I am a BDSMer. I have run workshops on how to practice it safely. I've been doing it for 20 years.

[sibelian]

I would suggest to anyone interested in the practice to research it outwith the field of fiction and entirely outwith the field of political message boards. The most appropriate source of information on the subject is people who practice BDSM, not people who have no idea what it is beyond what it looks like and are liable to reach for whatever explanation of it seems to justify their emotional reaction to it.

Do NOT, repeat NOT absorb information about BDSM from non-practitioners. NEVER absorb unprocessed information about it from fantasists or phobics.

This has been a public service announcement.

[darkangel218]

1. Thank you, Sibelian.

[KittyWampus]

68. Thank You for what? Telling us to only get info from one source with a biased view?

LOL!

[mythology]

142. If I'm going to get "biased" information

I'd prefer it be from people who actually have experience with what they are talking about. I wouldn't take athletic coaching from people who've never seen the sport.

[hrmjustin]

2. I have been to a few workshops to see what it is about.

Most of the people I know who do it are average people who like a little spice in the bedroom. The couples I met there seemed very loving and well adjusted.

[whathehell]

24. No offense, but,

There's all kinds of "spice" and whole lots of it can be had without

physical or mental pain....Just a thought.

[hrmjustin]

26. For you yes but them it is a part of their life.

I make no judgements.

[whathehell]

31. Yeah, lots of things are "part of" some people's lives

That doesn't mean they're healthy.

I'm afraid I still value scholarship and truth over political correctness.

That being said, God bless you're little non-judgmental heart.

[hrmjustin]

33. Ok.

[Voice for Peace]

51. I am positive that it is therapeutic for many people.

Sexual abuse and physical violence, and the combination,
are so common. They create horrific wounds to the psyche,
especially for a young child.

In order to survive, literally, most abused people learn
to shut down feeling.

Without feeling, there can be no healing of the psyche.

The intensity of much BDSM, including the physical
pain and humiliation, allows participants to access
parts of themselves otherwise inaccessible.

It is a similar phenomenon I believe to cutting and
burning oneself. In many cases, extensive piercings
and tattoos are similar.

When someone can not escape, or process, profound
emotional and mental pain, physical pain can bring
release and relief.

[hrmjustin]

53. I never really could do it because it reminded me too much of an abusive relationship and what came

it.

[Voice for Peace]

61. But it's an interesting phenomenon that abused people often seek out abusive relationships,

at least until they have consciously broken the cycle.

We have an urge toward the familiar (abuse), added to an
urgent need to feel, something, anything, even if it hurts.

For many those walls around the ability to feel have grown
thick, and it takes a great deal to pierce through.

[Prophet 451]

205. As a cutter

You're mostly right. I'm severely mentally ill (severe MDD, GAD, "visions" and voices) and it's like there's a pressure building inside you and sometimes, you cut your body to avoid cutting your wrists. When I start to cut, I start along this emotional arc that allows me to release the pressure. Cutting and stabbing, the blood flows and watching it is somehow meditative and slowly, the pressure lowers, the blood stops pounding in my ears, I stop crying and then, I feel better.

I'm aware this isn't the healthiest way to handle my internal pressure. It's something my shrink and I are working on; one of my many, many issues. But to be honest, it's pretty far down the list.

[darkangel218]

40. Maybe im not understanding correctly

But are you suggesting BDSM is "not healthy"??

[whathehell]

66. You are understanding correctly..

I don't think it's "healthy" in that I believe -- as did the APA until they

decided to go with "political correctness" instead of scholarship -- it springs

from low self-esteem and a damaged ability to experience positive intimacy.


I'm sorry, but the natural human instinct is to avoid pain, not seek it.

[BuddhaGirl]

74. Seriously, you need to get out more

I have been involved in the Scene for many years, and I assure you it is not as you say.

"Low self-esteem"?? Oh my goodness - come to a an event sometime and try that line out!

[whathehell]

80. Seriously, you do too..

maybe to different places.

Being involved in any "scene" does not guarantee objectivity about it,

in fact, it might guarantee just the opposite.

The natural human instinct is to avoid pain, not seek it.

[BuddhaGirl]

85. No, actually some of my closest friends

are long-time BDSM practitioners - and they are the exact opposite of what you claim, that " it springs from low self-esteem and a damaged ability to experience positive intimacy."

Tell me how many people involved in the Scene you have talked with, and then get back to me.

[whathehell]

89. I'm only quoting the shrinks, honey..

You're free to believe whatever you want.

[moriah]

92. And again, I'm sure you support their older, non "politically correct" opinions about homosexuality.

But I suppose you're free to believe whatever you want, too.

[whathehell]

110. And again, you're trying to put words in my mouth,

And again, they're false, but you are free to believe whatever you want, too.

[moriah]

111. You're preaching about what is and what is not "natural" about sex, on a liberal discussion forum.

And justifying it with outdated psychiatric advice. It was a rhetorical point, because I sure as hell hope you don't agree with that, but you're using the same arguments they do.

[whathehell]

129. Not "preaching", just stating facts, and not about sex,

but about the human instinct regarding pain.

Can you deny that avoiding, not seeking, pain is a basic human instinct?

No, you can't.

That is REALLY all I have to say to you.

I don't want to put you on my Ignore list, but this is getting tiresome.

Good bye.

[moriah]

135. Explain tattoos, then. Or are people who like getting them "unnatural", too? n/t

[mythology]

140. No, you're stating an opinion and confusing that for a fact.

If people sought to avoid pain then there would be no marathons or ultramarathons, no gymnastics, no football. Different people enjoy different things. My vacation this year is to fly to the other side of the country and hike 22 miles in a day. Will it be painful? Yes. But will I enjoy it? Yes.

It also doesn't help that you seem to be rather limited in your imagination about what can go into BDSM. Not everybody in the scene is into whips and chains. There are people who focus on protocol and submission rather than pain.

[whathehell]

143. No, I'm stating the "fact" of the APA's diagnosis until recently,

when lots of practitioners petitioned them to drop it, because it was

stigmatizing the lifestyle as pathological. See post #38.

[BuddhaGirl]

150. So the millions of people

who get tattoos "sick"?

Many who get tattoos enjoy the pain, which leads to an endorphin rush. Are they "sick"?

[whathehell]

156. Who the hell cares about tattoos?

This discussion is getting a bit too off-topic for me.

Enjoy your day.

[BuddhaGirl]

160. You can't reply, got it

It's actually not off-topic, and another poster asked you the same question and you refused to reply.

You have been shown that all you have are "opinions" in the face of facts.

You enjoy your day as well

[whathehell]

163. Of course I can reply..

I was just trying to avoid getting anymore panties

in a wad than I have already.

Yes, given our basic instinct to avoid pain, I think getting off on

pain represents a level of pathology, the degree varying with the

practice and the extent of the pain.

Enjoying the pain of tattoos seems a lot less pathological

than say, wanting to be beaten or mentally abused.

That being said, I'm afraid I must address this one particularly

silly statement of yours:

"You have shown that all you have is opinions in the face of

facts"....What "facts"? have you offered, LOL?

Sorry, dear, but there really ARE no hard facts here to be had.

[BuddhaGirl]

166. I see you haven't talked with any BDSM practitioners

The "hard fact" in your posts is that they are merely your opinion.

[whathehell]

185. LOL..You don't know who I've talked to..

As it happens, I know a couple of BDSMers.

One was an casual friend of mine and the other an acquaintance

who tried to "recruit" me into abusing him -- Needless to say,

he failed, as I found the proposition nauseating.

By the way, you need to re-read my post; I never said I had

"hard facts", I said NO ONE did.

Now, forgive me, but this is going nowhere, and I'm getting bored.

so I'll bid you "adieu".

[BuddhaGirl]

195. LOL you were quoting the APA

as "facts" - but I guess you forgot.

Bye!

[whathehell]

198. Wrong again, LOL, The "fact" quoted was of its being their diagnosis!

Bye!

[moriah]

202. You said liking pain wasn't natural, and that your judgement was not one about sex.

Well, many people enjoy the endorphin rush from tattoos.

Are they un-"natural", or "sick", like you label all BDSMers?

[whathehell]

207. So what?

[whathehell]

148. Oh please..

The examples you and & a couple others here give -- running

marathons, giving birth to children -- are poor analogies.

These actions represent people undergoing pain in the service of

another objective. In S&M, the pain itself is the goal.

My "imagination" regarding BDSM is as limitless as my stomach will

allow..As for "submission", uh, no, that would go against everything I

I am as a feminist and self-determinant person.

