Human rights group says Syrian government is bombing civilians in defiance of UN resolution

[oberliner]

BEIRUT—The Syrian government is still indiscriminately bombing civilians with explosive-filled barrels in defiance of a UN Security Council resolution, an international human rights group said Wednesday.

Human Rights Watch’s statement came as the Security Council is expected to meet later in the day for a fifth round of reporting on the resolution.

February’s resolution demanded a halt to all attacks against civilians and indiscriminate shelling and aerial bombardment — including the use of so-called barrel bombs — in populated areas.

The New York-based group has documented over 650 strikes on rebel-held neighbourhoods in the northern city of Aleppo since the resolution’s adoption. It noted in the report that opposition fighters also carry out indiscriminate attacks, including mortar strikes and car bombings.

The crude weapons — barrels packed with explosives and scraps of metal and pushed out of helicopters — cannot be precisely targeted, and have caused widespread civilian casualties.

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2014/07/30/human_rights_group_says_syrian_government_is_bombing_civilians_in_defiance_of_un_resolution.html

[jberryhill]

1. we should cut off US military aid to Assad

And impose economic and trading sanctions against the Syrian government.

[oberliner]

3. Do you support Obama's call fo $500 million to arm the opposition?

Obama asks Congress for $500 million to aid Syrian opposition

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/obama-asks-congress-500-million-aid-syrian-opposition-article-1.1845550

[jberryhill]

6. no, I don't

But I am glad we do not call Syria an "ally".

[oberliner]

10. Those that do call Syria an ally hopefully will (continue to?) speak out against this

And massive protests worldwide in countries that don't give any money to either side - just to draw attention to the horror that is going on in Syria.

[jberryhill]

20. You really don't get it

I'm a US citizen, voter, and taxpayer. I am not running the world and don't pretend to. If MY government is supporting people who do this sort of thing, that's a matter between me and my government.

Some people's definition of "friendship" is "unqualified support for.whatever that person does". That's not friendship. I do not fault my enemies for doing bad things, I expect it from them. However, I do not support my friends doing the things which made my enemies what qualified them for the title.

You are incapable of understanding that, because you believe that any criticism of Israel is "support.for Hamas". It is a tiring game.

I do not support anyone who fires rockets into civilian populations or who bombard civilian populations.

As far as I know, MY government is not helping Assad reload.

[GeorgeGist]

39. I fault people who do bad things ...

unless they're children or mentally incompetent.

[jberryhill]

49. yes, but you also choose with whom you associate

When DU has a bunch of Assad supporters going on about how he can do no wrong, I imagine I will have some words for then should I come across one of their many threads.

Our friend here is, I believe, attempting to accuse anyone who does not enthusiastically cheer each bomb in Gaza, like the Israelis who gather on hillsides in chairs to watch the fireworks, of being hypocrites of some sort.

He appears to be saying "Assad is as bad as Netanyahu, but you don't argue with all.the Assad supporters on DU" or something to that effect - apparently not quite grasping that the content of any discussion depends on who shows up to talk about what. As far as the Syria conflict goes, and maybe I missed something, DU doesn't seem to have many contributing partisans from either side (neither of which in that conflict I find particularly appealing).

Our friend also suffers from an absolutist syndrome in which, as between A and B, any criticism of A is "support.for B".

Now, there are some 1.8 million people in Gaza. The question is how many of them need to be killed. This is a simple statistical exercise reducing to a problem of "if 10,000 people in a group of 1.8 million are combatants, then how many of them do you need to kill to reach a 99% probability of killing all the combatants."

I leave that problem, and the generally solution for N population and M combatants, as an exercise for.the reader.

[Douglas Carpenter]

5. I absolutely agree- There is no reason to give the Syrian government 3.5 billion dollars in military

aid - It should stop today. Not one penny for that wretched Syrian government - I say!! But with Congress constantly passing resolutions supporting Syria, our representatives in the U.N. constantly vetoing resolutions critical of Syria and even some of the most liberal members of the Democratic Party joining the most conservative members of the Republican Party in singing the praises of Syria while all this carnage continues - I don't think there is much chance that the aid to the Syrian government will stop.

