal.

So, what the fuck is Israel's goal now?

[hack89]

18. Ensure Hamas never gets strong enough to threaten Israel's survival

Keep knocking them down until they get the message that violence will not work.

[morningfog]

22. That is so ambiguous as to be meaningless.

Hamas has never been anywhere near that. Never. It never will be.

Want to know why Hamas was elected? Israel has radicalized a generation of Palestinians. What is Israel doing now? More of the same.

[hack89]

29. Hamas will never embrace peace

Peace is not what they want with Israel. There is nothing that will stop them from constantly trying to kill Jews - it is in their DNA as an organization. Perhaps the reoccupation of Gaza and the true destruction go Hamas is the only alternate to decades of low level war.

[morningfog]

37. Israel will not ever achieve that and they (and you) know it.

There will never be true destruction of Hamas through war. No thinking person can believe that. When Israel kills thousands, Hamas is strengthened. It is the rally cry.

[hack89]

50. But Israel can never give Hamas what they want

Don't you understand that? You act like Hamas is a reasonable actor willing to negotiate in good faith and compromise as needed. The are religious fundamentalists - they are neither rational or reasonable.

[morningfog]

63. You act like all Palestinians are Hamas.

[hack89]

81. Hamas is in control

Perhaps for their best interest they should get rid of Hamas

[morningfog]

83. Perhaps Israel should stop targeting children, schools, hospitals and shelters.

Israel is Hamas' biggest recruiter.

[nomorenomore08]

78. "They are religious fundamentalists." So are Israel's leaders, by and large.

The number of fanatics on both sides makes any peaceful solution all the more difficult. But what Israel is doing right now - bombing Palestinian civilians - isn't the answer either.

[Comrade Grumpy]

27. "Keep knocking them down until they get the message that violence will not work."

A true master of irony.

[hack89]

30. Hamas want the eradication of Israel

You can't negotiate with people like that.

[eridani]

94. And I want to date Robert Redford

Maybe my husband should kill me.

[hack89]

96. But you haven't been stalking Robert Redford for decades

Hamas, on the other hand, has been constantly trying to kill and kidnap Israelis. Lets not forget their suicide bombing campaign that led to Israel building the wall.

Their charter calls for the eradication of Israel. Just because they haven't succeeded does not mean that they are reasonable people that are willing to talk and compromise for peace. It simply means they are another fundamentalist group that views the immolation of themselves and their people as an acceptable end.

[2banon]

68. Well Said.

[woo me with science]

186. +1000

[Spider Jerusalem]

61. The most powerful military in the Middle East and the only one with nuclear weapons.

Against children with stones and a rabble of poorly organised militants with smuggled rockets that are in reality more nuisance than threat. Whose survival is threatened, here?

[2banon]

67. your logic here is so deeply flawed, that it's actually funny, if it weren't so tragic.

[cpwm17]

19. You've lost all touch with reality

and excusing evil at the same time.

[hack89]

21. That is rich coming from you

Do you think Hamas is lying when they say the eradication of Israel is their goal?

[malaise]

25. One is saying it while the other is doing it

Guess which one!

[hack89]

34. That is what happens in wars

Perhaps Hamas should stop shooting rockets.

[morningfog]

40. I don't doubt that Hamas holds that position.

What I do doubt is whether the majority of Palestinians want that. But, when Israel slaughters them by the thousands, Hamas looks like a pretty good representative. Who would you choose to represent you when you felt your life was on the line. Make a people desperate, they will choose to fight.

[hack89]

44. Israel can never give Hamas what they desire

National suicide is not going to happen. I would not support a government who sacrifices the lives of their people to further unreachable goals.

[nomorenomore08]

79. Yet you don't seem to care how many Palestinian lives are "sacrificed."

And I don't think many old people or little kids are Hamas members.

[cpwm17]

51. Over the last almost seventy years Israel has given them every reason to state that as a goal

because you know what is happening in reality: Israel is destroying Palestine. Normal human beings don't like that, particularly. That is the reality that is happening on the ground. The oppressed have no obligation to like their oppressors.

Right-wing authoritarians love your philosophy: steal from and brutalize a population and use their response as an excuse to continue: rinse and repeat.

In addition to the long term severe oppression, Israel is the aggressor in this particular one sided conflict. That's reality. You have the philosophy of a criminal bully. You support the aggressor.

