Genocide in Gaza

[eridani]

Human Rights Newsletter" <[e-mail]>

My 82 year old mother can't take it anymore. She comes upstairs to tell me to ask me what she can do. She asked me to watch TV with her because she is too depressed to see it alone. We flip through the few channels that are not bought and paid for by racists. We watch as victims form the latest Israeli massacre in Gaza piled into one hospital. Hundreds of people are around the hospital grounds in shock at the scene. I ask her not to watch TV too much and I reassure her that we are doing things. We donated, we had demonstrations here in Bethlehem, we speak out, we encourage boycotts, divestment, and sanctions.

She said "but Israel continues its massacres and they have been doing it for decades". (my mother's friend in school in Jerusalem was murdered in Deir Yassin). I do not know what to tell her so I walk up her to ask you. What will we collectively do? This latest is a massacre of civilians in a United Nations school. Over 60,000 Palestinians were driven from their homes by Israeli shelling and the UN opened its schools to shelter them. Those killed left their homes with nothing to seek safety. In this instance 16 civilians (so far) were murdered and over 200 were injured (many severely). This despite the fact the the UN gave all school shelter coordinates to the Israeli army days ago. Dozens of injured children laid on floors soaked with blood as their mothers and siblings wailed uncontrollably. After Israel shelled three hospitals and with over 6000 injured, there are no hospital space let alone beds.

Doctors are collapsing as they have worked 24 hours a day and some for days without sleep and with limited available supplies that are now running out as Egyptian government still collaborates with Israel in this genocide. And yes I call it genocide because it fits under the International Convention dealing with genocide. Genocide is never measured by its success rate but by intention. Israel intended since 1948 and before) to destroy a whole group of people politically, culturally and physically. Every day 50, 60, or 70 Palestinian civilians are massacred while the leaders of countrieslike Canada support this! Their citizens must stand-up and say enough is enough. Netanyahu and all his henchmen should be brought to the Hague immediately for crimes against humanity. If you think I am too harsh in my judgment please read more below and watch tapes and interact via social media (e.g. you can find us on face book).

[hack89]

1. Pretty fucked up genocide given how much the Palestinian population has increased in 60 years

why are you trivializing real genocide?

[malaise]

10. All genocide is real

and this is genocide. It's not only genocide when the slaughter is of people you support.


800+ dead this time around and that's mere trivia to you.

[hack89]

13. So any number of deaths greater than 2 is genocide?

or is 800 the magic number?

It is not trivial. It is also not genocide. Genocide is defined by international law.

[malaise]

14. Spare me the obfuscation

It doesn't work with me - 800+ dead this time around - last time it was close to 1,500.
Take your two and shove it.

[hack89]

15. So 9/11 was genocide?

certainly a lot more than 800.

[RobertEarl]

43. This is genocide what Israel is doing

They put them all in camp Gaza and now it is like shooting fish in a barrel.

I can't believe anyone here would support such atrocities.

*********************
What about this, hack?

A report issued by the authoritative the “Meir Amit Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center” (ITIC), a private Israeli think tank that “has close ties with the country’s military leadership,” unintentionally debunked the Senate resolution more than a week before its unanimous consent vote in the Senate. The weekly ITIC reports regarding rocket fire are frequently quoted on the Israeli government’s own web site.

The ITIC July 8, 2014 report, “News of Terrorism and the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict (July 2 – 8, 2014),” states: “For the first time since Operation Pillar of Defense , Hamas participated in and claimed responsibility for rocket fire .”

The July 8 ITIC report also divulged why Hamas launched its first rocket fire at Israel in more than 19 months on July 7: On that night Israeli forces had bombed and killed 6 Hamas members in Gaza. The ITIC report includes a picture of the six Hamas members. Thus, a report from an authoritative Israeli source described the provocation for the resumption of rocket fire: Hamas rocket fire began only after Israeli forces had engaged in nearly a month of military operations in violation of the ceasefire agreement and had killed 6 Hamas members in Gaza.

*******************

DU link: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025287123

[cloudbase]

35. That statement alone voids your argument. n/t

[sabrina 1]

64. While the slaughter in Rwanda was in progress, the UN and all the World's Leaders,

argued over whether it was Genocide or just, well, plain old mass murder. The reason they were arguing was that apparently how the slaughter was labeled would determine whether they had the legal right to intervene. By the time they came to a conclusion, it was genocide, it was too late for the approximately 800,000 victims.

