General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsIsrael is flattening neighborhoods
has bombed the power station, petrol facilities, hospitals, schools.
When will the West stop this land grab and genocide?
NightWatcher
(39,343 posts)1. Too much guilt from the 1940's still lingering.
2. Too many "religious" people here think we must support Israel because Revelations tells them Jesus is from Israel and end times (or something like that, they aren't really sure).
3. Too much fear of AIPAC and other groups/supporters.
Skidmore
(37,364 posts)woodsprite
(11,910 posts)defacto7
(13,485 posts)Save us all from the Dominionists in our government. They want war, they want to "bring on" the second coming of Christ. Since the end times haven't come in the 2000 years Christianity has expected it, the Dominionists will make one themselves. That's what Bush Jr. pushed.
mylye2222
(2,992 posts)will stay standing but ruins on the ground.
#PrayForGaza.
malaise
(268,885 posts)I'm an atheist - we don't kill for gawds.
Skidmore
(37,364 posts)Razing Gaza allows them to come in and build from the ground while displacing the Palestinean survivors. I can honestly say that Israel has lost every last shred of respect I had remaining for them. This is the most reprehensible and immoral action we have seen in a while. It is right up there with some of the ugliest acts of genocide that have occurred in my lifetime, deserving of condemnation and sanctions by the world community.
malaise
(268,885 posts)Israel is a rogue state - a terrorist state.
Israel AND the USA are terrorist states.
Bettie
(16,086 posts)That they took it because 'they had to' in order to 'protect themselves'.
How does anyone expect displaced people who have had everything stolen from them to react? Do they really expect them to go silently away with a smile and a wave, thanking those who destroyed their families and lives?
treestar
(82,383 posts)It's been like that the whole time. They should have made a deal with the Palestinians in 1948. I've debated with some who said well they are Arabs and the surrounding countries should have taken them. It is like they really did expect to just take the land and have the people there just smile and say, "sure."
Bettie
(16,086 posts)All I ever hear is "This is Israeli land" and the other countries in the region wanted them gone.
Well, if some people moved into my state and claimed land my friends, neighbors, and relatives had worked and lived on for centuries, I certainly wouldn't welcome them with open arms!
Of course, if the Palestinians were fighting against a government not supported by the US Government, they'd be 'Freedom Fighters", since our government supports Israel, they are 'terrorists'. In reality, they are victims, refugees.
LiberalArkie
(15,708 posts)the same land in Palestine for over 5000 years. Now who was there first?
Bettie
(16,086 posts)The whole thing is just so sad.
dballance
(5,756 posts)That's based on documents that are thousands of years old and mythological in nature.
The courts in the US deny claims by Native Americans to their original homelands at every turn. The courts say they can't "take" those lands from the people who occupy them now. That's a lot less time than the the centuries the Palestinians lived in the lands that are now Israel.
The far right in Israel will not stop their genocide of the Palestinians until they have every square inch of land. They have proven this. It is clearly a pattern.
Skidmore
(37,364 posts)sense of divine destiny feulling this? How do you protect yourself without having a standing army and from within a prison? The myth that Israel is a benign and beloved state is such a cynical fraud.
Bettie
(16,086 posts)Even some of my very liberal friends turn a blind eye to the death and destruction.
It is good to see that public opinion is turning, albeit slowly.
awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)especially since we are paying for the bombs.
snooper2
(30,151 posts)Then at least it would be US weapons vs US weapons, little more fair fight
Dragonfli
(10,622 posts)woo me with science
(32,139 posts)Harry Reid: Israel may need more aid.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014857647
Skidmore
(37,364 posts)sorry self and asked him to explain why this nation should expend one more dollar to underwrite the massacre of civilians in Gaza and let him know that I objected to any such use of US money. My rep and senator will hear from me too.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)L0oniX
(31,493 posts)Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)malaise
(268,885 posts)love fest
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Like the benign lovefest of candy-dispensing Qassam rockets, warm hugs from suicide bombers and puppy distribution tunnels.
And while you bellyache about "genocide" Israel was prepared to enter into a two-state solution with defined borders for both parties which Arafat rejected to President Clinton's bewilderment. Hamas, meanwhile, has the stated goal of the destruction of Israel and the elimination of Jews as a people.