[moriah]

230. I'm a feminist too. What happens in the bedroom *stays in the bedroom*....

... until people start preaching against it on DU, at least. Hell, many people say I have *him* whipped, which we secretly chuckle about, because it is funny what they don't know... We are egalitarian in the way we handle relationship decisions, so no one is the wiser unless we tell them.

And no, the pain is not the goal. The endorphin rush is far more of the goal. I prefer to accomplish it by being given more orgasms than I think I can stand by a partner who I can trust even if I'm tied down. Some get a better one with pain.

You still haven't extended your judgment of un-"natural" or "sick" to those who enjoy tattoos.

Maybe because you finally realize how stupid it is to judge for other people what is un"natural" and "sick"? Judge for yourself all you want, but don't judge others.

Edit to add: As I tried to give you the out when you first said it, it's fine if BDSM squicks you and it's something you could never participate in. That's perfectly fine, and anyone who tried to force you into something you didn't *want*, 100%, to do, is being abusive. I hope no one has ever tried to get you to do things you don't want to do. But it's *not* fine to judge others as "sick" just because something squicks you. To be honest, I'm terribly squicked by anal sex. I don't get it. I have a hole designed for penetrative activity and don't need to use the alternative. I know some women love it, though. It squicks me, but I'm not about to judge them. Is that too hard of an attitude to have?

[whathehell]

242. You think so?

Frankly, I've never understood those who think their sexual

preferences are completely disconnected from their psyches and

identities. You must realize, for instance, how closely the Dominant male/

Submissive female model reflects the patriarchal oppression of the world.

[moriah]

243. One thing that's hard to understand -- the dominant can't be dominant without the submissive's ....

... consent. In reality, the dominant serves the needs of the submissive far more than the reverse -- as I've said, in my relationship, I come out far higher on orgasm tally than he does, and far more time is focused on my pleasure, since he gets quite a bit of his pleasure out of mine. The vast majority of the time, the dominant is paying attention to the submissive -- and especially if pain play is happening, they damn well better have 100% of their attention on the submissive and their needs. Even during pain play, the Dom must be measured in how they apply it, and have knowledge of the patterns of endorphin response, it's not like they can just let go the same way a submissive can. It's a hard damn job to do right, especially if you add pain play into the mix.

The dom provides a service to the submissive, and how that is reciprocated may vary from roleplaying by using a title in the bedroom (something I don't do, I think I would burst out laughing and that'd be a terrible thing to do to *any* man in the bedroom, no matter what the context) to letting the dom think he's really the boss (which most do, including me) by not drawing attention to the fact that I can say no at any time, and each time I do not is a choice. (Again, it's about trust. After much consideration, I gave him permission to initiate anything he wishes, and that unless I say no or safeword, he can trust that I am consenting. That's NOT a model that I'd recommend anyone start a relationship out with, but we'd been together for over six months before we got to that level of trust with each other -- both that I knew he'd respect my "no", and he knew that I'd actually *say* no if I didn't want to do something instead of freeze up or succumb to pressure. And that last part was a big, big deal for him -- he didn't want to push me into something I didn't want, and needed the security of knowing he could make any suggestion not in my hard limits list, and the worst that would happen would be me saying "No" instead of me doing something just to please him.)

Without the sub, the dom is screwed (metaphorically, of course). In many ways, the sub is the one with all the power.

Doms who mistreat their subs, who take them for granted, who abuse them, will hopefully sooner rather than later find themselves without a sub. That's why I think it is important to have safety seminars like the ones the OP does, and most BDSM 101s go into at least one chapter on differences between consensual, non-abusive submission and hallmarks of abusive relationships. Actual physical violence is a late stage sign in an abusive relationship, there are many early warning signs that a dude has absorbed more of the patriarchy than they should have, that help a person distinguish abuse from BDSM.

Yet suggesting that it's all about male dom/female submissives neglects that there are male submissives, and female dominants, as well as many LGBTQ practitioners that play with a same-sex partner. There are "switches" as well, which I guess you could say I technically am, since I was first introduced to the lifestyle as a top, not a bottom, and can take on that role. I just don't get very much out of it except in narrow contexts. They aren't fighting against the patriarchy any more than I'm supporting it. The same duties and responsibilities for the Dominant partner exist whether that person is male or female, and beyond some novels (the books about the mythical planet "Gor" for example) and people who are a little obsessed by them, no one in BDSM expects a woman to be a sub or a man to be a dominant by default, or have much opinion about which gender should be in each role beyond their own personal gender preferences for sex.

[whathehell]

245. Well, that's no more surprising than the "submissive" can't be submissive

without the dominant...Oppressors can't be "oppressors" without
"oppresses" either...I honestly don't see how that changes anything.

As for the male/dominant female/submissive modeling, yes, I
know there are male submissives, but much fewer. I don't get why
people would want or need a power dynamic in a "love" relationship, since, as I see it, real love, certainly "unconditional" love, requires both
parties to be vulnerable.

Listen, I am (believe it or not) not interested in giving you a hard time,
I just gave my opinion, and that's probably no more likely to change
than yours is, so why don't we just "agree to disagree" and end this
conversation?...I hold no hard feelings toward you, and I hope you
feel the same about me -- It's just a difference of opinion.

[moriah]

246. If it's no longer a difference of opinion as to whether or not I'm "sick"...

.... because of my sexual practices...

Then that's all I hoped to accomplish. Or, if you still think so, don't expect that notion to go unchallenged when it's expressed.

[whathehell]

251. Frankly, I never wanted to hear about your "sexual practices"

or those of anyone else here, for that matter.

The only reason I got on this thread was to answer ONE

person, the OP, but a LOT of people, you included, I'm afraid,

seem very threatened by my opinion...Why take it so personally?

As this thread should show you, you're hardly alone, but in saying

that, you have to know that I am not "alone" either.

I'm sorry..I can't help my view, and if I'm challenged on it,

so be it.

[moriah]

260. It's less that you think it's bad for yourself. It's that you're passing a value judgement on others

... and since I'm one of the ones who you insulted and belittled by making such a judgment, I think I have a right to be offended.

It'd be like a MRA-activist responding to a thread about feminism and saying that feminists were "sick" because they were somehow defying the "natural" order of things, and then citing Freud's outdated sexist nonsense to justify their views... and then when you were rightly offended, saying you had no right to take it personally since they were talking to someone else, and didn't care to hear about feminism anyway. (Begs the question, why give your opinion on a subject if you don't want to hear responses, particularly from the people you're stating an opinion/judgment about? Or click the thread?)

I could explain more, but what good can light do when the shutters are closed? All I hope to accomplish is to make you think before you pass judgment on others, particularly on the sex life of two consenting adults.

[whathehell]

263. Moriah, "goodbye" is my safeword..

and It means I no longer consent to this conversation.

Peace.

[moriah]

269. You know, it used to be against the rules to say you were going to put someone on ignore...

... and then fail to do so.

Because, you know, all a person has to do is simply not reply if they can't admit they're wrong but can't defend their position, either. Take the ball and bat with you.

[eridani]

271. People I know who do BDSM tell me that regardless of gender or orientations, subs far outnumber

--doms. Do you also find this to be true? Probably for the same reason there are usually more people in the audience than on stage?

[moriah]

275. Subs outnumber *good* Doms, in my personal experience.

Probably because it is such a damn hard job to do right.

[kickitup]

279. They don't want to even consider that sexual

Practices might somehow be reflective of the greater power structure within which they live. If they only realized the irony of rejecting such an idea - an idea that is firmly rooted in the theories of a gay philosopher who practiced BDSM. Either they honestly aren't aware or are being intellectually dishonest. That poor soul on another thread was trying to logically approach the discussion with legitimate social theory that no progressive should shun ( because it is the bedrock upon which so much change has been made in our culture's awareness of gay/lesbian and gender issues as well as a multitude of other issues) and they mocked him relentlessly, engaging in the same type of anti-intellectualism that they accuse those on the right if displaying. Unbelievable.

I will add that I think such ideas can be discussed without thinking or saying behaviors are 'sick'.

[pipi_k]

145. My two cents...

While it quite likely is perfectly natural for all living beings to avoid pain whenever possible, that doesn't mean people who do painful things are abnormal or unnatural.

I would say that many people tolerate, even invite, pain, depending on the rewards.

Take, for instance, childbearing and child-rearing.

Giving birth is not a picnic. Yet women do it multiple times. Are they "unnatural"?

Then there's child rearing. Months of sleepless nights with a newborn. Then the years between then and when the kids finally leave the home. Ever see the stress and chaos in a family with kids?

and let's not get into, "Well, that's a different pain...blah blah blah".

Pain is pain.

So, depending on the perceived rewards, people absolutely will accept, even seek out, pain, but that doesn't mean there's anything unnatural about what they're doing.