[oberliner]

8. Do you support $500 million to train and arm the rebels?

That is the amount Obama has recently asked Congress for.

[Douglas Carpenter]

14. no!

Liberals arguing that the U.S. should give weapons to Syrian rebels underestimate Assad's power

This article is from more than a year ago - but I think the points are still very, very relevant. I strongly recommend reading this article in full - in salon.com by Gary Kamiya:

http://www.salon.com/2012/04/13/dont_arm_syrias_rebels/singleton/

snips:

This is not a knee-jerk left-wing response. It has nothing to do with Iraq. Nor does it have anything to do with the proxy war between the U.S. and its allies and Iran and its allies. It is not driven by pacifism or opposition to all war. All U.S. wars are not axiomatically foolish, evil or driven by brutal self-interest (although most of them since World War II have been). The airstrikes on Kosovo and the Libya campaign were justified (although the jury is still out on the latter intervention). If arming the Syrian opposition would result in fewer deaths and a faster transition to a peaceful, open, democratic society, we should arm them.

That analysis has been provided by a number of in-depth reports, most notably a new study by the International Crisis Group, as well as the excellent on-the-ground reporting of Nir Rosen for Al-Jazeera. The bottom line is simple. The war has become a zero-sum game for Assad. If he loses, he dies. But the only way he can lose is if he is abandoned by his crucial external patron, Russia, which is extremely unlikely to happen absent some slaughter so egregious that Moscow feels it has to cut ties with him. Assad has sufficient domestic support to hold on for a long time, and a huge army that is not likely to defect en masse. Under these circumstances, giving arms to the rebels, however much it may make conscience-stricken Western observers feel better, will simply make the civil war much bloodier and its outcome even more chaotic and dangerous.

The key point concerns Assad’s domestic support. Contrary to the widely held belief that most Syrians support the opposition and are opposed to the Assad regime, Syrians are in fact deeply divided. The country’s minorities – the ruling Alawites, Christians and Druze – tend to support the regime, if only because they fear what will follow its downfall. (The grocery on my corner in San Francisco is owned by a Christian Syrian from a village outside Damascus. When I asked him what he thought about what was going on in his country, he said, “It’s not like what you see on TV. Assad is a nice guy. He’s trying to do the right thing.”) As Rosen makes clear, Syria’s ruling Alawite minority is the key to Assad’s survival: Absent an outside invasion, the regime will not fall unless the Alawites turn on it. But the Alawites fear reprisals if the Sunni-dominated opposition, some of whose members have threatened to “exterminate the Alawites,” defeats the Assad regime. The fear of a sectarian war, exacerbated by the murky and incoherent nature of the opposition, means that the minorities are unlikely to join the opposition in large numbers.

...

Our national instinct is to come riding to the rescue. It goes against our character to simply sit on our hands. Our sincere, naive and self-centered belief that America can fix everything, and our equally sincere, naive and self-centered belief that moral outrage justifies intervention, is a powerful tide, pulling us toward getting directly involved in Syria’s civil war.

But in the real world, we cannot always come riding to the rescue. Sometimes, we have no choice but to watch tragedy unfold, because anything we do will create an even bigger tragedy.

http://www.salon.com/2012/04/13/dont_arm_syrias_rebels/singleton/

[oberliner]

19. New U.S. help arrives for Syrian rebels as government, extremists gain

GAZIANTEP, Turkey — A U.S.-backed effort to arm the moderate Syrian opposition is finally ramping up along the Turkey-Syria border, but it may come too late to save the rebels from defeats on two fronts, by President Bashar al-Assad’s government and by the extremists seeking to carve out an Islamic state.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/new-us-help-arrives-for-syrian-rebels-as-government-extremists-gain/2014/07/27/d4805a82-43b3-4583-85b5-f51efd6940a4_story.html

Feel free to begin speaking out and protesting if you feel so inclined.