Yours is a very selective morality.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)They need to step up to the plate and pay for it.
countryjake
(8,554 posts)http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Hamas-Abbass-PLO-announce-reconciliation-agreement-350195#!
Hamas and Fatah announced Wednesday that they have reached a historic agreement to end their differences and form a Palestinian unity government.
The announcement came one day after a senior PLO delegation arrived in the Gaza Strip for talks with Hamas leaders on ways of ending the Hamas-Fatah dispute and achieving national reconciliation...
The latest agreement, which was signed at the home of Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh in the Shati refugee camp in the Gaza Strip, states that the two sides would work toward implementing previous accords reached in Qatar and Egypt.
It calls for the establishment of a Palestinian unity government within five weeks. Six months later, the Palestinians would hold long overdue presidential and parliamentary elections.
Gaza and Israel: The Road to War, Paved by the West
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/18/opinion/gaza-and-israel-the-road-to-war-paved-by-the-west.html
Israel immediately sought to undermine the reconciliation agreement by preventing Hamas leaders and Gaza residents from obtaining the two most essential benefits of the deal: the payment of salaries to 43,000 civil servants who worked for the Hamas government and continue to administer Gaza under the new one, and the easing of the suffocating border closures imposed by Israel and Egypt that bar most Gazans passage to the outside world.
Yet, in many ways, the reconciliation government could have served Israels interests. It offered Hamass political adversaries a foothold in Gaza; it was formed without a single Hamas member; it retained the same Ramallah-based prime minister, deputy prime ministers, finance minister and foreign minister; and, most important, it pledged to comply with the three conditions for Western aid long demanded by America and its European allies: nonviolence, adherence to past agreements and recognition of Israel.
Please note that final line, which I've bolded for you.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)And despite the bolded passage Hamas still stockpiled (and launched) tens of thousands rockets and dug tunnels to launch additional attacks on Israel.
And while you're shedding tears for the poor beleaguered Hamas, the Egyptians and Saudis are giving Israel back-channel support to quash the allies of Hezbollah as a way to check Iranian influence in the region. Should Israel put its faith in a bunch of savage thugs who have never kept an agreement or should they work with the regional powers that can actually provide them greater recognition and the accompanying security?
Aerows
(39,961 posts)and three year olds are such thugs they scare the shit out of Israel. Good to know.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Like the ones having their throats slit.
All this moral indignation about dead children. Those howling should have been cheering the removal of Saddam who had a history of gassing entire villages and when he wasn't gassing he was still leaving behind mass graves. Assuming the Israelis are acting with malice rather than the more likely fact these are "collateral" deaths, they look like pikers compared to Saddam.
But everyone was, "Nothing to see here. Not our business." Now suddenly it's a tragedy that has to be addressed now! The world can't wait! And, no, I'm not endorsing the Iraq war; just noting the flagrant hypocrisy.
And not just the Middle East. People are being slaughtered across the globe since time immemorial with non-combatants bearing the brunt. At least Israel recognizes it has a PR interest to avoid civilians casualties where others are actively seeking to kill non-combatants.
But Hamas has an interest exaggerating and encouraging its own civilian casualties.
Meanwhile, the President himself probably has a similar body count as a percentage of collateral deaths vs. legitimate targets with drone strikes. Where's the chorus demanding impeachment and war crimes prosecution?
"But if we let the GOP impeach Obama that could damage our efforts to secure employer-paid birth control."
And, no, this is not a call for the President's impeachment; just noting the flagrant hypocrisy -- again.
Orrex
(63,199 posts)countryjake
(8,554 posts)made by Hamas such as recognizing Israel and stepping out of their present Gazan leadership position and most importantly, committing to a path of non-violence, which was all agreed to by both Fatah and Hamas on April 23, and signed, sealed, and delivered by the Palestinian Liberation Organization on June 2nd.... none of those humongous positive steps forward by the elected leaders of Palestine were enough to convince the Israeli government that it might finally be time to participate in one-on-one negotiations that could end decades of a harsh oppression?
