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Uncle Joe

(58,336 posts)
Wed Jul 30, 2014, 12:21 AM Jul 2014

Netanyahu is betraying the victims of the Holocaust.

Last edited Wed Jul 30, 2014, 02:50 PM - Edit history (1)

He hasn't committed a Holocaust yet, but he was turning Gaza into a Warsaw Ghetto and that was before he started committing mass murder; which is what is taking place now.

If Netanyahu were to start a holocaust, I'm convinced some of the more extreme members of the Knesset would support him just from their recorded statements that the mothers of the "*terrorists" should be killed as well, not taking into account that Israel's abusive, anti-humanitarian policies has been the mother of all mothers in creating an environment for "terrorists' to be raised.

On June the 2nd, when Hamas joined Fatah in the West Bank to form a Palestinian unity government; such a deal held the prospect of turning Palestine into a united democracy, this was the straw that broke the camel's back.

Netanyahu's government didn't want the Palestinians united by peace, he does want them united by war as this serves him and his party's political power interests.

*"Terrorists" is also a term used by the Nazis against the Warsaw Ghetto Freedom Fighters.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Never_forget_%28political_phrase%29

From the late 1940s to 2001, the phrase was used to protest genocide. While the main message of 'never forget' is to remember the past so history does not repeat its mistakes, it also arguably implies vengeance and militarism, especially after 9/11 when the term was used by supporters of the War on Terror.[4]



Netanyahu is putting Israel in the position of losing its humanity.
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Netanyahu is betraying the victims of the Holocaust. (Original Post) Uncle Joe Jul 2014 OP
Pink Floyd - Song for Palestine. Uncle Joe Jul 2014 #1
Song for Palestine - Pink Floyd ReRe Jul 2014 #7
I hear Ya Uncle Joe..Woke up with this song playing in my head this morning. Then I heard about misterhighwasted Jul 2014 #42
UNCLE JOE, Here's a statement from Roger Waters that explains what moved him to record this song misterhighwasted Jul 2014 #44
Thanks for that backdrop information, misterhighwasted. Uncle Joe Jul 2014 #46
He certainly does not honor their memory. Divernan Jul 2014 #2
I believe he's a political clone of Dick Cheney if not George W. Bush. n/t Uncle Joe Jul 2014 #4
If they could speak ... A-Schwarzenegger Jul 2014 #3
At least one of the survivors is, there may be more. Uncle Joe Jul 2014 #5
And also to you, Unc. A-Schwarzenegger Jul 2014 #11
There are more. Uncle Joe Jul 2014 #8
K&R ReRe Jul 2014 #6
Thank you, ReRe and I could agree more. Uncle Joe Jul 2014 #9
I agree... defacto7 Jul 2014 #10
Yes, Israel must honor the victims of the Holocaust by showing a stiff upper lip TheKentuckian Jul 2014 #12
You mention suicide bombings, there was one thwarted attempt in May of this year and that has Uncle Joe Jul 2014 #13
Time didn't start 6 years ago or 10 or 20 or 30 or 40 years ago TheKentuckian Jul 2014 #21
Thaaaaaank you. Rhinodawg Jul 2014 #23
Me too! nt COLGATE4 Jul 2014 #24
"Ignoring decades of clear history ..." intaglio Jul 2014 #28
The good neighbors that combined forces to win them out on multiple occasions TheKentuckian Jul 2014 #30
Nice attempt to derail the conversation into something you think you can win intaglio Jul 2014 #38
Post removed Post removed Jul 2014 #40
So is Zionist Cohen anti-semitic as well? Uncle Joe Jul 2014 #41
I posted about the Palestinians intaglio Jul 2014 #43
To me this rings the same as Republicans accusing critics of Cheney/Bush's lies to war and Uncle Joe Jul 2014 #45
Since time has no meaning to you, how far back in time would you go to right an injustice? Uncle Joe Jul 2014 #32
when innocent children die both sides are criminals or ahre Jewish children the roguevalley Jul 2014 #53
Growing up in Cleveland... awoke_in_2003 Jul 2014 #14
It's like I've posted many times here, awoke, blind hate will literaly consume the hater turning Uncle Joe Jul 2014 #15
And to you, Joe. nt awoke_in_2003 Jul 2014 #16
Sad, but true Leith Wise Jul 2014 #17
Welcome to D.U. Leith Wise. Uncle Joe Jul 2014 #18
Blessed Be Leith Wise Jul 2014 #27
K&R sadly. vanlassie Jul 2014 #19
If Sharon had been charged for war crimes malaise Jul 2014 #20
What a load of crap. Rhinodawg Jul 2014 #22
The argument is : "If those pesky Jews would just shut up COLGATE4 Jul 2014 #25
...^ that 840high Jul 2014 #29
The OP did not suggest Israel has of just take it. morningfog Jul 2014 #31
Thank you, morningfog. Uncle Joe Jul 2014 #35
Ok... Rhinodawg Jul 2014 #37
What's your version of My Lai? Uncle Joe Jul 2014 #39
Targeting and killing innocent civilians can never, by definition, morningfog Jul 2014 #50
There has been one suicide bombing attempt in the past six years. Uncle Joe Jul 2014 #33
Netanyahu is Israel's version of Dick Cheney. Avalux Jul 2014 #26
I couldn't agree more, Avalux. Uncle Joe Jul 2014 #34
Peace, Uncle Joe. Avalux Jul 2014 #36
That reconciliation agreement has been totally swept under the rug... countryjake Jul 2014 #47
I agree, countryjake and it's most tragic to say the least. Uncle Joe Jul 2014 #48
Comparisons to the Nazis are really overblown, in my opinion. BlueCheese Jul 2014 #49
Dead children are still dead children. Does that compare favorably? randome Jul 2014 #51
The Warsaw Ghetto. Uncle Joe Jul 2014 #52
Netanyahu is Israel's Cheney. How anyone who is a Democrat could support such a person sabrina 1 Jul 2014 #54
I agree, sabrina. I also believe that vote undercut Kerry's ability Uncle Joe Jul 2014 #55

