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xchrom

(108,903 posts)
Tue Jul 29, 2014, 06:16 AM Jul 2014

What Recovery? You Probably Became Poorer In the Last 10 Years

http://www.alternet.org/economy/what-recovery-you-probably-became-poorer-last-10-years



You sense it when you look at your retirement account. You feel it when the bills come in. According to new research supported by the Russell Sage Foundation, your instinct is right: you are very likely getting poorer.

For the study, researchers gathered information on families in the middle of the wealth distribution continuum. What they found is that in 2003, the inflation-adjusted net worth for the typical household was $87,992. Fast-forward 10 years: that figure is down to a mere $56,335.

Ordinary Americans got 36 percent poorer in just a decade.

The Great Recession and the bursting of the housing bubble did their damage, but a long list of additional factors have helped funnel money out of the hands of regular Americans and into the pockets of the rich, including deregulation, high unemployment and job insecurity, the shareholder value trend in which corporations focus on manipulating stock prices while throwing workers under the bus, the reduced influence of unions, the shredding of the social safety net, privatization, and tax structures which favor the rich.

And once the inequality train leaves the station, it only gathers speed until something stops it. As Thomas Piketty has recently emphasized, the rich get richer faster than you and me because of the rate of return on their wealth.
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What Recovery? You Probably Became Poorer In the Last 10 Years (Original Post) xchrom Jul 2014 OP
k&r for the truth, however depressing it may be. n/t Laelth Jul 2014 #1
Seems about right to me - LiberalElite Jul 2014 #2
Probably? More like most definitely! hobbit709 Jul 2014 #3
Kami Sama knows.... yuiyoshida Jul 2014 #4
Quantitative Easing PeoViejo Jul 2014 #5
That's true to some extent, but I don't think the creation is the driver of most of this drop. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jul 2014 #26
Posted to for later reading ... 1StrongBlackMan Jul 2014 #6
I'd like to see if you change your mind after reading. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jul 2014 #28
I still haven't read the article yet; but, ... 1StrongBlackMan Jul 2014 #30
I'm sure you're right that housing is a large part of the drop. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jul 2014 #31
not all misleading noiretextatique Jul 2014 #44
Retired workers Thespian2 Jul 2014 #7
The 'cost of living adjustments' are based on a fiction Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jul 2014 #29
K & R ctsnowman Jul 2014 #8
Net worth? Compared to prime housing boom/bubble? whatthehey Jul 2014 #9
Are we adding families, especially poor ones? AngryAmish Jul 2014 #10
I think immigration is part of it hfojvt Jul 2014 #15
Or maybe it's the aging population..... llmart Jul 2014 #56
This has clearly been the agenda of the elite, and they have been wildly successful. nt stillwaiting Jul 2014 #11
Sorry, I KNOW that I did NOT hfojvt Jul 2014 #12
perhaps you should provide links for your numbers nt xchrom Jul 2014 #20
other people can google census of wealth hfojvt Jul 2014 #22
It is always hard to look at a barrage of statistics and squeeze one story out of them bhikkhu Jul 2014 #21
for me, income is directly related to net worth hfojvt Jul 2014 #23
income - expenses noiretextatique Jul 2014 #46
and "many is a word that only leaves me guessing" hfojvt Jul 2014 #47
JUST TODAY I had to blow away an IRA of mine to pay the rent this coming month! cascadiance Jul 2014 #70
Most people spend what they earn, then have zero net worth bhikkhu Jul 2014 #57
it is not always a necessity to spend what you earn hfojvt Jul 2014 #67
not blowing all my money on tattoos has a familiar ring Autumn Jul 2014 #52
That's for sure. Autumn Jul 2014 #13
K&R DeSwiss Jul 2014 #14
A better plan? nt clarice Jul 2014 #27
First marions ghost Jul 2014 #33
Not perfect, but I haven't seen anything better. nt clarice Jul 2014 #34
And you think that marions ghost Jul 2014 #35
Speaking of a Vampiric economic system... clarice Jul 2014 #36
You mean like in Sweden? Kingofalldems Jul 2014 #39
Yes, like in Sweden.... clarice Jul 2014 #40
I will continue to respond. Kingofalldems Jul 2014 #41
You can't reason with the "I got mine" crowd... marions ghost Jul 2014 #50
I see that, how pathetic to see on DU. Rex Jul 2014 #62
We need to know they're out there tho... marions ghost Jul 2014 #65
That "fiscally rightish" thing just isn't. Enthusiast Jul 2014 #73
Ok. nt clarice Jul 2014 #77
Example? marions ghost Jul 2014 #48
What socialism? Name names. Enthusiast Jul 2014 #74
BTW....yes, I have become very successful... clarice Jul 2014 #37
Who asked you to apologize? Kingofalldems Jul 2014 #42
Back on ignore for you.nt clarice Jul 2014 #43
Is it capitalism? raouldukelives Jul 2014 #58
This ^ ^ ^ Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin Jul 2014 #61
Good point marions ghost Jul 2014 #63
True. Enthusiast Jul 2014 #75
Yes. n/t DeSwiss Jul 2014 #59
I'm lucky.... Adrahil Jul 2014 #16
Since Reagan, all presidents are corporatist, and most of Congress too...... dmosh42 Jul 2014 #17
+1 Enthusiast Jul 2014 #76
I'M back to making good money, but i'll never recover financially from the 5 yrs of KG Jul 2014 #18
I'm glad to hear that your situation has improved. Good on ya mate.nt clarice Jul 2014 #38
So you are in Australia? marions ghost Jul 2014 #49
No....I just like that expression. lol. I'm in Texas. nt clarice Jul 2014 #78
Yeah edhopper Jul 2014 #19
Good one. nt elias49 Jul 2014 #25
Yup bigwillq Jul 2014 #24
It's worse than that n2doc Jul 2014 #32
LOL conservaphobe Jul 2014 #45
Lol indeed. progressoid Jul 2014 #54
Probably? n/t Paper Roses Jul 2014 #51
Probably? progressoid Jul 2014 #53
COSTLY trade agreements. grahamhgreen Jul 2014 #55
If you believe our economy is recovering.... sendero Jul 2014 #60
Well if we lived in a system of regulations and oversight, it would be capitalism. Rex Jul 2014 #64
K & R historylovr Jul 2014 #66
K&R.... daleanime Jul 2014 #68
The 1% is doing just fine, thank you very much. blkmusclmachine Jul 2014 #69
Precisely Sherman A1 Jul 2014 #72
Lynn Sturat Parramore (the author) almost had it... ReRe Jul 2014 #71
 