[seaglass]

147. Many women use drugs to alleviate the pain of childbirth, those who choose not to use drugs

normally make that choice because of concern about the drugs effect on the baby, not because they embrace the pain. I have never heard of a single woman who chose to have a child because she wanted to feel the pain, it's an unfortunate side effect for most people.

There is no doubt that some people are into pain and that it is therapeutic for them. Cutters for example.

Do you have an opinion about whether cutting is healthy or not?

Why would an opinion about whether cutting is healthy be any different from an opinion about whether any other activity that intentionally causes harm is healthy?

[whathehell]

155. Thank you..

[pipi_k]

158. Actually

you both misunderstand the point I was trying to make, but that's OK.

I'm not the best at trying to make a point.

[pipi_k]

157. Well OK

they don't have babies in order to feel the pain. They do it in spite of the pain.

But what I understood about the point of the person whose post I was replying to is that anyone who doesn't actively try to do anything possible to avoid it must be unnatural.

Or mentally ill, even.


And then, it all depends on what kind of pain people are looking for.

For me, personally, loud noises, lots of people, rushes of adrenaline, bright lights, extremes of temperature, even some forms of normal touching (like hugs) are extremely painful.

Yet there are people who actively seek out things I would judge as being painful... lots of activity and loud noises and rushes of adrenaline (jumping out of airplanes, extreme thrill rides) and similar things because their nervous systems aren't as sensitive as mine is.

Now, I could sit here and judge some of those people as being psychologically damaged, but that would be my opinion based on how I feel about it.

And I would be willing to bet that there are psychologists out there who would hesitate to call BDSM a sick activity because they're into it themselves, but don't want their professional reputations ruined, so they sort of go along with the status quo.


PS...also, I don't see the issue of "cutting" as being similar to BDSM in any way.

[steve2470]

274. BDSM was regarded as pathological until some time in the past

I remember reading previous editions of DSM and it was listed under paraphilias.

Here's DSM-5 on the topic:

Characteristics of Paraphilic Disorders

Most people with atypical sexual interests do not have a mental disorder. To be diagnosed with a paraphilic disorder, DSM-5 requires that people with these interests:

• feel personal distress about their interest, not merely distress resulting from society’s disapproval; or

• have a sexual desire or behavior that involves another person’s psychological distress, injury, or death, or a desire for sexual behaviors involving unwilling persons or persons unable to give legal consent.

http://www.dsm5.org/Documents/Paraphilic%20Disorders%20Fact%20Sheet.pdf

[RobinA]

180. No, Cutting

is not healthy. Yes, it serves a purpose. So does heroin. Better to find healthy ways to achieve ones purpose.

[Finagled]

295. If the natural human reaction is to avoid pain...

why do you keep coming back to this thread for a flogging? I think you've got some kinks to work out. Repression is unhealthy.

[whathehell]

296. LOL!

"why do you keep coming back to this thread for a flogging?"

Actually, I thought I did my share of "flogging" as well, but more to the point,

that post was written NINE days ago, so I'm afraid your lame attempt

at wit is a tad out of date. Have a good one

[whathehell]

298. "Brilliance" indeed..You failed to get even 4 posts here before getting one hid!

I'd say it's you who likes a flogging.

[nolabear]

248. Hi from a shrink.

People do things for all kinds of reasons. I've talked to a number of people, professionally and otherwise, who enjoy BDSM. Sometimes it is tangled up with low self esteem, though it would take me too long to explain how--it's a healthier response than you might think.

FAR more often it's fueled by the thrill of "transgression" and doing something outside the norm, and by the same kind of impulse that makes someone get on a roller coaster or climb a mountain. If it's safe and people are trustworthy, it's grown-up Disneyland.

And yes, I've read a lot about others' work on it and no, I don't do it. I don't go on roller coasters either. My choice. Their choice.

[whathehell]

252. Sorry, Nola...I've Left the Dungeon

I doubt I'll be missed -- In fact, I expect everyone to have a

rip, spankin' good ole time.

[nolabear]

254. LOL! Be well. Stay safe!

[whathehell]

259. Absolutely!

[kentauros]

95. "The natural human instinct is to avoid pain, not seek it."

Then why do people "enjoy" eating ghost peppers?

I'll tell you exactly why they put themselves through that particular kind of hell: endorphin rush. I'm sure you've heard the phrase "No pain, no gain." Well, despite what some define as a gain in physical health, it's more about getting that endorphin rush. "Runner's High."

And, getting an endorphin rush during sexual activity is a goal of many humans. If some psychiatric professionals are trying to tell you it's about self-esteem, then they also need to get out more often. Either that, or they have never had an endorphin rush in their lives. I highly recommend getting one

[whathehell]

97. Uh, some people enjoy that,

Just like some people "enjoy" being demeaned.

Most?...not so much.

[kentauros]

99. Where were the modifiers "some" and "most" used in the OP?

I simply stated that "people" go for pain for the endorphin rush. By your quote alone, you seem to want to deny that any people would want anything painful in their lives.

Your quote also has no such modifiers. People do indeed enjoy pain, for the reasons I gave, as well as BDSM. An endorphin rush is part of those practices, and thus, part of the enjoyment. What part is unclear?

[whathehell]

107. What Op?

Just because YOu state something, that doesn't make it true.

Sorry bro, but my endorphin rushes come from pleasure, not pain.

[kentauros]

113. And you seem to have a problem following a conversation.

I posted links to factual information, not simply "opinion." The OP, i.e., "original post" that started this thread, came from a practioner of BDSM. I'd call that beyond simple opinion as well. Or you could look up factual information about BDSM to supplement your seemingly limited knowledge of it. My educated guess, though, is that your opinion on the subject trumps our facts.

And I don't really care where your endorphin rushes come from. Other people get it from pain. If that's not your scene, why the problem with how other people get the same experience?

[whathehell]

124. And you don't seem to know the MEANING of a "conversation"

First of all, the OP posted no facts whatsoever in the OP beyond

that of being a BDSMer and that of his "training" people to do it safely.

None of which has ANYTHING to do with the quality or "healthiness" of

this practice which is what I, at least, have been discussing.

No, dear..I haven't read every post on the thread, if that's what you

mean by a "conversation".

Secondly, your post states NOTHING about the number of people

who "enjoy" this pepper...NOTHING...There are no "facts" contained

on that point at all.

And, no, I don't care where YOUR endorphins come from either..Safe

to say, most people get them from PLEASURE, not pain.

Come back when you can write coherently....Until then, I believe I'll say

"adieu".

[kentauros]

128. Again, you're using the modifier of "most people"

which neither of us stated in our posts in this subthread. Perhaps you need to edit you post upthread if you are going to insist on that statement.

The facts stated by the OP are experience-based, something that is indeed accepted as being factual. Unless your only criteria for that definition is that it must come from some accredited source? Because, to me, firsthand experience is as much a fact as a statement from a highly-educated researcher, or whatever constitutes your definition of "factual."

The "conversation" is the subthread you created.

"Number" of people has nothing to do with the fact that people get an endorphin rush on eating ghost peppers, and others that are hotter than a habanero. If even just two people in the world get that effect, then calling them "people" is factual. However, anyone with any knowledge about why enough people eat these insanely hot peppers would also be able to see just how popular these peppers have become (and how profitable.) If there was no profit, we likely would never have seen these peppers introduced to this country.

People want that pain because it gives them a rush lasting at least as long as the pain before it fades. Read the links I provided so I don't have to do your research for you. Unless you're just lazy that way...

[whathehell]

130. and I'll continue to use it..Listen, bro, you can "enjoy" all the pain you

want, but you're now starting to give ME pain, like in the posterior,

and I do NOT enjoy it, so please welcome yourself to

the big "I" List -- It's been real.

[moriah]

239. So you post judgmental crap, and when people call you on it, you put them on ignore?

Great way to have enlightened discussion with fellow liberals.

[kentauros]

265. I guess being enlightened was too much for him.

That's too bad, because I thought we were having a conversation. But, I guess not. Being stubborn even when presented with linked facts kills any discussion every time.

[moriah]

266. t's rather like taking one's ball and bat and going home.

But if it means they stop posting judgmental crap about others.... here's your ball and bat.

[kentauros]

267. And I would help hand it over, too.

I don't do any BDSM stuff, but have subjected myself to hot sauce pain just to experience that endorphin rush. Once. While the rush was great, it's not something I'd want to put my body through on any kind of basis, regular or otherwise. However, I am now enlightened as to the why that people do such things.