It's been an insane oppression from which the likes of Hamas had sprung; just look at who supported that bunch back in the early days of Hamas' formation and examine exactly why Israel supported them. Asking Israel to speak directly with any sort of government democratically elected by Palestinians themselves is never to be part of the equation in seeking a lasting peace between Israel and Palestine, that's what Binyamin Netanyahu and his cronies insist. It seems to me that all of those uncompromising right-wingers are leading Israel into a quagmire that can only make living there even more dangerous than it ever has been before.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/07/15/world/middleeast/toll-israel-gaza-conflict.html?_r=1
Latest totals updated July 29
3,289 targets in Gaza struck by Israel
1,221 Palestinian deaths
2,612 rockets launched at Israel from Gaza
56 Israeli deaths
When I read those tallies every day and watch the toll on civilians climb higher and higher, it becomes harder and harder to distinguish who the terrorists and real criminals might be.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)I wonder how many of those currently putting on airs of moral indignation would be cheering the sight of every Israeli being slaughtered.
countryjake
(8,554 posts)Or were you referring to something else?
So you've no comment on the pact that Gazan leadership, the ever "fearsome" Hamas, signed this spring, agreeing to recognize the state of Israel, promising to adhere to non-violence, and handing-over the reins of power in Gaza to the Palestinian Authority president, Mahmoud Abbas?
You know, that pesky agreement announced mere weeks before Binyamin Netanyahu's IDF began the raids within the West Bank?
eridani
(51,907 posts)Why should we?
http://rinf.com/alt-news/war-terrorism/israelis-cheer-whoop-whistle-bombs-rain-palestinians-gaza/
Israelis watch from hilltop being entertained as Palestinians in Gaza are bombed by the IDF, Israeli Defense Force
Its been hard following the horrific Israeli assault on Gaza and then I came across this account from Harriet Sherwood entitled Israelis Gather on Hillsides to Watch and Cheer as Military Drops Bombs on Gaza published in the ICH, Information Clearing House, July20, 2014. It grabbed my attention.
Also in 2009: Israeli's Picnic On Israel/Gaza Border To view Action.
http://item.liveleak.com/2/view?i=b3d_1231628428&comments=1&use_old_player=1
former9thward
(31,970 posts)You can bold any apologist bs you want.
countryjake
(8,554 posts)for yourself, then get back to me.
Who could have ever guessed that the JPost published "apologist bs"!
eridani
(51,907 posts)Arafat recognises Jewish state and limit to return of refugees
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/jun/19/israel
Yasser Arafat has told an Israeli newspaper that he recognises Israel's right to remain a Jewish state and is, therefore, prepared to accept the return of only a fraction of the Palestinian refugees.
In an interview with Ha'aretz, published yesterday, the Palestinian leader was asked if he understood that "Israel has to keep being a Jewish state"?
"Definitely," he replied.
panader0
(25,816 posts)Fozzledick
(3,860 posts)As Nancy Pelosi says; "Every rocket has a return address".
malaise
(268,885 posts)<snip>
Gaza endured a night of relentless bombardment that brought some of the heaviest pounding since the start of the conflict three weeks ago, in the hours after the Israeli political and military leadership warned of a protracted offensive.
Palestinian officials say more than 110 people have been killed in Gaza in the past 24 hours.
Israeli forces targeted key strategic targets, including the home of the Hamas leader in Gaza, Ismail Haniyeh, and a building housing Hamas-controlled broadcast outlets.
Haniyeh's home was hit by a missile shortly before dawn, causing damage but no injuries. Eleven people were killed in a strike on a house in Bureij refugee camp in Gaza City.
locks
(2,012 posts)they will probably read: "Made in the USA" or "Made in Russia."
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)I don't actually care what Nancy Pelosi said.
The rockets don't come simply because Palestinians are evil. They're in response to other evils.
A cycle of traded evils, passed back and forth between the RWers in both populations. And bolstered by the people on both sides who place all of the blame on one side or the other.
Until the groups in question accept that they're BOTH perpetuating the violence, it won't stop.
malaise
(268,885 posts)Fozzledick
(3,860 posts)Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza, Hamas responded by boasting of a "victory for violence" and started shooting rockets.
MrNJ
(200 posts)That a lot of us here are eager to forget.
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)either in the West Bank or the Gaza Strip. After Hamas won the election Israel completely imprisoned the population in the Gaza Strip. Until Israel ends the occupation, Israel has no right to self defense against either an imprisoned population or an occupied population. Israel is the responsible power and also the illegal occupier.
