What if the wimpy, frightened, yet intrigued Shades of Grey character was a male college student?

[pnwmom]

Last edited Mon Jul 28, 2014, 01:21 AM - Edit history (2)

And the Dom was an older, rich female?

Would this book have sold 100 million copies worldwide? Or would it have been the laughingstock this book deserves to be?

And isn't this what bothers many of us? That the popularity of the series demonstrates and reinforces the unequal positions of men and women in society?

[historylovr]

1. Exactly what I've been wondering.

And I'm leaning toward total flop. No pun intended.

[moriah]

2. I told myself I'd shut up about this.... but ... really, what if?

It's hard for me to verbalize exactly why this kind of thinking offends me. Perhaps if I were a male submissive I could verbalize it more clearly, but the way you write this makes it sound like a man should be ashamed if he leans that way in the bedroom.

I mean, why would it make it more likely for the book to be seen as trash if the sexes were reversed? I don't get it.

Edit to add: Do not underestimate the buying power of men when it comes to porn. It's quite possible that the book and or movie would have had much higher sales, albeit probably in very different sections of the bookstore, had it been marketed toward men.

[pnwmom]

5. You really think this book would be a big seller with the role reversal?

That women, in large numbers, would like to buy a book featuring a female Dom who treated the young man as Christian treats Anastasia?

Why would it be unlikely? Look around in our culture. Who commits the large majority of crimes of violence and rape? Not women. Who are most likely to be seriously physically assaulted by members of the opposite sex? Not men.

[moriah]

13. So the interest in BDSM that manifests by people wanting to read a book...

.... is such a manifestation of rape culture that it could not be a best seller if the roles were reversed? In your opinion?

If you didn't know, there are many submissive men out there, and dominant women. There are also people who practice BDSM with same-sex partners. As a matter of fact, when you look for online erotica, you're far more likely to find material written for submissive men than you are submissive women, because men consume more porn.

Honestly, the wide availability of free porn depicting female domination is the only reason why it might not *sell*... but viewership certainly could be high.

[eridani]

42. Regardless of gender or orientation, subs outnumber doms by a huge margin

I think that's for the same reason that there are usually a lot more readers than writers, and more people in the audience than on stage.

[historylovr]

6. The way I read it was that a) 50 Shades is horribly written, ie., trash,

a questionable hit at best, and b) if a young college guy was the sub, would this novel have been publicized and talked about in the mainstream media the way it has been? But that may be because I'd already been thinking along those lines. And no, I don't think male subs should be ashamed, or female subs, or whoever. I also don't think this novel would have been promoted the way it has been if the dynamics were reversed. There would have been some word of mouth, but I doubt it would have gotten air time outside of a niche market.

[BainsBane]

7. There wouldn't be a movie

Of that we can be fairly certain.

[historylovr]

8. Yep.

There is that.

[betsuni]

19. Easy to put a woman

in a drab outfit with a bad hairstyle and later slap on the makeup and fix everything and like magic, she's pretty! In the trailer it looks like they copied the interview scene in "The Devil Wore Prada." I guess that's harder to pull off for boys. There doesn't seem to be one original idea in this whole Shades business.

[dsc]

53. No it isn't

just watch any of the myriad of movies from the 80's where a guy starts off as a geeky character and becomes a stud by the end of the film.

[pnwmom]

9. A niche market. Exactly. Not 47 million in the US alone.

[bluestateguy]

3. I know what I want to say

But it will make too many people angry, so I'll keep it private for now.

[Suburban Warrior]

4. Please Proceed Governor...

[Scootaloo]

10. I doubt it would have been written

If we were to simply gender-swap, then Ana (...Andy?) is a hapless "emasculated sub-beta" while christian (...Christina, I guess) becomes a shallow, bitchy, emotionally vacant "hose-beast."

Mind, all we'd be doing is changing the genders, not their actions or personalities in any way.

It's not a bad exercise for examining both society's toxic gender expectations, but also all the shit that is deeply wrong with the books.

[betsuni]

11. Not conventional enough to be popular

If 50 Shades is called "mommy porn" then if the student was a 22-year-old guy it would be "cougar porn."

[MADem]

12. I don't think women would have bought the book.

The whole idea of those sorts of trashy novels is for the readers (and the target audience is women) to put themselves in the character of the heroine, with all of her angst and tribulations.

The heroine is supposedly young and beautiful. I just can't see the target purchasers (those who like "romance" or "erotic" reading material) buying this novel and putting themselves in the place of some young man getting into a sketchy sexual situation. They certainly wouldn't want to put themselves in the place of the older female--the whole idea is to escape to a time when one was (virtually) at the height of their attractiveness.