I know, you can't understand why some liberals give a damn about several million brown people on the other side of the world. But you strangely do give a damn about the abusers, as if talking bad about the abusers is worse than defending the abuser. How many millions of people need to be abused before it's legal to give a damn?

[HooptieWagon]

54. ^^^

[hack89]

86. Nice rant. Well done

[Spazito]

53. Israel and you know that is an empty threat...

Hamas has crudely made rockets, Israel has state of the art weaponry including nuclear weapons. Israel will survive and thrive, the Palestinians' survival is the one in question.

I used to buy into the argument you put forth but the reality of who is most likely to survive and thrive and who is being oppressed, whose land is being systematically stolen, whose quality of life is being degraded to the point of struggling for mere existence has brought me into the realization of what is true versus what is being sold as true.

[840high]

59. They're not lying. It's their

only goal.

[sabrina 1]

31. That's nonsense and more and more that is how the world is seeing these talking points.

If they keep this up and continue to kill civilians, they will turn the world towards Hamas, do you not understand that? People are now beginning to wonder if Hamas exists BECAUSE of Israel's brutal treatment of the Palestinians which was going on BEFORE Hamas existed. What was their excuse then?

[hack89]

36. The world routinely ignores greater slaughters

There is no indication that the world will embrace Hamas.

[sabrina 1]

45. You need to pay more attention to what the world reaction to this is.

Most people have no stake in this conflict so they simply see the little children being slaughtered and they don't get it, and they hear the heartless remarks from Israelis about those children 'little rats' as one their leaders said, and they are sickened. Most know little about Hamas so they look at who is dying and who is doing the killing.

Protests and boycotts are going on all over the world. Some of the pro-Israel rallies planned have been cancelled, for fear that the turnout would be so small it would be embarrassing. They are correct, that probably is what would happen.

It isn't Israel doing this, it is their far right radical government and I cannot for the life of me understand how any Liberal could support those radical right wingers.

[hack89]

47. It is OWS all over again

Noisy, trendy and ineffective. The reality is that Israel's economy is doing well and companies have absolutely no problem getting all the investment capital they need.

[hack89]

85. OWS is a spent force in America

When was the last time you saw them in the news?

[hack89]

135. An invisible force with invisible results.

a hell of a social movement.

[hack89]

138. But trendy ineffective social movements are relevant

we were talking about BDS - I think OWS is a proper comparison.

[hack89]

143. You too. nt

[Caretha]

114. To answer your question Sabrina

"I cannot for the life of me understand how any Liberal could support those radical right wingers."

If someone talks or walks like a radical right winger...they are not a Liberal...they are a dumb fuck right wing numb nuts.

[Puzzledtraveller]

38. The hatred and loathing of Israel must be pretty strong to seemingly

ignore or forget that Hamas declared homosexuality punishable by death.

[sabrina 1]

46. Don't waste your time trying that 'hatred for Israel' routine. It is shock and horror at the Far

Right Government over there. Support for Israel doesn't explain any Liberal finding themselves on the same side as one of the most far right governments in the world.

[Puzzledtraveller]

48. Hamas is far right too, very, very far right are they not?

[sabrina 1]

55. Our tax dollars are not funding Hamas, Hamas has zero influence over this government

But the far right government of Israel is taking billions of dollars from US tax payers and using it to pay for these murderous wars. Hamas would not exist, it DID NOT exist if it were not for the treatment of the Palestinians.

But even when our State Dept takes an action to protect US citizens, eg, issues an order to commercial airlines to avoid flying to Israel, and Netanyahu throws a temper tantrum, and the US caves. Amazing, our govt puts Netanyahu's wishes before the safety of its own citizens. Did we elect this guy or something, he seems to have a whole lot of influence over our government, the question is 'why'?

Hamas has zero influence here, so they are of no interest to me, I live here, not in Israel, I care about THIS COUNTRY first.

[Capt. Obvious]

87. I dream of no longer seeing these posts on DU

[eridani]

91. That's roughly equivalent to me dreaming about dating Robert Redford

Maybe my husband should kill me.

[hack89]

93. Either Hamas believes their charter or they don't

every action they have take since their inception says that killing jews is what they do. Remember the suicide bombings? So what is Israel to do - allow them to acquire the powerful weapons they want to kill jews? Because there are plenty of countries willing to help them do exactly that. Or to do everything in their power to prevent it?