Constantly denying the fact that people do painful things in order to get that endorphin rush does not negate the very fact that's exactly why people court pain. If there was no endorphin rush, then this whole thread wouldn't exist, either. And it's difficult to imagine what our world would be like without that biochemical process...

[awoke_in_2003]

117. you may be right, maybe most don't

but some do.

[whathehell]

126. Correct -- I never said otherwise.

[moriah]

84. The APA at one point thought homosexuality was unhealthy, too. Guess you support that as well.

Wouldn't surprise me. After all, the "natural human instinct" is to want to engage in reproductive sex, right?

[BuddhaGirl]

87. +1

[whathehell]

91. Yes, I know, but you guess wrong on that one..

Sorry to disappoint.

[moriah]

93. Really! Wow! Psychiatrists can change their opnions, and it be legitimate!

Hip-hip HORRAY!

[BuddhaGirl]

149. So was the removal of homosexuality from the DSM

because of "political correctness" or "pressure?"

[LanternWaste]

169. I imagine it's ethically convenient to disagree with the academics when it suits your own biases

I imagine it's ethically convenient to disagree with the academics when it suits your own biases, and agree with them when it doesn't.

[whathehell]

181. and I imagine it's equally convenient to assume that as the dynamic

at play when it suits yours.

[Ash_F]

133. We talking about what's 'natural' on DU now?

[mr blur]

138. This is absolute bullshit.

You have no idea whatsoever about the BDSM life. Read the OP written by someone who knows what they are talking about before you start pontificating.

I, and other adherents that I know, have neither "low self-esteem" nor "a damaged ability to experience positive intimacy". Don't be so fucking pompous and stop telling us all what "natural human instinct" is.

[whathehell]

141. Argue with the shrinks, honey..This was their position

until they received lots of petitions from practitioners

complaining that the official "diagnosis" was reinforcing a stigma, and making

their lives difficult. In other words, social pressure. .

P.S. If you think I'm "pontificating" or speaking "bullshit", why do you
keep reading my posts?...Remember that Ignore is your friend.

[nolabear]

250. HI! HELLO! Shrink response!

There's a difference between what the DSM "official diagnosis" says and the full complexity of human beings. Contrary to popular belief, ethical practitioners are willing to be educated by our people. Back in the bad old days people manipulated diagnoses for all kinds of horrendous reasons and I don't doubt they still do. But when you're out there in the field, talking to people, you can't make blanket generalizations. I've known some BDSM practitioners who are comfortable, healthy, high functioning people who have their own reasons, and they are myriad, for enjoying the faux helplessness and non-damaging pain that responsible BDSM brings.

See upthread for another reply. Sorry, I'm late to the fight.

[whathehell]

253. I saw your other post, Nola, and i'm sorry, but I'm using my "safe word"

Outtahere.

[nolabear]

255. ...

[whathehell]

258. LOL..

Sorry, bro..I'm not much of a "sub".

Look around, though, you might find someone else here who

likes that sort of thing.

[Prophet 451]

206. Conservatives say the same about homosexuality being delisted n/t

[whathehell]

211. Yeah..They also say "good morning" in the A.M.

[Hippo_Tron]

216. Please cite your evidence that the decision was based on political correctness...

And please show me the peer reviewed articles demonstrating that it's based on low self-esteem and a damaged ability to experience positive intimacy.

[whathehell]

240. See post #38

You can do the rest of the research yourself.

[Hippo_Tron]

256. Nope, you made the claims the burden of proof is on you

[whathehell]

261. No, I gave you enough..

Do your own research.

[snooper2]

98. Everyone wants to smack a little ass , male or female

It's cool--

Roll with it dude!

[whathehell]

106. Well, I disagree, but

I'll let you roll with that, dude!

[awoke_in_2003]

118. I am not into BDSM...

but I don't mind a good spank every now and again.

[Gore1FL]

42. As long as it's consenting adults, I prefer to leave it to them to set the boundaries. n/t

[whathehell]

63. Well, sure, there's nothing else to do..

but I think it's sick.

[moriah]

90. The difference between "squick" and "sick" is consent, to my mind.

Squick (n). verb, informal

1. cause immediate and thorough revulsion.

If it makes you puke a little in your mouth, which is what it sounds like, but others enjoy the hell out of it and you don't want to sound like a judgmental prude by saying *they* are sick, the more accurate term is that it squicks you.

If it makes everyone puke a little in their mouth, because it's harming children or people who can't or don't consent to such activities, *that's* when sexual activity is sick.

[whathehell]

94. That's nice..

but I really just don't care much...I have my opinion, you have yours.

End of story.

[moriah]

96. But, you see, what you are saying can also be construed as a personal attack.

I don't like to alert, but calling other people on DU "sick" for their private sexual behavior is pretty damn uncivil.

If that wasn't what you meant, I thought you might appreciate an alternate way of expressing your viewpoint. But it looks like that'e exactly what you did mean.

"What the hell" is right.

[whathehell]

101. I don't think so..

First of all, I didn't call "other people on Du 'sick'". I gave my opinion of a practice.

The fact that it doesn't square with yours doesn't make it a "personal attack".

I'm going to sleep now. Have a good night.

[easttexaslefty]

194. For sure.

[awoke_in_2003]

119. I think putting A-1 on a steak is sick...

but who the heck am I to judge?

[whathehell]

125. Who do you have to be?

[CaptainTruth]

71. There are also many things ...

... that fall under the umbrella of BDSM that don't involve any physical or mental pain. Don't think that BDSM = pain. It does not. It's not about pain, it's about sensation.

[whathehell]

73. hmmm...

The word "sensation" is quite vague. How would you describe

this sensation?

[CaptainTruth]

81. Some people take a simplistic view ...

... of "pleasure" & "pain," as if they're black & white, with nothing in between, but in reality there are far more than 50 shades of sensation (sorry for the bad pun, I had too ) between the two endpoints.

For a no-pain example, I know a sub who likes silk bondage. She likes to be blindfolded & tied with silk scarves & caressed with soft objects. An ostrich feather is a favorite, it's so delicate it gives the "doigts d'araignees" (spider fingers) sensation of barely being touched ... it drives her crazy. It's bondage & therefore falls within the realm of BDSM, but there is absolutely nothing remotely resembling "pain" involved.

[whathehell]

115. and some may take an overly complex one..

to legitimize their particular tastes.

The example you give doesn't sound particularly negative..I'm speaking of

things which involve actual pain, mental or physical.

[Marrah_G]

244. Some people get an adrenaline rush from certain levels of pain or anticipation

Sometimes it involves sex, sometimes not. Sometimes pain, sometimes not. An example is getting a tattoo. Some people get a rush of endorphins, it can even be addictive. The same goes for bdsm. Some just like bondage sex. Others like things like branding (not what you think) others like the thuddy feel of a flogger. It is a huge range of kinks, desire, etc.

Others like the power exchange in a dominant submissive relationship.

Safe, sane and consensual is the mantra.

[whathehell]

247. Sorry, Marrah, but as I just informed another poster here,

this Vanilla Girl is now Leaving the Dungeon .

[awoke_in_2003]

116. another thought...

whatever gets them through the night, is all right. Just because you don't care for certain things does not mean that others don't. Whatever an adult couple consensually decides to do together is none of our business and shouldn't be judged. If it isn't happening in your front yard, so what?

[whathehell]

127. You must have come in late to this discussion..

because I have NOT in this entire thread said anyone must like what I do.

If it's "none of our business", why the hell is the OP starting a thread

about it?...As for "judging", I don't think anyone, myself included, is

judging from a moral standpoint, but from a standpoint of psychological

health, it has been evaluated and I think that's ok...People are allowed

their opinions.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

201. True, true

And I, too, am completely repulsed by some individuals' desire for pain in sex. It's revolting to me. But clearly for a few people in the world it is the only way they like to have sex, and I'm all in favor of adults doing to each other whatever they want as long as it is a choice they all are making.

[whathehell]

209. Well, thanks for that...

I'm believe most people feel that way, much as that apparently

angers some here.

As to your last point, that's a given..Good grief, I never

said I wanted to invade peoples bedrooms and

"outlaw" consensual behavor...The only reason I even got into

this discussion is because the OP asked a question as to "cause"

and I gave him the traditional psychiatric explanation...After that,

the attacks kept coming.

It's as if people think that expressing an opinion equates

to that person going on a personal campaign to "outlaw"

something, and that's an absurd assumption.

Consenting adults have a right to do what they want -- That's as it

should be.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

285. :) I agree. Consenting adults do have the right to do what they desire

as long as it's with other adults and these others are consenting.

Still, I find the whole activity nasty.

[whathehell]

290. The rights of consenting adults being a given, you still

find the whole activity nasty, as do I -- I understand & agree completely.

