Abortion

[RobertEarl]

So I've been talking to some folks who say they are Republicans because of the stance of the Democrats.

I try to tell them that Democrats are not pro-abortion, we are just against the government telling a woman what she should do with her body. That we are for a woman's right to choose.

I get nowhere. So then we move to taking steps to avoid having to make a choice. And that leads us right into contraceptives. And they agree that contraceptives should be available to any person who even thinks they may need to keep from causing a pregnancy or becoming pregnant.

It is the only common ground I have found regarding this issue.

What's your take?

[jeff47]

1. Depends on their angle.

If they're "Keep government out of ____" folks:
"The government thinks you should get a histerectomy. Why? Who knows. You let government decide your medical care when you fought for government to decide who gets abortions and when".

If they're the "poor little babies" folks:
"How many unwanted children have you adopted? None? So you want those poor children to be abandoned?"

If they're the "sluts must be punished" folks, I recommend not talking to them anymore. They are stupid and evil.

[aspieextrodinare]

4. What if they have adopted "unwanted children"

Many who are pro-life have.

[REP]

5. And I'm Queen Marie of Romania

Why are there so many unadopted Black male children then but white newborns go for $100K+?

[aspieextrodinare]

7. That hardly answered my question

My mom's cousin has two adopted children. One white one black, both disabled (she works for one of those big special needs companies like Easter Seals). As far as I know she is also pro-life. What would my argument be to her then?

[uppityperson]

9. I am glad she is helping children who need it. But don't dictate my health care, it is between me &

my health care provider.

[Mariana]

17. Argument A, of course.

The government shouldn't be making healthcare decisions for people. Funny how the anti-choice folks always pretend to forget that all pregnancies are potentially life-threatening. Only the woman concerned should be deciding if she wants to take that risk.

I took the risk once. My own pet complication was gestational diabetes, 100% caused by the pregnancy. My glucose has never been the slightest bit high before or since. Diabetes, if you didn't know, does horrible things to the bodies of those afflicted with it, often causing permanent damage. It was my choice to go through it once, and it's my choice not to go through it again. Whatever makes your mother's cousin think SHE should get to make that decision for me? Or for anyone else?

At any rate, the number of anti-choicers who've actually done what your mother's cousin did is pretty damn small. If you really want to argue in favor of choice, there's no shortage of hypocrites out there, who aren't the slightest bit interested in doing anything for children who've actually been born. You can concentrate on them.

[lunatica]

27. So obviously the mothers didn't choose abortion did they?

Were these children she adopted the product of incest or rape? Where the mothers too young to care for their babies? Or do you think they were just throwaway children?

[PassingFair]

23. Easy. If they are against abortion, tell them not to have one.

When I see people with "Choose Life" bumperstickers, I
try and say "I love your bumpersticker!"

When they say thank you, I say "I really like the CHOOSE part".

[jeff47]

25. Correction:

Very, very, very, very few who are pro-life have.

[lunatica]

26. Do you have a link or two to show your assertion?

Thanks.

[proud2BlibKansan]

30. I live in Kansas and am surrounded by anti-choicers. I know NONE who have adopted children.

So I don't know what you mean by "many" but if they aren't here in forced birth hell, I don't know where they would be.

[REP]

2. My take? They can fuck off and die

End of line. I have no use for anyone who is anti-choice. They can just piss off.

[RobertEarl]

3. I don't use that reaction

Abortion is legal, so there is no reason for me to be so hard-line. I do understand the reaction, tho. I do tell them that if men got pregnant abortion would never be questioned.

What I am looking for here are arguments that find common ground and lead to the need for that difficult choice to not even have to be considered via contraception, and also education.

What I look for is to soften the hard-core feelings of the anti-abortionists to try and get them to drop their objections to voting for Democrats. Often times that is their sole decision that makes them vote so stupidly.

[REP]

6. If they vote R because of abortion and abortion only, they can't be reasoned with

[RobertEarl]

10. I don't find that to be absolutely true

Although they are more difficult, but usually just in that regard.

[LeftishBrit]

20. If they are susceptible to reasoning, then I would point out that poverty and lack of healthcare

cause many deaths, and that a party that enables these is not 'pro-life'. I would point out that infant mortality is far higher among poor than rich people; is not a preventable death of a baby a particularly horrible form of late abortion?

I would also point out that making abortion illegal does not prevent it. Those who can afford it, will find a doctor prepared to do the procedure and cover it up as something else, or if necessary will travel somewhere where the procedure is legal. Poor women will resort to the backstreets or to coat hangers, and many will suffer terrible illness and even death as a result.