[Douglas Carpenter]

21. when atroticites are being funded by the United States I will

when the U.S. political establishment and media cheerlead atrocities, I will

Hmm, now why is it that people don't believe you when you claim you condemn Israel's actions in the Gaza? I wonder why?

[oberliner]

26. So Americans should only protest atrocities funded by the United States?

That's an interesting approach.

So what's up with all those people around the world who are protesting Israel's actions in Gaza even though the countries they live in provide Israel with no funding?

[Douglas Carpenter]

30. oh it must be because of anti-Semtism!! Yeah, that must be it

When Congress starts talking about no fly zones over Israel and the U.N. Security Council passes crippling sanctions on Israel - then we can talk about whether or not there is a double standard. The first line of responsibility in a democracy is toward that what their government is supporting. I am responsible as an American to some degree for America's policies. I have no culpability for Russia's policies. I have no possibility of influencing that. When western powers use their full weight of military might, wealth and political influence - of course it attracts a lot more attention and it should -

[oberliner]

45. No mention of antisemitism has been made here by me

Why you would introduce that to the discussion I do not know.

My point is that people around the world protest atrocities that are going on regardless of whether or not those atrocities are funded by the government of the country they live in.

Generally speaking, if there is something morally offensive or repugnant going on in the world, people of good conscience do what they can to speak out against it.

Do you disagree with this?

[Douglas Carpenter]

47. I think protesting repugnant activity is something people should do. In a democracy the first

responsibility is to the actions of one's own government.

[oberliner]

48. Agreed

Glad to find some common ground.

[jberryhill]

32. I am not the arbiter of what "Americans should do"

If you would like to understand the motivations of people who are not me, then you will have to ask them.

You are the one equating Netanyahu and Assad here, btw. I agree with you that there are marked similarities, and the US should be supporting neither of these twisted men.

[jberryhill]

22. Okay you made your point

Netanyahu is no different from Assad or the equally dangerous people he is fighting.

Well done. The US should not be backing any of them, and I agree with you.

[Douglas Carpenter]

24. I will second that - Not one Penny for either Assad or Netanyahu!!

[oberliner]

29. Do you support arming the rebels?

$500 million requested by Obama (in addition to the $287 million already provided).

[jberryhill]

33. I answered that up thread already

Suck in the spittle, take a deep breath and ask me a third time.

You will get the same answer from me. I don't support arming anyone.

[oberliner]

34. Gotcha

I don't need to ask a third time.

So - do you think any action ought to be taken to try to prevent Obama/Congress from providing that funding?

[jberryhill]

36. I realize that my opinions on Syria are of great importance to you

However, neither side in that conflict goes on at great length about how the US is their ally, while calling our top foreign representative a terrorist.

I expect that both sides of that conflict have no great love for the United States, and neither side pretends to.

[Chathamization]

35. I remember right-wingers making the same argument against the Iraq war protests; "Why aren't you

protesting Hussein? Is it OK for him to do what he's doing?" Nice to see that militarists never change.

[Scootaloo]

58. They seem to miss that protesting these guys is fruitless

Yeah, I'm sure Saddam would care if we protested him. More likely he'd just set a bunch of Turkmen on fire and have Uday chase them through Baghdad with a whip, just to give us something to froth over. Same with Putin (though less extreme) or that al-Baghdadi guy (...probably MORE extreme.) They don't care about Americans protesting, and why would they?

On the other hand, nations we are closely allied with, nations we consider our real friends - Canada, the UK, Israel, Australia, Japan, and maybe Mexico - these are nations we could generally expect to at least mull it over when we protest stuff they do, just as we should consider when they do the same. when you friends tell you "hey! There's a problem!" you should at least pause and confer with them, because they're your friends and they want what's best for you.

[99Forever]

2. Awful stuff.

Remind me again, how much military aid and weapons are being supplied by the American taxpayers to the Syrian military? Thanks for the information, in advance.