[eridani]

208. Define "pain"

I've had general anaesthesia for dental operations that my husband has undergone with just a local.

[whathehell]

210. You define "pain"

I've exhausted my interest in the subject and I'm especially

uninterested in any more attacks or "gotcha" questions.

[eridani]

272. It's about what you experience, not about what someone else does to you n/t

[whathehell]

286. The people involved admit they experience pain -- and they like it

You can try and whitewash that as much as you want, but there it is.

[brooklynite]

287. Some people who exercise experience pain as well...

It's a matter of processing the pain experience into something enjoyable.

[whathehell]

289. The pain most people exercising experience is

a matter of a means to an end -- not an end in itself.

The endure the pain to reach an objective, not to experience pain

[whathehell]

288. The dental thing

is not really analogous. People differ in their thresholds of pain -- Some

are more sensitive to it than others, which seems the likely reason for

the difference between the operation prep between you and your

husband...Unless you tell me otherwise, I doubt your husband

ENJOYS dental pain -- He's just less sensitive to it than you are.

Contrast that to S&M practitioners -- They LIKE the giving and receiving

of pain -- That's a whole different kettle of fish.

[sibelian]

174. It's about trust.

Actually it's about a whoooooole bunch of things but primarily trust.

Trying to reduce to a simple, monolithic explanation is exactly like trying to reduce sex itself to a single, monolithic explanation.

I don't like the terms "kink" and "fetish". I think these terms occlude the fact that it's a sexual orientation.

[NightWatcher]

3. Always trust a professional

I once dated a.....

It's pretty wild to play with power and trust with someone who knows what they're doing.

[genwah]

9. All in a day's work...

[LongTomH]

4. Thanks for sharing!

[CarrieLynne]

5. agreed!

I have been involved, on both ends of the flogger for many years myself.....there is a ton of misinformation out there....its rediculous.....
There's are ways to stick a toe in the water that dont include someone else pushing you into the pool

[leftstreet]

6. Have you read the Book That Shall Not Be Mentioned?

If you don't mind my asking...I've wondered if the practice in the book is the same as what you're talking about? Is that part of the controversy?

[green917]

29. I am also a longtime...

I am also a long time practitioner of bdsm and did, unfortunately, read the book in question. I can assure you that nothing in that book ( I did only read the first one) is even remotely reminiscent of a healthy bdsm relationship! The relationships in that book, particularly the principal relationship, are a misogynistic and abusive misrepresentation of what a truly healthy bdsm relationship is! A true bdsm relationship is built upon mutual trust and admiration (if not love)...what they present in that book is a rich asshole taking advantage of a sexually naive young woman and, although that does, sadly, occasionally happen it is far from being the accepted norm in any bdsm scene I have ever been a part of. In fact, most of the practitioners that I know would report such a relationship to the authorities as abusive. If you really want to learn about bdsm, I would suggest setting up a profile on fetlife.com and joining message boards or even attending a local munch.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

45. ^^THIS POST DEMANDS ATTENTION^^

Last edited Mon Jul 28, 2014, 08:54 PM - Edit history (1)

[DeadLetterOffice]

47. +1000

[bravenak]

76. That's all.

That's exactly how i read it.

[CaptainTruth]

77. Here here!!!

I have helped several curious subs join FetLife.com, find a local group, attend a munch (especially a newbie roundtable if the group has one) & generally find their way to a happier life (with supportive & knowledgeable people) within the kinky community. It is a path I would recommend to anyone who wants to explore the lifestyle.

[Luminous Animal]

86. Thank you. I've and others have been trying to help people to understand that

the book is not a sexy romp through the BDSM scene but rather a description of emotional abuse and nonconsensual sexual violence. We have been dismissed because apparently, we are feminists of a certain sort.

[green917]

238. you're welcome

Apparently, I'm a feminist of the same sort bit that book is, aside from not being particularly well written, it's as you said a description of an abusive relationship.

[sibelian]

100. Absolutely.

[sibelian]

109. I have not... but...

I am told by others of my leathery clan that the tome under discussion is unhelpful.

[steve2470]

7. Thanks for this thread, important message nt

[genwah]

8. Thanks. We're 99 days out, and talking about everything under the sun except what we need to be

doing.

[whathehell]

72. Yup.

I think this belongs in the "alternative lifestyles" forum, or something.

[LanternWaste]

170. You appear to be under the impression that people can focus on one, and only one concern at any give

You appear to be under the impression that people can focus on one, and only one concern at any given time. For half-wits and idiots that may be true, but the rational mind seems to exceed your expectations of it... and I'd guess that's a positive thing all the way around.

[genwah]

199. I like Frank Herbert's update on the word ghaflah. It's the small distraction that kills. Others

have a real definition.

Ghaflah Term Image (al-ghaflah)
(Language: Arabic)
Alternate Spellings:
Short Description: Negligence, heedlessness, unconsciousness.
Long Description:
Source(s): Introduction to Sufi Doctrine (by Titus Burckhardt)

But I like Herbert's. definition more, because that's what I see here. Can I ask, what was the point of your comment to my comment? Am I somehow short-sighted in hoping that action comes from here, from this "community" and I meant the quotation marks, because we don't seem very supportive of one another here. WTF does my expectaiions of a rational mind, whatever the FUCK that means, have to do with ANYTHING?

Why is it impossible for anyone to publish anything here that someone isn't out to drag the crab that speaks out back into the herd? Why can no one publish anything here incapable of finding nay-sayers and argumentative ad hominiems because of some crap that happened in some discussion posted two years ago? And as for you, LanternWaste, WHAT'S YOUR FUCKING PROBLEM? " My expectations of a rational mind? What the hell does that even mean? FUCK YOU VERY MUCH!

I've been banned from better places than this goddamned snipe-fest, and if you have the juice to do it, go right ahead. I'm a member of the Elizabeth Warren wing of the Democratic Party, I came here looking for allies, and yes, we'll have diaagreements, but we have real WORK to do. Lead, follow, or get out of the way.

[lovemydog]

10. Great post.

I even learned a new word.

outwith
World English Dictionary
outwith (ˌaʊtˈwɪθ )

— prep
( Scot ) outside; beyond

[LiberalElite]

35. Me too -

I thought it was a typo but it was used twice.

[lovemydog]

54. There's joy in repetition.

There's joy in repetition.

[riqster]

186. You can say that again.

[awoke_in_2003]

120. same here. nt

[Tuesday Afternoon]

46. me too. Can't wait to use it in a sentence.

[lovemydog]

55. I'm heading for a glorious nature walk, outwith the confines

of my claustrophobic office. I think that works.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

58. I don't blame you.

I would love to go outwith you !!

uh ... ok.

Mine needs a little work

[cui bono]

78. Haha...

[lovemydog]

83. Haha, awesome.

[sibelian]

172. Imagine my amazement when I found out it wasn't English...

...But Scottish. I thought it was just a word!

[Marrah_G]

11. I agree completely

[navarth]

12. how did this come up??

...I must have missed something fun.

[steve2470]

13. 50 shades of grey threads nt

[navarth]

15. I assume this refers to a tv show? I'll look it up

thanks, I think?

[steve2470]

17. just type 50 shades of grey into the DU search box in the upper right hand corner up there

You'll get several threads about the book and upcoming movie, due out in 2015.

[navarth]

21. Well I got quite an eyeful there

2 super hot people getting kinky....sure that's fun but is that all that the movie is about?

[steve2470]

23. I'd just read all the threads, tbh nt

[awoke_in_2003]

121. haven't been on DU for the past couple of days...

have you?

[navarth]

153. ha! I guess not...

Seems to me like I visit every day....but it is possible to miss stuff, that's been proven to me more times than not.

Apparently there was quite a brouhaha about this movie? I don't get it, seems like DU wouldn't be a place that cared to discuss a couple of hot movie stars doing some fun kinky....but when I comes down to it, I'm reasonably sure that whatever the issue is, I probably won't feel it's important enough to get upset about.

Fun to talk about though.

[kickitup]

196. Here's the rules for 50 Shades on DU ...

1) if you are into BDSM you are allowed to criticize the book for depicting an abusive relationship.

2) if you are not into BDSM you are not allowed to see the book as abusive because that makes you guilty of trying to control what people do in their bedrooms. Only people into BDSM can do that.

3) you can't question the practice of BDSM in general because discussing sex and sexual politics is frowned upon here

4) you can critique the book and examine sexual practices but you must have a phd and work at a university and your musings must be in academic circles only, hopefully peer reviewed

5) you are allowed to voice support for erotica like the book in question but if you bring up erotica where the black male body is used as the focus point for sexual gratification in what might be offensive ways then you will be called a racist.

