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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsUS Has Not Been Able To Show Russian Government Was Involved In Downing Of Airliner
Ken Dilanian / The Associated Press
July 26, 2014 09:18 AM
ASPEN, Colo. - A series of unanswered questions about the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 shows the limits of U.S. intelligence gathering even when it is intensely focused, as it has been in Ukraine since Russia seized Crimea in March.
Citing satellite imagery, intercepted conversations and social media postings, U.S. intelligence officials have been able to present what they call a solid circumstantial case that the plane was brought down by a Russian-made SA-11 surface-to-air missile fired by Russian-backed separatists in Eastern Ukraine.
But they have not offered proof of what they say is their strong belief that the separatists obtained the sophisticated missile system from the Russian government. And they say they have not determined what, if any, involvement Russian operatives may have had in directing or encouraging the attack, which they believe was a mistaken attempt to hit a Ukrainian military aircraft
Moscow angrily denies any involvement in the attack; on Saturday the Russian Foreign Ministry accused the U.S. of waging "an unrelenting campaign of slander against Russia, ever more relying on open lies."
U.S. officials said they still don't know who fired the missile or whether Russian military officers were present when it happened. Determining that will take time, they said, if it's possible at all. As one put it, "this isn't '24,'" referring to the TV series that often exaggerates the speed and capabilities of the American spying machine.
- See more at: http://www.timescolonist.com/sports/us-has-not-been-able-to-show-russian-government-was-involved-in-downing-of-airliner-1.1262527#sthash.5kf6NoA5.dpuf
HERVEPA
(6,107 posts)Cal Carpenter
(4,959 posts)What the fuck. The accusations and hyperbole and words being put into people's mouths is making DU un-fucking-readable.
Cooley Hurd
(26,877 posts)Cooley Hurd
(26,877 posts)Jury system failed this time.
"You Putinistas" is a clear PA. From an old Mod...
HERVEPA
(6,107 posts)Cooley Hurd
(26,877 posts)Skippy, you've been here long enough to know the ropes. What you posted was a clear PA. The jury failed and the jury was alerted to the Admins. Perhaps you need to review the TOS?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=termsofservice
HERVEPA
(6,107 posts)The admins leave this stuff to the juriy, in case you hadn't noticed.
The terms of service are fast and loose there days, as I've noticed when I've alerted.
Just block me and no worries, Skipster.
And calling someone Putinista who denies what we all know, that Russia was responsible, is a statement of fact.
If you're not clear about this, check your uncertainty principle, Heisenberg.
Cooley Hurd
(26,877 posts)...and that one (which was a close one) was. I've never blocked a single DUer, ever. I'm hardly a hothouse flower.
The OP posted an AP article without comment, yet you felt the need to call them a name, which is a very clear violation of DU's TOS. Check YOUR uncertainty, Skippy. (and thank you for recognizing my avatar. Walter White would approve, and snicker at you).
On edit: And, before you accuse me hypocrisy, "Skippy" is a term or endearment I use with those I'm in disagreement with. Skippy was the name of my friend's dog, whom we were all very fond of. I use it instead of using more harsh terms like "dickhead" or "fuckface", neither term I consider civilized for this particular forum. I may disagree with you, but would never call you dickhead or fuckface, since you are a fellow DUer of long standing.
OilemFirchen
(7,143 posts)That's not close.
From an old Demigod.
Cooley Hurd
(26,877 posts)You post 3x a year?
OilemFirchen
(7,143 posts)But busy, nonetheless.
Cooley Hurd
(26,877 posts)...at the nadir.
Igel
(35,300 posts)Even if they captured the offending Buk system and found that as of 5/15/14 it had been stationed in Voronezh and had been inspected on that date by I.I. Ivanov, it wouldn't entail that the Russian government itself had ordered that the thing be transported down to Kammeny-Shakhtinsk and transferred into the rebels' custody in the Donbas.
"We didn't know it was missing and we'll conduct an investigation to find out how it got there."
"How could we know that that missile system wasn't supposed to be on the road. So many columns of armored vehicles and armaments are being shuffled around that it's hard to know if one is illicit."
"Really? It was supposed to be in Voronezh? Welll, we decommissioned one there and they took the wrong one. Some corrupt quartermaster must have sold it."