ReRe

(10,597 posts)
7. Song for Palestine - Pink Floyd
Wed Jul 30, 2014, 01:30 AM
Jul 2014

Marking so I can come back and sing along with over and over and over until the madness stops.

misterhighwasted

(9,148 posts)
42. I hear Ya Uncle Joe..Woke up with this song playing in my head this morning. Then I heard about
Wed Jul 30, 2014, 06:45 PM
Jul 2014

the school bombing.
Makes a soul weary. STOP KILLING KIDS!!

misterhighwasted

(9,148 posts)
44. UNCLE JOE, Here's a statement from Roger Waters that explains what moved him to record this song
Wed Jul 30, 2014, 07:01 PM
Jul 2014

"Over the new year 2009-2010, an international group of 1500 men and women from 42 nations went to Egypt to join a Freedom March to Gaza. They did this to protest the current blockade of Gaza.
To protest the fact that the people of Gaza live in a virtual prison.
To protest the fact that a year after the terror attack by Israeli armed forces destroyed most of their homes, hospitals, schools, and other public buildings, they have no possibility to rebuild because their borders are closed.

The would be Freedom Marchers wanted to peacefully draw attention to the predicament of the Palestinian population of Gaza.
The Egyptian government, (funded to the tune of $2.1 billion a year, by us, the US tax payers), would not allow the marchers to approach Gaza.

How lame is that? And how predictable! I live in the USA and during this time Dec 25th 2009-Jan3rd 2010 I saw no reference to Gaza or the Freedom March or the multi national protesters gathered there.
Anyway I was moved, in the circumstances, to record a new version of "We shall overcome". It seems appropriate." (Roger Waters)

ReRe

(10,597 posts)
6. K&R
Wed Jul 30, 2014, 01:27 AM
Jul 2014

I pray for the day that the leaders of Israel will come to their senses and apologize to the Palestinians and to the world for what they have done. Peace and love is just so much easier than War and hate. Tear down those walls, swing the gates open and let those people go.
The world needs a Peace Doctrine. We need to wage Peace. Thanks, Uncle Joe for these words.

TheKentuckian

(25,023 posts)
12. Yes, Israel must honor the victims of the Holocaust by showing a stiff upper lip
Wed Jul 30, 2014, 02:20 AM
Jul 2014

at suicide bombings, kidnappings, and various terror attacks and do nothing as not to be out of the way with the folks attacking them and swearing to continue to do so until there is no Israel.

The popular logic is that these folks are kinda blowing off steam but would actually be cool if a few reasonable conditions were met (though what these conditions have more variance than snowflakes, often stretching "reasonable" well beyond its elasticity point and some way more than reasonable, in a vacuum).
Obviously not right away but at some vague and poorly fleshed out day indicated much less guaranteed by God knows what that history nor the current expressed intent of major players support.

It sounds mad in context and could only be the commentary of one who's ass will not be the one to get the downside of an absurd prescription waxing into an insane demand.

Uncle Joe

(58,336 posts)
13. You mention suicide bombings, there was one thwarted attempt in May of this year and that has
Wed Jul 30, 2014, 03:28 AM
Jul 2014

been the only attempt in over the past six years.

The would be bomber came from Nablus which is in the northern West Bank, not Gaza.



http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/30/israeli-forces-prevent-suspected-suicide-bomb-attempt-west-bank

Israeli forces have prevented what they say was the first attempted suicide bombing in more than six years, at a West Bank checkpoint south of the Palestinian city of Nablus.





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nablus

Nablus (Arabic: نابلس‎ Nāblus [næːblʊs] ( listen), Hebrew: שכם‎ Šəḵem, Biblical Shechem ISO 259-3 Škem, Greek: Νeapolis Νεάπολις is a city in the northern West Bank, approximately 49 kilometers (30 mi) north of Jerusalem,[3] (approximately 63 kilometers (39 mi) by road), with a population of 126,132.[2] Located in a strategic position between Mount Ebal and Mount Gerizim, it is the capital of the Nablus Governorate and a Palestinian commercial and cultural center.



You mention kidnappings; that also occurred in the West Bank, not Gaza and Israeli Police have refuted that Hamas was behind it, aside from that note, Gaza City had an estimated population of over a half a million people in 2012, and 1.8 Million in Gaza one of the most densely populated regions on the planet and many of them refugees or descendants of refugees sent there by Israel.