I hope this clears everything up for you.

[navarth]

200. Ah! Well that's a relief

I was afraid I might not understand what it was all about for a minute there. Problem solved.

"...I'll retire to Bedlam..."
-Ebeneezer Scrooge

[rug]

14. "Do NOT, repeat NOT absorb information about BDSM from non-practitioners"

Goddammit, what's the safe word?

[whathehell]

20. LOL!!

[lunasun]

16. danke schoen

[Blue_Adept]

18. But how else can we be armchair experts at it?

Or anything else?

[sibelian]

175. Well, you can make things up, of course...

... I just think it's a good idea for people reading this site to know that the view that it's weird or creepy seems to come from a small handful of people who are primarily using their objection to it as a way of shoring up their own identity rather than addressing what it is.

[Blue_Adept]

177. Oh, I know.

I've spent my years in the things that people here find abhorrent for quite a few reasons. It's why I generally don't bother, because trying to explain it ends up getting you accused of all kinds of things.

Definitely appreciated your post, but I fell victim to just being snarky.

[sibelian]

228. Ach, sorry. I misread YOU. :)

I've found that the abhorrers are typically playing to an audience that's entirely imaginary. I'm sure there are quite a few knocking around on this thread, the reply total is considerably higher than I can actually see! I put most of the sniggerers on ignore a long time ago. Snotty adolescent junk's fine for school, but I work for a living. They can stick as many "kick me" signs on my back that they like... Why should *I* care?

As for accusations... I figure - so what? "It's a message board not a job interview" I told myself one day and threw the whole pile of DU's "winks to the gallery" idiots under my own personal bus. Works well!

[whathehell]

188. "The view that it's weird or creepy seems to come from a small handful of people.."

You MUST be kidding!

[DeSwiss]

19. K&R!

- I always use LEGOs when I'm BDSMing....




Thank you.

[ismnotwasm]

32. Just went to see this guy

Don't know about his private life-- but he does make robots-- with Legos


http://robotics.benedettelli.com

[Gore1FL]

44. The one in the red is hawt!

She'd have my Lego-self in pieces almost immediately.

[cui bono]

82. Don't forget to use the safe word

if you want her to Lego.

[awoke_in_2003]

122. For some reason when I saw that...

the line "Drop your panties Sir William, I cannot wait 'til lunchtime" popped in my head. You have to understand, I can turn almost anything into a Monte Python reference.

[ismnotwasm]

22. I am not.

But I have friends who are, there is a local club I'm familiar with and if you call, they are more than happy to give you the basics, interview you if you are interested, and are pretty good at vetting as well as educating people. My good friend is a Gay Dom, she one of the most sexually responsible persons I've ever met.

After trashing at least 20 threads, I'm happy to see one that is sensible and important. Once the movie comes out, hopefully more people will hear this kind of message.

[tammywammy]

50. I recommend utilizing the trash by keyword.

I put in "50 shades" and "fifty shades" seems to get most of them.

[donco]

25. Lookin for

an Onion link.Still lookin.

[whathehell]

34. Yeah, same here..

[sibelian]

176. To what?

?

[FarPoint]

27. I have no clue what sexual practice you are referring.

Clueless I tell you...Now I have to go look it up.

[steve2470]

28. bondage discipline sadomasochism masochism, bdsm nt

[FarPoint]

30. Ohhhhhhhhhh

....I'm out....I swing soft, gentle, free and frisky .
Thank you kindly for the clarification.

[KoKo]

60. After you do..just realize...there is much support for "Porn Industry"

here on "DU" these days and elsewhere all over the internet.. And, don't forget the above thread links to sites that will "clue you in" if you are interested.

Be sure to get out there to "50 Shades of Gray" Movie Premiers so that you get a taste of what delights you are missing and don't forget to Bookmark this thread...for the handy links "if ...you want to go further into it" and decide you need some videos and a primer for the "stop" code words. Look up BDSM on Wiki and don't forget "fetish.com." Good resource materiel.

It's quite enlightening..(Or, So..I've been told on this thread).

Hey..."Different strokes for different folks." But, there's some good money to be make from "click bait" and....who knows? We have a whole new group that needs our support for their freedoms. And, we've learned there are "Practitioners Amongst Us." So all we have to do is PM them if we forget the bookmark for this thread.

Whatever.... Doesn't seem to fit here in GD...but, anything goes these days. DU Lounge was where it might have gone in years past.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

79. In years past, sex threads were not allowed anywhere on DU not even in the Lounge.

Now the Lounge is so dead not even Mick can revive it.

[awoke_in_2003]

123. One of the few songs by the stones I like...

the other is this

[Tuesday Afternoon]

161. Yes, another good one from the eighties but, then I love The Stones. Seen them twice.

[Nye Bevan]

36. OK, here ya go:

[SammyWinstonJack]

75. ...

[sibelian]

102. ...

[stuffmatters]

37. Safe.Sane.Consentual are essential Collarchat & Fet Life are good ref sites

Not everyone on there is knowledgeable or honorable, but those message boards are informative & the
irresponsible opportunists are usually called out by the responsible & experienced. There are also refs to meet ups/ educational sessions in most cities.

Yes, 50 Shades of Grey is going to bring a lot of attention/attraction to bdsm practices. And because of bdsm dynamics, there are inherent emotional, physical even financial dangers for the inexperienced ...both in choosing responsible partners and in even basic power exchange practices.

In general probably a good tip is not to get involved with any Republican or Libertarian who claims to follow bdsm. There is no place for that selfishness, narcissism, cruelty for cruelty sake in the safe,emotionally and sensually expansive dialectic of bdsm.

[edbermac]

38. Do you need a college degree to practice that?

Like "I went to MIT to get my PhD in BDSM."

[Tuesday Afternoon]

48. ... lol ...

thanks for the chuckle. really did lol

[sibelian]

105. Put it this way...

I'd be the Dean at that college.

[MisterP]

39. I heard Grey called the worst dom since the Marquis: they're right nt

[DeadLetterOffice]

49. The character of Grey is NOT a dom

The character of Grey is an abusive asshole.
I have never, EVER met a male dom who would do the kinds of shit Grey did in the Book That Shall Not Be Named.

[rickyhall]

41. O

[sibelian]

190. ... M.... G?

[Android3.14]

43. Outwith

Apparently "outwith" means "outside". Learn something new...

"I would suggest to anyone interested in the practice to research it outside the field of fiction and entirely outside the field of political message boards."

[sibelian]

173. It's typical in Scotland to use the word in place of "outside"

When one is discussing something excluded conceptually, or excluded from a process or condition. "Outside" is more often used to describe things not in physical places or containers.

Having said that it's a fairly archaic word.

[truebluegreen]

52. OT but Hi, Sibellan

How goes the campaign?

[sibelian]

108. It has become surreal.

I did expect it to... but now the levels of horror that are supposedly to descend on Scotland if we leave the UK have become so epic I might be living in a Michael Bay movie next year. If the Better Together campaign started telling us that dinosaurs with laser beams coming out their eyes will spontaneously appear on the horizon in the event of the Yes vote winning, I wouldn't be at all surprised.

[truebluegreen]

146. Sorry to hear that

but yes, not surprising. Good luck to you.

[riqster]

187. All the best to you and your campaign.

My forebears left in the 1500's, but some things don't dim with time.

[packman]

56. Du is getting smutter and smutter

Why in the name of anything holy or unholy would one feel compelled to put a post an BDSM on a blog such as this? Is it appropriate?

Do we need a Penthouse type forum here?

[DRoseDARs]

62. Oh put a ball gag in it, Mary...

If you were worried about the content of the thread, WHY DID YOU OPEN IT?



Also: This is a Smutter. The word you were actually looking for was "smuttier" with an i.

[packman]

88. "i" did not want any part of it

So beat me with a stick. The name isn't Mary,it's Balzak and can we meet somewhere?

[DRoseDARs]

182. I could kiss you for that pun, but the law and this thread require that I smack you around.

The safe word is "banana"

[sibelian]

178. Recent discussions have focussed on an allegedly irresponsible portrayal of BDSM.

The book "50 Shades of Grey" is to be made into a movie and multiple discussions of it, and it subject matter, have ensued. It is important that people who are unfamiliar with how BDSM works and potentially interested in finding out (there have been some here who have expressed curiosity) to contact responsible sources of information rather than being bamboozled by trolls on an internet message board.

Regardless of that, why do you think discussions of BDSM are "inappropriate"?

[Marrah_G]

300. It's in response to a popular book being made into a movie being discussed here

[DonCoquixote]

57. thank you

50 shades is neither safe, nor sane, nor consentual.