I think, seriously, if the book had been written as you suggest, it might have sunk like a stone in terms of sales, but it probably would be regarded as more original and creative than the current iteration.

[joshcryer]

26. It's very common in lesbian themed works.

ie, a young woman is trained by an older woman.

Lesbian BDSM in particular.

The problem with the OP's theme is that women aren't going to see anything alluring about a young college student basically having his wet dream fulfilled.

[MADem]

30. Well -- the heroic main character in that flip-script scenario is the young college lad.

I don't know how much a lesbian would enjoy that theoretical work. Then again, it's not the sort of subject that ordinarily comes up with any lesbians I know!


My sense is that the reader wants to put themselves in the "role" of the heroic/main character in these stories. The older person isn't the hero--the younger one is. The older person advances the story line and serves as an object for the focus of the younger person, but the older person is only of interest because of his (or in the imaginary book, her) behavior towards the hero in the piece.

[joshcryer]

31. Yeah, that's true.

However it can be reversed where the older, waif lady gets to have the young construction worker type, so it's not necessarily an age thing, imo.

[LittleBlue]

14. No. Anastasia is an everygirl by necessity

She has to be, otherwise the escapist fantasy is ruined. Women have to be able to project themselves onto her. So she must be a woman that people, especially men and rival women, are indifferent toward.

Christian Grey can't be a penniless, powerless college boy. Women don't fantasize about that. They want the multibillionaire alpha male who is obsessed with the everygirl. Obsession is the opposite of indifference, and I suppose the obsession of the most desirable male (looks+success) is the ultimate prize.

Women who read the book wouldn't relate to the powerful woman, and wouldn't desire the wimpy man.

[pnwmom]

15. And would millions of men want to imagine themselves as the young, fearful man?

I don't think so.

[LittleBlue]

17. Yeah, I doubt it

Although some men have boyhood desires about their teachers and live them out later on in life. Usually by having their partner dress up as a teacher.

The teacher in the teacher fantasy isn't Christian Grey, but she represents a realistic female figure of authority. However, they wouldn't buy a book, they'd just watch porno or act it out IRL.

[BainsBane]

22. She most certainly is not "everygirl"

Nor does the book appeal to every woman.

[The Straight Story]

16. Not sure as many women would have bought it

Have to ask them and take up their personal preferences with them.

[pnwmom]

18. How many women kill men compared to men who kill women? The numbers aren't even close.

How many women violently attack men? Same thing.

So why would you think significant numbers of women would purchase this book if the roles were reversed?

[The Straight Story]

21. I don't think as many would

But they did when the roles were set up as they were.

Many women seem to enjoy such fantasies - and many men like the same thing in reverse (hence the prevalence of some many dominatrixes).

People like letting go, while still having some control. You often see powerful men liking submissive roles. On the flip side, you see women, who for whatever reason, like the fantasy (example, they don't have a great sex life, don't want to cheat, and fantasize about being a role where they have both - sexual fantasy that is somewhat forced and they don't have guilt).

Women who like more sub roles (which is really a dom role, subs control things) will relate more to such stories. They would relate less if roles were reversed.

[pnwmom]

23. What do you mean, "they did when the roles were set up as they were"?

When was that?

There's no way to imagine that this book, with the roles reversed, would have sold 47 million US copies. Or anything close. And that's because the genders still aren't even close to being equal in society.

[The Straight Story]

29. I mean

The roles as they set up in the book appealed to a lot of women.

If you think it is just because of societal roles I don't know what to tell you - just tell those women they are wrong, shame on them for desiring what they do, and blame everyone else for them wanting to role play that way.

Men and women often find themselves in various roles, many times a 'switch' where sometimes they want to be a sub, sometimes a dom. There is a lot of escapism in fantasies, and I don't see the need to shame women because of their desires or their choices or try to tell them they are just victims of the patriarchy and have no idea what they want.

Other people seem fine with trying to educate them and make them ashamed of what they desire.

[pnwmom]

32. I'm not suggesting we shame women. I'm suggesting we keep working

to improve society so women are less likely to have fantasies involving powerful but abusive men.

[The Straight Story]

35. So what you are saying are that these women are messed up

and that because of society that is the only reason they have these fantasies. That the they don't really want them but because of how things are they, and not people like you who know better, have been tricked/forced into wanting something they should not.

[pnwmom]

38. I think a lot of people bought the book out of simple curiosity, not because they're messed up.

I've heard from women who say they couldn't get through the book, and I'm betting there are a lot like that.