According to Israeli estimates Hamas has a total armed membership of several hundred to ten thousand.




http://www.dailydot.com/politics/israel-gaza-kidnap-false-inaccurate/

The recent explosion of violence in Gaza may have been initially sparked by false or inaccurate claims, according to Israeli police.

The ongoing conflict began last month when three Israeli teenagers were kidnapped from a Jewish settlement in the occupied West Bank. Their bodies were later discovered in a field outside the city of Hebron. Before police were able to determine who was responsible, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu placed blame for the tragic deaths squarely on Hamas, Gaza’s elected political leadership—an accusation that may prove to be false.

On Friday, Chief Inspector Micky Rosenfeld, foreign press spokesman for the Israel Police, reportedly told BBC journalist Jon Donnisonhe that the men responsible for murders were not acting on orders of Hamas leadership. Instead, he said, they are part of a “lone cell.” Further, Inspector Rosenfeld told Donnison that if Hamas’ leadership had ordered the kidnapping, “they'd have known about it in advance.”






http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_City#Population

A significant number of Gaza's pre-1948 residents were Egyptians or their descendants, who had fled political turmoil in Muhammad Ali's Egypt.[97] A massive influx of Palestinian refugees swelled Gaza's population after the 1948 Arab–Israeli War. By 1967, the population had grown to about six times its 1948 size.[57] In 1997, 51.8% of Gaza's inhabitants were refugees or their descendants.[98] The city's population has continued to increase since that time to 515,556 in 2012, making it the largest city in the Palestinian territories.[3][99] Gaza has one of the highest overall growth rates and population densities in the world: 9,982.69/km² (26,424.76/mi²).[57][100] In 2007 poverty, unemployment and poor living conditions were widespread and many residents received United Nations food aid.[57][101]





While the number of members is known only to the Brigades leadership, Israel estimates the Brigades have a core of several hundred members who receive military style training, including training in Iran and in Syria (before the Syrian civil war).[50] Additionally, the brigades have an estimated 10,000 operatives "of varying degrees of skill and professionalism" who are members of Hamas or their supporters and the internal security forces. These operatives can be expected to reinforce the Brigades in an "emergency situation".[51]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas



You mention rocket attacks, the head of Fatah in the West Bank had condemned them and Hamas in Gaza was actively working to stop rocket attacks until Israelis burned a Palestinian to death, attacked Gaza, escalated and started this tragedy by killing four or six Hamas fighters in Gaza over the kidnappings in the West Bank which Hamas had nothing to do with.

Up until then Hamas hadn't fired a rocket toward Israel in over 19 months.



http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/IDF-source-Hamas-working-to-stop-rockets-from-Gaza-311977

IDF source: Hamas working to stop Gaza rockets

There is “some degree of dialogue” between Israel and parties in Gaza to prevent rocket fire into southern Israel, Brig.-Gen. Micky Edelstein, commander of the army’s Gaza Division, said on Friday.

Speaking at an IDF event in Sderot, Edelstein said that Hamas was working to thwart rocket attacks from the Strip.
Related:

“Today Hamas and other actors in Gaza are acting to stop the rocket fire. They don’t always succeed, and where they fail, the IDF acts,” the general said.

Earlier last week, the London-based Asharq Al-Awsat newspaper reported that Hamas had replaced policemen in the Gaza Strip border areas with fighters from its armed wing, Izzadin Kassam, in an effort to stop the rocket fire.


(snip)

A Salafi official told the newspaper that his group refused to comply with the cease-fire agreement and would continue firing rockets at Israel. The Hamas government arrested Salafi jihadists who claimed responsibility for rocket fire at Israel, the paper reported.



So it wasn't suicide bombers, kidnappings or rocket fire that set Netanyahu off on his murderous rampage against an impoverished and trapped Palestinian citizenry, it was just blind hate, want of resources and self-serving political power.





TheKentuckian

(25,023 posts)
21. Time didn't start 6 years ago or 10 or 20 or 30 or 40 years ago
Wed Jul 30, 2014, 08:06 AM
Jul 2014

The reason attempts and success rates have drawn down is diminished capability due to the crackdown not because they went out of style

Rockets keep coming regardless of which terrorist group claims credit for them. Hamas took a break, the Popular and People's Front keep them going until some of their operatives are rounded up as the usual suspects and a few are killed, probably not in relation to walking old ladies across the street and fire up theirs again.
You think citizens care which group is behind each volley or they want them all stopped?

I don't get this need to ignore decades of clear history (other than to pretend there is none to paint the reactions as without rational motivation so one can just declare Israel to be evil) but thanks for documenting Egypt (and Jordan) flooding these areas (including with trained and hardened fighters) in reaction to their failed military efforts to destroy Israel to force them to be over run or to take aggressive action so they can wring their hands and spit curses for the world audience in reaction to the seeds planted by Arabs themselves with the same intent as the failed military efforts, the destruction of Israel be it by hook or by crook, be it my martial strength, to destabilize via terror, the court of opinion playing underdog and victim at every response to doing dirt themselves, assimilation, or by some pecking away combination but all are means to the same goal and all have been actively in the toolbox for decades, ever bending toward the same end.