"That was decommissioned and sold to the All-Powerful Cossack Army, which is a licensed paramilitary group in the S. of Russia. We weren't supposed to check up on them again for another 4 months, and we'll be sure to punish the appropriate person."
Of course each alibi weakens Putin's position, but they're convenient lies that we can't disprove and no Russian seriously would believe. Lying to the West is an okay thing.
The problem is letting Russia define the standards of proof and accepting inconsistencies and subterfuge. Part is that many Americans want to believe Russia more than they believe their own government, some because they've been told their own government lies but have to see clear proof that Putin's government lies, some because it's convenient--they don't like the US being able to throw its weight around and would like "counterbalance." (That the consequences of counterbalance is something they'd intensely dislike is masked by their insistence on how the counterbalance would actually work in practice--perfectly balanced, everybody moral, and peace will reign as the lamb lies down with the lion, watching the newly hired poor beat swords and tanks into plowshares and iPhones.)
It's not necessary to produce a document in which Putin grants official permission for the Buk system to be transferred from a specific place with specific operators, named in the document, for the purpose of shooting down MH17. Putin's underlings and Putin himself have created the atmosphere and allowed the corruption that feeds having "volunteers" head out to "kill fascists" and make the Slavosphere safe for "real Slavs" in the Russian world, with top political parties pledging support to the rebels, official groups supporting them, and a system of unofficial warfare weakening the country.
For instance, Sberbank (and others) are claiming to have capitalization problems. Their response? Move capital from the Ukraine daughter banks to the Russian branch. That leaves the Ukraine branches vastly undercapitalized. In effect, Ukrainian savings have been moved into rubles in Russia, buying a lot of rubles and raising the exchange rate while making a bank failure in Ukraine and stripping Ukraine of resources a viable, feasible, threat. One that Russia did once before, back in the early '90s.
There are trade issues as well. All of which, combined with the rhetoric, has kept the insurrection going for months, allowed the rebels to garner money and weapons, and allowed them to shoot down MH17 instead of having their New Russia project fold in June.
At last word the Ukr forces are inside the Donetsk city limits and fighting, and conducting assaults on Pervomaisk/Stakhanov/Alchevsk, while continuing to press Luhansk and Horlivka. With fighting in Debal'tsevo, that's pretty much the entirety of the northern flank. If Horlivka falls then Donets'k gets a double-dose. Strelkov has continued to throw men and arms into the struggle on the southern flank and finally claimed to have broken through to the Russian border south of Savur-Mohyla, which, if true, will allow the DPR forces to be resupplies with heavy munitions and arms and not require the air drop of supplies from a Russian transport plane that was witnessed yesterday in Sverdlovs'k. On the other hand, he made a similar claim a couple of days ago concerning Kozhevnya and some other little berg, a cause for extreme celebration--before announcing a day later that "superior forces" had pushed his guys out when it became clear that they couldn't be in those bergs. The Ukr army spokesman denied either event had happened.
Another update on the situation is that the main transit power station for connecting the Luhansk power grid to the rest of the Donbas' and Ukrainian power grid was hit by rebel fire (being on the Ukr army side of the lines). The Schastya plant is trying to make up the difference, but can't--and that's with numerous power lines down from last night's fighting.
Bad Thoughts
(2,522 posts)Talk about going to the story.
GeorgeGist
(25,320 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)All of it.
Xolodno
(6,390 posts)...and quite often you seem such a huge CIA apologist that I don't bother responding....
But no. Truman had a sign on his desk "The Buck stops here." In this case, the buck stops with Putin, he listened to his advisers and allowed those advanced weapons into the hands that were not qualified. Putin should have at the very least implied that the airspace over Ukraine was not safe....he didn't. Had he done so...or even flat out stated that "advanced SAM" arms near Ukraine went "missing"...he could back away from this. Nope...just like Reagan couldn't dodge the downing of a Iranian commercial passenger jet...neither can he.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)OilemFirchen
(7,143 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Oh, shit .
OilemFirchen
(7,143 posts)TwilightGardener
(46,416 posts)So even in the most indirect way, Russia is at fault. But of course, they gave the equivalent of a loaded gun to toddlers--drunks with missile launchers. Way to go, Vlad! Hope you got the results you were after.
gerogie2
(450 posts)at Home Depot in Kiev.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)IDemo
(16,926 posts)philip.chinery
(18 posts)They couldn't get them at a store in Kiev, but they certainly could have gotten them from the government there.