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malaise

(268,930 posts)
Sat Aug 2, 2014, 09:49 PM Aug 2014

See - another lie debunked -Soldier believed captured by Hamas killed in action, says Israeli army

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/02/israel-rejects-talks-gaza-attacks-end
<snip>

Israel has said they have scientific evidence that Hadar Goldin, the soldier feared abducted by Hamas on Friday in an ambush that shattered a humanitarian ceasefire, was killed in action during the attack.

The announcement, by Israel's chief military rabbi, came just hours after prime minister Binyamin Netanyahu indicated that Israel's military operation was coming to an end.
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How many more Palestinians were killed based on this lie?
24 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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See - another lie debunked -Soldier believed captured by Hamas killed in action, says Israeli army (Original Post) malaise Aug 2014 OP
The announcement was, you will note, made by the Israeli military. And a "fear" is not a "lie." WinkyDink Aug 2014 #1
Actually Hamas said just that very early this morning malaise Aug 2014 #2
This lie was used to justify 150 killed yesterday. JaneyVee Aug 2014 #3
Correct and this lie was also used to try to stop the condemnation of the atrocities malaise Aug 2014 #5
early on hamas lied about capturing some soldiers JI7 Aug 2014 #4
Early on the Israeli leader lied about the deaths of three young Israelis malaise Aug 2014 #6
English lesson. Igel Aug 2014 #7
Ahhhh...the "re-frame." When losing a point...reframe it to your advantage. We all need English kelliekat44 Aug 2014 #14
Okay... catnhatnh Aug 2014 #24
They even had Pres Obama calling out Hamas over the "captured" soldier DJ13 Aug 2014 #8
Disappointing that Obama tired to make hay out of and condemning Palestine for the soldier's lumpy Aug 2014 #9
These are bold faced lies which they dont even care about being immediately debunked xiamiam Aug 2014 #10
Also it also appears that it was Israel that violated the cease-fire. cpwm17 Aug 2014 #11
According to Mondoweiss oberliner Aug 2014 #13
Mondoweiss is probably correct cpwm17 Aug 2014 #17
They thought he was captured and have since discovered he was killed oberliner Aug 2014 #12
It's a lie to say they thought he was "captured." They really knew better or why would they bomb kelliekat44 Aug 2014 #16
They seem to make a lot of 'mistakes'. And extremely costly, at least for sabrina 1 Aug 2014 #20
Kicked and recommended. Uncle Joe Aug 2014 #15
K&R DeSwiss Aug 2014 #18
I think more than 100 were killed as a result of that latest lie. sabrina 1 Aug 2014 #19
Whether he was captured or killed by Hamas is irrelevant, the treaty was broken either way rudolph the red Aug 2014 #21
Not if he was killed before the treaty. Which appears to be the case. sabrina 1 Aug 2014 #23
The Jesuitical response: It's not just for Catholics anymore! Tom Ripley Aug 2014 #22

malaise

(268,930 posts)
2. Actually Hamas said just that very early this morning
Sat Aug 2, 2014, 09:53 PM
Aug 2014

They said there was no kidnapping and he was killed in action by an Israeli missile?

Why did they and their war criminal leader spread the lie? Same crap with the killing of those three innocent young Israelis.

malaise

(268,930 posts)
5. Correct and this lie was also used to try to stop the condemnation of the atrocities
Sat Aug 2, 2014, 10:03 PM
Aug 2014

against the Palestinian people. This lie even had the US President screaming about the release of the so called kidnapped soldier. Once again they did not fool me.

JI7

(89,247 posts)
4. early on hamas lied about capturing some soldiers
Sat Aug 2, 2014, 09:56 PM
Aug 2014

i don't know why they would lie about that.

but yes, this time they denied it. from what i know hamas would be bragging about it if they did and try to use it to get something they wanted.

malaise

(268,930 posts)
6. Early on the Israeli leader lied about the deaths of three young Israelis
Sat Aug 2, 2014, 10:04 PM
Aug 2014

That was the pretext for this slaughter and collective punishment.

Igel

(35,300 posts)
7. English lesson.
Sat Aug 2, 2014, 10:05 PM
Aug 2014

Primary meaning of "lie": a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth

Primary meaning of "falsehood": a false statement

They overlap in that both indicate falsehood. Some make no distinction. This is a useful one, and typically the meanings merge not because people don't make the distinction but because they don't want to (but often hope that the listener infers that intent is claimed), which reflects prejudgement or ill-will. OR intent can't be present because it's an inanimate object doing the "lying". If a dictionary doesn't include a lot of examples, contexts, and explanations--pocket dictionaries, for instance--then they list them as synonyms. But as I was taught long ago, English has one true synonym, and it's for a species of wort that grows in Northern England. Two adjacent villages had different names for the same species of wort. When the villages merged through population growth, both words were kept but had the same connotations, so people who used such words used either in all the same contexts. (Which is probably to say, "Very rarely," considering most people in larger towns very rarely have the inclination to hold forth on regional varieties of worts.)

Primary meaning of "believe": to have confidence in the truth, the existence, or the reliability of something, although without absolute proof that one is right in doing so.

Notice that to say that somebody believes what he says and is lying is either a self-denying utterance ("You are telling me something you actually believe to be true in order to get me to accept something as true that you actually think is false&quot or you're simply applying ill-will/prejudgement or somehow saying that the belief itself is a lie. (I guess that's stage versus individual level predication, but that's moving past a DU post. Just a tad.)