We didn't come to the present circumstances in some vacuum where history starts at the current plight of the Palestinians, it took a lot of years and many, many events to build to this. Reactions and actions which have reduced both the capacity and impact of attacks but have been less than kindly to the population (but if they weren't taken mean more death and destruction for Israeli citizens as went on for years) which is where you want time to start from but it didn't even if it muddied your narrative.

intaglio

(8,170 posts)
28. "Ignoring decades of clear history ..."
Wed Jul 30, 2014, 11:17 AM
Jul 2014

Like you are doing.

Do some research on the Nakba and the Israeli annexation of Palestinian land. Do some research on the aggression that Israel has frequently visited upon it's neighbours.

It is probably too much to ask but try thinking instead of just mouthing Israeli propaganda.

TheKentuckian

(25,023 posts)
30. The good neighbors that combined forces to win them out on multiple occasions
Wed Jul 30, 2014, 01:57 PM
Jul 2014

including almost immediately?

The neighbors who after failing militarily three or four times settled into flooding the land with anyone that would go and a stepped up campaign of terror?

Yeah, perfect angels those neighbors are and tolerant as the day is long.

intaglio

(8,170 posts)
38. Nice attempt to derail the conversation into something you think you can win
Wed Jul 30, 2014, 03:00 PM
Jul 2014

We were talking about the Palestinians, you know the people who were dispossessed by the formation of the State of Israel; that dispossession was the Nakba when 700,000 of them were summarily made refugees. The Palestinians, the ones who are kept concentrated in camps in the Gaza subject to execution without charge if they cross the border and currently under assault yet again and killed without good reason. But if you want to support terrorists like Hamas or war criminals like the Israelis that's fine by me.

Instead let us talk about campaigns of terror and the fact that on at least 2 occasions Israel attacked their neighbours without warning and have, at other times used Kidon to assassinate any who got in their way in whatever country those victims lived. Let us talk about the illegal partitioning of Palestinian land. Why don't we talk about the failure of Israel to abide by United Nations resolutions since its inception or the illegal construction of nuclear weapons?

Again you mouth Israeli propaganda and cannot even be bothered to do your research.

Response to intaglio (Reply #38)

Uncle Joe

(58,336 posts)
41. So is Zionist Cohen anti-semitic as well?
Wed Jul 30, 2014, 06:40 PM
Jul 2014

On a thread by malaise.



http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025310460

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/30/opinion/roger-cohen-zionism-and-israels-war-with-hamas-in-gaza.html?ref=opinion&_r=2


I am a Zionist because the story of my forebears convinces me that Jews needed the homeland voted into existence by United Nations Resolution 181 of 1947, calling for the establishment of two states — one Jewish, one Arab — in Mandate Palestine. I am a Zionist who believes in the words of Israel’s founding charter of 1948 declaring that the nascent state would be based “on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel.”

(snip)

What I cannot accept, however, is the perversion of Zionism that has seen the inexorable growth of a Messianic Israeli nationalism claiming all the land between the Mediterranean and the Jordan River; that has, for almost a half-century now, produced the systematic oppression of another people in the West Bank; that has led to the steady expansion of Israeli settlements on the very West Bank land of any Palestinian state; that isolates moderate Palestinians like Salam Fayyad in the name of divide-and-rule; that pursues policies that will make it impossible to remain a Jewish and democratic state; that seeks tactical advantage rather than the strategic breakthrough of a two-state peace; that blockades Gaza with 1.8 million people locked in its prison and is then surprised by the periodic eruptions of the inmates; and that responds disproportionately to attack in a way that kills hundreds of children.

This, as a Zionist, I cannot accept. Jews, above all people, know what oppression is. Children over millennia were the transmission belt of Jewish survival, the object of what the Israeli novelist Amos Oz and his daughter Fania Oz-Salzberger have called “the intergenerational quizzing that ensures the passing of the torch.” No argument, no Palestinian outrage or subterfuge, can gloss over what Jewish failure the killing of children in such numbers represents.

The Israeli case for the bombardment of Gaza could be foolproof. If Benjamin Netanyahu had made a good-faith effort to find common cause with Palestinian moderates for peace and been rebuffed, it would be. He has not. Hamas is vile. I would happily see it destroyed. But Hamas is also the product of a situation that Israel has reinforced rather than sought to resolve.

This corrosive Israeli exercise in the control of another people, breeding the contempt of the powerful for the oppressed, is a betrayal of the Zionism in which I still believe.






intaglio

(8,170 posts)
43. I posted about the Palestinians
Wed Jul 30, 2014, 06:50 PM
Jul 2014

Any you responded to the general case.

I put in more information about the Palestinians and then destroyed your misleading assertions about Israel. Not once have you commented on the Nakba or the repression to which the Palestinians. Your only response is to accuse me of anti-semitism.

I have not alerted on your vile and false accusations of because those are par for the course from those believe every word given out Likud and Bibi, and cannot be bothered to actually look at history. At every turn I have pointed out that Israel is not "the Jews," and that the actions of Israel are not due to race or culture any more than the actions of the (few) Hamas fighters are due to their race or culture. How is it "anti-semitic" to point out that Israel is in breach of numerous conventions of war

If I am anti-semitic what is your opinion of the many Jews who have condemned the outrageous crimes of the Israeli state? To save you asking for the normal response, it is that they are "self hating Jews" - which of course they are not. Do not convince yourself that you are casting "pearls before swine," but rather you are trying to blow a noxious smoke into the face of all who want this horror to end.