PeoViejo

(2,178 posts)
5. Quantitative Easing
Tue Jul 29, 2014, 07:37 AM
Jul 2014

The Fed creating Money out of thin air dilutes the purchasing power of everyone's Money. That money you were saving for retirement is worth about a third of what it was prior to the Recession, based on projected M3 figures. (Money in circulation) M3 isn't published anymore because the Fed doesn't want you to see how we have all been screwed.

As far as Rate of Return goes: What Rate of Return?

Erich Bloodaxe BSN

(14,733 posts)
26. That's true to some extent, but I don't think the creation is the driver of most of this drop.
Tue Jul 29, 2014, 10:53 AM
Jul 2014

We've seen how the policies used by the administration have resulted in '93%' of the recovery going to the top 1%.

Artificially low interest lending rates for banks are probably more to blame than the actual creation of money to allow them to occur. The money created out of thin air actually has to go into circulation to have any effect on purchasing power. The Fed could make that $20trillion dollar platinum coin without seriously affecting purchasing power, because it could never be 'spent'. It wouldn't go into circulation. But keep letting banks 'borrow' money from the government at essentially 0% interest, and you're pulling money from everyone and handing it over to the 1%.

Erich Bloodaxe BSN

(14,733 posts)
28. I'd like to see if you change your mind after reading.
Tue Jul 29, 2014, 10:59 AM
Jul 2014

Certainly everything I've seen anecdotally agrees with the results of the studies discussed.