Palestine doesn't have a real country since Israel controls it illegally. That makes Israel, by definition, the aggressor. Israel can't go to war against a people that it controls and have no country. That's imperial arrogance, illegal, and evil.
See, you seem to think Israel doesn't have to face the consequences of its actions no matter how badly it acts, but for some magical reason, a victim of Israel's bad behavior magically gets turned into the bad guy (and legal cannon fodder) if some people (out of the two million captives) strike back. I'm afraid not: that just gives Israel permission for endless atrocities.
Most of the people Israel is massacring are not responsible for the rockets shot back at Israel. The people that are most responsible are in Israel. They are the ones that provoked the rockets. Israel is massacring innocents for a problem of its own making.
Fozzledick
(3,860 posts)cpwm17
(3,829 posts)BillZBubb
(10,650 posts)Hugabear
(10,340 posts)Please explain how the other post was wrong
Avalux
(35,015 posts)What a horrible, thoughtless response from Nancy.
Fozzledick
(3,860 posts)What an obscenely cynical policy to make excuses for.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)Fozzledick
(3,860 posts)Avalux
(35,015 posts)Horrific and inexcusable words you use.
BlindTiresias
(1,563 posts)Unverified garbage from an apologist. What a surprise.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)atreides1
(16,070 posts)I think that Fozzledick would like to see the complete eradication of the Palestinian people from the borders of Israel!
And that if every man, woman, and child in Gaza were to die...he would justify that by placing the blame on Hamas, as he has done many times already.
But he lacks the courage to come out and say what he means!
kysrsoze
(6,019 posts)malaise
(268,885 posts)And the money keeps rolling in for the war profiteers
Dragonfli
(10,622 posts)It always comes down to follow the money, the rest is just a smoke screen. It is profitable to those that bankroll the politicians, so the politicians do as commanded by those that bankroll them.
I don't think the people or the politics of the region are even a consideration behind closed doors, perhaps I have simply grown too cynical
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)blame Hamas exclusively, or at least enough to disavow themselves from the group.
Crazy shit plan...all to avoid a unity government.
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)I would hate Israelis if I lived in Gaza.
KG
(28,751 posts)Pisces
(5,599 posts)The world is watching and nothing is happening to save the people. Where are the evacuation efforts????
Avalux
(35,015 posts)There is no evacuation because they won't allow it; supplies aren't even getting in.
Larkspur
(12,804 posts)Steal their land and slaughter those that resist and their kith and kin.
malaise
(268,885 posts)exterminate, loot and plunder while claiming to be the civilized of the earth and shroud it all in religious bullshit.
And don't forget to blame the victims and call them barbarians or terrorists if they dare resist.
Tetris_Iguana
(501 posts)The saddest part is that Gazans are without escape from this massacre.
I wish somebody at least had the gall to evacuate them. Having a homeland is important, but staying alive ranks first.
malaise
(268,885 posts)It is sad but why should they leave their homeland.
Tetris_Iguana
(501 posts)But to each their own, I guess.
U4ikLefty
(4,012 posts)Who is the exterminator?
Tetris_Iguana
(501 posts)although Hamas ain't exactly a bowl of peaches, either.
U4ikLefty
(4,012 posts)on edit: I had to correct my spelling or my post would have been completely insignificant.
Tetris_Iguana
(501 posts)Just that they are unsavory to live with, as well, seeing as they are thugs for lack of a better term.
Also, Israel is spelled I-s-r-a-e-l.
U4ikLefty
(4,012 posts)Are they "thugs"?
BTW, I accidentally switched two letters....ho noes!!1!!1
I'd better fix it...thank you teacher.
Tetris_Iguana
(501 posts)and yes they are thugs.
U4ikLefty
(4,012 posts)Have a good night.
2banon
(7,321 posts)I have no words to express my disgust and outrage toward Israeli's govt', the IDF, Likud party, the brainwashed monsters they created in their population and the defenders here of the atrocities perpetrated vis a vis bullshit anti-semitic and "terrorists" memes, paid for by U.S. and EU tax dollars thank you very much.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Ministry spokesman in Gaza Ashraf al-Qidra said that a total of 4,987 homes have been completely destroyed by Israeli shelling and airstrikes in the last 22 days.
26,270 homes, meanwhile, have been partially destroyed, of which 4,136 are no longer suitable for habitation.