Uncle Joe

(58,336 posts)
45. To me this rings the same as Republicans accusing critics of Cheney/Bush's lies to war and
Wed Jul 30, 2014, 07:03 PM
Jul 2014

promotion of torture as being anti-American.

Peace to you, intaglio.

Uncle Joe

(58,336 posts)
32. Since time has no meaning to you, how far back in time would you go to right an injustice?
Wed Jul 30, 2014, 02:08 PM
Jul 2014


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba

The 1948 Palestinian exodus, known in Arabic as the Nakba (Arabic: النكبة‎, an-Nakbah, lit. "disaster", "catastrophe", or "cataclysm&quot ,[1] occurred when more than 700,000 Palestinian Arabs fled or were expelled from their homes, during the 1947–1948 Civil War in Mandatory Palestine and the 1948 Arab–Israeli War.[2] The term nakba also refers to the period of war itself and events affecting Palestinians from December 1947 to January 1949, and is synonymous in that sense with what is known to Israelis as the War of Independence (Hebrew: מלחמת העצמאות or מלחמת הקוממיות, Milkhemet Ha'atzma'ut, a term which covers those two events).[3][4][5][6]

The exact number of refugees is a matter of dispute.[7] But around 80 percent of the Arab inhabitants of what became Israel (50 percent of the Arab total of Mandatory Palestine) left or were expelled from their homes.[8][9] The causes remain also the subject of fundamental disagreement between Arabs and Israelis. Factors involved in the exodus include Jewish military advances, attacks against Arab villages and fears of another massacre after Deir Yassin,[10]:239–240 which caused many to leave out of panic; expulsion orders by Zionist authorities; the voluntary self-removal of the wealthier classes,[11] the collapse in Palestinian leadership,[12] and an unwillingness to live under Jewish control.[13] Later, a series of laws passed by the first Israeli government prevented them from returning to their homes, or claiming their property. They and many of their descendants remain refugees.[14][15] Later in the war, Palestinians were expelled as part of Plan Dalet.[16][citation needed] The expulsion of the Palestinians has since been described by some historians as ethnic cleansing,[17][18][19] while others dispute this charge.[20][21][22]

During the Lausanne Conference of 1949, Israel proposed allowing the return of 100,000 of the refugees, in what it referred to as a goodwill gesture prior to negotiation for the whole refugee population,[23] though not necessarily to their homes, and including 25,000 who had returned surreptitiously and 10,000 family-reunion cases.[10]:577 "Israel formally informed the PCC of its readiness to take back '100,000' refugees on 3 August, making it conditional on 'retaining all present territory' and on the freedom to resettle the returnees where it saw fit."[10]:577 The proposal was conditional on a peace treaty that would allow Israel to retain the territory it had taken, and on the Arab states absorbing the remaining 550,000–650,000 refugees. "The Arab states rejected the proposal on both moral and political grounds."[24]

The status of the refugees, and in particular whether Israel will grant them their claimed right to return to their homes or be compensated, are key issues in the ongoing Israeli–Palestinian conflict. The events of 1948 are commemorated by Palestinians both in the Palestinian territories as well as elsewhere on 15 May, a date now known as Nakba Day.



Hamas had come to realize that rocket attacks were wrong and were cracking down themselves, other groups sprang up because the Ghetto of Gaza created by Israel sustains and feeds the kind of hatred needed to launch those and other types of attacks.

Even so in 2013 rocket attacks dropped 98% because Hamas was putting a stop to it, but after Israel's attack; which was in truth motivated by the Fatah/Hamas formation of a unity government and the threat of unified democracy breaking out on June the 2nd of this year, rocket attacks increased 1500%

If Israel cracking down on them was such a great deterrent, there shouldn't be any rocket attacks.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel


Annual number of attacks and casualties[1][137][140][141][142][143] Year Dead Injured Rocket attacks Mortar attacks Total attacks Total attacks
% change
2001 0 4 4+
2002 0 35 35+ negative increase 775%
2003 0 155 155+ negative increase 343%
2004 4 281 281+ negative increase  81%
2005 2 401 854 1,255 negative increase 346%
2006 2 371 1,722 55 1,777 negative increase  42%
2007 2 578 1,276 1,531 2,807 negative increase  58%
2008 8 611 2,048 1,668 3,716 negative increase  32%
Israeli and Egyptian blockade of Gaza after Operation Cast Lead to stop missile fire into Israel[144] and arms import into Gaza.[145][146]
2009 0 11 569 289 858 positive decrease  77%
2010 1 35 150 215 365 positive decrease  57%
2011 2 81 419 261 680[147] negative increase  86%
2012 * 6[136][148] 284+ 2,256[149] 17 2,273+[150][151] negative increase 234% 
2013 0 32 12 44 positive decrease 98%
2014 1 16 680 25 705 negative increase 1500%

Total * 28 1971+ 10,138 4,890 15,047



Israel isn't in danger of being destroyed, they have the most powerful military in the region, not to mention nuclear weapons, the Palestinians on the other hand are relatively helpless and are in danger of being destroyed.

It doesn't take "playing in the court of public opinion" to be painted as an underdog or victim, just logic and common sense.