[oberliner]

4. $500 million requested by Obama in military aid to the opposition

Obama asks Congress for $500 million to aid Syrian opposition

President Barack Obama asked Congress Thursday for $500 million to train and arm vetted members of the Syrian opposition, as the U.S. struggles for a way to stem a civil war that has also fueled the al-Qaida inspired insurgency in neighboring Iraq.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/obama-asks-congress-500-million-aid-syrian-opposition-article-1.1845550#ixzz39FBnKYea

[99Forever]

13. And how much to the prisoners of Gaza?

[oberliner]

15. The US provides a substantial amount of financial aid to Palestinians

The United States is the leading provider of bilateral development assistance to the Palestinians, having provided $4.2 billion since 1994.

http://www.usaid.gov/west-bank-and-gaza/our-work

[99Forever]

28. Let me rephrase that.

And how much in MILITARY AID has the USA provided to the prisoners of Gaza?

[oberliner]

31. Do you think the US should provide military aid to Gaza?

Talk me through exactly what you are proposing here.

[99Forever]

51. What I'm proposing?

How about we stop financing the killing of innocents by brutal genocidal maniacs completely?

And by that, stop being such a bunch of hypocritical asses?

Weird thinking, right?

[treestar]

7. Pooty Poot solved the chemical weapons crisis

so maybe he can step up here

[Crunchy Frog]

12. You're just bigoted against the Russians

and probably support those Nazis who are running Ukraine.

[oberliner]

16. Oddly neither Russia nor Syria nor Ukraine often get compared to Nazi Germany

Only one country, it seems, invariably draws that comparison in some circles.

[jberryhill]

23. Are you serious?

Those comparisons are made all the time.

You don't hear them because you are a one note Johnny.

[oberliner]

42. On DU?

Maybe you are right - I am prepared to withdraw that claim if evidence suggests otherwise.

[Crunchy Frog]

25. Really?

I saw a whole lot of comparisons of both sides to the Nazis during the several weeks when that conflict was the dominant topic of discussion here. Maybe you didn't notice it because you weren't looking for it.

Tell me, what do you think of the Israeli settlers who throw the "Nazi" epithet at the IDF on those rare occasions when they try to shut down illegal settlements and outposts?

[oberliner]

41. Maybe so

It's possible my observation is inaccurate.

Those comments from the Israeli settlers you mention are disgusting.

[jberryhill]

27. stop lying

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023586419

And to be clear, the US Secretary of State made that comparison with Assad. The Israelis call the US Secretary of State a terrorist.

[oberliner]

40. Not lying - making an observation regarding DU (not John Kerry)

On this website, the comparisons seems primarily used in relation to Israel.

Sorry for not making that clear.

Do you disagree?

[jberryhill]

50. you didn't read that link

But because you are a one note Johnny, you only here the things you want to hear.

The link I provided adopts the Assad/Hitler comparison and was merely the first of many found using "Assad Hitler site: democraticunderground.com"

You can perform the same search in seconds.

Now, you said it doesn't happen. You did not say that from a position of knowledge. Instead, it is a false fact which you invented to bolster an argument of some kind you are trying to make. That is called lying.

While you, as you sit there, are perfectly capable of generating a list, you will take the other stupid rhetorical approach and distinguish the one counterexample to your thesis I provided (and there are also plenty for Putin).

Do and have people made various "Hitler comparisons" on DU in a variety of contexts? Yes they do. It is, as you surely know, a truism of online conversation known as Godwin's Law.

For you to pretend otherwise, or simply not to notice, is not surprising.

[Chathamization]

44. Search DU for Putin/Hitler; some who thought it was fine then are now calling it anti-semitism when

similar comments are made about Israel. Interestingly enough, no one called the comparisons between Russians and Nazis anti-slav bigotry.

[oberliner]

46. Good point

People really need to stop casually throwing the Hitler comparison around unless they really mean it.

I feel the same way about the use of the word "Nazi" which basically now means anybody who is nasty or strict.

In any case, your point is taken, I withdraw my claim and apologize.

[Chathamization]

52. Thanks. Hopefully others will drop this "comparisons to Nazis = antisemitism" nonsense

For what it's worth, I'm also tired of people constantly comparing others to Nazis. I felt that way when people were comparing the Taliban to the Nazis, comparing Saddam to the Nazis, comparing Bush to the Nazis, comparing Iran to the Nazis, comparing the Tea Party to Nazis, comparing Putin to the Nazis, etc. But such comparisons are fairly ubiquitous.