The statements come after Israeli authorities gave evacuation orders to more than 400,000 residents of northern Gaza on Monday, including two major neighborhoods in Gaza City.
The United Nations said on Tuesday that 215,000 Gazans had fled their homes amid the bloodiest Israeli assault on the besieged coastal enclave since 2009.
http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=716832
ChairmanAgnostic
(28,017 posts)with GPS locations given to Israel long in advance.
malaise
(268,885 posts)and don't you dare forget to blame the civilians for being in the way
jwirr
(39,215 posts)items in Gaza. They wanted to destroy tunnels. These items are not tunnels.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)Avalux
(35,015 posts)What the Israeli government is doing IS genocide, yet the world watches and remains silent while the US continues to support them. I don't care who they perceive themselves to be according to religious doctrine, or what's happened to them historically - THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR PURPOSEFULLY KILLING INNOCENT PEOPLE.
malaise
(268,885 posts)but watching the slaughter of truth and moral authority is just as bad.
HERVEPA
(6,107 posts)From someone safe behind a computer screen. You might want to check that rhetoric a bit.
malaise
(268,885 posts)People are being slaughtered and their killers are lying.
HERVEPA
(6,107 posts)You are just repeating the same thing all the time, as horrible as what's happening is.
ieoeja
(9,748 posts)Oh. Right.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)But nice try at conflating them.
Response to Comrade Grumpy (Reply #59)
Post removed
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)killing the entire population down to every last man, woman and child ... and nobody would say shit."
Speak for yourself.
U4ikLefty
(4,012 posts)I hope you are proud.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)m-lekktor
(3,675 posts)that is why they can hurl every insult in the book at me for my criticism of Israel and i don't give a fuck.
HERVEPA
(6,107 posts)and doesn't give a shit about their own people.
They know they cannot win the war. War of liberation my ass.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)bigtree
(85,986 posts). . . and those civilian injured in the hospitals they've bombed - amateurs.
BillZBubb
(10,650 posts)Most of the destruction and death they are raining down has nothing to do with directly stopping rocket attacks. It has everything to do with intimidating and battering the Palestinian population.
malaise
(268,885 posts)<snip>
At least 19 Palestinians were killed and about 90 injured early on Wednesday when a UN school sheltering people was hit by shells during a second night of relentless bombardment that followed an Israeli warning of a protracted military campaign.
Gaza health officials said at least 43 people died in intense air strikes and tank shelling of Jabaliya, a neighbourhood of Gaza City. The death toll included the people at the school who had fled their own homes. Bombardment from Israeli gunboats continued without respite for much of the night.
The last two nights have seen the most fierce bombardment in this Gaza offensive. In 23 days more than 1,240 Palestinians, most of them civilians, have been killed. On the Israeli side 53 soldiers and three civilians have been killed.
International pressure for an end to the bloodshed has continued to mount. On Tuesday the British prime minister, David Cameron, added his weight to calls for an unconditional, immediate humanitarian ceasefire.
What were seeing is absolutely heartbreaking in terms of the loss of life everyone wants to see this stopped, he said. Blaming Hamas for triggering the conflict, he added: Hamas must stop attacking Israel with rocket attacks. That is how this started. Its completely unjustified and they need to stop as part of the ceasefire.
--------------------------
Someone should have told David Cameron how this started. His deliberate ignorance on the matter is embarrassing. Fugging LIAR
countryjake
(8,554 posts)and we have complied. Just hearing that on CNN. They're calling it an "emergency re-supply of munitions".
Every drop of this blood is on the hands of my government.
Not in my name.
Skidmore
(37,364 posts)The bombing of the power plant will turn off the power supply to large portions of Gaza for at least a year. Currently, the internet and cellphones have been the way the Palestinians have gotten their stories out to the world. What better way to silence their voices than to take away their means of contacting the outside world?
Bodhi BloodWave
(2,346 posts)I've been pondering for a bit why the power station was targeted since i read about it, now though i want to smack my head against a wall for not realizing the answer thats straight in front of my face as i type considering how obvious it actually might be.
NM_Birder
(1,591 posts)What else do you think is going to happen ?
What is your suggestion ?
GliderGuider
(21,088 posts)This has apparently been Israeli policy since at least 2006.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahiya_doctrine
malaise
(268,885 posts)because deny deny deny is the usual modus operandi