[eridani]

97. If all those powerful countries want to give them advanced weapons, why haven't they done so?

Israel created Hamas after all, to counter the secular PLO which is willing to recongnize Israel.

[hack89]

100. Because of the blockade

every year Israel intercepts shipments of arms from Iran to Gaza. Every year.

Lets remember that Hamas has ties to both Iran and their proxy Hezbollah.

[eridani]

103. Still, some should have gotten through, right?

Israel created Hezbollah as well, with the invasion of Lebanon. Israel (or more accurately Likud, shich significant numbers of Israelis oppose) does not want to deal with secular nationalists who want peace and recognize Israel's existence.

[hack89]

105. "Hamas Firing China-Designed, Syria-Made M-302 Rockets"

Smuggled Syrian-made rockets based on a Chinese design have boosted Hamas' 10,000-strong arsenal which is dominated by crude homemade devices, officials and experts say.

A surface-to-surface weapon that struck the coastal town Hadera - 30 miles north of Tel Aviv and 70 miles from the Gaza Strip - is an “M-302 type rocket” similar to a shipment of rockets Israel intercepted at sea in March, the Israeli Defense Forces said Wednesday.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/middle-east-unrest/hamas-firing-china-designed-syria-made-m-302-rockets-israel-n152461

For one with such passionate views on the matter, you don't seem to be very well informed on what is actually happening. Instead of posting your questions here, perhaps you should simply put them in Google.

[eridani]

108. "Dominated by crode homemade devices" Read your own reference.

Israel has no right to gripe about organizations they created, like Hamas and Hezbollah. The US is supporting fundies in Syria to get rid of the secular Assad, so you can blame those weapons on our own policy. When wil imperialists ever take blowback seriously and stop trying to fucking dominate everything?

[hack89]

109. Because the blockade is effective

what do you think would happen if Israel lifted the blockade? Be honest for once and give me a straight answer.

[eridani]

111. If it did that and ended the land and resource theft as well. Hamas would no longer have support

It is Israel that prefers Hamas to the PLO after all.

[hack89]

113. What does popular support have to do with it?

don't you think that Hamas would rule by force if they had to? Lets not forget that killing and terrorizing other Muslims by radical groups is happening right now in Syria and Iraq. There are no functioning Arab democracies so the notion that a group needs popular support to rule is nonsense.

[morningfog]

137. Interesting. You think Arabs are incapable of self-governance?

And the support has a helluva lot to do with it when people suggest that a Palestinian deserves to die because they elected Hamas. You may have even said something to that effect at some point.

[hack89]

139. Point out to me a model Arab democracy

one that you would like to live under.

The issue is simple - they have yet to find a way to corral their crazies and let moderate voices come to the fore.

[morningfog]

141. In other words, popular support is critical to equation.

[hack89]

142. No. Corralling the crazies so that popular support of moderate views is possible is what is needed

a small group of heavily armed men on a mission from God don't care about popular support.

[morningfog]

144. In other words, the Palestinian civilians that have been killed by Israel are innocent

victims of both Hamas and Israel?

[hack89]

145. Yes. They are caught in the cross fire

rule by a group that cares less about their well being. They are human shields to protect Hamas' military power and nothing else.

[morningfog]

146. Then Israel commits war crimes by knowingly and intentionally killing them.

[hack89]

147. It is not that straight forward

international law is not a suicide pact. You are saying that Hamas can attack Israel with impunity and there is nothing Israel can do if there is a chance of killing a civilian. International law says otherwise - nations always have the right to self defense and the use of human shields is a war crime. The deliberate targeting of civilians is illegal - that picture gets a lot murkier when legitimate military targets are deliberately collocated with civilians.

[hack89]

123. Israel did not create Hamas

in the 1980's the Israelis officially recognized a precursor to Hamas, Mujama Al-Islamiya, as a charity and let them set up hospitals and schools. It was hoped that they would be a counterweight to the PLO. It was not a militant group. When they morphed into a radical terrorist group called Hamas in the 1990's, Israel's ongoing war with them started.

[BlindTiresias]

160. Care to look up the Likud charter?

Of course you wouldn't mention that, being a right winger.

[hack89]

162. So supporting Israel = right winger?

Got it. I suggest you check in with reality. The majority of Americans including Dems support Israel. It is hard for most to support terrorist groups - you being an exception of course.

[BlindTiresias]

163. Unambiguously endorsing Likud positions makes you a Likud supporter

Hope that helps.

