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Sun Aug 3, 2014, 12:00 PM

 

Revealed: how Israel offered to sell South Africa nuclear weapons/GuardianUK

"Ally"? Riiiiight.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/may/23/israel-south-africa-nuclear-weapons



Secret South African documents reveal that Israel offered to sell nuclear warheads to the apartheid regime, providing the first official documentary evidence of the state's possession of nuclear weapons.

The "top secret" minutes of meetings between senior officials from the two countries in 1975 show that South Africa's defence minister, PW Botha, asked for the warheads and Shimon Peres, then Israel's defence minister and now its president, responded by offering them "in three sizes". The two men also signed a broad-ranging agreement governing military ties between the two countries that included a clause declaring that "the very existence of this agreement" was to remain secret.

The documents, uncovered by an American academic, Sasha Polakow-Suransky, in research for a book on the close relationship between the two countries, provide evidence that Israel has nuclear weapons despite its policy of "ambiguity" in neither confirming nor denying their existence.

The Israeli authorities tried to stop South Africa's post-apartheid government declassifying the documents at Polakow-Suransky's request and the revelations will be an embarrassment, particularly as this week's nuclear non-proliferation talks in New York focus on the Middle East.

44 replies, 1962 views

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Arrow 44 replies Author Time Post
Reply Revealed: how Israel offered to sell South Africa nuclear weapons/GuardianUK (Original post)
Tierra_y_Libertad Aug 2014 OP
Agnosticsherbet Aug 2014 #1
Fred Sanders Aug 2014 #2
Lurks Often Aug 2014 #4
Agnosticsherbet Aug 2014 #7
Lurks Often Aug 2014 #11
Agnosticsherbet Aug 2014 #13
Lurks Often Aug 2014 #15
MohRokTah Aug 2014 #8
Lurks Often Aug 2014 #12
MohRokTah Aug 2014 #16
Lurks Often Aug 2014 #17
MohRokTah Aug 2014 #18
Lurks Often Aug 2014 #19
kelliekat44 Aug 2014 #26
Purveyor Aug 2014 #28
TeeYiYi Aug 2014 #42
Lurks Often Aug 2014 #44
Lancero Aug 2014 #21
Lurks Often Aug 2014 #3
malaise Aug 2014 #5
Tierra_y_Libertad Aug 2014 #6
aint_no_life_nowhere Aug 2014 #9
Lurks Often Aug 2014 #14
Aerows Aug 2014 #32
Lurks Often Aug 2014 #34
Aerows Aug 2014 #35
Lurks Often Aug 2014 #36
Aerows Aug 2014 #37
Lurks Often Aug 2014 #38
Aerows Aug 2014 #39
Lurks Often Aug 2014 #41
Aerows Aug 2014 #43
Comrade Grumpy Aug 2014 #10
ThoughtCriminal Aug 2014 #22
Sen. Walter Sobchak Aug 2014 #23
Wolf Frankula Aug 2014 #33
mwrguy Aug 2014 #20
Lurks Often Aug 2014 #24
mwrguy Aug 2014 #30
Lurks Often Aug 2014 #31
kelliekat44 Aug 2014 #25
Tierra_y_Libertad Aug 2014 #27
Purveyor Aug 2014 #29
dixiegrrrrl Aug 2014 #40

Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Original post)

Sun Aug 3, 2014, 12:10 PM

1. Now that there is evidence, they need to declare them and

follow international treaties.

This effectively makes any negotiations with Iran concerning nuclear non-proliferation impossible.

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Response to Agnosticsherbet (Reply #1)

Sun Aug 3, 2014, 12:14 PM

2. Because supporting apartheid has always been part of the nations fibre.

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Response to Agnosticsherbet (Reply #1)

Sun Aug 3, 2014, 12:21 PM

4. Israel never signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty

 

so how exactly do you plan on getting Israel to cooperate? Besides everybody knows that Israel has nuclear weapons, it's been known for decades, even if Israel refuses to confirm or deny it.

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Response to Lurks Often (Reply #4)

Sun Aug 3, 2014, 12:27 PM

7. Knowing they have them and proving they have them were two different things.

It is now provable.

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Response to Agnosticsherbet (Reply #7)

Sun Aug 3, 2014, 12:36 PM

11. Again, Israel did not sign the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty

 

and is not subject to it.

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Response to Lurks Often (Reply #11)

Sun Aug 3, 2014, 12:40 PM

13. Then it is up to nations to use economic sanctions to convince Israel that

its stance on nuclear weapons is unacceptable.