There will obviously be exceptions, people who have gotten better off, but there have been multiple studies even beyond these that show that net worth has dropped and not recovered for most people since the recession started. Especially in minority populations, who often lost a generation or more of gains. Before the recession, I'd read that the net worth of minority households was as low as 1/10th that of white households on average, but after, had dropped to 1/20th.

Poverty rates are up, 1/3 of Americans are being hounded by debt collection agencies. The recovery was for the rich, not the rest.

 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
30. I still haven't read the article yet; but, ...
Tue Jul 29, 2014, 11:10 AM
Jul 2014

I suspect the drop is largely attributable to the "wealth" that was held in housing. This figure is misleading, as a house is/was never an investment; it has always been an expense, until paid off, and maybe, an appreciating asset.

The mentality that a house is an "investment" was the marketing tool that ultimately led to the crashing of the economy, as people drew down the equity in order to make up for 30+ years of stagnant wages.

Erich Bloodaxe BSN

(14,733 posts)
31. I'm sure you're right that housing is a large part of the drop.
Tue Jul 29, 2014, 11:21 AM
Jul 2014

Personally, I've always treated a house as a means of minimizing ongoing recurring expenses. In the decade I've lived in my house, the monthly rental costs of a tiny half-duplex rental in town has gone from being about 80% of my mortgage payments to more than 160% of my mortgage payments. So people renting locally are now paying $300 more a month to live in a space 1/5th as big. Even when you factor in property taxes and repair work, I can lose money on selling my house and end up having paid far less to live in a much larger space than folks who are stuck renting. The 'investment' is in paying less all along for housing. Taking out loans against any built up equity is a scam.

noiretextatique

(27,275 posts)
44. not all misleading
Tue Jul 29, 2014, 03:48 PM
Jul 2014

Just the reality for most people. Neocons, D or R, have mostly enriched the haves and mostly fucked the have nots. And the trend continues.

Thespian2

(2,741 posts)
7. Retired workers
Tue Jul 29, 2014, 08:17 AM
Jul 2014

seem to be getting poorer faster than the speed of light. I have been retired for some time. When my wife died in 2010, I lost most of her Social Security. Over time, prices have continued to increase. Except for work I have to do, my income has been relatively stagnate. I am fortunately enough to be able to sink into poverty slowly, but the American administration has made sure that I will be below the poverty line very soon. USA, number one in not caring for its citizens.

Erich Bloodaxe BSN

(14,733 posts)
29. The 'cost of living adjustments' are based on a fiction
Tue Jul 29, 2014, 11:00 AM
Jul 2014

that lags behind the real increases in expenses.

hfojvt

(37,573 posts)
15. I think immigration is part of it
Tue Jul 29, 2014, 08:41 AM
Jul 2014

In 2002, white non hispanic households were 74% of all households. By 2011 that was down to 69.2%.

And those WNH households were generally wealthier, with only 20.5% having less than $5,000 in net worth, compared to 27.2% of all households and with 32% having over $250,000 compared to just 26.1% of all households.

llmart

(15,527 posts)
56. Or maybe it's the aging population.....
Tue Jul 29, 2014, 07:48 PM
Jul 2014

Remember - the baby boomers who lost full time jobs during the recession (depression more like it) will probably never find a full time job with benefits again due to their age.

Also, we are fast becoming if we're not already there, a part time economy where people are working two or more part time jobs, none with benefits.

hfojvt

(37,573 posts)
12. Sorry, I KNOW that I did NOT
Tue Jul 29, 2014, 08:34 AM
Jul 2014

And it could just be me, the oddball exception to the trend.

Funny though, because I spent much of that decade in the bottom quintile for income. The last three years, I have perhaps risen to the 37th percentile for income, but that still leaves over 60% of households making more money than I do.

Let me look at two censuses of wealth that I have seen and saved to my computer, for 2002 and 2011. Not quite the same years, but things were better in 2011 than they were in 2009 on the job front and they have only gotten better since then.