[jberryhill]

55. They arise from the vigilance required by the admonition "Never again"

The Nazis didn't just show up one day and take over Germany. It was a process of dehumanization and mass moral blindness.

People make these comparisons out of a sense of vigilance and alarm when they see "power that can do no wrong" result in mass deprivation of human rights and mass killing.

There is no group of humans which is immune to.this sort of thing. The most dangerous people are those who believe in the utter moral correctness of themselves.

[jberryhill]

53. of course the problem with "Hitler/Nazis comparisons are out of bounds"

Is that establishing that principle as a rule is, in fact, a recipe for repetition of similar atrocities.

To say "Never again" as a universal principal requires vigilance to the creeping dehumanization and justification for mass violence against any group. The exercise of such vigilance requires comparison to the process which led to the atrocities in the first place.

But to enshrine Nazis Germany as "incomparable to anything" is to say that we can discard any lesson humanity learned, since by establishing it as sui generis in the large catalog of human atrocities, it follows that no comparison of any aspect of how it happened is ever going to be valid. In other words, there is nothing to be learned from it, since nothing can ever compare to it.

It is equally dangerous for any people to believe they are somehow immunized and incapable of doing evil. There was nothing "in the water in Germany" which produced the behavior demonstrated by the Nazis. The Germans were and are, homo sapiens like the rest of our species - ALL of whom are susceptible to mass moral blindness. In fact, the ones most susceptible to it are those who believe they are incapable of wrongdoing.

[treestar]

54. No way, that happens all the time

Isn't there even a name for it? Godwin's law, or something? Israel is a country that gets to defend itself, etc. and other countries get that comparison. So it's claiming special status as a country. Though I could see why the nation of Israel might deserve an exception. But people should be able to make the comparison as they might any other country.

[Crunchy Frog]

9. Absolutely horrific.

And as you probably won't get anyone posting in defense of these actions, I suspect this will not be a very long thread, and that DU will not fill up with other threads about it.

Very different from situations in which opinion here is polarized, such as Russia/Ukraine. Hence the reason there were huge quantities of very long thread on that conflict, despite it's being trivial in comparison with the situation in Syria.

[oberliner]

11. Do you support arming the rebels as Obama is proposing?

That's the (potentially) controversial part, I would think.

[Crunchy Frog]

17. I haven't formulated a position on that yet.

I don't know enough about the complexities of the conflict or the potential ramifications of such a policy. I'm willing to look at opinions from all sides and try to learn more.

[oberliner]

38. Fair enough

I'm trying to learn more as well.

[cpwm17]

18. Barrel bombs are disgusting

Last edited Sat Aug 2, 2014, 12:00 PM - Edit history (1)

Those that support mass-murder as policy are the enemies of mankind.

[Cayenne]

57. War is mass murder defined

[JustAnotherGen]

37. Shame on them

And no I do not support financing either side in an armed conflict. That money would be better spent on the prescription gap our seniors experience, science and math expansion in our schools, providing assistance for the long term unemployed, and investing in green/ energy efficient environmentally friendly infrastructure renewal.

But what do I know? I'm only a pacifist who believes you can conquer disagreement with reason and giving people incentive to live a peaceful life.

I also watched my country ignore the janjaweed slaughter black Muslims and do nothing a few years ago. And now I'm supposed to care about inter religious wars when intra religious wars get ignored?

There are no solutions I guess . . .

[pampango]

43. Bombing civilian areas is a war crime regardless of what government is doing it. Doesn't matter

whether it is done by our government or a government we support or a government we do not support. The governments in Israel, Syria and Ukraine (among many others - and the opponents of these governments) are guilty of attacking civilian neighborhoods.

What can we (the people) or our government do about it? Sometimes - nothing, sometimes - something, but the least we can do is to not ignore it when it happens.

[jberryhill]

56. "But, Mom, all the other kids on the block are doing it"

The mother of all failed moral arguments.