Edit: By the way your conflation of the far right and Israel is an insult to the Israeli people.

[hack89]

164. What does your support of Hamas make you? nt

[BlindTiresias]

165. Sadly

I never endorsed Hamas, but nice try. If you had actually read my posts instead of going by a Likud playbook you would realize this.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025295716#post6

So do you have an actual argument or are you going to thrash around more in defense of the undefinable? I bid you to embrace your God-given human compassion and see this oppression for what it is and move past the evil intentions of the Israeli right wing and into an equitable future for Jew and Arab alike.

[hack89]

166. Hamas needs to stop shooting rockets

And the killing will stop. Hamas has no right to attack Israel. They have no right to build tunnels into Israel. I think Hamas has to demilitarize. That is what I believe.

[BlindTiresias]

167. I bid you

To research the order of events and realize that both parties are morally culpable, but more to the point, Israel is the stronger in this fight and with that strength comes certain expectations in terms of de-escalation.

Are you familiar with the order of events leading to this situation?

[hack89]

168. The order of events goes back to 2007

When Hamas took control of Gaza and have routinely tried to kill as many Israelis as possible. Hamas should not have an arsenal of rockets or have built tunnels into Israel. Israel forcibly remove settlers from Gaza as a trust building measure. Hamas responded within minutes with rockets. Hamas has an absolute moral imperative to disarm.

[BlindTiresias]

169. I said in this situation

Do you think Israel has any responsibility for what is happening whatsoever?

[hack89]

170. They are in an impossible situation

No country will accept ceaseless rocket attacks on their cities and town. Hamas wants a war- there is nothing that Israel can do to placate them.

[BlindTiresias]

171. So

Israel has no moral culpability whatsoever since its foundation and in terms of their right wing's policies regarding Palestinians? Even now when the balance of power is overwhelmingly in favor of Israel?

[hack89]

172. Wars are ugly

And innocents get hurt. Until someone comes along to replace Hamas and places the Palestinians on a peaceful path I am not sure things will change.

[BlindTiresias]

173. Ok?

But you are saying that all responsibility is upon the Palestinians, yes?

[hack89]

174. They are the aggressors in this situation

Both with the rockets and the tunnels into Israel. They should have neither and you know it.

[BlindTiresias]

175. I think my point

Is that there are two aggressors in this situation with moral culpability. Your insistence to paint the Palestinians as the exclusive aggressor and especially in light of the brutal policies of the Israeli right wing makes your position extremely dubious. Why do you give the Israeli right wing a pass when both parties are responsible? This is pure ideology and you know it.

[hack89]

177. Those right wingers gave Gaza to the Palestinians

Israels response to rocket attacks, suicide bombers, and tunnels would be no different if a left leaning government was in power. No government will let their citizens be attacked incessantly.

[BlindTiresias]

179. Kind of missing the larger picture here

Specifically the settlements and the colonial attitudes of the Israeli right wing towards Palestinians in policy and stated intent. I think it is clear to all that you are a Likud apologist and refuse even the slightest concessions in terms of moral culpability in the interests of peace in order to pursue an ideological goal. Your unwavering position is that of an extremist and this too is likely clear to all.

What a far right winger is doing here is a mystery to me, but your stated positions put you clearly in the right wing.

[hack89]

180. The settlements are illegal

But that is not why Hamas is shooting rockets. And you know it.

[BlindTiresias]

189. Rocket attacks

In 2013 the rocket attacks were virtually non-existent, having been curbed by 98%. They only resumed -after- the Israelis engaged in a reprisal campaign for the three kidnapped teenagers (which hamas did not even kidnap). Is this clear to you?

Here let me be more clear: [img][/img]

Furthermore: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4536174,00.html

Do your research and show come compassion. Stop being a blind ideologue.

[hack89]

191. There were rocket attacks every month for 18 months - is that clear to you?

And you think that is acceptable? Wow.

[BlindTiresias]

192. read the article

Not even Hamas, Hamas was intentionally curbing rocket attacks in that time period as part of reconciling with the Fatah party in order to have a comprehensive leadership in Palestinian territories so they could once again go to the bargaining table with Israel and iron out a permanent solution.

You do realize that Hamas does not have total control over Palestinian territory and considering how factionalized it is a 98% reduction is a big deal, yes? You are essentially asking for a highly factionalized territory (not even a state) to have uniform control over its factions in the manner of a first world nation state. This is an unreasonable expectation. By your logic we should be over in Mexico bombing their cities because drug cartel factions have kidnapped and murdered Americans.