So - 110 million households in 2002

16.9% with zero or negative net worth
9.3% with less than $5,000

11.1% with over $250,000 (not including the next group)
8.5% with over $500,000

118.7 million households in 2011

18.1% with zero or negative
9.1% with less than $5,000

so the bottom has increased by 1%

12.6% with over $250,000
13.5% with over $500,000

so the top has increased by 6.5%

some of that perhaps because of inflation as $250,000 in 2011 was only equivalent of $200,000 in 2002, or going the other way $250,000 in 2002 is equivalent to $312,000 in 2011.

Looking at the middle, in 2002 12.9% had over 50K but less than 100, and 20.3% had between $100,000 and $250,000

In 2011, 10.4% had over 50K and 17.9% had between 100 and 250.

So there's quite a bit of slippage there, especially if you take inflation into account. A loss of 4.9%. But that loss is stil less than the 6.5% who moved into the top two groups.

And for the lower middle groups
5-10 - 4.8% to 4.8%
10-25 - 7.6% to 6.6%
25-50 - 8.5% to 6.9%

So, except for the growth at the top (the top 26% though and not so much the top 0.01% some people like to talk about) I am seeing slippage from 2002 to 2011.

Mind-boggling to me, because since 2002, I have only worked full time 5 years out of the 12, and I have added about $70,000 to my net worth.

I must be one of the few who is not blowing all my money on tattoos

bhikkhu

(10,711 posts)
21. It is always hard to look at a barrage of statistics and squeeze one story out of them
Tue Jul 29, 2014, 10:28 AM
Jul 2014

Especially when the argument begins by conflating income and net worth. The two are related, but not very directly. My income has been relatively stable over the years - a little lower during the recession, a good amount higher now - always varying a bit above or below the actual cost of living. My net worth, on the other hand, has varied wildly. Owning a house and a property, I was worth a bundle before the recession. Then I was worth significantly less than nothing for 4 years or so. Now its trending up. All it means to me is that perhaps I will be able to retire someday without relying solely on Social Security. Net worth isn't the best way to compare most people - income is a much better measure.

I never had enough money for tattoes anyway...

hfojvt

(37,573 posts)
23. for me, income is directly related to net worth
Tue Jul 29, 2014, 10:39 AM
Jul 2014

If I make $15,000 a year, then I can save a certain amount of money.

If I make $60,000 a year, then I can save a lot more.

Since going from part-time to full time work in September 2011, I have added a lot to my net worth.

And it works for other people too.

People in the lowest quintile - 31% of them have negative net worth and only 4.2% have over $500,000.

For those in the highest quintile only 8% have negative net worth whereas 33.8% of them have over $500,000.

If somebody who makes less than 60% of Americans can add to his net worth, then why can't people who make more money?

noiretextatique

(27,275 posts)
46. income - expenses
Tue Jul 29, 2014, 03:57 PM
Jul 2014

+assets- liability equals net worth. If you lost as asset, e.g., a house or a 401k, which many people have in the past ten years, that would negatively impact net worth. Your simplistic analysis makes me doubt you have the finance and economic knowledge you claim.

hfojvt

(37,573 posts)
47. and "many is a word that only leaves me guessing"
Tue Jul 29, 2014, 04:36 PM
Jul 2014

"guessing about a thing, I really ought to know"

How many people lost an asset over the past ten years? And why should that asset loss be larger than the simple expedient of saving $5,000 a year over ten years?

And I didn't think the discussion was supposed to be about my finance and economic knowledge.

 

cascadiance

(19,537 posts)
70. JUST TODAY I had to blow away an IRA of mine to pay the rent this coming month!
Wed Jul 30, 2014, 01:00 AM
Jul 2014

Had been trying to avoid that, but the moment finally came after the savings and every other source of money went down the toilet.

bhikkhu

(10,711 posts)
57. Most people spend what they earn, then have zero net worth
Tue Jul 29, 2014, 08:23 PM
Jul 2014

That's generally true for all but the top 5% or so. The great majority of Americans aren't very good at on saving money, for better or worse.