But I think the book promotes a very dangerous idea, that too many women, sadly, have: that the right woman can reform an abusive man, who will then be her perfect partner. No one is the perfect partner -- but especially not abusive people. No one should get involved with an abusive person thinking that person can be reformed. Women who think that can end up dead.

[joeglow3]

20. The question is why women eat this shit up

Fifty shades of grey is nothing new. My mother in law reads "romance novels" and after this book came out, I flipped through a number of them. This shitty storey line is common in all of these books. Why this turd became the one to blow up is beyond me. However, I am flabbergasted as to why this theme is so damn popular and successful.

[pnwmom]

24. Some women. Yes, that is a question. n/t

[joshcryer]

28. Of the 100 million copies most are women.

You're the one who seems to have a problem about its popularity.

[pnwmom]

34. Right. And about half of those sold in the US. And the fact that 47 million copies

would never have been sold in this country with the roles reversed tells us a lot about the relative positions of men and women in society.

[joshcryer]

37. I think both men and women idealize a perfect type.

In their consumption of erotic materials. I think that eventually there will be a convergence, but that's a generation or two away.

[Quantess]

25. Trash Thread

I don't give a shit.

[joshcryer]

27. Femdom and cuckolding erotica exists.

It's just not as popular. Maybe one day it'll be as popular as male domination stuff.

As long as the consumer market eats it up it'll exist.

[pnwmom]

33. That's my point. It's MUCH less popular. And I think that is related to the

relative positions of men and women in society -- and explains why women might want to fantasize a relationship with a rich, powerful man -- even if he was abusive.

[joshcryer]

36. That's very likely.

The problem isn't the work, however, it's the consumers who desire that kind of writing. It is very very common in Harlequin stuff. A strong male role and a diminutive female role who desires that strong, interesting, fascinating character.

Part of me thinks it's actually due to men being drab and uninteresting in real life.

[davidn3600]

39. You touched on something many here don't want to talk about

It's rooted in gender roles.

Many women have this fantasy that the female character in this book experiences. The problem is this fantasy, most of the time, flies in the face of feminism. It goes completely against everything feminism is trying to accomplish.

Unfortunately though, most feminists here would rather focus their attacks against this story on the sexual content being displayed on the screen instead of the unequal power structures of society that supports the fantasy that even led to the creation of the story to begin with.

[pnwmom]

40. It not only flies in the face of feminism, but it contributes to a culture

that encourages vulnerable women to think they can "reform" abusive men, and turn these men into protectors.

If every word of dialogue and action was retained, but the male character turned into an ordinary looking supermarket clerk or a gas station attendant, the sales would have been practically zero. It's the wealth and power that are the real lure. Some women are like Anastasia -- they would do anything for that, and they don't see a way to do it on their own.

[Warren DeMontague]

41. Anne Rice wrote a book called "Exit to Eden" in 1985 with dominant female/sub male main characters.

Last edited Mon Jul 28, 2014, 06:35 AM - Edit history (1)

I don't know if the book sold as well as '50 shades' but it obviously did well enough to get Hollywood to make an exceedingly bad film out of it in 1994.

Maybe you don't remember Dana Delaney in dominatrix garb, but I do.

[msanthrope]

46. Oh my god....just when I had suppressed the images of Dan Aykroyd....

you bring them back. Thanks the fuck alot!!

[Warren DeMontague]

47. Not to mention Rosie O'Donnell.

Yeah, that movie was.... something to behold. I can't imagine Anne Rice appreciated what they did to her book.

[waddirum]

52. the movie may be crap...

... but that photo is pretty hot.

[Kurska]

44. What if they were both dudes

[steve2470]

45. What if the guy was plain-looking, low income and middle aged ?

Somehow I think book sales would suffer a tad.

[Warren DeMontague]

48. Or, what if he was one of those sports mascots- like, he wore a giant banana suit to work?

And what if she had a speech condition that made her only able to swear in Esperanto- backwards?

Dear God, what sorts of ingrained power structures, cultural heteronormative narratives would be thusly enabled and reenforced, then?

The mind boggles.

[steve2470]

49. all kinds of permutations to have fun with here :)

Maybe the author will try those...throw shit against the wall and see what sticks ? It could be an interesting experiment

[Bluenorthwest]

50. More Tales of Straight Culture.

You guys crack me up.

[merrily]

51. Didn't read the book or see the movie.

However, I do know that you are not the first or only female to object to the book because of what it says about the female gender. And about sexual acts that might not all be 100% consensual.

Again, I speak only what I personally have heard people say. Apart from that, I have no first-hand knowledge.

I hope that is adequate disclosure and disclaimer, even for a message board. (Sometimes seems as though nothing ever is.)