[hack89]

193. Bull shit

Hamas could stop the rockets in a heart beat. They just know it will trigger a civil war. They are a terror organization - they know how control people.

[BlindTiresias]

194. They aren't an organized national army

And they DID stop the rockets in that time period, THEIR rockets. How are they going to stop other factions from launching rockets?

[hack89]

195. They are the elected government of Gaza

They have a police force and an uniformed military wing. They can stop the rockets.

[BlindTiresias]

196. They did

THEIR rockets and the total launches were reduced by 98%, are you expecting the complete and total cessation in a highly factionalized environment?

[hack89]

197. Yes - that is what responsible governments do

Gaza is small. Hamas knows exactly who shoots rockets. Stop justifying violence.

[BlindTiresias]

198. By this logic

We should have launched a military campaign on Mexico and started bombing cities because their drug cartel factions have murdered Americans to the tune of about 500 individuals or so.

I'm sorry, but the time it takes to launch something like the Qassam-1 is miniscule, you would only know it was launched when it is too late. The same goes for the mortars. You are expecting a degree of national control that is an almost impossible standard to meet in factionalized environments.

[hack89]

199. They can arrest the shooters after the fact

They have supporters and informers everywhere. They can offer massive rewards.

[BlindTiresias]

200. That would risk a further fragmentation

And likely devolve into a shooting war between the other factions and Hamas which would likely throw a wrench into the reconciliation with Fatah they were in the process of going through.

At any rate I think a 98% reduction is impressive considering the situation. I am assuming you would not be satisfied until the number of launches reaches zero?

[hack89]

202. So the IDF doesn't have to reduce their strikes to zero?

Is that what you are arguing - shelling civilian areas is ok below a certain threshold? A one for one retaliation is ok?

[BlindTiresias]

203. Huh?

National army with tight command and control versus an array of militant factions. Furthermore, you just glossed over the fact that those rockets/mortars were not from Hamas. So yes, I would give the IDF a pass if a faction of terrorists were acting beyond the orders of the IDF because those are two separate organizations.

But please answer the question. Is your expectation the complete and total cessation of launches by all factions uniformly, even in spite of an active effort to curb them?

[hack89]

205. So Hamas is not a true government? Is that what I am hearing?

If Hamas can't stop the rockets then they should step aside and let Israeli police into Gaza. How about that?

[BlindTiresias]

206. I'm saying governments often have a difficult time rounding up factions

If you sincerely think this then that is fine.

[hack89]

207. But the rockets have to stop, correct?

And if Hamas can't stop them then Israel has the right to stop them. Right?

[BlindTiresias]

208. Would this also apply to Mexico?

[hack89]

210. Yes. Nt

[BlindTiresias]

213. Lol

So we should invade Mexico? Go back to Free Republic.

[hack89]

215. No reason to invade - not until they start shooting rockets at US cites

If that was to happen and the Mexican government was complicit in the violence then it would be an act of war and we could respond militarily. Basic international law. Even you should understand that.

[BlindTiresias]

216. ??

Drug cartels have killed 500 americans, why are you privileging rockets fired from rogue factions over bullets fired from rogue factions? At least stay consistent.

[hack89]

217. Crime is not an act of war

Shooting rockets would be.

Besides, the Mexican government is cooperating with us to solve the problem.

[BlindTiresias]

218. Yep

And Hamas stopped their rocket attacks and was working to stop them altogether, which is why they were reduced by 98%. You seem to not be understanding that during the period I am referring to none of the rocket attacks were perpetrated by Hamas, which....

Makes them criminal acts and not the actions of the governing authority

[hack89]

219. There are DEA agents in Mexico

Perhaps Hamas should invite Israeli police to Gaza. Make it a criminal action.

[BlindTiresias]

221. They can't

The Palestinian territories are in a legal limbo, not a state but also not acknowledged as an occupied territory. If you believe in a one state solution that is fine and I would likely agree, but the Israeli right wing do not agree with this position and they are the ones calling the shots.

[hack89]

223. Then Hamas better get their shit together

Or they will be crushed. The rockets must stop and the tunnels destroyed.

Perhaps an international movement to demilitarize Gaza in exchange for lifting the blockade.

[hack89]

220. What about the tunnels into Israel?

Hamas built them. They have no purpose other than terrorist attacks on Israel. They must be destroyed for there to be peace. Surely Israel has the right to destroy them.