There are two things that greatly affect the net worth picture, then. First is use of credit cards, which commonly tip people down into negative net worth. I don't think its that big of a deal necessarily; if you can make the payment, why not enjoy the use of money that you haven't earned yet? Credit can get you into trouble if your income isn't secure, but a little moderation and its no big deal. Adults are expected to be able to do the math and figure those things out, and for the most part they do ok.

The second thing is property. If you rent, you're still likely to have a negative net worth - spending what you earn and having some credit debt. If you buy a house, depending on what you owe and how the values change, then you probably wind up with a positive net worth. It doesn't change a person's lifestyle especially, and the big fluctuations over the past few years (typically from positive to negative and back to positive) are mostly just changes on paper. I was wealthy when my house was worth $200k, then I was in the hole when it went down to $70k, and now I'm back in positive territory. It made no difference; income is what makes a difference.

In the long term, a positive net worth makes it easier to think about retiring someday, but I could easily die of something or other before that happens. In the meantime, life with a positive net worth is the same as life with a negative net worth - I spend what I earn, by necessity, same as most everybody else.

hfojvt

(37,573 posts)
67. it is not always a necessity to spend what you earn
Tue Jul 29, 2014, 11:33 PM
Jul 2014

A person may be better off if they do spend what they earn, but it seems kinda absurd to CHOOSE to spend all that you earn and then to cry "I don't have any wealth".

There may be some in the bottom 30%, who knows how many, who cannot live decently without spending all that they earn, for a variety of reasons.

As for credit. The reason to NOT enjoy the money that you haven't already earned, is because you pay far too much in interest charges by doing so, and ultimately are worse off. At least that is why I never do it.

marions ghost

(19,841 posts)
35. And you think that
Tue Jul 29, 2014, 02:56 PM
Jul 2014

extreme vampire capitalism is working for America these days?

I imagine it works well for you-- if you can even contend that there's nothing better.

But look around...it's not working for a lot of Americans. It's a failure in many ways at this point.

 

clarice

(5,504 posts)
36. Speaking of a Vampiric economic system...
Tue Jul 29, 2014, 03:10 PM
Jul 2014

Consider Socialism.... a system that sucks out the best parts of people and drains them
until they are dry.

Kingofalldems

(38,408 posts)
39. You mean like in Sweden?
Tue Jul 29, 2014, 03:22 PM
Jul 2014

What do you like about the Democratic party? You seem to tilt to the republican side. And not just a little bit either, IMO. RW talking points on a regular basis.

 

clarice

(5,504 posts)
40. Yes, like in Sweden....
Tue Jul 29, 2014, 03:38 PM
Jul 2014

Please do me a favor.....can you hold all of the "you might be a Republican" rhetoric?
It's very unbecoming. Now, to your points,


1. I have never voted for a Repub in my life.
2. I consider myself socially liberal, and fiscally moderate/rightish
3. What I like about the Democratic Party
A. inclusiveness
B. slanted toward working folks (or used to be)
C. Absence of Religious craziness (for the most part)
D. Woman's right to choose

As for right wing talking points, I guess that you mean anyone who doesn't agree with your world view.
I took you off of ignore...please be nice.

marions ghost

(19,841 posts)
50. You can't reason with the "I got mine" crowd...
Tue Jul 29, 2014, 05:32 PM
Jul 2014

they really don't want to see the ugly truth about the ruthless exploitative brand of capitalism practiced in America....

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
62. I see that, how pathetic to see on DU.
Tue Jul 29, 2014, 09:47 PM
Jul 2014

Some people only care about themselves and are part of the problem.

marions ghost

(19,841 posts)
65. We need to know they're out there tho...
Tue Jul 29, 2014, 10:00 PM
Jul 2014

--working against us while posing as "socially liberal." With friends like that, who needs enemies?

Enthusiast

(50,983 posts)
73. That "fiscally rightish" thing just isn't.
Wed Jul 30, 2014, 05:34 AM
Jul 2014

The deficit soared because of Bush's unnecessary wars and huge tax cuts for the wealthy. But they prop up the illusion and insist it is true. In reality those fiscal moderates are entirely responsible for this crushing debt.