A rose is a rose, a rose by any other name would smell as sweet

Mass murder is mass murder, arguing over terminology doesn't change that fact.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

24. Genocide is what Hamas wants to perpetrate on Israel and anyone else they don't like.

Every place they and their sympathizers gain control is ethnically cleansed of Jews, Christians and others.

800+ dead this time around and that's mere trivia to you.

The Fatah-Hamas conflict claimed 600+. Is 700 the magic cut-of score for moral outrage?

[treestar]

72. That is a good point about the overall population increase

makes it a very unsuccessful genocide. In fact the Palestinians having a greater population overall and greater growth is the reason some Israelis opposed the one state solution - the Palestinians could end up a majority too quickly.

[Scootaloo]

78. I usually find little common ground with hack... but...

he's right. "Genocide" has a very specific meaning - the attempted eradication of a race or ethnicity.

if this were genocide, Israel would be attempting to eradicate Arabs, Palestinian and otherwise. it's not doing so.

Nor can it really be termed ethnic cleansing in this particular case, as the people of the territory cannot flee, and thus cannot be "purged." And while it's a disgusting number, 826 really is a drop in the 1.7 million people of Gaza.

However, these terms are just two categories of a broader term, democide, the attempted removal or dissolution of any polity of people; race, religion, nationality, political belief, etc, whether through violence, exile, or oppression.

For example, the US-run Indian boarding schools that prioritized the removal of native culture from their wards, was an example of democide - termed often "cultural genocide," though that's more of a colloquialism.

Israel is perpetrating democide in Palestine - both gaza and the west bank, through its use of violence against both, keeping Gaza eternally unstable and desperate, and through land seizures and apartheid in the west bank. The goal perhaps isn't hte eradication of Palestinians as people, but rather the concept of "Palestinian people" or "Palestine" itself. it's an attempt to scrub these notions from history through violence and oppression, and salting the earth to attempt to prevent their regrowth.

[NaturalHigh]

17. Kind of what I thought.

That's not the definition as I understand it.

[sinkingfeeling]

22. I think 800 people dead in a couple of weeks is genocide. Israel is another 'God-fearing'

terrorist country.

[hack89]

23. What about 2977 dead in a matter of hours? Is that genocide? nt

[Niceguy1]

47. poster

Probably thinks we deserved it.

[hack89]

83. Then genocide is a daily occcurence all over the world

800 dead is a bad couple of days in Africa, Syria or Iraq.

[Puzzledtraveller]

82. ^^this^^

[aikoaiko]

2. If intent and not success is what matters...

... Is Hamas committing genocide when it indiscriminately fires rockets in Israel?

[eridani]

3. 2000 rockets and one casualty? They shoudl worry if Hamas ever gets an air force n/t

[aikoaiko]

5. Hey I'm just working with your definition of genocide. Was that a yes or no?

[onenote]

7. sounded like a yes.

[Rhinodawg]

9. Let me help....... YES.

Total nonsense .

[hack89]

8. I thought success was irrelevant? nt

[Rhinodawg]

4. Genocide, huh ?

Actually Hamas has declared genocide against Israeli and for that matter Jews.

Please delete this garbage.

[840high]

80. ...^ that

[leftynyc]

6. Genocide?

Considering the ever rising population in Gaza, how is it you define genocide? Also, if intention is the measure, hamas has been committing genocide against Israel for decades.

[Rhinodawg]

11. +1,000,000

[Archae]

12. Donchu know?

"Oh that's different!"

And "Hamas can do no wrong!"

[Rhinodawg]

16. Hamas are innocent people , of course.

Really misunderstood.

[obama2terms]

26. That's what I try to tell people

When talking about the conflict nothing will change until Hamas is gone weather Israel is in the picture or not. Palestinians are people, Hamas are terrorists. They do nothing for their own people, they will never do anything to help their people because again they are not normal people they're terrorists! Not a very difficult concept, as you can see. Besides if this qualifies as genocide, then so does 9/11. These are brutal murders of innocent people, don't get me wrong, but this in NO way is genocide.

[treestar]

90. No.

But Israel is not innocent either. And you're conflating Hamas with the Palestinians and in essence adjudging them deserving of death because Hamas purports to be defending them.