I agree we didn't come to this place in a vacuum but to ignore or sweep under the rug what has been done and is happening to the Palestinians is wallowing in willful ignorance and a self-perpetuating travesty.

I'm not "declaring Israel to be evil," however Netanyahu's government with this ongoing massacre against an already oppressed people in Gaza is doing precisely just that.



roguevalley

(40,656 posts)
53. when innocent children die both sides are criminals or ahre Jewish children the
Wed Jul 30, 2014, 11:22 PM
Jul 2014

Only one that count. Gaza is fish in a barrel. All Israel is doing is killing its own future. When the innocent die both sides are criminals.

 

awoke_in_2003

(34,582 posts)
14. Growing up in Cleveland...
Wed Jul 30, 2014, 04:04 AM
Jul 2014

a lot of my neighbors had tattoos on their forearms. Asking what they meant, I found out from the victims exactly what the Holocaust was. Not once have I met someone who survived that was vengeful. Sad? Yes. Determined it wouldn't happen again? Yes. But I don't think many of them would condone what the Israeli government is doing. IMO, Israeli is becoming the bully, and I don't think a large percentage of the survivors approve. Of course, that generation is dying out, and I don't think those that followed have totally absorbed the history. Kind of like the labor movement here. People fought and died for worker's rights, but our generation has forgotten it all, and take it for granted.

Uncle Joe

(58,336 posts)
15. It's like I've posted many times here, awoke, blind hate will literaly consume the hater turning
Wed Jul 30, 2014, 04:12 AM
Jul 2014

them into what they claim to or should hate the most.

The survivors of the Holocaust stared into the abyss and saw evil, their contemporaries have never been there.

The same holds true for many people that never experienced what the early labor movement had to go through, so they forget or it's never passed down and taught them.

Peace to you.

malaise

(268,846 posts)
20. If Sharon had been charged for war crimes
Wed Jul 30, 2014, 07:05 AM
Jul 2014

Netanyahu would never have come to power.
International law is under siege - might is right.

 

Rhinodawg

(2,219 posts)
22. What a load of crap.
Wed Jul 30, 2014, 08:31 AM
Jul 2014

So to satisfy the idea that docile Jews should just take any suicide bombing, any murder of it citizens and any missile , is insane.

And if Israel doesn't then "they have become what they hate".

What a load of unadulterated bullshit.


Sorry Israel won't commit suicide to satisfy your preconceived notions.

COLGATE4

(14,732 posts)
25. The argument is : "If those pesky Jews would just shut up
Wed Jul 30, 2014, 10:48 AM
Jul 2014

and 'not rock the boat', everything would be peace and love and the whole Middle East would be a virtual Garden of Eden". It seems that today many people are unable (or unwilling) to understand how the Holocaust seared into the fiber or all Israelis an absolute unshakable determination to never again permit themselves to become passive victims, be it at the hands of Nazis or of those of their Arab "neighbors". There will be no more Masadas. Israel will not go quietly into another dark night, whether others approve or not.

 

morningfog

(18,115 posts)
31. The OP did not suggest Israel has of just take it.
Wed Jul 30, 2014, 02:03 PM
Jul 2014

Israel long passed legitimate self defense in this massacre. It is disgusting what they have done and continue to do. It long ceased being self-defense.

 

morningfog

(18,115 posts)
50. Targeting and killing innocent civilians can never, by definition,
Wed Jul 30, 2014, 07:44 PM
Jul 2014

be legal self defense. In fact, it is a war crime.

There is a great expamse between doing nothing and war crimes.

Uncle Joe

(58,336 posts)
33. There has been one suicide bombing attempt in the past six years.
Wed Jul 30, 2014, 02:21 PM
Jul 2014

That came from the West Bank and it was thwarted.

Rocket fire had been reduced 98% in 2013 because Hamas was changing its tune trying to stop others, it increased 1500% after Israel attacked the impoverished and oppressed citizenry of Gaza.

Israel attacked Gaza because Fatah and Hamas had formed a unity government and Netanyahu was afraid a unified democracy would break out, he is no different than Dick Cheney or George W.Bush.

Israel with the most powerful military in the region, not to mention nuclear weapons is in no danger of committing suicide, but it is in danger of losing it's soul under Netanyahu and becoming what they claim to and should hate the most.

Fundamentally speaking, the Ghetto in Gaza is no different than the Ghetto in Warsaw.

Avalux

(35,015 posts)
26. Netanyahu is Israel's version of Dick Cheney.
Wed Jul 30, 2014, 10:50 AM
Jul 2014

An amoral man consumed with his own importance and warped moral authority, where the ends justify the means...no matter that those 'ends' killing of innocent people. Yes I condemn Hamas and their actions, but those actions can't be used as justification for what seems to be the purposeful destruction of the Gaza Strip, and the Palestinian people. He wants their destruction. He is no better than Hamas.

Oh the sad, sad irony.

countryjake

(8,554 posts)
47. That reconciliation agreement has been totally swept under the rug...
Wed Jul 30, 2014, 07:28 PM
Jul 2014

by so many who want to continue with their meme of rockets, tunnels, terrorists. But they cannot shriek past it.