[Alittleliberal]

227. You must be kidding?

The order of events goes back way further then 2007

[hack89]

228. Not the blockade

Don't forget that Palestinians once routinely commuted daily Gaza for jobs in Israel. Then the suicide bombings started and the wall went up.

[Reter]

119. Sucks that Israel created Hamas

n/t

[hack89]

120. Sucks that the Palestinians choose them to be their leaders.

too bad they will never be given the opportunity through the ballot box to undo that mistake.

[hack89]

122. That is not really true

in the 1980's the Israelis officially recognized a precursor to Hamas, Mujama Al-Islamiya, as a charity and let them set up hospitals and schools. It was hoped that they would be a counterweight to the PLO. It was not a militant group. When they morphed into a radical terrorist group called Hamas in the 1990's, Israel's ongoing war with them started.

What is the lesson learned here? That Israel should never allow Muslim charities to set roots because they may turn in terrorists? What should have Israel have done 30 years ago?

[BillZBubb]

6. This isn't about eradicating Hamas.

The Israeli right loves Hamas. The existence of Hamas keeps them in power and enables their territorial ambitions. If Hamas didn't exist, the Israelis would create a similar whipping boy.

[Maedhros]

72. Hamas is to the Israel hardliners as Al Qaeda is to the American Military-Industrial Complex.

It's a symbiotic relationship.

[treestar]

209. This ^^^^^^^

Israel intends to take all the land without admitting it. There's always going to be an excuse.

[RobertEarl]

8. Hamas made Israel do this?

I've read that a lot: Hamas made Israel attack Gaza.

If so, then Israel is just reacting?

Then I read something like this report:
*******************

A report issued by the authoritative the “Meir Amit Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center” (ITIC), a private Israeli think tank that “has close ties with the country’s military leadership,” unintentionally debunked the Senate resolution more than a week before its unanimous consent vote in the Senate. The weekly ITIC reports regarding rocket fire are frequently quoted on the Israeli government’s own web site.

The ITIC July 8, 2014 report,“News of Terrorism and the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict (July 2 – 8, 2014),” states: “For the first time sinceOperation Pillar of Defense , Hamas participated in and claimed responsibility for rocket fire .”

The July 8 ITIC report also divulged why Hamas launched its first rocket fire at Israel in more than 19 months on July 7: On that night Israeli forces had bombed and killed 6 Hamas members in Gaza. The ITIC report includes a picture of the six Hamas members. Thus, a report from an authoritative Israeli source described the provocation for the resumption of rocket fire: Hamas rocket fire began only after Israeli forces had engaged in nearly a month of military operations in violation of the ceasefire agreement and had killed 6 Hamas members in Gaza.

*******************

[BillZBubb]

13. Shhhh! You are not supposed to know this!

You see Hamas made the Israelis violate the cease fire. It's all Hamas' fault.

[RobertEarl]

32. They blame the victims

Same old story. It's the wrong-wingers way of pissing on everyone and claiming it's raining.

When presented with facts, they run away and hide. Watch and see if that star on this thread dares a hack at the facts.

[U4ikLefty]

74. lol...nice

[George II]

158. What is the source of that report?

[morningfog]

14. Absolutely. THey have a number of dead in mind. They'll only stop when they think

the PR is too much against them.

[BillZBubb]

15. Unfortunately, given the subservience of the US to Israeli policy,

they can pretty much go on murdering Palestinians forever and still get their annual tribute.

[kentuck]

35. If they don't already have the American drones...

they will soon be on their way.

[sabrina 1]

39. Exactly, mostly I blame the US for this. Without the US support for just about

everything they do, this could not happen. I don't get it, most of the time you can figure out why certain policies exist, Corporate influence eg, the MIC. But how does it benefit the US to be so blindly supportive of Israel? Without us they have no power.

So what are we missing? There has to be a missing piece here. I've never seen anything like it, the blind support, even though we know some of our leaders, see Kerry's remarks when the mike wasn't turned off, don't seem particularly happy with Israel.

Are we storing our nukes there, laundering money there, what? It makes no sense at all.

[BillZBubb]

43. Agreed. It makes no sense.

American politicians FEAR something. The long reach of AIPAC? I don't know.