If your acquaintances have been also been influenced by propaganda about 'big government', which is quite likely as the same right-wing sources often emphasize both, then I would point out that 'big government' should not be given power over women's most personal choices.

I would also point out that whatever one thinks about abortion, the anti-abortion Republicans are taking their views to dangerous and fanatical extremes: threatening the right to any form of birth control; forcing pelvic ultrasounds on women; etc.

[lunatica]

29. In my experience if you speak calmly, ask questions respectfully and reason with them

They will always end up agreeing with you. Until the next day when they boomerang right back to their original opinion again. And, by the way, they either forget the conversation in which they agreed with you or they simply never talk to you about politics again. I've gotten both reactions.

It may look like progress but most of the time it's just them agreeing only to shut you up.

[bemildred]

8. One out of two is not a bad start.

Rome was not built in a day.

I think your approach to the problem, civil discussion, is the right one, most of the time.

[RobertEarl]

11. Needed

A way to show them Republicans are just using the issue as a wedge.

[bemildred]

13. You can't force anybody to accept an argument.

It's sort of like the internet.

They have to be emotionally ready to listen. Be patient and civil and state your case when the opportunity comes up.

I have lots of conservatives in my family, it can get annoying, I know.

[RobertEarl]

19. Conservatives are not offered much respect

But the people who are on the border over just this one issue are my focus.

Cons are usually just made to recognize their stupidity and or ignored. Why waste my time?

Those on the fence get close attention.

[bemildred]

24. We all learn as we go.

I've was all over the map politically when I was young. The older I get, the less I think angry opinions get you anywhere useful in politics. (Though they do have their place.) Anybody that will talk in a civil manner, I'll take a shot at it.

[yewberry]

12. My take is pretty simple.

Making legislation based on philosophy is problematic, because people face the world and the decisions they make from a whole array of philosophies. Legislation based upon the philosophy of one group takes rights away from those who hold a different set of beliefs. I don't eat meat, and haven't for 25 years. It would be wrong for me to do so, but I wouldn't presume to try to make that decision for other people. The common ground is that our own personal guiding principles cannot be applied to our fellow citizens with other beliefs.

At the same time, from a pragmatic standpoint, abortion will never go away, regardless of of how much legislation is put into place and how ardently some wish it would.The wealthy will always be able to obtain abortions, but poorer people might not. If abortion is not available legally, illegal, unsafe abortions will continue, and women will die.

As a society, it would be incredibly irresponsible to choose to codify the philosophical/religious beliefs of part of our nation at the expense of the rights and lives of those who disagree.

[uppityperson]

15. Indeed. Roe v Wade was not just about making abortion legal but about giving the same rights regardl

regardless of money. The rich have always been able to buy safe hygienic abortions while the poor haven't.

Approach "pro-choice" not as "chosing to get an abortion" but having the choice of a safe, legal, hygienic one vs a back alley one.

[RobertEarl]

16. True

If you could boil that down to two lines and keep the same effect, it might turn heads in a street conversation.

Since these folks are usually overly religious, I do tell them that the decision is between the decider and their God. And not for us to judge.

[Luminous Animal]

14. When I was pregnant, my ex-husband beat the crap out of me...

He cornered me. I was crouched on the ground and he kicked me and kicked me and kicked me over and over again on my shins so much that I could barely walk for weeks.

Turns out, he didn't want children. I was 20 weeks pregnant. I had an abortion because there was no way in hell I was going to have a connection with that guy for the rest of my life.

We had a great relationship until I got pregnant AND I was on birth control.

[RobertEarl]

18. That's why I stand for your right of choice

Women have been treated so very badly, and as a man I offer my deepest apologies and vow to help end the abuse whenever and wherever I can.

Your right to choice is a right that you should never have to give up. It is a RIGHT as a human being.

[lunatica]

28. My ex waited 4 days after the baby was born to start beating me

Isn't that thoughtful? He was stressed because the baby was crying. Poor dear.

[Ilsa]

21. "Why should my insurance have to pay

for your contraceptives?" is what I see on conservative websites.

[proud2BlibKansan]

31. "Why should the government have to pay?"

Or "Why should I have to pay?"

That's what I am seeing on conservative websites. Dipshits are so stupid they don't understand this debate is about forcing insurance companies to cover contraception, not making the government pay for it.

[Dilldoe]

22. The Anti-Choicers cannot be reasoned with

you can be polite nod your head and walk away.

You can confront them on the nonsense they believe.

Or you just ignore them because they are the true believers who will not change their mind and many IMHO are future terrorists.


Look at it this way would you even try to reason with say Joseph Goebbels?