[B Calm]

18. If Russia is to blame for the shooting down flight MH 17, then we are to blame for Israel

slaughter of innocents in Gaza.

[HooptieWagon]

25. Good point.

You and a few others get it.

[B Calm]

29. I wanted to make an OP on this point, but

my wife and I are headed out to go shopping and I didn't want to be accused of hit and run.

[tritsofme]

37. And Hamas is completely innocent and

free of any culpability? Just a poor misunderstood bunch of guys?

[eridani]

86. Hamas is a creation of israel, in the same sense that Al Qaeda was a creation of the US n/t

[tritsofme]

88. So Israel and America have gotten what they deserve from terrorists?

Hamas and Al Qaeda free of any culpability.

Well at least that puts a marker on where you stand. Thanks.

[eridani]

93. Israelf and America should have learned by now not to use fundies against secular nationalists

Fundies will always be assholes, regardless of particular religious affiliation.

[Rhinodawg]

87. Someone said it best...

The Hamas Appreciation Society is in full bloom.

Of course no one supports Hamas but no one dares says anything negative about them.

[broiles]

38. I've been asking myself this. The answer is obviously yes.

[magical thyme]

40. Agreed. nt

[Thespian2]

19. Note on Genocide

Dictionary definition: the deliberate killing of a large group of people, esp. those of a particular ethnic group or nation. 9/11 was the indiscriminate murder of whoever was in the Towers. The Israelis have been killing Palestinians, an ethnic group that is hated by the Israelis. Numbers don't matter; intention does.

[obama2terms]

31. You do know that not all Israelis hate Palestinians or Muslims in general and vice versa right?

We have a couple at my Synogogue the husband is from Israel the wife is from Palestine and they moved to the U.S. because, for one they were sick of the fighting and didn't want their children exposed to it as they grow up. And they were sick of people thinking their relationship was strange, because it is uncommon but not totally impossible. It's these governments dividing people not the people themselves. I have always loved Muslim people, and no horrible conflict can change that. Our cultures are similar in many ways, and the Muslim people I have met understand that. I was the only Jewish kid (besides my brother) in middle school, and a Muslim family from Yemen moved here. They had twins ( a boy and girl) and we clicked instantly. They understood fasting, not eating leavened bread during Passover, and other things that just seemed strange to my Christian friends. And I would be the only one not trying to tempt them with food or something to drink throughout Ramadan. Even now after all these years we still take time to skype or talk on the phone with each other. I have to say they are the only people I still talk to that I went to middle school with!

I wish leaders of both sides could sit down and have a civil discussion as we are now. But i'm not holding my breath sadly....

[NaturalHigh]

20. The Hamas charter states that...

"our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious." Notice they don't even use code words like Israel or Zionists.

That sounds like they might be the ones with genocidal intentions.

[Rhinodawg]

69. They want Jews dead.

No reason to beat around the bush.

[treestar]

89. Both sides are guilty

There's not much convincing argument that one side or the other is right at this point.

[dembotoz]

21. you see it is only genocide when we do not like the folks doing the killing

[Mnemosyne]

84. Sadly, too true. nt

[L0oniX]

27. Are the citizens of Gaza allowed to leave the country?

I would leave if I were subjected to what they have to live with ...but then I am spoiled by the USA.

[HooptieWagon]

32. No. They are walled in.

They are effectively imprisoned, about 2 million Palestinians in an area the size of Detroit. Israeli gunboats patrol offshore. There is no place to evacuate to. Very few goods are allowed to be imported.

[leftynyc]

54. Egypt could open their border any time they like

Wonder why they haven't.

[Codeine]

59. Hush, you. We're not allowed to talk

about the fact that all of Palestine's Arab neighbors are reluctant to allow the Palestinians into their countries.

[leftynyc]

60. Ooops, I forgot

Trying to bring FACTS into this discussion is a no-no.

[Rhinodawg]

70. Reluctant ?

Egypt won't let even medical patients in.

Funny how quiet the Arab league is.

[stranger81]

63. Quick, look over there!

Egypt could open the border. Of course, that fact completely misses the point that it is Israel that has a special obligation to the Palestinians, as Israel is the occupying force there -- not Egypt.

But do go on, explain why other countries should assume Israel's obligations as an occupying power. . . .

[leftynyc]

65. Don't get huffy with me

just because you want to focus on only one part of the history and you obviously find inconvenient facts icky. Did I say something untrue? No, I did not. That you don't want to discuss that FACT is entirely your problem.