On the Jerusalem Post's own pages it can be found to clearly state that the pact signed by both Hamas and Fatah on April 23 of this year included recognition of the state of Israel, the promise of a path of non-violence, and the handing-over of Hamas leadership in Gaza to the Palestinian Authority president, Mahmoud Abbas.

At this point, it's clear to me that it's both the USA and the Israeli government who have no wish to bring the violence to an end in Occupied Palestine.

Thanks for the thread, Joe.

I weep for the people of Gaza.

BlueCheese

(2,522 posts)
49. Comparisons to the Nazis are really overblown, in my opinion.
Wed Jul 30, 2014, 07:43 PM
Jul 2014

The Nazis perpetrated an evil on a magnitude that one can scarcely believe. To compare the actions of anyone today to that trivializes what the Nazis did and the unspeakable horror of that time in history.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
51. Dead children are still dead children. Does that compare favorably?
Wed Jul 30, 2014, 07:45 PM
Jul 2014

[hr][font color="blue"][center]If you don't give yourself the same benefit of a doubt you'd give anyone else, you're cheating someone.[/center][/font][hr]

Uncle Joe

(58,336 posts)
52. The Warsaw Ghetto.
Wed Jul 30, 2014, 08:14 PM
Jul 2014

Last edited Wed Jul 30, 2014, 08:47 PM - Edit history (1)



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_ghetto

The construction of the ghetto wall started on April 1, 1940.[6] The Warsaw Ghetto was established by the German Governor-General Hans Frank on October 16, 1940 in an area of Warsaw primarily occupied by Polish Jews. Frank ordered all Jews in Warsaw and its suburbs rounded up and herded into the Ghetto. At this time, the population in the Ghetto was estimated to be 400,000 people, about 30% of the population of Warsaw;[7] however, the area of the Ghetto was only about 2.4% of that of Warsaw.[8]

The Germans closed the Warsaw Ghetto to the outside world on November 16, 1940. The wall was typically 3 m (9.8 ft) high and topped with barbed wire. Escapees could be shot on sight. The borders of the ghetto changed many times during the next years.


(snip)

Unemployment was a major problem in the ghetto. Illegal workshops were created to manufacture goods to be sold illegally on the outside and raw goods were smuggled in, often by children. Hundreds of four- to eight-year-old Jewish children went across en masse to the "Aryan side," sometimes several times a day, smuggling food into the ghettos, returning with goods that often weighed more than they did. Smuggling was often the only source of subsistence for Ghetto inhabitants, who would otherwise have died of starvation.

(snip)

The Germans expected no resistance, but preparations to resist had been going on since the previous autumn.[18] The first instances of Jewish armed resistance began that day. The Jewish fighters had some success: the expulsion stopped after four days and the ŻOB and ŻZW resistance organizations took control of the Ghetto, building shelters and fighting posts and operating against Jewish collaborators.[13]

The final battle started on the eve of Passover of April 19, 1943, when a Nazi force consisting of several thousand troops entered the ghetto. After initial setbacks, the Germans under the field command of Jürgen Stroop systematically burned and blew up the ghetto buildings, block by block, rounding up or murdering anybody they could capture. Significant resistance ended on April 28, and the Nazi operation officially ended in mid-May, symbolically culminating with the demolition of the Great Synagogue of Warsaw on May 16. According to the official report, at least 56,065 people were killed on the spot or deported to German Nazi concentration and death camps (Treblinka, Poniatowa, Majdanek, Trawniki).






The Gaza Ghetto

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip

Gaza has an annual population growth rate of 2.91% (2014 est.), the 13th highest in the world, and is overcrowded.[4][5] There is a limited capability to construct new homes and facilities for this growth. The territory is 41 kilometers (25 mi) long, and from 6 to 12 kilometers (3.7 to 7.5 mi) wide, with a total area of 365 square kilometers (141 sq mi).[6] As of 2014, Palestinians of the Gaza Strip numbered around 1.82 million people.[5] The large Palestinian refugee population makes it among the most densely populated parts of the world.[7] Sunni Muslims make up the predominant part of the Palestinian population in the Gaza Strip.

(snip)

Between December 2000 and June 2001, the barrier between Gaza and Israel was reconstructed. A barrier on the Gaza Strip-Egypt border was constructed starting in 2004.[17] The main crossing points are the northern Erez Crossing into Israel and the southern Rafah Crossing into Egypt. The eastern Karni Crossing used for cargo, closed down in 2011.[18] Israel controls the Gaza Strip's northern borders, as well as its territorial waters and airspace. Egypt controls Gaza Strip's southern border, under an agreement between it and Israel.[19] Neither Israel or Egypt permits free travel from Gaza as both borders are heavily militarily fortified. "Egypt maintains a strict blockade on Gaza in order to isolate Hamas from Islamist insurgents in the Sinai."[20]

(snip)

Human Rights Watch has advised the UN Human Rights Council that it views Israel as a de facto occupying power in the Gaza Strip, even though Israel has no military or other presence, because the Oslo Accord authorizes Israel to control the airspace and the territorial sea.[23][24][126] Other NGOs and other pro-Israel entities have been reported to contest that specific view.[124][127][128]

The economy of the Gaza Strip is severely hampered by Egypt and Israel's almost total blockade, the high population density, limited land access, strict internal and external security controls, the effects of Israeli military operations, and restrictions on labor and trade access across the border. Per capita income (PPP) was estimated at US$3,100 in 2009, a position of 164th in the world.[131] Seventy percent of the population is below the poverty line according to a 2009 estimate.[131] Gaza Strip industries are generally small family businesses that produce textiles, soap, olive-wood carvings, and mother-of-pearl souvenirs; the Israelis have established some small-scale modern industries in an industrial center. Israel supplies the Gaza Strip with electricity.