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Response to Agnosticsherbet (Reply #13)

Sun Aug 3, 2014, 12:42 PM

15. And if you think that will ever happen, you are shockingly naive.

 

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Response to Lurks Often (Reply #4)

Sun Aug 3, 2014, 12:28 PM

8. Israel must now be isolated by all nations of the world until such a time as they sign the NNPT.

 

There is no other option.

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #8)

Sun Aug 3, 2014, 12:37 PM

12. Never going to happen

 

Do you have any real world solutions?

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Response to Lurks Often (Reply #12)

Sun Aug 3, 2014, 12:42 PM

16. Then there is no dealing with Iran.

 

Iran has every right to develop nuclear weapons now.

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #16)

Sun Aug 3, 2014, 12:45 PM

17. Iran signed the treaty

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_the_Non-Proliferation_of_Nuclear_Weapons

There are 4 countries that have nuclear weapons that have not signed the Treaty: Isreal, India, Pakistan & North Korea.

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Response to Lurks Often (Reply #17)

Sun Aug 3, 2014, 12:47 PM

18. They can pull a Bush and rescind the treaty. eom

 

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #18)

Sun Aug 3, 2014, 12:52 PM

19. Which Iran will probably do

 

Iran is not exactly a country particularly susceptible to international pressure

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Response to Lurks Often (Reply #17)

Sun Aug 3, 2014, 04:51 PM

26. And please mention that the only state sanctioned on the list is N. Korea. nt

 

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Response to Lurks Often (Reply #17)

Sun Aug 3, 2014, 04:58 PM

28. And Iran is comply with it in total. eom

 

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Response to Lurks Often (Reply #17)

Sun Aug 3, 2014, 07:49 PM

42. Suggesting that...

...Iran is more trustworthy than Israel. That's a list that I wouldn't think Israel would want to be on. Look at the company they're keeping; Pakistan and North Korea...

TYY

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Response to TeeYiYi (Reply #42)

Sun Aug 3, 2014, 07:51 PM

44. Don't forget India n/t

 

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #8)

Sun Aug 3, 2014, 01:07 PM

21. Israel might decide to change its interpretation of the Samson Option.

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Original post)

Sun Aug 3, 2014, 12:20 PM

3. I heard about this over 10 years ago

 

that South Africa had worked with both Israel and Pakistan on developing nuclear weapons and possibly traded some military technology, although not actual equipment. It makes sense since all three countries had one or more hostile countries on their border, did not have a lot of support in the international community and lacked the money, people and resources to be able to be assured of a victory in a major war by just relying on conventional weapons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapons_and_Israel

It's interesting to see the involvement of France, England and Argentina in the early stages of Israel's nuclear program

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Original post)

Sun Aug 3, 2014, 12:26 PM

5. The rogue states of the planet

This was well know but well ignored as well.

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Response to malaise (Reply #5)

Sun Aug 3, 2014, 12:27 PM

6. Yep. I remembered it, and looked it up, due to the "our ally" meme here.

 

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Original post)

Sun Aug 3, 2014, 12:31 PM

9. The fact that Bibi Netanyahu has a nuclear football that probably follows him around

like the American President makes me feel a bit uneasy. I don't think he's mentally unstable but I think there's no limit to what he would do if he felt that Israel was cornered, told to stand down militarily, and if the UN and U.S. tried to install an arms embargo on the entire region some time in the future.

The French in the 1950s gave Israel their first nuclear research reactors and worked closely with Israel in giving them all their data from nuclear tests in French Polynesia. Of course Israel has the bomb and has had it for quite awhile.

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Response to aint_no_life_nowhere (Reply #9)

Sun Aug 3, 2014, 12:41 PM

14. If any Israeli Prime Minister felt the existence of Israel was at stake

 

and he or she had no other options, then yes, there are going to be mushroom clouds over a bunch of cities and maybe not just Middle Eastern cities depending who Israel feels is the country most responsible for it's imminent destruction.

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Response to Lurks Often (Reply #14)

Sun Aug 3, 2014, 06:27 PM

32. "mushroom clouds over a bunch of cities and maybe not just Middle Eastern cities"

 

What a chilling statement. Frankly, statements like these make it sound like some of Israel's supporters are as nutty as the people they claim are all terrorists.