[stranger81]

75. Yes, you stated a fact.

A fact that has no relevance to whether Israel, the occupying power here, has an obligation to open borders itself. A fact intended solely to distract from Israel's own obligations and to cast blame on other parties that are not stealing and occupying land that belongs to others.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

77. Don't they have a treaty with Israel?

I thought there was some accord or other with Israel about keeping the border closed.

[enid602]

79. Bush

Now,to ne fair, bibi does lift the embargo from time to rime. As babs bush might say, these people have it pretty good here.

[Pisces]

28. Maybe genocide is too heavy-handed a word for some, how about murder. They have killed 800

civillians, many of them children. They attacked a hospital and a shelter where they knew civilians were being treated and
housed. That's outright murder. I hope that accurate word sits better with people.

[calilama]

30. Genocide my ass

its not that hard to be progressive and support Israel....if you can read the Hamas Charter and take them at their word then they are intent on killing every Jew..not just Israeli Jews...if you ignore that and determine that the regrettable death of civilians purposefully put in harms way by a chickenshit "military" who lob missiles at civilian populations and hide their ordinance among their own citizens then you either dont understand what genocide is or just have a problem with Israel or maybe even Jews

I lost 38 members of my family in the Holocaust...that was genocide...this is a 60 year war prolonged by right wing nationalists on BOTH sides that needs a political solution..two states

if Israel was intent on killing palestinian citizens there would not be a single living soul in Gaza..and if you believe in genocide as a political or military weapon you dont give a shit about world opinion...so whats stopping Israel from killing everyone?...it cant and wont happen..every man and woman in the IDF is a direct or barely indirect descendant of a Holocaust survivor....

whats happening in Gaza is not genocide

[HooptieWagon]

33. Did the dead children sign the Hamas Charter?

[treestar]

91. Underlying these sneering statments they make about

Hamas, is the straw man that no one defends them and the implication the kids deserve to die as they are future members of Hamas. That's genocidal thinking - the younger generation is going to grow up and so they are just as justified in eliminating them.

[stupidicus]

34. http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/07/25/israel-is-trying-to-make-genocide-sexy/

eom

[Dreamer Tatum]

36. Genocide is measured by intent? Then Hamas is genocidal by way of CHARTER.

So STFU.

[truebluegreen]

39. Subtext: Hamas is so of course Israel isn't.

Got it.

[Dreamer Tatum]

42. Even if that's true, which is isn't,

it seems like the Hamas Appreciation Society is only butthurt because Israel
is actually good at it. Whereas like with all things, Hamas is an utter failure.

Seriously - the mantra of the Society for the Advancement of Hamas seems to be
"Why does Israel care about a few rockets when they're so good at shooting them
down?"

[truebluegreen]

44. Don't give a flying fock about Hamas.

Do care about what Israel has become and what that means for the future of not only Israel and the Palestinians but of the region.

[Dreamer Tatum]

45. If you care about the region, you should care about Hamas stated intent.

And their tactics as well, which is to make the Palestinians who "elected" them hostages.

[truebluegreen]

46. Yes, yes, Hamas is totally to blame for these troubles.

Got your message already, thanks.

[Dreamer Tatum]

53. Glad you finally agree. nt

[Nuclear Unicorn]

49. "Don't give a flying fock about Hamas."

And we believe you.

[EX500rider]

67. yes it's tantamount to your neighbor firing his gun repeatedly at you..

....and people saying "Why'd you shoot back, he was missing you, right?"

[Dreamer Tatum]

68. "But it's not FAIR. You're a BETTER SHOT." nt

[HooptieWagon]

51. Did the dead children sign the Hamas Charter?

[Dreamer Tatum]

52. I believe Palestinians are live-in hostages of Hamas. nt

[HooptieWagon]

57. Isn't SOP police policy to spare hostages lives?

I believe it is.
In the case of the UN run school, they weren't hostages. They were refugees, under UN care. UN provided IDF with accurate GPS coordinates of the school, and informed them there were only civilian refugees there. Hours later, the IDF shelled the school with heavy artillery fire. This isn't "accidently" killing hostages. This was deliberate targeting of civilians by Israel.