My first sentence in the OP was that Netanyahu hasn't committed a Holocaust yet, but neither had the Nazis before they did.

Not to mention, there is nothing trivial about mass murdering a trapped, impoverished citizenry; men, women and children by relentless bombing and/or shooting naval and artillery shells with no regard to the consequences to the oppressed people.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
54. Netanyahu is Israel's Cheney. How anyone who is a Democrat could support such a person
Wed Jul 30, 2014, 11:33 PM
Jul 2014

is beyond me.

But today, I learned that every member of the Senate, led by Sen. Reid, voted to support him.

We were puzzled by the Dems who voted for the Iraq War, we made excuses, but there is NO excuse for what happened in the US Senate this week. None, zero, nada. They condoned the murder of children, the condemned the UN who are trying to stop it.

I want to hear why we should be willing to accept this? History will condemn this, we criticize those who throughout history, were on the wrong side. ANYONE who tries to excuse this is on the wrong side of history. I will not go there, simply because OUR PARTY has chosen the wrong path.

This truly is a test. I condemn that vote and I want history to record that not all Americans were afraid to do so.

Uncle Joe

(58,336 posts)
55. I agree, sabrina. I also believe that vote undercut Kerry's ability
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 12:10 AM
Jul 2014

to operate from a position of strength or as an honest broker in negotiating a peaceful resolution. Netanyahu's government knew they could tell Kerry to basically go and stick it.

It's sad to say, but it probably took a supreme act of political courage for Obama to come out and condemn the blowing up of a U.N. School. The Congress needs to come out as well on this, but I don't expect it.

As my post #13 states, there had been only one attempted suicide bombing the past six years, that coming from the West Bank and it was thwarted. There had been no Rocket Attacks from Hamas in over 19 months, until Netanyahu's government attacked. Rocket attacks in 2013 had been reduced 98%.

Hamas was coming around to Fatah's point of view that rocket attacks were counterproductive and an obstacle to peace, Israel even credits Hamas with trying to stop rocket attacks.

On 6/2/14 Fatah and Hamas had reached a deal on a unity government and were going to hold elections, this upset Netanyahu to no end and I'm convinced he was looking for reason to attack and restart hostilities.

In my book Netanyahu is no different than Cheney or Bush.

The only logical reason I can see for the Congress in passing such a vote considering the facts and contradictory evidence was political expediency ruling over justness or even long term security for Israel.

This being an election year, the Democrats were too afraid of giving the Republicans a wedge issue with evangelical, fundamentalist and possibly even moderate Christians that interpret the Old Testament as God giving the Jews the land of Israel as an ethnic blessing instead of a transactional one.

I believe some of those Christians subconsciously if not consciously want to see the end times because they're afraid of dying alone.

Ghandi and Naomi Wolf had different takes on the Old Testament below.



http://metamorphosis.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5300080

And now a word to the Jews in Palestine. I have no doubt that they are going about it in the wrong way. The Palestine of the Biblical conception is not a geographical tract. It is in their hearts. But if they must look to the Palestine of geography as their national home, it is wrong to enter it under the shadow of the British gun. A religious act cannot be performed with the aid of the bayonet or the bomb. They can settle in Palestine only by the goodwill of the Arabs. They should seek to convert the Arab heart.



On a thread by kpete.



http://metamorphosis.democraticunderground.com/10025292023

(snip)

Again and again in the "covenant" language He never says: "I will give you, ethnic Israelites, the land of Israel." Rather He says something far more radical - far more subversive -- far more Godlike in my view. He says: IF you visit those imprisoned...act mercifully to the widow and the orphan...welcome the stranger in your midst...tend the sick...do justice and love mercy ....and perform various other tasks...THEN YOU WILL BE MY PEOPLE AND THIS LAND WILL BE YOUR LAND. So "my people" is not ethnic -- it is transactional. We are God's people not by birth but by a way of behaving, that is ethical, kind and just. And we STOP being "God's people" when we are not ethical, kind and just. And ANYONE who is ethical, kind and just is, according to God in Genesis, "God's people." And the "contract" to "give" us Israel is conditional -- we can live in God's land IF we are "God's people" in this way -- just, merciful, compassionate. AND -- it never ever says, it is ONLY your land. Even when passages spell out geographical "boundaries" as if God does such a thing, it never says this is exclusively your land. It never says I will give this land JUST to you. Remember these were homeless nomads who had left slavery in Egypt and were wandering around in the desert; at most these passages say, settle here, but they do not say, settle here exclusively. Indeed again and again it talks about welcoming "zarim" -- translated as "strangers" but can also be translated as "people/tribes who are not you" -- in your midst. Blew my mind, hope it blows yours.

https://www.facebook.com/naomi.wolf.author/posts/10152548360004476?fref=nf



Peace to you, sabrina.
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