[secondvariety]

59. Is this a joke?

It's a joke, right?

[whathehell]

69. Unfortunately, no..

[sibelian]

103. Why do you think it's a joke?

[IronLionZion]

64. Anyone in the DC metro area who are curious

Check out the Black Rose Society http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Rose_(BDSM_organization)

It's a mostly educational group to learn how to explore responsibly and safely. There are social groups around here too, but its probably best to start with black rose.

[Marrah_G]

306. And in New England

http://67.159.222.79/resources/regionalevents.htm

[CaptainTruth]

65. As a practicing Master ...

... I say thank you. People who don't know what they're doing can be injured, including permanent nerve damage. I'll be the first to say it can be a wonderful experience for those who enjoy it, but please learn how to do it safely!

[Marrah_G]

303. This ^

[KittyWampus]

67. LOL! ONLY absorb information that is positive from BDSM practitioners. LOL!

[whathehell]

70. LOL!

[2pooped2pop]

104. wow, have I come late to this discussion!

WE are now projecting ourselves into other peoples bedrooms?

Damn. Sounds republican

just sayin

let consenting adults decide for themselves seems to be the way to go.

Not my circus, not my monkeys, not my problem.

[Puzzledtraveller]

112. We are all BDSM'ers

[sibelian]

114. I am Spartacus.

[whathehell]

131. Really?

I think you might want to speak for yourself, bro.

[Puzzledtraveller]

132. Every day

we engage in BDSM.

[whathehell]

144. Yeah..sure..uh huh..

Whatever you say.

[Ash_F]

134. I am curious what spurred the posting of this OP

I'll admit I could not help but click on it.

[sibelian]

167. The badly written mess that is "50 shades of Grey"

is to become a movie, much to the disgust of Some.

I have not read it. I am informed by others of the Up For It crowd that it is a poor representation of our interests.

[Ash_F]

203. A co-worker looked up from a book and asked me what BDSM stood for.

At work last week.

I just looked at her blankly for a moment.

Me: ... Is that 50 Shades of Grey?
Her:... yes
Me:...

[eridani]

136. Novices badly need this kind of information from a face to face community

All the horror stories you hear seem to result from online arrangements.

[sibelian]

152. Yes, many people don't even have the CONCEPT of doing it safely.

There are a whole range of things you need to know before you embark on BDSM, including:

Managing expectations
Making sure that both sub and dom have actually agreed on what is supposed to happen and what it actually is
Making sure that there are ways to end the scene
NOT going off to strange places to do "crazy stuff" with strangers without letting anyone know what you're doing, preferably by phoning a friend once you've arrived there, telling them the address
Making sure you understand enough about what you're doing so you don't actually injure people
Things that can go wrong during negotiation
Not treating it as some kind of competition

etc, etc

LOADs of stuff. Many people don't even know the safety culture exists. Before the Internet raised it's ugly head the community was focussed entirely on safety and consent. Now anyone can set up a camera or an on-line persona and behave like a prat.

[Marrah_G]

299. And the BDSM communities are pretty good at policing their own.

Abusive people are ostracized and newcomers are watched over protectively. That is my experience anyway.

[Marrah_G]

305. I always tell people to reach out to others in the real world

New subs should make friends with longtime subs and new Doms should make friends with long time Dominants.

Best place to do this is at a "munch"- this is a non sexual gathering of people usually at a restaurant where people can socialize and get to know others in a safe environment.

[NuttyFluffers]

137. good PSA, thanks!

safe, sane, & consensual. wise to go research from a better source than here.

[IronLionZion]

139. Sticks and stones may break my bones but chains and whips excite me!

Rihanna S&M video

[lupinella]

151. Thanks for this

Since I'm not on social media or into chat I hadn't realized that people were actually looking at that poorly written fanfic* as a source of information. Am very happy to see someone address this issue from an informed stance.
To anyone out there who thinks that they understand the scene from reading fiction, please seek out workshops: it is probably not what you think it is.

*there are actually good fanfics written in re. BDSM, but that is certainly not one of them.

[Feral Child]

154. Thank you, sibelian,

for the voice of sanity.

Predictably, the unofficial Morality Police are attempting to shout you down.

[sibelian]

168. Nae bother.

As for the morality police, most of them are invisible to me due to the excellent ignore function. Roffle and rolly-eye smilies abound, I take it?

Substantial numbers of them wouldn't know a moral position if it slapped them in the face repeatedly with a haddock.

[cwydro]

159. Omg

I cannot imagine attending any kind of "workshop" for sex.

Lol, who knew?

[In_The_Wind]

184. They can be very informative.

One may simply watch without involvement.

[sibelian]

189. Not all of BDSM is about sex.

There's a sizeable sub-group of BDSMers that roleplay without any sex at all.

[nadinbrzezinski]

162. May I add an observation

The portrayal of journalism, especially at the level of a student paper, is that bad as well.

[meegbear]

164. How do deaf BDSMers give the safe word?

[opiate69]

165. The "Safe word" doesn't have to be a word, really.

Any agreed upon gesture such as raising a hand or what have you can work as long as it is agreed upon and the "top" is aware of it before hand. I mean, really, it can be really difficult to say any kind of safe word with a gag in ones mouth, no?

[sibelian]

171. As opiate said...

I'm not deaf, but I had one sub who safed out by snapping his fingers.

Aside from anything else, any proper BDSMer wouldn't engage in a scene without the ability to end it at the behest of the sub. So yeah, deafness in a top would be a challenge, but not insurmountable.

[opiate69]

179. My wife's safe word is "Simon

José Antonio de la Santísima Trinidad Bolívar y Palacios Ponte y Blanco"

Try saying that with a crop in your mouth!

[riqster]

192. Gestures. Also applies for people wearing gags.

Said signals being part of the pre-scene negotiation. At least, in real life at properly-run events.

[Marrah_G]

301. Safe word potato. Why? Because you can still say it wearing a ball gag!

[riqster]

310. I'll take your word for it.

[riqster]

191. Not into heavy play, but I have taught at a good number of events across the US.

I teach negotiation and communication skills. And the classes are always packed.

Responsible people in any pursuit want to do that pursuit well and to the best of their ability. Irresponsible people get booted out of events, because of liability and community standards. Learning to negotiate is key in any endeavor, but especially so when physical and emotional limits are being pushed.

I applaud sibelian for the starting the first (and likely only) thread on this topic that is worth reading.

"Got Consent?"

[seaglass]

193. Yeah it seems that safeword abuse and violating limits is a big issue.

http://disruptingdinnerparties.com/2013/03/15/got-consent-2-safewording-abuse/

In January 2013, the National Coalition for Sexual Freedom (NCSF), a legal advocacy organization for kinky and/or ethically non-monogamous people, released a survey about consent in BDSM communities.

At the very end of they summary of findings, NCSF writes:

Additionally, 30.1% of respondents indicated that they had a pre-negotiated limit violated and 14.9% had experienced having a safe word or safe sign ignored. The aggregate total is 33%: 1 in 3 kinky people have experienced a consent violation, further emphasizing the need for greater education.

33%. That’s dramatically higher than the already-way-too-high rate of sexual assault in America (20%).

...

Over the past 20 months or so, there’s been a war on in the BDSM community about issues of abuse and consent—in particular, the ability to call out predators. The war broke out, in part, after a piece in Good Vibrations Magazine in July 2011 by Kitty Stryker called “I Never Called It Rape: Addressing Abuse In BDSM Communities.” Following that, Kitty Stryker and Maggie Mayhem founded the Consent Culture Project, and doing events and organizing to raise awareness about of the issue—even getting covered in Salon. Others, like Maymay, have also been doing a lot of important work on this issue for quite a while. All these efforts were joined in 2012 by a group of young queers who organized to call out predators online; we’ll catch up with that part of the story in part III.

http://goodvibesblog.com/i-never-called-it-rape-addressing-abuse-in-bdsm-communities/

[riqster]

197. Thence the classes.

As an abuse survivor, I feel it important to give others the tools to avoid abuse, from either side of the Power Exchange.

Also, my community polices aggressively, including checking party attendees against SO databases and excluding those with active records; in addition, there are periodic leadership meetings where one topic is disruptive, predatory and harmful people. We exclude them as a community.

I think your article is a wake-up call to anyone who takes a laissez Faire attitude towards activities that should be, and indeed must be, SSC.

[eridani]

213. In major population centers, hotlines are often available

--for people to call if they suspect that their abuser is excusing himself/herself by calling it BDSM.

[riqster]

217. True, and thank you for letting people know.

[Prophet 451]

204. Well, hope it works out for you

Simple rule I have: As long as it's confined to consenting adult humans and/or inanimate objects, what someone does in the bedroom is none of my business. But I wish you well and hope your path brings you happiness.