[magical thyme]

41. Genocide is not measured by intent. It is measured by result.

gen·o·cide


/ˈjenəˌsīd/
noun
noun: genocide; plural noun: genocides

the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular ethnic group or nation.

synonyms: mass murder, mass homicide, massacre;

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=genocide

[TheKentuckian]

48. Acquire a dictionary and read some history

[JoeyT]

50. If what happened in the US to

Native Americans was genocide, what's happening in Palestine is genocide. If it wasn't, I reckon we better get our shit together, since we apparently weren't on the receiving end of one after all.

If that being said out loud makes progressive supporters of Israel uncomfortable, then tough shit. Stop supporting genocide is all I can say.

[calilama]

66. Native Americans are just like the Palestinians...what bullshit

only uncomfortable because you dont have a clue what genocide is....we (and the rest of the world)never offered Native Americans a two state autonomous solution....white europeans never set foot on Native American land until they colonized the continent and drove Native Americans from their true ancestral lands...there has been an Israel and Jews in Israel for as long as there has been a Palestine and Palestinians on that miserable patch of desert...those are the facts..eviscerated Jews released from Auschwitz, Treblinka and Dachau didn't just throw a dart at a map and launch a naval and aerial assault on unsuspecting Palestinians in a land foreign to Jewish history and culture...it was quite the opposite..the UN partitioned the ancestral home of both peoples into two states and the rest of the Arab world promptly launched an attack to finish what Hitler started the moment Truman recognized Israel

there are thousands of years of history between these two peoples on that land...the Bible isnt worth much to me save as an historical document and its pretty good evidence that a community of Jews inhabited those lands with their Arab brethren from the start

so pick a better example than Native Americans to peddle your bullshit about Jews as genocidal maniacs

[JoeyT]

71. Oh, so they're not being herded into

increasingly smaller patches of land, while the people doing the herding scream about how the savages are daring to resist as they slaughter them. My bad.

[treestar]

73. You're actually blaming the Arabs

as continuing what Hitler started? That's a bit much. It was their land that was being taken without their permission. That's not nearly the same thing.

Frankly I think a better deal should have been made back then. The world decides to create Israel and force it on the people already living there. It was stupid to think they would not push back.

[deathrind]

58. I see all of these posts about this and none

Of them actually address the real issue here which is the misguided belief that one side was given all the land and has been pushing the other side off it for decades.

The right to defend cuts both ways.

[NCTraveler]

61. "Genocide is never measured by its success rate but by intention."

Correct you are. That is why no rational person can for a second think that Israel is taking part in genocide. Such a foolish thought not based in reality.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

62. "The death of one man is a tragedy. The death of millions is a statistic." - Joseph Stalin

But, I prefer this way of looking at killing.

No Man Is An Island

No man is an island,
Entire of itself,
Every man is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.
As well as if a promontory were.
As well as if a manor of thy friend's
Or of thine own were:
Any man's death diminishes me,
Because I am involved in mankind,
And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls;
It tolls for thee.

John Donne

[2banon]

74. eridani , notice how the atrocities has been completely derailed with strawman BS by IDF defenders?

Who knew there'd be an invasion of blood thirsty NEO-CONs here on DU?

[BlindTiresias]

76. Hey man

Republicans are no good in the USA, but if they are even more extreme and called "Likud" I guess that makes it all A-OK.

[840high]

81. Nonsense.

[BlueCheese]

85. With respect, I think this cheapens the word genocide.

If you want to argue, as your bolded statement does, that intent is the only important thing, then I would argue that Hamas is closer to wanting genocide than Israel. After all, it is their stated goal to destroy Israel and murder the Jews. Now, Hamas is not very successful in their efforts, which is why most people don't think they're committing genocide, even if they want to.

If you want to argue, as many people do, that it's about results, then I think neither side is really committing genocide. It's true that many more Palestinians than Israelis have been killed so far. But while all the deaths are tragic, anything numbering in the hundreds out of millions of people doesn't deserve the name genocide.

War is terrible enough, and the people of the Middle East has suffered enough to last for eternity. But to call this conflict a genocide really trivializes the term.

[treestar]

92. True, it's really a struggle for the land, with the Palestinians on the losing side

They don't have the same wherewithal to defend themselves and they've been losing this battle for going on 70 years.

Hamas is really not in a position to take over all of the land and kill all the people there - whether they intend to or not. Israel, however, will end up with all the land in the area. It will be in how they handle the remaining Palestinians whether they show their humanity or not.