[sabrina 1]

49. AIPAC is just another lobbying group. I agree our politicians are in fear of opposing

Israel no matter how criminal their actions are. And it's disturbing that ANY foreign nation should be instilling that kind of fear into our our government. We should be the ones instilling fear in them, refusing to support them when they go off the deep end like this, holding back funding etc.

Eg, the US State Dept issues a warning against flying to Israel. There was OUTRAGE from Israel's government. As if our State Dept has not right to try to protect THEIR citizens. Within hours, the US Govt caved. I just don't get it.

[lofty1]

156. They have access to our communications

I get it.

"When Congress passed the 1994 Communications Assistance for Law Enforcement Act (CALEA), all telephone networks operating within the United States were required by law to install equipment that would allow the FBI and other investigative agencies to tap your phone. At the time, that technology did not exist in the United States as an off-the-shelf product, but Comverse Infosys, a company headquartered in Israel, stepped into this market void with its well-developed telcom network surveillance systems.

By the year 2000, practically every broadband-capable phone system in the US and in many foreign countries were in the process of installing Comverse Infosys systems. Comverse Technology, Inc. is now also the leading vendor of commercially-available web-based surveillance equipment through its subsidiary, Verint. The company describes its products as capable of intercepting virtually all forms of network communications worldwide: http://www.verint.com/lawful_interception/index.cfm "

[sabrina 1]

157. That would seem to be a security breach, wouldn't it? Why not fix it?

Thanks for the link, I didn't know. There is such potential for blackmail in all of these systems. Seems like it's time to start doing something about it.

[EX500rider]

148. They most likely want to please the majority of voters.

CNN Poll: Majority of Americans side with Israel in Gaza fighting

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2014/07/21/cnn-poll-americans-clearly-side-with-israel-in-gaza-fighting/

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

152. several reasons.

1. they give us a toehold ally in the middle east. (The Cold War brigade's reason.)
2. for RW christianistas, they need to be there so that biblical prophecy can be fulfilled in the future. (The theocrats' reason.)
3. the tax dollars we send flow onward to arms manufacturers. (The plutocrats' reason.)

Americans who actually give a damn about the longterm welfare of the people of Israel don't want to see them continuing under the current stupidity of the RW Likud any more than Americans who give a damn about the longterm welfare of the people of America want to see us continuing under the stupidity of RW Republicans.

[truedelphi]

178. A DU member once gave an accounting of how much aid we gave to UAE states and to

Israel, between the end of the summer of 2010, and for the next thirteen months. Some 255 BILLIONS of dollars, if you want the precise figure. Meanwhile, the average American was facing a job loss, learning to like Hamburger helper, and trying to avoid foreclosure.

In California, our roads are going to hell. And local activities and community offerings are slim to non-existent. Witness the swimming pool for which the citizens of Lakeport Calif. could not get the $ 40,000 for the needed repairs.

Meanwhile we have tens of billions in weaponrey to keep the Middle East under perpetual war machinations.

It is not "only" the tragedy of all these dead women and children. But every dead body represents another half million Americans in poverty because of our Trillion dollar war budget.

[sabrina 1]

182. It's despicable, billions spent on killing people overseas, and they fight like crazy to deny

Americans unemployment benefits mostly caused by their policies. I am amazed there aren't millions in the streets here to be honest.

And if any of it had done any good, it would at least be somewhat excusable, but everywhere we have spent all this money, things are WORSE than they were before. Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan, Ukraine, Syria, Somalia, no matter where we go with all of our money, it results in nothing but bloodshed and heartbreak for everyone, except of course the war profiteers.

[truedelphi]

229. ^^^^^^^^^ n/t

[oldandhappy]

57. Israel wants to pound Hamas into submission.

Israel and Palestine need to recognize each other, set up states, guarantee borders, and then open borders and let the life of their citizens bloom. I am no longer in favor of one side or the other. I want both to stop killing, start living. Both are guilty of atrocities. Both must forgive and move on to economic growth for the sake of the people. The the U.S. needs to stop allowing Israeli money into our politics. It definitely influences our foreign policy in not-rational ways. As long as we are only pro-Israel, the wars will continue.

[hrmjustin]

60. Netanyahu doesn't realize or doesn't care about the damage he is doing to Israel's standing in thr

world. There will only be peace when he and his party is out.

[JI7]

65. i agree, Netanyahu needs to go , he is like dragging down the country like Bush did here

[Major Hogwash]

73. ^^THIS^^

I agree with this, Netanyahu has an ego the size of Texas.
He doesn't care if people think he is a war criminal.