[steve2470]

212. a tad OT here...

in SL, people can do BDSMy things. I'm not into BDSM but I've met many who are. Granted, it's not real life and, from what I've heard, not decent virtual roleplay, but anyway....about as safe as it gets for dipping a toe in the water.

[brooklynite]

214. But that's the entire point of many of these threads...

...it is essentially fantasy but according to a number of voices THAT'S NOT ACCEPTABLE EITHER.

[steve2470]

215. as long as people are not being abused or exploited, I'm cool nt

[riqster]

218. Wish others were equally open-minded.

[steve2470]

219. it is a shame

People are incredibly diverse. To expect everyone to fit into strictly vanilla molds is....unrealistic, to put it kindly.

[riqster]

220. Too be less kind, it's blinkered, Philistine pig-ignorance;

(Stolen from Monty Python's Architect sketch.)

It is amazing to me how, regardless of the social setting, certain humans act like friggin' fundy Church Ladies.

And by the bye, said CLs also exist in the alternative sex community. Gossip, judgemental crap, backbiting, etcetera.

Live and let live is a great idea. Too few of us human types practice it.

[steve2470]

221. I admit to being limited in this area at times but...

at least I try to be aware and practice acceptance. It's well worth it, imho, long term, both for self and humanity.

[riqster]

222. Word up. I often fail at it myself.

...but I keep on trying to open my hard old head and heart.

[steve2470]

223. AA gets bashed a lot, but acceptance...

is one of the core principles.

And acceptance is the answer to all my problems today. When I am disturbed, it is because I find some person, place, thing, or situation-some fact of my life -unacceptable to me, and I can find no serenity until I accept that person, place, thing, or situation as being exactly the way it is supposed to be at this moment.

http://anonpress.org/faq/32

Accept what you cannot change, and "what you cannot change" is other people. Only other people can change themselves, if they wish.

Anyway....getting far afield from the OP.

[hifiguy]

232. I can only reply

[sibelian]

224. !!!

"

Access Denied
You have attempted to access the following web page:
http://secondlife.com/whatis/

Access has been blocked because:
Denied URL



The SIBELIAN'S EMPLOYER policy for Internet access has defined that this web page may contain inappropriate or non-business related content.




If you think this page has been wrongly categorised, please contact IT Security.

(Mon-Fri 09:00 to 17:00)

Tel:XXXXXXX or XXXX (Internal Ext. XXXXX or XXXXX )

Email: [e-mail]

"

Hmf!

[steve2470]

225. hmm....bit of an overreaction I'd say, the employer I mean, not you lol nt

[steve2470]

226. ok try this url

http://preview.tinyurl.com/ctywc

[hifiguy]

227. I don't get it at all, but one of my first rules of life

is that what consenting adults do in private and the reasons they do it are none of my goddamn business unless they try to force it on someone else. Whatever floats your boat is not for me to judge.

[sibelian]

229. I've no problem with being judged...

... so long as those judging me or what I do actually know what they're talking about. I've no patience with people judging me on things they've made up about me or what I'm doing. The greatest scorn, I've noticed, is piled on the things that people understand least, and usually by a very small number of people. It's a kind of safety valve, I think, so long as there's some guy out there less than them they can feel good about themselves. It's their problem, not mine.

I spent years being followed around in high school by 4 guys who beat me up for being gay. Then I came out and they stopped...

It's your shame they want, conformity. 90% of the time they don't really give a shit about you or what you do, it's all to cast themselves in some kind of role. I know all about roleplay...

There are many enthusiastic people all over DU who make stuff up about all sorts of things all the time. They're no different from the fundamentalist Christians telling their flock that gays are responsible fr tornadoes, they're just more careful, that's all. It's all the same "genre"... The only difference is the book cover...

[hifiguy]

231. The only things I am really judgmental about are fanaticsm/dogmatism and

willful stupidity. I have an interest that many consider odd - see the second part of my sigline - and I just ignore the haters. I got bullied badly as a child and young teen because I was very bright and (as I found out 40+years later) Asperger's, i.e., limited/different social skills. Live and let live has been my lifelong philosophy. I left DU for the last year and a half because I got sick to death of arguing with fanatics who refuse to listen to reason or accept logic and the scientific method. If I wanted to do that I'd go and troll reichwing boards.

Thanks for a thoughtful and interesting response!

[opiate69]

234. OT, but....

Damn, it's good to see you again, hifi!

[hifiguy]

236. I needed a break and went through some very bad times

personally. In the process of rebooting my life right now - I have a plan and am pushing it forwards every day.

And, aww, thank you. Glad to know someone missed me. There are a few who won't be happy to see me back but I have had them on Total Block since long before I left.

[sibelian]

237. Didn't know you'd left!

I left too for a while... still not posting at original frequency.

Sorry to hear that life was treating you bad, hope things get better...

[irisblue]

277. i noticed you were gone and am glad you are back.

[hrmjustin]

235. oh my!

[Humanist_Activist]

241. OK, outside of some light spanking and mild dominance play, not really into BDSM...

but what I really don't understand is the judgmentalism displayed by others for the practice itself. As long as people can legally consent and do legally consent, no harm, no foul.

Generally, when it comes to behaviors, I judge them based on two criteria, whether they harm other, non-consenting people, and whether the behavior interferes with being able to independently function as an adult.

Generally speaking, we should outlaw behaviors that fall under the first criteria, and provide therapy and help for the second one, behaviors that are, generally, pathological.

BDSM seems to fall under neither of these, so, to me, its another variation of sexual practice that many people enjoy. No reason for judgment.

[nomorenomore08]

308. Agree completely. Well stated.

[Tom Ripley]

257. How do you do it with a straight face?

Seriously.
That whole scene seems like too much work. However, who am I to judge how someone gets off? Enjoy yourself and be safe. Seriously.

[whathehell]

264. LOL

Ask the guy up thread calling himself a "practicing master".

I'm guessing he could tell you.

[Skittles]

268. I COULD KICK PRACTICING MASTER ASS

yes indeed

[steve2470]

270. SIGNS UP SKITTLES FOR DOMINATRIX SCHOOL

yes indeed

[Skittles]

281. GETTING MY WHIP

YEE HAW!

[steve2470]

284. you're a good sport ! :) nt

[whathehell]

282. Well, I think you should tell him that..

Maybe he'll challenge you to an ass kicking contest, and we can all have fun.

[Skittles]

291. I WILL KICK VOYEUR ASS TOO

YES INDEED

[Marrah_G]

302. Probably

I am a "practicing submissive" and I can also educate people on the topic.

[whathehell]

307. Thanks for sharing..

but I'm happy to tell you I won't be needing your services.

[TIMETOCHANGE]

278. It's easy when the rewards are big, to keep a straight face.

One of the fun dirty secrets of BDSM is that young and very attractive women, ordinarily out of my league, swoon to me when I have my fun with them in the BDSM scene. All you have to be is an articulate, semi-cultured, alpha male type and its pretty easy. Plus BDSM is more than just getting off, it's an experience. You're either into it or your not. And for those who aren't into it, you have my sympathies.

[whathehell]

283. Lol.."And for those of you who aren't into it, you have my sympathies".

Last edited Thu Jul 31, 2014, 04:58 PM - Edit history (1)

And for those of you who are, you definitely have ours.

[TIMETOCHANGE]

292. Feel free.

At 10:00 p.m. tonight this 30 year old will be enjoying the company of a 21 year old half puerto rican red head with a size two waist. So have all the sympathy you want. After 50 Shades makes it theater's debut, Craigslist will be some good hunting grounds. God bless that poorly written collection of words that is a total yawn fest and barely achieves a Disney's PG rating in the BDSM world.

[whathehell]

293. Gee, if you were a quality guy, you might actually be able to get that

without having to visit the Sick Room, but then again, you did say that

young, pretty girls were "out of your league", LOL.

Of course if you had any substance, you wouldn't be seeking

strictly surface attributes in a woman, anyway....Love the Craigslist

"hunting grounds" comment..It fits your superficial, predator mentality

like a glove.

[sibelian]

294. Depends on how serious the scene is.

I have for sure played with some people who I could not take seriously.

[hexola]

273. Pit Bulls are misjudged too...nt

[eridani]

276. Especially at the Olive Garden! n/t

[WinkyDink]

280. While breast-feeding!

[Earth_First]

304. CACAO!

[Shankapotomus]

311. Just curious

Are you suggesting that monopolizing the discussion to exclude critics would make for a better discussion? Since critics would be less likely to practice BDSM.

Aa, never mind. I think you only mean the initial research. Fair enough.