If the first, it's simple incoherence.

If the second, then there's no point arguing because you've already decided on what the truth is, and facts, meanings, and the like don't matter.

If the third, then it's neutral, but the text isn't very cohesive.

 

kelliekat44

(7,759 posts)
14. Ahhhh...the "re-frame." When losing a point...reframe it to your advantage. We all need English
Sat Aug 2, 2014, 11:54 PM
Aug 2014

lessons at this point because it is so important to be grammatically correct in times of carnage.

lumpy

(13,704 posts)
9. Disappointing that Obama tired to make hay out of and condemning Palestine for the soldier's
Sat Aug 2, 2014, 10:29 PM
Aug 2014

disappearance. I haven't heard him condemn Israel for killing unarmed Palestinians.

xiamiam

(4,906 posts)
10. These are bold faced lies which they dont even care about being immediately debunked
Sat Aug 2, 2014, 11:29 PM
Aug 2014

That is an arrogance which I don't remember. Not just this one, but even the missing plane...All of it, the pretext for this massacre and utter destruction in Gaza. I am stunned that they think we're that stupid.

 

cpwm17

(3,829 posts)
11. Also it also appears that it was Israel that violated the cease-fire.
Sat Aug 2, 2014, 11:48 PM
Aug 2014

with a massacre against nearby Palestinian civilians: http://mondoweiss.net/2014/08/ceasefire-against-evidence.html

The best evidence is that Hamas attacked the invading soldiers before the 08:00 AM cease-fire. Israel then massacred some nearby civilians at 10:00 AM, after the cease-fire (as if massacring civilians is legitimate at any time.) The massacre appears to have been been in retaliation for killing invading soldiers.

According to Shaath, at after 6 AM, Hamas fighters engaged Israeli forces in Rafah. He maintained that it was then — almost two hours before the ceasefire went into effect — that the two Israeli soldiers were killed and the other went missing.

Shaath’s account was supported by dispatches published before the ceasefire went into effect by the official Twitter account of Hamas’s Qassam Brigades military wing. In a tweet published at 7:34 AM on August 1, the Qassam Brigades stated, “At 7 AM a group [of Hamas fighters] clashed with [Israeli] forces east of Rafah and caused many injuries and death to them.”

In a separate tweet published at 6:22 AM on the say day, the Qassam Brigades declared, “At 6:30 AM, a group of the Qassam infiltrated behind enemy lines at east Rafah and bombed a house that the enemy had taken as a stronghold with a Tandem missile after the enemies bombed the whole area.”


Israel has made contradictory claims concerning Hamas' alleged cease-fire violation:

But sources offer starkly conflicting accounts of the incident in question. The Israeli army claimed to Mondoweiss that Lt. Hadar Goldin went missing at 9:30 AM, an hour and a half after the ceasefire was declared. Yet Obama claimed that the attack occurred “minutes after the ceasefire began.” For their part, Qassam reported engaging and killing Israeli soldiers well before 8 AM.

We'll see if more evidence comes out.
 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
13. According to Mondoweiss
Sat Aug 2, 2014, 11:52 PM
Aug 2014

If you go by Mondoweiss, Israel always is in the wrong in every case and Hamas never is.

 

cpwm17

(3,829 posts)
17. Mondoweiss is probably correct
Sun Aug 3, 2014, 12:04 AM
Aug 2014

but since I have no way of knowing for sure, I have avoided creating a new thread with this.

Hamas did have the tweets which would indicate that the attack against the invading soldiers was before the cease-fire ended. Plus I trust Max Blumenthal way more than I'd trust the Israeli government.

Why would anyone trust a government that openly massacres civilians? And one thing we should have learned a long time ago, war mongers lie about almost everything. The default position is that Netanyahu is lying.

 

kelliekat44

(7,759 posts)
16. It's a lie to say they thought he was "captured." They really knew better or why would they bomb
Sat Aug 2, 2014, 11:57 PM
Aug 2014

to hell the places they "thought" he might be? And if he is dead, was he killed by Israeli bombing and all this is a cover to direct attention to "friendly fire" killing of Israeli soldiers?

The disrespect of our President by Netanyahu is rivaled only by the disrespect our own GOP and its supporters have shown to the President. Israel also is not only hypocritical but a bigoted nation as well. I just wish Obama had not given those comments he gave yesterday in support of Israeli actions seeking this supposed "kidnapped" soldier. Those comments were not even necessary. And he had to suspect, based on the deception about the three teenagers "kidnapped," that in all likelihood Israel was lying to us again. He seemed almost in a trance when spewing those words.

But the truth is, our country is as much to blame for Netanyahu's arrogance and deception as anything else. We will not give the support needed to Obama to stand up to the likes of Netanyahu. When leadership members of our Congress applaud Putin over the President, what do we really expect when it comes to Netanyahu?

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
20. They seem to make a lot of 'mistakes'. And extremely costly, at least for
Sun Aug 3, 2014, 01:18 AM
Aug 2014

Palestinians, this one cost over one hundred more lives. If he was killed, he was not kidnapped, I am sorry that yet another life was lost. So on what did they base their false claim? And considering their last 'mistake' which cost nearly 1,500 Palestinian lives and nearly 70 Israeli soldiers' lives, one would think they could wait a few hours to make sure before rushing to kill even more human beings.

It was a lie. The unfortunate soldier was dead, sadly, not kidnapped. Are they really this incompetent? I've always heard they are the best fighting force in the world. I have to say I am not impressed at all.

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