Sad to read it on DU.

marions ghost

(19,841 posts)
48. Example?
Tue Jul 29, 2014, 05:25 PM
Jul 2014

Where is this happening? That bad "socialist" place (I presume we're not talking about ye olde communism).

You don't see that the American economic system is working only for the few? Sucking the best parts of people and draining them dry? Honestly you DON'T see this?

Enthusiast

(50,983 posts)
74. What socialism? Name names.
Wed Jul 30, 2014, 05:37 AM
Jul 2014

Since 2000 we have been under a system that isn't exactly your father's capitalism. Some have described it as disaster capitalism, an apt description.

 

clarice

(5,504 posts)
37. BTW....yes, I have become very successful...
Tue Jul 29, 2014, 03:13 PM
Jul 2014

and I don't apologize for it. It took a lot of hard work and sacrifice.

raouldukelives

(5,178 posts)
58. Is it capitalism?
Tue Jul 29, 2014, 08:38 PM
Jul 2014

Feels more like corporate socialism to me. I think capitalism could be worth a shot if we wanted to try it.

 

Adrahil

(13,340 posts)
16. I'm lucky....
Tue Jul 29, 2014, 10:00 AM
Jul 2014

Both myself and my wife have done much better over the last 10 years, but it's largely because we've come into the maturity of our careers. I've moved into a management position, and my wife got a tenure track position, made tenure and promotion to Associate Professor. All that naturally lead to some significant gains, but for most people, I don't see that happening. Middle class skilled and semi-skilled jobs are being replaced by unskilled service jobs. It's a major economic disaster.

dmosh42

(2,217 posts)
17. Since Reagan, all presidents are corporatist, and most of Congress too......
Tue Jul 29, 2014, 10:07 AM
Jul 2014

Clinton did a little adjustments for tax fairness, which Bush quickly discarded. But all allowed trade imbalances to grow, especially pitting our labor against slave labor or close to it in third world nations.

KG

(28,749 posts)
18. I'M back to making good money, but i'll never recover financially from the 5 yrs of
Tue Jul 29, 2014, 10:10 AM
Jul 2014

underemployment.

edhopper

(33,445 posts)
19. Yeah
Tue Jul 29, 2014, 10:13 AM
Jul 2014

100 people in a room, one has $999,901 the other 99 each have $1.
Their average worth is $10,000.
A Year later that one person has $1,999,901 and the rest still have $1.
Oh look, their average worth is has doubled!

sendero

(28,552 posts)
60. If you believe our economy is recovering....
Tue Jul 29, 2014, 09:33 PM
Jul 2014

.... you are delusional or retarded. Sorry, but that is a FACT.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
64. Well if we lived in a system of regulations and oversight, it would be capitalism.
Tue Jul 29, 2014, 09:54 PM
Jul 2014

Sadly, we don't live in any kind of economic system that resembles classical capitalism. The 1% turned it into a plutocracy and now have local criers to do their bidding, they don't even have to work anymore! Just sit back and watch their machine of destruction do their will.

IOW, back in the day a robber baron might have to get his hands dirty in his own 'success'...now they can just sit back and pay a law firm to do it for them! Or 10 law firms. Whatever it takes to stay out of court and impossibly rich.

ReRe

(10,597 posts)
71. Lynn Sturat Parramore (the author) almost had it...
Wed Jul 30, 2014, 03:00 AM
Jul 2014

... she should have left the word "Probably" out of the title.

So much for "family values." No telling how many divorces the "pooring-down" of America has caused over the last 20-30 years. I used to blame my husband for being a lousy provider. He asked me once "How do people who start out with nothing end up with something? I almost beaned him. But now, I see that no matter what he did, or what anyone did, to try and keep up, it was predestined by something beyond our control.

And it's so ironic that Ronald Reagan asked that immortal question: "Are you better off than you were 4 years ago?"

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