[DemocraticWing]

66. There are about 6,000,000 Jews in Israel/Palestine, and about 6,000,000 Arabs in Israel/Palestine

It seems like Israel is trying to open up a lead in population figures so they can avoid being outnumbered.

[2banon]

70. hmm, that's an interesting point.

something to look into....thnx..

[Bonobo]

71. ...is a shit question much like

"When did you stop beating your wife?"

[Board_Commentary]

149. It is a legitimate question.

Answer it. how many?

[Bonobo]

150. I will tell you why it is shit instead.

Because it presumes that there IS a number. That is, that their is a number of deaths that is the actual goal before fighting will be stopped.

And that is false AND stupid AND disgusting to suggest.

[Board_Commentary]

151. I get what you are saying now.

So it's a forever-war then.

I get it, that's cool I guess, no totals. Kind of like the War on Terror™ Okay, I can understand why the question is shit, because it assumes Israel wants to eventually not kill Palestinians for show.

Word.

Tricky tricky I thought you were trying to apologize for Israel's Behavior. I'm sorry, that was my bad.

[morningfog]

154. No, I think there is a number of dead that beyond which it is no longer politically

palatable. And another number under which the Israeli government will not feel they had flexed enough muscle to claim victory.

[4now]

75. I have heard that they are going for 1500 before they stop

[WinkyDink]

89. They could try blowing up planes, trains, and automobiles, like the Palestinians have done.

school and cafes, too!

[Lodestar]

76. I also wonder how many civilian deaths the U.S. will allow to pile up

as they hunt "terrorists" with drones, etc. in civilian areas around the world? Isn't that also a war crime?

[cpwm17]

212. Yes, and only a minority of DU members support that form of murder by the US

Unfortunately we at DU don't control our foreign policy. I think that should be a new constitutional amendment.

[ellenrr]

82. well...last onslaught the death toll was 1400, and this one is said to be more widespread... nt

[WinkyDink]

88. Your first paragraph is absurd. But you at least acknowledge that Hamas is not legitimate.

[morningfog]

102. Unfortunately Israel legitimizes Hamas.

When Israel targets schools, hospitals, children and refugee camps, Hamas is only strengthened. Same with the blockades.

The framing of my first paragraph is my way if asking "what is Israel's actual objective here?" Israel's current war is not going to bring peace or greater security to the people of Israel. And the longer it goes on, the clearer that becomes.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

104. 'Israel' is sloppy wording. There are quite a few pro-peace Israelis

who disagree with what the IDF and the far-righties in the Knesset are pushing along.

As to 'the magic number', I'm beginning to suspect it will be whatever number causes the next intafada (sp?), because extremists on both sides gain more power when things are absolutely crap between the two peoples.

[morningfog]

106. Fair point. I take issue when all Palistinians are lumped

with Hamas. The same is true for Israel and it's military wing.

[seveneyes]

110. Israel solved the suicide bombings of their pizza shops

I trust they will also solve the latest attempts of those trying to kill innocent Israeli citizens.

[justiceischeap]

112. By killing more innocent Palestinian citizens?

Sure, might makes right, got it.

No one in this whole rigmarole is innocent except the people (on both sides).

This has everything to do with two powers of authority basically measuring their dicks, innocent civilians be damned. I can condemn the Israeli government's actions just as well as I can condemn Hamas' but that doesn't mean either side is without guilt in all this.



This would piss me off too but it doesn't condone what Hamas does any more than it condones Israel targeting hospitals, schools, etc. Why can't a government as powerful as Israel, with the support of the US behind it besides, go in a overthrow Hamas? They've practically annexed the entire of Palestine for themselves, just take sovereignty over what's left and allow the Palestinians to live in peace without taking more of their land and killing innocent people?

[Turbineguy]

115. Do I have to

stop beating my wife in order to answer that question?

[MythosMaster]

117. 2,000,000

[DisgustedTX]

176. Holocaust! Anti-Semite!

Pro-Israeli reactions are as predictable as Rove indictors.

[woo me with science]

187. Also, have you seen that NOVEL?!

[WatermelonRat]

211. The war will go on until Hamas is either unwilling or unable to continue firing rockets.

[BillZBubb]

214. Nonsense.

The slaughter by the Israelis will go on until they've weakened, but not destroyed Hamas. They need Hamas around for an excuse next time.