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Response to Aerows (Reply #32)

Sun Aug 3, 2014, 06:47 PM

34. Best read up on Israel's nuclear capabilities

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jericho_(missile)

The USAF believes that the Jericho-3 has a potential maximum range of 11,500 kilometers (7,145 miles).

To put that in context, the US Minuteman III has a range of approximately 8,100 miles & the Trident II has a range between 4,200-7,000 miles depending on payload.

Can you give me a good reason why Israel would go to the extra expense to build that much range into a nuclear capable missile when all of their potential Arab enemies are all far closer?

My comments were based on that, you don't build that much (potential) range in a nuclear capable missile and spend the extra money to do so without a reason

I've stayed out of most of the Israel/Gaza/Palestine threads, I hardly think I fall into the category of the wild eyed, "nutty" Israel supporters simply because I researched their nuclear capabilities and projected their response to an absolute worst case scenario.

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Response to Lurks Often (Reply #34)

Sun Aug 3, 2014, 06:52 PM

35. Your previous post stands by itself

 

I truly can contribute nothing further than my own previous comment.

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Response to Aerows (Reply #35)

Sun Aug 3, 2014, 06:54 PM

36. So in other words you have nothing useful to contribute

 

other then to insult a fact based post with a possible Israeli response to an absolute worst case scenario?

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Response to Lurks Often (Reply #36)

Sun Aug 3, 2014, 06:56 PM

37. I think you've said enough

 

that further comments from me are not necessary.

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Response to Aerows (Reply #37)

Sun Aug 3, 2014, 07:00 PM

38. Apparently actually discussing things is too much for you

 

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Response to Lurks Often (Reply #38)

Sun Aug 3, 2014, 07:24 PM

39. Veiled threats

 

and provocation aren't a discussion. That is why the entire region is where it is right now.

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Response to Aerows (Reply #39)

Sun Aug 3, 2014, 07:48 PM

41. Thanks for all the laughs you've provided!

 

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Response to Lurks Often (Reply #41)

Sun Aug 3, 2014, 07:50 PM

43. Glad you got something out of the exchange

 

that was positive. Hold on to those laughs.

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Original post)

Sun Aug 3, 2014, 12:33 PM

10. Apartheid states gotta stick together. Gee, just think....

 

...If Botha had the bomb, maybe the Afrikaners would still be in power.

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Response to Comrade Grumpy (Reply #10)

Sun Aug 3, 2014, 03:18 PM

22. They did have them

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Response to ThoughtCriminal (Reply #22)

Sun Aug 3, 2014, 04:14 PM

23. It was all sort of theoretical

 

Since come the time the South Africans had the bomb their 1950's vintage British bombers just weren't combat ready in any credible number.

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Response to ThoughtCriminal (Reply #22)

Sun Aug 3, 2014, 06:31 PM

33. There was a Decision by The Ministry of Defence That Nuclear Weapons

weren't useful in South Africa's situation. South Africa could defeat any of its neighbors or combination of it's neighbors, the threat was internal. Hitting say, Soweto with a nuke would damage the rest of Johannesburg. Radiation doesn't respect borders or boundaries.

Wolf

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Original post)

Sun Aug 3, 2014, 01:00 PM

20. Israel should be treated like North Korea

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Response to mwrguy (Reply #20)

Sun Aug 3, 2014, 04:41 PM

24. Sadly I think you are serious

 

more proof that anything you post shouldn't be considered credible or rational.

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Response to Lurks Often (Reply #24)

Sun Aug 3, 2014, 06:11 PM

30. Maybe we should congratulate them for slaughtering women and children, and spreading nukes around

if that works for you.

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Response to mwrguy (Reply #30)

Sun Aug 3, 2014, 06:21 PM

31. Find one post of mine that says that

 

and trying coming up with a solution that bears some resemblance to reality if you don't like being criticized.

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Original post)

Sun Aug 3, 2014, 04:49 PM

25. We knew about this before...didn't we? I did. nt

 

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Response to kelliekat44 (Reply #25)

Sun Aug 3, 2014, 04:55 PM

27. Yes. I remembered it and posted this in the face of the "Our greatest ally in the ME" meme.

 

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Response to kelliekat44 (Reply #25)

Sun Aug 3, 2014, 05:02 PM

29. Reminders never hurt just as my tag line references israel cheerleading for

 

the US invasion of Iraq, the one event that split the ME wide open.

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Original post)

Sun Aug 3, 2014, 07:40 PM

40. Oh my....

Interesting find.

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